I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I've been paying my own way since I started earning money. Sometimes we split the check, sometimes we take turns. I never liked feeling "less than" or like a gold digger, or like I owed somebody something, so it works out. I don't know why everyone doesn't do it in this modern age, unless there's a huge discrepancy in earnings.
She makes about 50% more than I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
When I visited my college friend in a very affluent community last May, as nice as it was, I remember being so thankful that I was not married to her husband who earned the money for the three homes and boats and trips and whatever else they had. I would feel so imprisoned in a relationship like that.. it wasn't just the money thing, it was his patriarchal attitude, and his expectation that she would carry out his social obligations, and I always wonder exactly how much say she has in the relationship. "God bless the child that's got his own" has always been one of my favorite lyrics.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
Devil's advocate: Maybe she knowingly gave up her "say" in order to have a cushy life. Also, is it possible that her "work" is carrying out his social obligations and such?Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
You really need to compare P & L statements to get a good picture of where you stand in your relationship, you can't just go by income.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
I should google P & L Statement, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I don't want a boss that I can't leave very easily. I'll take freedom of poverty over the indentured servitude of that kind of marriage.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
So for most of our married lives dh and I have been a one earner couple. When that earner was me, we lived below the poverty line. Fairly comfortably really. We had two children during that time. On purpose. Otoh, dh makes really good money. And sometimes I have to go to crappy social activities because of it. I had a conversation with dd that went like this recently:
Me - I'm sick of laundry.
dd- I'm sick of autocad
me I don't get paid to do laundry
dd- you get paid a hell of a lot more than I make doing autocad.
Me - I prefer to get paid for other things.
dd- I'm hanging up now.
I've actually been working part time for the last seven years. Recently we've found we have more disposable income, so we changed from "all the money goes in one pot, savings first, bills next, can I buy this? Last" to - he puts away the savings and pays the bills - the leftovers are his to direct, and I pay for farm expenses and stuff/activities I want. (he still buys my needed clothing, but not wanted clothing). I loved shopping for Christmas presents with my own money and I love feeling like I can buy him a present or take him out and it's not just me choosing how to spend "our" money. Equally, I appreciate it more now when he takes me out to dinner or buys me a gift - it's not him deciding what to do with our money and I'm not second guessing or wondering if we can afford it. The bad part is I think I spend more money now that I have some that's all "mine"
You're tough!Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
catherine may be tough, but I think she is on the right track.
I did the stay-at-home spouse thing for a while back when I was married and enjoyed it, my husband not being a patriarchal jerk. However, he did turn out to be a cheater and I had to scramble for a bit to get back on my feet and becoming completely self-sufficient once he was gone. While I was happy being at home (being the homebody that I am), I don't think I'd do it again. You really have to be able to trust the other person to have both of your best interests at heart and I just don't have that sort of trust anymore after that experience.
While I do think there's a time for pricey dates when a man can play the part of the gentleman, I don't think they are necessary most of the time, and then should be up to the person who is doing the paying as to whether he/she wants to go on that type of date. It shouldn't be something expected by either party as a regular thing, especially once it's past first-date status and the couple feels more comfortable with each other and things are less formal.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I found it extremely hard to meet a Match date and have him pay, when I knew flat out I would not be seeing him again, if I was on the fence or if he seemed perfect. So I always offered. Finally, a man I dated for a short time, actually got angry for me always trying to pay half, he said that is his role, I'm making him feel less like a man, blah, blah, blah, he was drunk so some really nice comments about me trying to "make his d*** shrivel up, etc" were made loudly.
