Romney & Bain

I do not think the republicans are focused on making the top 1 percent better off. Their economic theory of trickle down does not work. It has not worked every time they have tried it. The last try was Bush's tax cuts but they insist they will work.

Gregg I only wanted to point out there are other things besides the debt that are important. Sorry!

Great post, Jane, though the link didn't work for me. Here is another link I found on the same subject of the economy as a whole being better off under Democrats -

http://www.currydemocrats.org/in_per...democrats.html

Thanks, try2bfrugal. And I fixed the link.

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Originally Posted by Gregg

Free...that is beyond absurd. What gives you any right to assume something so ludicrous about someone else? Just because someone else's priorities don't align exactly with yours you automatically jump to a conclusion in which they don't give a damn about anything beyond that one point in an immensely broad discussion? I didn't expect that from you.

It apparently goes 180* against the liberal code, but just once it might be enlightening to ask a fiscal conservative WHY that form of responsibility is so very important to them. But no, that would require way too much effort beyond just swallowing. Its oh so much easier to wallow in moral superiority if you just walk into the voting booth, check every name with a "D" beside it and assume you just saved every starving baby, rape victim, broke grandma, snail darter and tall tree while sticking it to the puppet masters who would rape and pillage this land until there is nothing left to take. Mmmmmm....cherry today.

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Gregg, first of all, your post would suggest that democrats don't want fiscal responsibility. That is completely absurd! And rather insulting, but I'll let that pass as this seems to be the party lie (line) about democrats. No one needs to ASK why anyone wants fiscal responsibility cause most everyone does want it.
What i would like to ask is, if fiscal responsibility is such a huge part of being conservative, then why are you and all your conservative friends so against health care reform, along with the exceedingly RESPONSIBLE individual mandate, an idea first suggested by the Heritage Foundation and implemented by Romney himself? Why oh why is this very responsible act all of a sudden such a no go for the Oh So fiscally Responsible Republicans? It demands responsibility of everyone, will save the country money in the long run (The CBO has crunched the numbers) and ensures everyone will have at least basic health care. So what gives?
See, sanctimonious outrage about fiscal responsibility kind of sputters out in the face of unfiscally responsible actions. Can't have it both ways. Is the republican party's fiscally responsible 'creds' based in pragmatic reality, or is it simply a catch phrase to reliably trot out every 4 years?

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Originally Posted by Gregg

Luck has very little to do with it. We earned the ability to snuggle our family into whatever environment we choose and we chose here. It wasn't thanks to some gift or a huge advantage starting out or a winning lottery ticket or anything else beyond simple work. And although you will never admit it, anyone could do it. There are no pink elephants or giant mice here. It is simply a nice place with a strong sense of community and family values. We chose to live in a place with low crime, good schools, little discrimination, etc. because we earned it and wanted it and thought it would be best for our family. I've read what you've written about your place. I'm guessing you have options to live somewhere else. Why did you choose to live on a beautiful acreage with ponds and fens and trees and animals when you could have chosen a blighted inner city filled with crime and crippling poverty and all the other "gritty realities" that go with it? What's the crime rate on your farm?

I ask questions because I want to understand the answers. How would you propose that I comprehend the scope of issues I don't deal with every day if I don't talk to people who do? Unlike you, I am not comfortable simply accepting the party line. And I don't really accept stereotypes. Strangely enough I know Democrats that own guns. Our discussion here concluded that even the most highly trained gun owner would have had a difficult time stopping the CO shootings. I don't automatically see a Confederate flag as racist any more than I see a US flag as a symbol of oppression (alot do, you know). And on and on...

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No one lives in Leave it to Beaver land, guy. If you don't think your community has these things, it's because you don't look or want to know. No, I imagine you do live in a nice community, I'm not saying you live in a hotbed of crime. I don't either, but that doesn't mean these things don't exist, nor can I see them. I'm a realist. I know even my lovely community has some gang wanna be's, poverty, racism, etc... And I know the country at large has these things, in some places quite a bit. I don't actually have to fight through a gauntlet of guns and knives to know of these things. And saying because I don't see these things in my community, I'm not going to believe it's such a problem elsewhere, is not exactly accepting the realities of life for many many Americans, our neighbors. And kind of short sighted as well. No, South LA isn't my community, but it absolutely benefits me if these people are educated, and put on a path to success.
I know Ayn Rand is a hero to many on the right, but her greedy, myopic every man for himself philosophy is just that, greedy and myopic. And a recipe for disaster. Oh, sure, some individuals would succeed, but the nation would die. The Nation would fail, kind of how the republican party is failing, as the 'big tent' gets smaller and smaller.
http://gawker.com/5939404/sen-lindse...to-sustain-gop

FWIW The reason I live in the country away from close neighbors is, one, i did want to plant many trees and shrubs and needed the space, not to mention the ponds, but two, and probably the biggest immediate reason, my husband is a musician and HE IS LOUD! :0! I simply didn't want to spend the rest of my life saying shhh.., the neighbors! shhh.. the neighbors!;)

Of course we all want fiscal responsibility. Except maybe the likes of Halliburton/Blackwater/KBR/Xe/Academi/Nom du Jour, proud manufacturer of electrocution showers, who are making billions off our endless unbudgeted wars. Why doesn't anyone audit those treasonous grifters, anyway?

There was a Republican Senator from Wyoming on PBS setting in on a round table discussion. He kept saying Wyoming had all the answers to the nations problems. Burn coal, let business run the nation do away with the EPA. Standard Republican talking points. Shields pointed out that fish were dieing in the great lakes and rivers because of pollution from industry. The senator just said we do not need the EPA today. Well industry would revert back to dumping in our water ways and polluting our water and air without the EPA.

Well Wyoming has a population of 560,000 and California has a population of almost 38 million in about the same size state Wyoming is. There is no comparison to what the needs of both states are. The senator was an MD you would think he would know the harm burning coal for energy does to the human lungs.

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Originally Posted by freein05

Gregg I only wanted to point out there are other things besides the debt that are important. Sorry!

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And on that point we agree. I did say that I didn't want the government to have a hand in much beyond fiscal issues anyway. You pointed out that the government upholds the constitution and gave the necessary muscle to the civil rights movement, which are both things I readily support. Where we disconnected is, I think, the point at which I believe everything the government does is fiscal. It all costs money. I love my tax dollars supporting the SCOTUS, hate it supporting global military operations. Love paying for National Parks, hate subsidizing industrial agriculture. Love providing a safety net for someone in need, hate anyone trying to tell me who I can or can't marry. Etc.

I want us to move forward and I know you do, too. I think that basically we all want to fix everything. Some people think it is worth trying to do everything at all costs and others think we need to prioritize and fix things as we can afford to. The classic whining drum beat of "oh sure, then we will never be able to afford it and nothing will ever change" comes from people seriously lacking imagination and vision. Same is true with all the standard responses at the opposite end of the spectrum. I firmly believe it is possible to bankrupt this country. I firmly believe we are on a course that will do exactly that if we dont' get our spending under control (and significantly reduced). We need better safety nets, but right now the choice isn't whether or not to give all things to all people. The choice is whether or not we are even going to be here in 20 or 30 years to give anything to anyone. If we don't do something different we won't be. Mr. Obama had 3 1/2 years to tackle my priorities and didn't get it done so I'm going to vote to give someone else a chance. If you have other priorities then you have every right to feel, and vote, differently.

Well said, Gregg.

We are in agreement. Gregg what you said above, I as a democrat totally agree with. Why can't the politician do the same?