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JP1: Also I think part of the happiness level while aging is acceptance and that can be difficult. Things like noticing that physically you do not look the same, feel the same, etc. I had a few years before 60 that I struggled with that somewhat but then realized there was no alternative. There was no fountain of youth:~).
this site does not allow me to trim quotes anymore so I'll just comment. Williamsmith, that poor new guy, I hope he honed his skills after all that but I would be gun shy (no pun intended) to ever be in charge of another suicide. Why is shooting out the criminal's tires bad? You stop the car chase and he is not shot (hopefully) in the process.
Teacher Terry- God bless your mom
I'm all for programs for physician assisted suicide such as the plan in place in Oregon. The trouble to me is what if you are at the end stage of the disease (say ALS or dementia) and can no longer communicate your wishes? If I got ALS, I would like to think I would take the med cocktail and not even tell my family, let them think I died in my sleep. But that's a lot sooner than when I would actually like to end it (when I can no longer speak, move, eat). I don't know if I would have the nerve to do it when I'm still feeling pretty well.
there were times someone was actively dying and I suspected the family of giving higher doses of morphine and ativan than were prescribed but these were patients who only had a week or so to live and were totally out of it. I looked the other way and never discussed it. However, one wife was in a problematic marriage with her dying spouse. He was not dying on her time table and she was done. He could still walk and talk and had no desire to kill himself. She gave him a whole bottle of liquid morphine and ativan and he died. The nurse who had him flat out said it was murder, she was laughing about it and cracking jokes. Unbelievable. I did express my feeling to my manager that I wasn't aware we did not one thing when a patient is murdered, but management swept it under the rug. I was ready to make an anonymous tip to the police but I am certain I would've lost my job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
Strange how this thread has become a discussion of suicide.
yeah, how did we get here? Probably something I said, lol
freshstart....on the new guy. It is often the case that someone is in a temporary state of being out of control, either due to drugs, alcohol, mental illness or criminal psychopathy. All it takes is for someone representing a position of authority to show up on the scene and they make their last great final statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by freshstart
There really is not much an average street officer can say. It is more what not to say. I suspect most outcomes are already decided before you even arrive. For whatever reason, this guy had an unlucky streak. He did find his niche. He is the director of computer forensics for western Pennsylvania and as such has had a hand in many important cases. We are still good friends.
Shooting from a moving vehicle is problematic. Shooting at a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle is usually considered not within the range of expertise of the average patrolman and at worst could be reckless endangerment of the general public. However, in the case, the guy knew how to handle a shotgun, all other attempts to get the vehicle stopped had failed, we were in a rural environment, the suspect was shooting at us and in the end it worked out perfectly.
Unfortunately, some zealous administrators decided to make an example and instead what they did was permanently ruin a young officers attitude for the rest of his career. He should have gotten a commendation but instead got reprimanded.
UA,
In a way, this thread has always been about suicide. Just suicide of the Republican Party. I do think that assisted Suicide in the case of the GOP would be widely accepted at this point. It is pretty clear the party needs a big dose of something to put thm out of their misery.
The WAMC is going to have a great big laugh today. Mitt Romney is upset about Donald Trump, well let's be clear.....he was okay with Donald Trump when he endorsed him for grand Puba of the GOP last time. But not so much now.
Now Mitt thinks he has to step in and smack the back of Donald's hand with a ruler and wash his mouth out with soap. I guess Trump has stepped over the bounds of civility with his language and maybe wasn't quick enough to disavow the KKK or smoking and drinking or infidelity or all manner of Latter Day Saints Sins for all we know.
Yes, Mitt, that same fellow that Obama used to wipe up the symbolic floors of all America with.....that Loser of all losers, the inventor of ObamaCare, the captain of Bain Capitol, graduate of the salt of the earth Harvard University, Governor of liberal Massachusetts, and that Mormon.......is going to set things straight.
Well, Mom, pull up your recliner and pass the Budweiser. This one is going to be good.
Mom, did you know that Trump is a phony and a fraud? And that we are just a bunch of suckers? Yeah, he has been taking advantage of us weak minded middleclass people. It has all been a hoax. The guy is a con artist...and we are his victims.
You know how we thought all along that we were just pissed off at the GOP for ripping us off and not doing anything to represent our interests? Well, that's not how it ever was. Here all along it was the GOP establishment guys that are fit to lead.
What else is he saying PA?
Well, believe it or not mom, Trump is not like all the other good and honest guys of the GOP. He is actually dishonest and untrustworthy. Yeah, Trump is more like Putin. Not what we need. We need another George W. Bush.
