Are there any recovering hoarders who might want to share their story? Any hoarders who have conquered the disorder?
Words of wisdom are much appreciated. My parents are both hoarders and could easily be on one of those shows. :(
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Are there any recovering hoarders who might want to share their story? Any hoarders who have conquered the disorder?
Words of wisdom are much appreciated. My parents are both hoarders and could easily be on one of those shows. :(
Ok, um, I'm not sure where to start, I wrote some in the other thread, but mostly I think you have to accept that it is a mental illness kind of like alcoholism and you can't makenybody else get better. You can only help when they are ready.
And ultralight angler, I'm sorry but I cringed a little bit when I read about you and your sister agreeing to donate stuff you were given to keep. Because honesty is really really important. The hoarder has to be honest with themself and other people have to be honest with them. If they catch you lying or tricking them, they won't trust you, the stuff problem actually gets worse, and you can't help them later if they get redy unless you rebuild that trust.
The book that really helped me was " stuff: compulsive hoarding and the meaning of things". Although, I found it helpful and hopeful, and when I recommended it to my cousin to help her understand her dad - who is the worst hoarder in our family, her response was " I read your book and now I'm scared to death."
It's hard too because usually by the time the hoarder is ready to change everyone around them has heard it a thousand times and doesn't believe any more. In fact, the hoarder might have been ready to change many times and failed many times, so why will now be different? And maybe it won't. But you have to approach it from an "ok, try again fail better" stance, because anything else makes the problem worse instead of better.
I'm lucky, because my husband really really loves me. And this poor man who just wants to not have stuff all over the floor actually accepted that he was going to have to start by understanding that it actually made me feel ill to throw out the styrofoam (we can't recycle it here) and we were going to work together to bring as little styrofoam home as we could and he was going to praise me and hug me so I felt better when I threw it away. And I was going to have to accept that the styrofoam was trash and that if I kept it, it didn't make the styrofoam not trash, it made my house the dump.
Yes, that's crazy. Hoarding is crazy. And that's just one example. You have to reprogram your brain. And now I can throw styrofoam away without external positive reinforcement. (but I really wish I could recycle it)
I just realized I could keep rambling for pages. What do you want to know?
Oh, and serial posting but one of the problems with fighting hoarding is that people give you stuff. Unlike alcoholism, where family, friends, and random strangers very rarely try to hand you a free drink.
I realize it was dishonest of my sister and I. But at the time it seemed rather trivial -- a white lie to spare my mom's feelings.
Now I tell both of my parents this: "Whatever you give me is mine. And since it is my property I will do anything I want with it -- that may mean I sell it or give it away or even throw it away."
They don't like this and have since stopped giving me anything. I am okay with that. I feel like, while they are unhappy with this, we at least understand each other now.
Thoughts?
Good. I am sure they hate that, but i think it is good for them. And since they are no longer giving you anything, they recognize that you are being honest. That is also good.
I have a deal with my dd - anything I give her, I am giving her, not mine any more. but some things are on indefinite loan - I want her to have them if she wants them, but before she can get rid of them she has to check with me and her siblings and we have the option to come get them - like my mom's hope chest. These items are few, but if she doesn't accept the terms, she desn't get the thing. Often if I send her home with leftovers she points to the container and asks " do I have to bring this back?". Usually I say "no" and get a big grin for my reward.
This is the child I traumatized the most with my hoarding and I am so grateful we can talk about it and work together now. We actually had a long talk with her and her boyfriend last weekend explaining that some of the stuff that has been going on with them lately is her reacting to me, not to him, and that I am really sorry and that hopefully he can be patient and just keep pointing out " that's your mom, not me.". We told him some awful stories and were all actually able to laugh.
My kids and I have talked about my stuff, and they know that while I do not expect them to keep it, I would appreciate it if they would dispose of it as optimally as possible - keeping what they each really want - even if that means one sibling keeps much and others keep less or little. And getting the rest to where it will be most enjoyed or useful if possible. That might mean sold, donated, or even recycled. They said they will,and I guess if this is the one white lie I'll never know - lol!
Do your parents see any problem at all with their situation?