So then I started paying more attention to body language and "type" before offering. It's stupid posturing, I don't like feeling indebted to someone I don't know and what does his paying for the whole night out or quite a few nights out "mean" to him? I felt like if I paid, we were on equal footing. With men much more wealthy than I, I was given the menu with no prices on it, so I did not dare offer. My friends could not understand why I would turn down second dates from such men. I want to be on semi-equal footing in a relationship. I did not want to go on dates so fancy, I had to keep going to the Talbot's outlet to find $200 dresses for $10 so I wasn't wearing the same thing all the time. They were perfectly nice, intelligent, it was totally me, that is not the life I wanted for myself if it went long term. One was a cardiologist I had often spoken to through work, and realized when I learned his last name on Match who exactly he was. Nothing "wrong" with him, we just did not share the same values about money and I in no way wanted to be a cardiologist's wife. Especially after hearing how things went with the first Mrs. Cardiologist. (in hind sight, FAIL, he would've recognized in two seconds that I have POTs and would've saved me more than 6 months of trying to find this out and would have the money to send me to NYC or Boston to see the best neuro available, lmao)
When married, I did go part time for a short time. I liked it being home with the kids, I did not like at all feeling financially inferior to my ex-husband, even though he did make more than me when we were both FT. IDK anyone who felt this way when they were PT, is that really such a crazy feeling? I was raised by a dad who spoke often about finances, so this is not just an issue because I am a feminist, that you pull your full weight and be prepared to be 100% independent should a marriage fail. Ex "said" (how nice of him to give me permission) I could stay home full time. No part of me would ever let me do that, no matter how much I loved a husband or obviously, my kids, i could never do that; he could leave, one of us could be ill, etc. I did not want him to be able to hold me "hostage", unable to get a job in my field because I had not been working for years.
The very day I realized staying would be very bad, I called and my boss said there were FTEs available for me to come back FT as soon as I was ready. My lawyer thought I was crazy, I did not have to go back FT and if I did, I would lose alimony. Unless, I was living on the poverty line with 2 kids, I would never take that man's money as alimony.
when I dated the guy I dated for 7 yrs, we were more equally suited, he paid for a lot in the beginning. He started to accept my offers maybe 1/3 of the time. He made more so he tended to pick up the bigger tabs. But there was no feeling of what I described above. Interestingly, it took me a good 5-6 yrs to realize how not on the same page I thought we were about financial planning and saving, he said the right words and he really did think he was doing fine. When dug deeper, saw how often he would just spur of the moment buy a guitar or similar, had an interest only mortgage so he never paid principle and he was allowed to use what he paid in already as a checking account, had stopped contributing to his 401k in his 50s, etc. WTH on the mortgage? You only pay interest and you take what you have paid and use it to pay bills? Yeah, no, I could never live with a man like that either.
It's hard to find someone who you share the same financial goals and values with. I thought I had that with my ex-husband, he was so simple, he had 2 dinner place settings. He lived across the street from work so he ate there, fridge empty, slept in a freaking twin bed in his 40s and was a super saver. But he put it all in cash, stocks scared him, I convinced him about Index funds and we were cruising. But divorce, well, something before the divorce, changed him from being a simple man with few needs into this nutball who made the NYS minimum child support checks feel like a hostage negotiation for years. If someone told me how much unnecessary money he would spend on lawyers (leading to a bankruptcy), that his children had to have the best possible (DD's violin cost 2/3 of my car and he gets her violins at cost, she is not going to Juilliard, she plays to stay in the State Orchestra so she can put it on her college apps, even she says the cost was obscene and not necessary) that he would be 60 with zero equity and sleeping on his LR couch, retirement savings long gone. I would never have believed it, never.
And that is exactly what scares me into being the opposite. My lawyer charges 1/3 of his, he likes going to court over stupid things yearly, (we have had the same judge for 11+ yrs) she's onto him and I win but we have wasted more money on stupid stuff. And we were on exact equal footing at the start of proceedings, split the equity in the house, figure out the NYS minimum for child support and that brought his income down a great bit and mine up a great bit so we were almost going to be in the exact same financial boat. He eventually went on to greatly increase his salary. So if he had stopped suing me, he should've been able to do what I did, buy a townhouse, live modestly and continue retirement savings. He went off the rails and I'd actually feel sorry for him except he is a terrible human and is currently suing me, lol.
I will never again co-mingle money with a spouse. Although, aren't you kind of forced to? Their debt is your debt, too if you divorce or he drops dead? Is the key to not marry?
ah, jeez, it was a day of being practically in a trance, why can I not use brevity anymore? SORRY!
I have had a few women on dates tell me they treat OkCupid like a free meal ticket. They told me their friends do it too. Obviously that was a red flag. One woman I met told me she spent a year or two meeting a different guy every Friday and Saturday night. She said she did not have much money but still wanted to go out. So she would let them pay her way and pay for dinner. But she'd -- and these are her words -- "let them go d*wn on me and then I'd bl*w them."