Mom, you shouldn't fall off your chair laughing......you could get hurt...or spill your beer.
Wow, they don't get it. They think we care who wins the election.
Mom, have you seen the remote control....
....or spill your beer, lol
I am for assisted suicide. I don't blame that young woman for moving to Oregon when she had brain cancer. FS: that is the problem with something like ALS by the time you want to do it you re no longer physically capable or go too soon. Ugh!
For physical illness but not mental illness?Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
PI can be incurable but MI not so much.
You don't think some people are MI terminally? As in being MI is how they will be for life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
I know someone who is 46 years old. He has been deeply depressed since age 17. They gave him meds, therapy of all kinds, put him in hospitals, etc.
His depression has not been alleviated. Each day it has grown a little worse.
This person is a good friend of mine. I see him suffer from this horrible, profound depression.
I'd support and vote for a law that allowed him to exit stage left.
Did you ever see the movie They Shoot Horses, Don't They with Jane Fonda? She was fantastic in that role. I saw it in high school and it shook me up.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
I am not in favor of assisted suicide when it comes to MI, but that movie makes a case for it.
I have a situation in my family where an in-law's first spouse killed themselves after hearing that the in-law was remarrying. And they planned it so the in-law would be the one to find them--and this particular in-law was in their 20s at the time. The ex-spouse had lifelong issues with depression. I agree with Terry that there's too much ambiguity with MI to make someone else responsible for an irreversible decision.
Of course you feel this way. You have not been profoundly mentally ill for decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
Nothing is stopping your friend from killing himself. It is not illegal to do so-I looked it up.
I'm not talking about the legality of killing oneself--I'm talking about making someone else complicit.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
How many of the participants in last nights GOP debate have Mental Illness and would you favor assisted or complicit suicide for any one or more of them? For me, I guess it would depend on their finger size and limits of their flexibility. It is obvious and I think we can all agree that whatever illness has taken over the GOP....it is terminal.
That debate last night was three no-talent-ass-clowns and one understated sociopath.
Terry. Oh, Terry. Think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
The means of suicide are illegal.
Misuse of pills -- illegal!
Shooting a firearm in most situations is illegal.
Jumping off a private or public building is illegal.
And things like drowning yourself in a lake might be illegal too -- illegal to walk on thin ice, illegal to swim here or there, etc.
You seem like a nice person. But your thoughts on doctor-assisted suicide are half-baked at best. And your thoughts on MI are ill-informed. But perhaps most unsettling to me is how you seem to disregard a person's freedom to do whatever they want with their body.
Don't take these constructive criticisms as personal attacks. Because they are not. They are harshly questioning ideas that you hold, ideas you may want to rethink.
Though I suspect you'll simply double-down on them.
Why are her ideas half-baked? If she favors physician-assisted suicide for those who lack the capacity to kill themselves, but in effect says someone who does have that capacity is free to do so himself without placing that terrible burden on others, how is she inconsistent? And if someone indulges in self-slaughter with no accomplices, why quibble over the legality of the act?Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
UA,
State sanctioned suicide would be discriminatory against age, sex and race. Not to mention morally incomprehensible. I'm going to list a few statistics from the CDC that should give you pause from your idealism and allow you to entertain realist thoughts for a moment:
In 2010, over 33% of descedents tested positive for alcohol, almost 24% for antidepressants, and 20% for opiates including heroin and prescription painkillers. So you have a situation where a person could be assisted in their wishes to kill themselves while under the influence of alcohol, antidepressants, heroin or prescription painkillers but they wouldn't be able to drive themselves to see that person without being subject to arrest. Not to mention, their minds are clouded by drugs and but for that influence they would not be wanting to kill themselves.
In 2013, the CDC estimates 9.3 million adults reported they had suicidal thoughts. Those that had serious suicidal thoughts were not spread out equally among all ages. In fact, the younger you are the more of you there are. An estimated 2.7 million people actually made a specific plan to commit suicide. Again the younger you are the more of you are in your group.
This next fact should really cause you logistical nightmares.
In 2013, among students of 9-12 th grades 17% seriously considered committing suicide in the previous 12 months. Females outnumbered males twofold. Almost 14% made a concrete plan. 8% actually attempted suicide.
Males take their lives nearly four times the rate females do. But females are more likely to have thoughts about committing suicide.
Among Native American/Alaskan natives the suicide rate is 1.5 times the national average.
If you are a mixed race......you are two times more likely to have suicidal thoughts than any single race person.
