A Better Way

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Originally Posted by catherine

This, and Alan's comment about refrigerators in the gift economy, is like saying in 1960 how could we ever walk on the moon.

We started with the space program by defining the values that were important to us and then we hired the engineers.

The economic system we have and the values that drive it have bankrupted our natural resources, handcuffed us to soul-sucking jobs, and dismantled our sense of community.

So, let's tinker with that model a bit and see if we can get back some of the things we've lost along the way.

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I’m inclined to agree with Alan. It’s hard to see how a system of “you give what you want and I’ll give what I want” will somehow provide all the coronary bypasses, interstate highways and attack submarines we need. We started the space program by soliciting bids from corporations who had previously built up the needed expertise in the pursuit of profit.

I think maybe people are romanticizing “things we lost along the way” and underestimating the benefits of economic competition.

A new cutting-edge semiconductor fabrication facility can run $15-$20 billion dollars, and require the coordinated efforts of large numbers of highly-skilled scientists, engineers and technicians.

I think we won't be seeing many next-generation iPhones in a gift economy.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

I’m inclined to agree with Alan. It’s hard to see how a system of “you give what you want and I’ll give what I want” will somehow provide all the coronary bypasses, interstate highways and attack submarines we need. We started the space program by soliciting bids from corporations who had previously built up the needed expertise in the pursuit of profit.

I think maybe people are romanticizing “things we lost along the way” and underestimating the benefits of economic competition.

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Originally Posted by bae

A new cutting-edge semiconductor fabrication facility can run $15-$20 billion dollars, and require the coordinated efforts of large numbers of highly-skilled scientists, engineers and technicians.

I think we won't be seeing many next-generation iPhones in a gift economy.

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It's interesting that you all seem to present opposition by assuming that everything that exists now will somehow be gone. Again, capitalism, as it exists today, did not develop by immediate "declaration". What is happening on a very small scale in the OP is viewed by me (speaking only for myself) as a start to a possible, new, better and, yes, different future beyond the capitalistic system that CURRENTLY exists today. Nobody is going to declare "gift economy - give up any and all thoughts of progress in technology or anywhere else".

I always think of how barter economies break down so quickly. Great experiments with lots of enthusiasm going forward. But in the end there’s an over supply of hand crocheted items, music lessons, perennial plants, and essential oils.

And a great dearth of plumbing services, Physician treatment options, and masonry service and lumber products.

This is not even addressing the need in these economies for automobiles, microwave ovens and iPhones.

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Originally Posted by bae

A new cutting-edge semiconductor fabrication facility can run $15-$20 billion dollars, and require the coordinated efforts of large numbers of highly-skilled scientists, engineers and technicians.

I think we won't be seeing many next-generation iPhones in a gift economy.

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I think there's a reason Imagine is one of my favorite songs...

Of course, my Philosophy of Crisis professor used to mock Imagine by saying "Imagine no possessions. It's easy if you're rich." I get that, but I also enjoy challenging the status quo. Would life be SO much worse without the latest generation iPhone? Could we still have complex manufacturing with improved systems like worker co-ops or reduced ratios between the highest and lowest paid workers, a la Dan Price (with the benefit of vastly improved morale and loyalty)? Can we grow The Commons?

So many questions.

Sidebar note: I did happen to recall one situation when the "selfish" gene was apparent in my family, and I never got to the bottom of it. We had 6 people in the household. Every now and then, DH would bring home a dozen donuts from Dunkin' Donuts. Anyone can do the math: 12/6=2. Each member of the family gets 2 donuts, right? Well sure as anything, someone would go to get their second donut and the box would be empty. The victim would yell all night long, but no one would 'fess up. This happened more than once. Interestingly none of us felt compelled to stash our two as soon as the box came in. We always expected honesty from the others, and frankly, we were sometimes disappointed. Yet hope springs eternal.

catherine, have you every read The Dispossessed by Ursula K Le Guin? Very relatable to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by happystuff

catherine, have you every read The Dispossessed by Ursula K Le Guin? Very relatable to this discussion.

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I just looked it up and it looks really interesting! I feel I have an anarchist inside me--there are so many shades of anarchism, and I've always admired Christian anarchists Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin. Maybe I could say I at least partially identify as a Christian anarchist with a pinch of anarcho-primitivsm. So, what candidate do I vote for in November?

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Originally Posted by catherine

I just looked it up and it looks really interesting! I feel I have an anarchist inside me--there are so many shades of anarchism, and I've always admired Christian anarchists Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin. Maybe I could say I at least partially identify as a Christian anarchist with a pinch of anarcho-primitivsm. So, what candidate do I vote for in November?

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Whichever one you want! ;)

If you really want to see what anarchy looks like, you need only turn on your television.

Gifts are voluntary by definition. There is nothing currently stopping Jeff Bezos from sharing his wealth equally across his work force, yet he does not. I think the idea of the entire world running on a gift economy is a pleasant fantasy, much like peace on earth. Maybe it would work if there were no humans, and dogs were running the show.