there is part of this that is lonely huh

it was my son't birthday party and we had a great time! my mom was here starting on Friday night. i work hard but i did get grumpy at one point and i feel bad. then i talked to my best friend and i felt i was a bit harsh and i feel bad as well. Most of it has to to with my simple living and a growing frustration at always feeling at odds with the world, people close to me, etc. just gets hard but that isn't a good reason to be grumpy to perfectly nice people who care for me.

my mom keeps buying me things, she always has, and if she told me she would never buy me clothes again i wold probably be relieved, except that she really really likes it. She even brought a lot of stuff for me to up cycle and i sent at least half of it back, it was high quality and hardly used. it belongs in a resale shop not cut up to be honest. it came a lot from my aunt, i feel like i am supporting my families shopping addictions honestly. i have the perfect number of clothes, i am trying to make my own as they wear out, but my mom found special clothes made out of bamboo fabric and i was not very nice. sigh, i was talking to her about the nun i work with and showed her a picture. she asked if had thought about doing that. i told her no but that in some ways it would make my life choices (simplicity) easier to just be a nun.

then i really got testy with my best friend. She told me that not only did she and her ex (who has no money sense whatsoever) buy a car for 2 teenage boys who just started their first job on the promise that the boys would pay most of it, but that her ex basically took the money as a gift for the car from grandparents and spent it another way. there is part of me that realizes that no matter how many years we have talked simple living when it comes down to it she is like everyone else and more comfortable with a $20K loan for teenage boys to get a car than my style of buying my own car cash for $5K, making repairs, and not having debt. it is ridiculous to feel betrayed, that is much stronger than i actually feel, but really there is something here. this is not the first time, we will have long talks about what she can afford and then she is saying something about the boys playing a season of travel hockey. basically the car, the last 2 dogs, the travel hockey, are all things she got talked into by the ex, but it is also supported more by society than my way of living.

everyone here seems so strong in their conviction, not to be affected by the small ways that we are outside of the group. i feel super strong in many ways but it gets really tiring to explain things or go along or just not have a 'tribe', maybe someone else struggles?

I remember I saw somewhere "Remember that everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about." At least it was something like that. I was thinking maybe it was Kurt Vonnegut. I don't really think so, but I know Kurt Vonnegut said "There's only one rule that I know of, babies—God damn it, you've got to be kind." (I'll admit it, I looked it up to get it exactly right). The world is hard. Generally, even when we are right, (and of course we are), we have to build up the truth of our rightness to convince ourselves that automatically, whether we intend it or not, everyone else is wrong. We have to step back from that. There's are article in Tricycle Magazine this month that is an excerpt from a book of correspondence between Gary Snyder and someone whose name I can't remember. He notes that we really don't have the capacity to harm the universe. The whole thing is far too robust. One planet, one set of life we're familiar with - we might screw that up with our consumption habits, and we have to fight to make things right, not because our actions are effective, particularly, but because it's the right thing to do.

It's hard to remember to deal with people, and to remember that they are fighting their own battles, rather than dealing with ideologies. Is your friend attacking what you are doing? Are people really after you to explain things? I'd try to focus on trying to explain without feeling attacked and trying to listen without being judgmental. Your friend certainly sounds like she's in a bad spot.

But I know where you're coming from. It's hard appearing poor while actually doing better on paper than everyone else, when everyone else appears to be doing much better than you. It can be hard and painful, especially when you throw other family members into the mix. I'm always thinking I should be able to do more for my kids, but borrowing money for them is not in the cards. (Especially not to buy them cars).