She then told me she even "got two STDs from it."
I was like "check please!" No second date there and certainly no night cap.
Who on earth would admit the sex stuff (possibly she was setting you up for what you would get it return for your investment in the date. But then to cop to two STDs from it? OMG
we should have a thread with a contest of who had the worst date ever, the winner gets Penicillin
Some people are very sex-positive. And some people don't view recreational sex as anything more than that, and aren't shamed by it. Perhaps she was feeling out his point-of-view?Quote:
Originally Posted by freshstart
As to STDs, they happen even with safe/safer sex precautions. (And frankly, I'd assume pretty much everyone out there has herpes of some sort at this point - most of the folks with HSV-2 probably don't even know they have it.) So a frank discussion of one's STD status/history can be an important thing.
Be careful out there. But have fun.
The STDs scared me off. I don't think there is anything wrong with a woman having her fun though.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I was looking for something long term with someone compatible. She was not that.
People get STDs, it is pretty normal. Though I am still going to avoid it like... well... like the plague.
That'd be a heck of a trophy! Penicillin gives me hives -- I am allergic! hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by freshstart
I can see that, in the context of a conversation headed in that direction, or the use of all those apps for people looking for sex that night, people are adults, who cares as long as both parties consent? it's the doing it because she is "paying back" back her dates. That doesn't sound like a positive way to approach sex, that it is a debt she is offering to pay. Unless that gets her off, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I agree about STDs, especially HPV, I swear that's practically universal. High hopes for that vaccine, but does not cover all HPV. Women can at least be screened for it, there is no such thing for men.
Unless I was going to have sex that night, I would not bring up STDs on the first date. But if I had one, I would do so in an appropriate time frame so the man has time to think about it but not in the heat of the moment. And I would ask him in return.
with a likely LTR looming, I do ask the guy if he is willing to get screened and I do as well. But that doesn't mean you are home free because of what cannot be screened. No one has ever said "no" to this.
Not being a party to the conversation, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that it was "payback", especially given the mutually satisfying (hopefully) activities she mentioned. More of a dessert course, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by freshstart
As to screening, I get screened every month or two just because I get exposed to all sorts of icky things at work, you never know. So don't assume an initial screening is the full solution :-(
this is the post: One woman I met told me she spent a year or two meeting a different guy every Friday and Saturday night. She said she did not have much money but still wanted to go out. So she would let them pay her way and pay for dinner. But she'd -- and these are her words -- "let them go d*wn on me and then I'd bl*w them."Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I don't think I am making a ginormous leap here that she is "paying back" because she directly is saying she wanted free dates for dinner and then said what she did. As I said, maybe she gets off on this, too. And maybe this is not where she is coming from. whatev, I concede that I do not what is in that woman's brain.
bae, you know I'm a nurse and we have both seen gross stuff, do you really think I thought I was home free being screened once? I know everything cannot be screened and the guy could show me a clean report but be out banging 3 other girls with no protection.
I am Woody Allen-ish sexually, I would run a body through an autoclave if it wouldn't kill them. He has a great quote that fits me to a T, but of course I cannot remember it.
this is NOT it: Man consists of two parts, his mind and his body, only the body has more fun.
NOT it either but an old favorite: Marriage is the death of hope
someday I will actually remember the funny one
The woman I mentioned was a former sex worker too. She stripped and such on camera for a website. So I don't think that "paying back" the guy was that big of an issue. She talked about it like it was a fun, though risky, pastime.
The two STDs she caught were incurables, though not deadly ones. If she had caught the clap a couples times I may have dated her because that is easily cured. But...
The thing that really rubbed me the wrong way about this woman was when she said: "I know you're looking for a long term relationship. I have known plenty of guys like you. And I still manage to convince them to get into the back seat with me."
It was like she did not take my romantic intentions seriously.