Hispanic students in grades 9-12 are have suicide thoughts consistently higher than white and black students.
Full time college students age 18-22 are less likely to attempt suicide than their counterparts who are not educated.
In 2013, almost half a million people were treated in hospitals for self inflicted injuries connected with attempted suicide.
These stats cry out for compassionate medical intervention not assistance in carrying out misguided, often temporary, intentions to harm oneself.
Back in mid January, I started this thread mostly as a satire or lampooning of the state of affairs of the GOP. The WAMC certainly Has reason to be angry. The GOP in their arrogance has consistently chosen the wrong approach and disregarded the real disease and has been treating symptoms for a long time. Well, now the disease has taken over the party.
Last nights debate was so disgusting in its content, so demeaning to the American people and so bereft of leadership that I can hardly believe it.
Last night Donald Trump's statement about his role as Commander in Chief of the military chilled me. I don't think the man has the temperment to be our President without jeopardizing our very existence.
I cant make fun of the situation anymore. And so I would appreciate if the moderator of this forum would give an opportunity for people to make a reply and then after such brief time as deemed appropriate......lock this thread from further comment.
I am done with it.
[QUOTE=Williamsmith;234024]
Last night Donald Trump's statement about his role as Commander in Chief of the military chilled me. I don't think the man has the temperment to be our President without jeopardizing our very existence.
I cant make fun of the situation anymore.
I have also made a shift over the last weeks on this, it is not a joke. Even if Trump doesn't win the huge support tells me that we still have to deal with his followers. I have a half written long post/FB something that I want to get out. I feel like for years I have sensed some underlying crap in our society and heard a lot of people tell me to not worry about it, let it go, it really isn't a problem, but these things are real. They have been, it just took someone giving people permission to express hate and ignorance to do it. So yeah, I have shifted to something completely different.
Williamsmith, I am very heartened by your realization that Trump is no joke, and poses a very real threat to our nation, to our fellow citizenry, and to the world.
Thank you for reaching this conclusion, and for acting upon it.
Thank you.
I was also chilled by trumps comment regarding the military. And equally stunned at the fact that he was discussing his penis size. I guess we've gone from "speak softly but carry a big stick" to "speak loudly and swing a big dick." No thank you.
I’ll admit to being torn about what to do. We have candidates like Trump or Sanders, who each in his own way wants to blow up what we have in exchange for a gimcrack Caesarism or a revolution to overthrow common sense. On the other hand, we have Mrs. Clinton, who won’t burn the house down, but will infest it with termites for a similar result.
Based on the primaries to date, the Trump supporters comprise about 34% of a party that typically has the allegiance of around 30-40% of the general electorate. Dismissing, for the moment, the Sanders supporters as at worst dangerously naïve, there doesn’t seem to me to be a mortal threat to the Republic (unless you believe it’s possible to die of embarrassment).
The longer-term threat in my mind is whether the Republican Party can continue as an instrument of principled conservatism. The possible outcomes right now, in order of my preference, would be a sound electoral thrashing for Trump on the Ides of March, a brokered convention producing an acceptable candidate, or four years of opposition to Clinton (hoping that Trump won’t trash the party’s down-ballot performance). The most radical alternative would be starting over with a new conservative party.
I stopped any serious consideration of Trump after determining that he is a self-aggrandizing bully, a bigot, an anti-feminist, and of poor veracity and rectitude. His comments last night about the military the questionable activities around Trump University, and his vulgarity were mostly nails in the coffin. The confidential and unreleased comments to the press may indicate that his off the wall may have just been made to get attention.
To his credit, he has displayed more enthusiasm and courage than his opponents. And his confrontational style may have exposed the true nature his opponents, one of which has a ridiculous tax plan with no logical hope of succeeding, and another who wants to engage in a carpet bombing campaign. My take is that they are all con artists. So since we may lock out the discussion, that's the bottom line for me.
Bernie and Hillary are far from perfect, but they are in a whole different category of respectability.
As a lifelong liberal I can say that is a concern of mine. The system works on a balance and if the conservative voters don't have any candidates that are basically ethical and support conservative economics then what is left. I read a fascinating article by an evangelical minister who realized for himself that they were being used by people like Trump to support a platform that was deeply offensive. There are going to be more of those people who cannot in any way consider him but are still conservative. The violence that has been reported in his rallies scares the crap out of me, especially if conservative voters are left with no choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
That is my conundrum in a nutshell. How to advocate for limited government, individual liberty, personal responsibility and the other basic tenets without wading through a sewer to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoe Girl
We may be heading into a period like the fifties and sixties, when there was a battle with elements like the John Birchers and the Ayn Rand acolytes over what it means to be an American Conservative.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
I really didn't know if I was watching the debates or a Jerry Springer re-run last night. And then John Kasich's attempts to redirect policy discussions seemed like a ill-timed PSAs.