(I looked up my original quote, and it seems to have originated with a man named Ian McLaren: It is thought that Maclaren was the original source of the quotation “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle,” now widely misattributed to Plato or Philo of Alexandria. The oldest known instance of this quotation is in the 1897 Christmas edition of The British Weekly: “Be pitiful, for every man is fighting a hard battle.”<sup>[5]

And the version I remember is here.</sup>

very helpful pcooley, i think that knowing it is hard sometimes helps me a lot. i recall all my years in boulder there was a sense of if you are doing it right then you will feel good about it all the time. Not so, not in addressing consumptive patterns or religions when we are honest or even parenting style and many more things. regardless of the religion or spiritual path i tend to connect with people who are honest in having doubts and difficulties now and then. i can usually tell by how they react to the phrase "god/the universe doesn't give you more than you can handle', when you have lived through h** then you just looked pained at those words in general.

i will check out tricycle this month, i am actively working with a buddist nun and that is perfectly in line with this. i called another buddhist friend who was very helpful making the decision to switch to a more positive framework. that does not mean i agree with my friend but it does mean that my job is to be a friend more than to advise and judge. i realize that i have heard from some people that they see my ability to be single as a strength they don't have where i tend to see it as a sign i am not that awesome. so they may be in couples but struggling with that instead of experiencing the bliss i imagine for them. in the meantime i wear the same outfits (but i love them), bring my simple lunch daily, drive a 10 year old care with 270,000 miles on it and actually feel pretty good about it (but i may not go visit my brother for awhile, little awkward)

What kind of person do you ultimately see yourself as? I am guessing thing like treading lightly on the earth, kind, debt free, loving, caring, etc.
what can you do to achieve that goal?

So so decide on you goals and work on them in everyday life. The Bamboo clothing for instance. Perhaps a response like " thank you for being so thoughtful, I will look to see if it will fit into my current wardrobe". Obviously you mom is filling a need of hers to care for you. Let her fill her needs. As you recycle what you don't want you are allowing someone else the opportunity to enjoy it.

The last several years I worked my car became a focus of some people. They could not understand why I would drive a 250,000 mile standard Honda when the car lots were full of shiny new cars at 0% interest. When the car finally died I quit. They were totally flummoxed that we would go down to one car and I would stay home and it would save us a bunch of money. One of my sisters could not believe we would go with one car. But in that time I had a massive garden. DH carpooled so I had the car a couple days a week and I learn to cook. Our expenses got lower and lower. Ten years later my coworkers and siblings are still at it and still don't understand. So it did not matter what they thought. The amount of junk I have kept out of the landfill is enormous. My goals for me, not theirs.

The he only one you can change is yourself. work on that and much will fall into place.

What a great, honest post, Zoe Girl!

Let me respond with two stories for you, based on my asking the same kind of questions at various points in my life.

Story 1: My husband has a friend who is a non-recovering alcoholic. One time I even lent my husband (before he was my husband) 1000 dollars so he could use his paycheck to bail the guy out of jail. (No codependency around here, lol). Anyway. Friend gets 3 Dui's, friend loses license, friend loses job, etc. However, friend's mom dies and friend inherits 1.5 million dollars and now lives a rather pleasant, albeit carless life.
It seems very unfair!!

Yesterday this story occurs to me, and I realize that there is no fairness on this earth, or maybe there is, but it is much, much bigger than my ability to perceive it. I.e. there are all sorts of things going on and all sorts of karma being worked out and all sorts of grace being freely given and I am not God or the judge and that is just the way it is. This friend is always going to have more money than I, even though he is not working a day in his life and never cleaned up his act.

Story 2: This is from 10 years ago, when I went into respiratory failure and awoke 2 weeks later from a coma, paralyzed, but alive. Later that week in the hospital I learned that a little 6 year old girl in my town had arrived at the hospital the same day I did, also in respiratory failure suffered on the playground. The playground, for God's sake. I lived, she died that day. Her family's hearts were broken. My kids had me back. At that point, I was very much still in the other world and not fully back in my body/mind and was rather regularly receiving communications from the divine, and I asked, "Why did this innocent little girl die and I, who have had a full life and have done wrong things etc,--why didn't I die?" And I got a very clear answer from God, that I asking the wrong question, and that there is no why, and that the little girl is fine and that I am fine, too. That as long as I am still in this world, I will have very limited viewpoint and be asking why questions, but that will change when I am in the next (the fuller manifestation of consciousness, if you will.)