For the record too, I bought her spring roll and bowl of pho since it was a first date. haha
Also for the record, I don't think that all "sex-positive" people are like this. I dated a self-identified "sl*t" in graduate school. We had a lovely long term relationship, very intimate; I look back on it fondly. I certainly appreciated all the "knowledge" she brought to the relationship! lol
I'm just wondering, Ultralite: if you imagine yourself in a long term committed relationship with your current partner, do you see this situation changing? How would you implement change after setting a precedent of being responsible for these expensive dates all through your courtship? Or will you always be 100% responsible for providing a social life that you feel you can't afford, and she can? Do you see the present as a test of your interest in commitment and your interest in her, or will you need to adjust your life forever to fit this new spending pattern? Are you ok with that?
Do I see the situation changing? I dunno... my experience is that I change, while other people do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by kib
Well, my plan at this point is to cut my corners to afford these dates. If she asks for more dates or for me to foot the bill for other such things I will just say: "Hey, we agreed on this. We're sticking to it."
I don't know if this is a test. I am really just trying to get by on a day-by-day basis. Just keep her happy, ya know?
Yep. It's just that keeping people happy can become a rather unfulfilling full time job if you don't set some rules that work for you. I think it's really sweet and admirable that you're trying to compromise, but - at least for me - asking to compromise my financial goals is a lot more sensitive than compromising in a lot of other areas. That, for me, is like asking to compromise what I want to accomplish in life. YMMV. When I said "do you see it changing", I was referring to this demand that you "be the man" in terms of providing all the cash. No doubt you and your relationship will change in many other ways you can't predict.
Oh, I don't know if that would change. It is hard to say for many reasons. Keeping a romantic partner happy is really all I know. That is how all my romantic relationships have gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by kib
From what I gather, she had a couple of exes from when she was young who were unemployed chronically and such. But then she went on to date guys who were well-off, landed gentry.
It's a pretty shallow relationship if you can't express your fundamental position on spending. Eventually, your resentment is going to surface. If she's in it for the long haul, she certainly deserves to know how important money is to you. (It seems only reasonable to me for her to pay her fair share.)
I trade my life for money. So it is really my life that is important to me. It is not like I am some greedy capitalist or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
And I do express my fundamental spending position to her; I have numerous times. It is not like she put duct tape over my mouth.
So we're back to sexual gratification, are we? ;)
Back before i met my husband, I was introduced to someone at a party with the idea that we might hit it off. He talked about his ex-girlfriend and her branching out to embrace her interests, I talked about simplicity and YMOYL and my fascination with living off grid with what I thought was cheerful enthusiasm, it was after all the philosophy behind where my whole life was headed, and after we'd been talking for a while, he scornfully said to me, "so it's all about The Life, isn't it." Ummm ... you say that like focusing on the life I want is a bad thing! Needless to say, we never did get together.
That's what I was thinking, but didn't say. It sounds like Ultralite Angler is resentfully trading his hard-earned money for sexual gratification, then complaining here about it. I get the impression that the relationship they share doesn't amount to much--at least on his part. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) No one wants to live a "simple" life by someone else's standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by kib
The thing is his gf is in a situation that she's going to be alright financially no matter what. She's done well for herself. Sure in her situation she could probably be exceptional, pay off her mortgage quickly etc.. But a 401k, a pension, a house slowly if very slowly being paid off, years of high earnings contributing to social security, I mean she's set no matter what. So I see why she doesn't worry about money ....
Oh, lol, I just meant the thing about the duct tape. I'm not sure I disagree with you ... but I didn't say it! :~)Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
this struck me as very funny, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
Personally, I'd rather have the money than the sex. :)
It's threads like this that make me realize that there are some benefits to being a gay man. All my single friends that want sex don't have to go spend money on dinner for someone (or even themselves). They just log onto one of the geolocation dating apps and find someone nearby and invite them over.Quote:
Originally Posted by bekkilyn
Personally I can think of nothing more horrifying than having a complete stranger show up at my door for sexual activities. Push my envelope, it doesn't apparently flex all that far. :laff:Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
I'm pretty sure straight people can do that too. There's an app for that, after all.
the problem for me is I forget which is for which, not that I use them, but it comes up in conversation and it can be confusing when you don't remember, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
There are, although i would suspect that there's a disproportionate number of men compared to women on them. That would be great for the ladies. Not ideal for the guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0