I am in awe of Trump's tactics, although I think that they are fairly standard in the Narcissist Playbook.
I missed the recent debate - what did Drumpf say about the military?
When moderator Bret Baier noted that several high-ranking military and intelligence officials said they believed the rank-and-file military would refuse to commit war crimes, per their training to refuse illegal orders, Trump replied, "They won't refuse. They're not going to refuse me. Believe me."Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/03/donald-trump-says-military-wont-refuse-h
Speaking as a veteran, I take this as a bit of an insult.
they should refuse, but doesn't anyone remember abu grihab, PICS PROVE OTHERWISE (for some military members), that they don't always refuse. So trump is calling for war crimes and others are ahistorically claiming the military always refuses to commit them. What a bunch of losers, all of them
No one I know of is making the claim that "the military always refuses to commit them". There are always bad actors and bad situations. When violations occur, the offenders are prosecuted. There are always terrible exceptions, but I happen to agree that in most times at most places, the US military conducts itself honorably.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
Well, dang. That's...frightening. In keeping with the whole demagogue theme though.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
UL: I have 3 graduate degrees in human services with a Ph.D in Psychology so I am well informed on MI. I have spent 25 years working with people with disabilities and many of them had a MI. If someone is really determined to kill themselves I doubt the fact that taking too many pills or shooting themselves is illegal is going to stop them and I have never known someone to be prosecuted for this. Usually suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. People are free to do what they want with their own bodies. In most states you have to do it yourself and can't expect someone to assist you. I am sorry that your friend is in such pain but I don't believe for one minute that if assisted suicide was legal that he would choose that when he has so far chosen to live. There is a reason he is choosing to live. Obviously there is really something wrong with Trump for thinking that he can make decisions-even immoral and illegal ones for other people.
this is the most disturbing thing I've heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Well, I am just a humble fisherman. So I can't claim to know what people -- especially those with MI feel or want. I leave that up to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
But I do know that people ought to be free to choose to do whatever they want with their bodies. I suppose you'd ban anything that can shorten someone's life? Smoking ciggies? Heavy drinking? Dangerous sports? Unprotected sex?
Here is what they failed to teach you in that fancy PhD program:
So what if shooting a gun inside a house (to kill oneself) is illegal -- they will do it anyway? So what if taking pills is illegal? A suicidal person will do it anyway? That is really your PhD level answer here?
"They'll do it anyway! Why have something humane, compassionate, and in accordance with their wishes? Just let them take a bunch of pills and whiskey!"
Come on. You dug yourself into a deep hole here, Doctor. Like I said you would, you doubled down on something you know is wrong.
Actually, my friend tried very hard to kill himself. It did not work. He stays alive now not for any joy associated with life, but because he does not want to put his wife through trauma yet. Though she has tearfully told me that if doctor assisted suicide was legal she'd support his decision to do it.
So quit acting like you know every MI person's problem is temporary. You don't!
I can favor physician assisted suicide for the traditionally terminally ill, I also believe they should be allowed to do it themselves or a family member perform the act for them. In Oregon, it is no small thing to die this way, I forget the exact info but remember at least two docs have to sign off and the person is evaluated psychologically.
I agree that people outside of this rather small group should be able to do what they want, regardless of legality. However, I don't back physician assisted suicide for the mentally ill or family members doing it. I believe in mobile crisis intervention, 72 hr psych holds for the suicidal and affordable, accessible psych care, especially for those who have it long term. I believe in prevention but if someone is determined, even after good intervention, well then, that's their choice. I have seen terminally ill depressed patients ready to end it all, we do a suicide contract, get meds on board immediately, therapy and crisis intervention, make sure painful symptoms are managed and 99% of the time, once all is in place, they no longer want to kill themselves. If we did this for non-terminal patients as well, I believe suicide would be much less prevalent.
UL: I didn't say it is always temporary -I said "usually." I could give a shit if people choose to drink themselves to death, take drugs, etc. It is their life and they can choose to live the way they want. your friend is not alive because it is illegal to kill himself-he is choosing life at this point. When you have 25 years experience working with this population and the advanced edcation to do so then you can tell me I am wrong. Right now your opinion is ill informed and ignorant.