I was also reminded that in the Christian scriptures I read, it says, "Judge not, let ye be judged," and I was reminded of that scripture, too, and I think that is what it is talking about, making the judgments that we make that are always based on very limited knowledge and an inability to see the big picture.

So maybe those stories will help, or at least give you another viewpoint on the questions you are asking. I think the workings of karma and grace are beyond my ability to perceive at this point, so perhaps for me, at least, faith is remembering that fact, and going with the idea of what I was told, that "that there is no why, and that the little girl is fine and that I am fine, too." Or, to quote another Christian scripture, that now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. (And I got reminded of that one, too!)

I think it is wonderful that you are asking yourself these questions about how you are perceiving these events. I have to remind myself to do that, to keep looking at my reactions and measuring them against what I know and what I don't know.

yes, i have been doing this a very long time. it is interesting how the same ideas keep recycling. i saw some things on Facebook about dolls that look realistic and remembered there was an alternative barbie company 20 years ago that lasted a few years. i guess there is a company trying this again, my kids are grown so i will wait for the next generation.

i really thought about my mom, i would love to just accept things gratefully. i took a deep breath and was very positive about the 2 large garbage bags of hand me downs and the 2 crockpots of meat. My kids really like that food and took home leftovers. However i have spent 25 years keeping this in check. believe me when i say that if i accepted everything gracefully it would get out of control. i have tried the kind conversations, the firmer conversations and the only things that are effective are humor and direct almost harsh speech. she tries really hard, and sometimes i have literally burst into tears when packages keep showing up at my door and i live in a small space. she does things that don't affect me at all, like bringing 3 cardigans in case it gets cold. that has nothing to do with me. the loads of food she brings on her trips and how she makes sure she brings meat, that also does not affect me. Just when she brings large amounts of clothing for me (good deals she can't pass up), towels that redecorate my bathroom, a 12 pack of paper towels, etc. that i have to get firm. the paper towels would be in the middle of the living room.

i am talking to my friend, i basically feel like sh** about my parenting and life. don't know exactly why, but i generally do.

hi rodeo, thank you, i just saw your post

zg - have you tried something along these lines...

"Mom, I love you very much. I want your later years to be the most comfortable they can be on this earth.
I know you love me. I know you like to show love though gifts.
The best gift you could give me is to go make a deposit in your savings account everytime you feel the urge to purchase something for me.
Please, I beg you, wrap up the savings account deposit receipts and put them in a box with beautiful wrapping paper to give to me.
I love you with all my heart and appreciate all that you do for me"

you could end with..
"The kids love your meat stew (or whatever they love that she makes) please continue to bring that for them"

The Serenity Prayer comes to my mind in regard to your original post.

RodeoSweetHeart - Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me right now.

zg - here's another idea I had...

"Mom, instead of bringing me things that you purchase what if we used that money toward an experience we do together?
For x months, fight the urge to purchase me something and I will come up with 4 fun things in the area and you choose the one you want to do with me"
spa, historical tour, botanical garden, tea at Brown Palace Hotel
"I appreciate how you love me, I just thought it would be fun to switch it up a bit
I promise you I have everything I need and just want to spend good quality time with you doing things you will enjoy.
These choices are things I'd love to do, but can't afford right now & I'd love to do them with you"

How did son's zombie party go?
What zombie things did you do?

oh it was great, i keep on trying to find a way to post a picture of the way we laid out the food but all i can attach is a link, not a photo that i can see.

My sister was able to make it even though her car broke down. that was some stress. My girls both made it with their SO's and 2 of my son's friends came. so about 12 people. i made zombie punch by putting a scoop of sherbet in a cup, then sierra mist that i added green food coloring to, and put red gel frosting around the rim of the cup. i also did deviled eggs that looked like eyeballs. that was fun, my mom made ribs which was appropriate and naturally looks zombi-ish to me.

I think sometimes when it bothers us that other people judge our choices it is because we are not fully content with them - it gives us a chance to think about what it is that bothers us. Simplified example: I love cookies. When I am enjoying cookies and those around me are positive or silent on the subject of cookies, I am very happy with my cookies, but if others comment on weight or nutrition, even their own weight and nutrition. or perhaps an allergy I don't even have, it makes me less happy with the cookies. The cookies themselves are no less good, I like them no less, but I remember that I am overweight and that perhaps i haven't been eating as well as I should and so i enjoy them less. I could give up the cookies, or I could exercise more and eat better so that next time there are cookies I can enjoy them more.

Is there anything abnout your choices that makes you feel deprived compared to those judging them, and how could you address that? I think maybe the mom-gifts thing is more about your relationship with your mom than the gifts - otherwise it would be easy to reject or get rid of the gifts.

As for people in general giving you stuff you don't need. You say you have asked them not to and clearly that isn't working. So I would pass the extra on. If they question where it went, you can always say "As I told you, I have too much in my life already, so I passed some of it on."

I have one person in my life who insists on giving a significant pile of presents every Christmas. If I fail to send a large enough list, she makes things up. So, basically everything new I need or want waits for Christmas. It makes my life cheaper, but less convenient. Last year I failed at list making and just took the extra straight to Goodwill.

I think living out of step with society was harder when my kids were little. Kids always question why they live differently than their friends. Now that they are grown it is easier for me. Some of the things I do they appreciate and even copy and others they have rebelled against. There were probably times I was too extreme, but overall I feel good about the example I set.

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Yesterday this story occurs to me, and I realize that there is no fairness on this earth, or maybe there is, but it is much, much bigger than my ability to perceive it. I.e. there are all sorts of things going on and all sorts of karma being worked out and all sorts of grace being freely given and I am not God or the judge and that is just the way it is. This friend is always going to have more money than I, even though he is not working a day in his life and never cleaned up his act.

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yes there is no fairness and virtue is it's own reward and sometimes the only reward, and maybe the reward is just one doesn't want to carry around unnecessary conscious and subconscious guilt (we're so sure we can repress it. But that may not be the case. Sociopaths exempted of course!). And not carrying it around means greater possibilities for contentment.

Guilt is a tricky one of course as it can be taken way too far unnecessarily if one was raised guilty, but taken less far it is merely a desire to live congruent with oneself, as is possible for one's imperfect self in a very very very flawed society (that most will end up making some compromises to live in). I'm speaking mostly of environmental ethics in this context, of course.

Your living lightly on the earth is more likely to influence others if you just go about doing it quietly and serve as a good example. (Frankly, I think the earth will go along just fine no matter what we do--people, not so much.) It's more important to maintain loving relationships than to always be right, IMO.

Your mother brings hearty protein dishes because she's concerned for you--my mother always told us, if we seemed peckish or depressed, to "have a nice steak." I've never liked steak, but it turns out she was right about its nutrient profile, and I make it a point to eat plenty of red meat, as I tend toward anemia. She's probably not going to change, so just continue to send food gifts home with your kids.

Appreciate your friend for who she is, be supportive as necessary, offer advice if she asks for it, that kind of thing. Simmering resentment is corrosive--to you, not to her. She'll probably be fine.

The important thing here is that your son had a happy birthday, and it sounds like he did.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Your living lightly on the earth is more likely to influence others if you just go about doing it quietly and serve as a good example. (Frankly, I think the earth will go along just fine no matter what we do--people, not so much.)

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some examples are loud and they can make an impression. But obviously guilt tripping lectures probably won't. The earth may survive, but life on earth who knows. How tough are those cockroaches anyway? (Yes I'm known for my optimism /sarc) The universe will survive but whether or not there is other life in it beyond this planet, who knows (I'd tend to think there must be somewhere, but I do not know so.).

Wasteful consumerism far beyond what I would do makes me angry, genuinely angry. But am I perfect?

Suppose one grew up in a family with some atypical nuttiness. One would probably see this for a long time as normal, and one might find it hard to change, and changing it might even feel like one was betraying one's family, etc.. Ok therapy issues or whatever. But what if instead your whole society ... teaches you to be a certain way (wasteful, consumerist, etc.)? Where does one learn to undo that? And even if it's not all of one's current society (who one currently spends time with), it is afterall probably to some degree how one was raised!

I think the point is that I thought we (my friend and I) had a connection in this area, and connections (as an INFJ) are very valuable to me. We have talked over the years on many issues, she is not as interested in the environmental concerns as I am so I have never had the expectation that she would use reusable bags or eat vegetarian or a lot of other things that I feel strongly about. That is fine, she absolutely does not need to do these things or feel bad for it or be influenced by me. However we have talked a lot about financial sustainability and simple living topics. She works in a mortgage industry with the foreclosure department and we have had many conversations when she sees the financial statements of people not paying their mortgage and fighting foreclosure yet they still have large cell phone and cable and car loan bills. So that is where I get disconnected. She did say today when we talked that she thinks it is important for kids to have bills when they start working, the boys will be paying cell phone and car insurance in addition to the car loan. I am just concerned because there is a difference between a bill and a debt.

As for my mom, I may come and blow off steam now and then. She has improved and I am trying to pay more attention to that. I think any more directing her spending would just be confusing. She is not going to stop, that is just not possible, it is internal for her but also heavily culturally supported to be honest. This is what people in her group and with her sisters do. I probably get more upset about this because being upset about the drinking is something I am clear that I have no power over. I will say the functional alcoholism of my parents is a big factor in having these honest conversations, sometimes my mom doesn't remember the conversations or just blows them off. But until she drives impaired or needs help I am out of the realm of acting.

I think underneath it, we want to bond. We want someone to agree with our ideas and behaviors, sympathize with us, make us feel less alone with our problems, admire our fortitude in the face of difficulty. It gets exhausting when the people around us seem to really need this reassurance and we don't agree, we don't precisely sympathize, because we can see how behavior we question has led Our People down the wrong roads. It can also be hurtful - and make us question ourselves - to be on the needing end of this bonding and feel like everyone we speak to has a solution to our problems that doesn't honor our values or acknowledge the difficulty of our lives.

Last week in a disagreeing situation, a political discussion, I said, "well, your pov is definitely more generous than mine!" The person on the other end heard a compliment and a little apology about my attitude (even though I wasn't actually giving one, generosity was the last thing I advocated in this particular situation), and that seemed to soothe her, we moved on to greener pastures.

Finding and giving love and kindness without losing your boundaries can be the hardest thing on earth. Breathe, breathe, breathe. :)

You can only control yourself. Good thing to remember on those kinds of days.

wow, talk about a weird thing here. i went to my meditation group tonight, we are a unique group but i want my anonymity so i won't name us. the facilitator was talking to a friend she hadn't seen in a long time so the conversation was cars and finding the right location when someone got a new car and they didn't recognize it in the parking lot. turns out i was in the company of 2 people who have never had car loans! the one guy has a volvo with 320,00 miles, my subaru has 270,000. so i felt like i had some people with this in common and i felt so much better. at least like when something comes up with my car not everyone is just looking at me frustrated that i haven't just bought a new car already! the facilitator is in the same study group i am so we do 5 am phone calls, study groups, retreats, and support our teacher together. so we do share rides and make arrangements to deliver things to our teacher over an hour away (our teacher is an alms mendicant buddhist nun, she doesn't drive). it was a nice revelation to find out she bought her car for $4k cash.

One of my Honda's almost made it to 200,000. I was so proud of that little car and was planning on keeping it forever. It was almost crushed by an 18 wheeler but saved the life of my husband. Will always remember that car with love. Donated its remains so a small amount served our local public tv channel.

Maybe it would help to think about how your mom and friend are feeling. They undoubtedly feel their choices are valid and may feel a bit frustrated and lonely, too. Try to focus on the things you have in common, not your differences. You're never going to get support for all of your choices and preferences from them, and they will never get it from you. So just appreciate them for their good qualities or whatever it is that ties you together.