My dad sort of sees it, but he is also resigned to it. I think he'd be more normal if it weren't for my mom. She has the hoarding compulsion very badly. My dad has said to my sister in private: "We either unload this stuff now, or you and your brother do it when we die."
But my mom really won't budge.
My dad has tried some trickery to get me to take things. His prized possessions are his guns. He gave me a rifle and said, "if you decide you don't want this just give it back. No harm. No foul."
So I did give it back to him some months later. Then the next time he came over he gave it back to me and said: "I want you to hold on to this for me. It isn't yours. You don't have to count it as a possession. You just keep it, shoot it when you like. Just leave it in your closet."
I asked: "When will you want it back?"
He said: "I don't know."
LOL
I was like: "You are basically just giving it to me in every way but calling it mine!"
So I told him I was giving it to my sis and BIL. They took it and like it. haha
I do feel like my mom chooses her stuff over my sis and I. :(
I would have just taken the gun back. No harm, no foul.
Have you told your mom how you feel? How is she choosing he stuff over you two? Can you not visit? Or do you just hate to visit? It sounds like your d isn't actually a hoarder, just a guy living in a hoard.
An example is this: When I told mom I was facing possible lay offs at work and that I was considering selling a few things to get a little cash on hand (perhaps my canoe, for instance) she immediately freaked out and said: "Don't sell that .22 revolver we gave you!!!!"
No "That is horrible! Maybe you'll be spared the lay off. No "Oh, I am sorry son. Maybe you'll be able to get another job with the state."
Nope, she just didn't want me to sell something she and my dad gave me. Stuff -- that little revolver -- was the first thing that came to her mind.
She never visited me for the 4.5 years I lived in Alabama or the 2 years I loved in Arizona. Not once. She preferred to stay with her hoard.
On that fateful day when my sister was helping to clean her house I remember my sis found some pics from back in her her high school days (my sis's not my mom's). My sis was like: "These are my old pics. I am throwing them away along with my 2003 yearbook."
My mom flipped out because she was sentimental about the old photos of my sister. She was crying and yelling. I remember thinking: "Who cares about keeping these photos you never look at, mom?! If you love my sister so much why don't you just make the 2.5 hour drive on the weekends and visit her?"
I didn't say that but my mom really could do that! She and my dad have a camper van. They could stay one mile away in the Wal-Mart lot or right in the driveway of my sister's house.
My sis thinks the same thing, that my dad is not a hoarder but rather a guy who lives in a hoard and has adapted to it. That is possible.
I am just so impressed that you can admit this about yourself and fight it. I mean it, Chicken lady. That is profound. You know how few people in your position can do that? You must have powerful self-reflection skills. And some serious discipline!
I'm enjoying listening to this conversation. I'm very interested in hearing from you chicken lady about a few things. What is the thought process that most commonly ran through your mind that caused the hoarding? What caused you to change?
I'm so amazed that you changed so much. Most people don't, from what I know.
My dad is an avid collector of many things. Nice antique things, but great in number. He collects for several years, then slowly sells them often at a profit, while starting new collections of other categories. His house is like a clean, beautiful, eclectic museum. But very crowded on every wall and surface. I don't know if I would categorize it as hoarding exactly. It's more like he's running an antique business in his home. But I'm sure that's a big reason that I'm such a minimalist as an adult.
It's funny how me and one brother are alike and our other two siblings are collectors.
I am a recovering hoarder. That is the first time I've actually written that, but a lot of what I feel is what I see talked about with hoarders. I tend to anthr... heck, I tend to assign human feelings and thoughts to 'things' I gave away some plastic drawers I had used for many years when I left Honduras. I was kinda teary and apologizing to them as I cleaned them off while waiting for the person to come get them, that I was 'abandoning' them down in Honduras. That kind of thing. I've hung around here for, I don't know, 15 years? Since the original board that was just one long listing of posts with no topic separation. About the time She-Ra actually realized she was retired. I followed Fly-Lady for awhile, and that helped some. I got rid of the wedding trinkets (ring pillow, cake knife, etc.) that I'd kept from my wedding almost 20 years before that had ended in divorce 2 years later while following Fly-Lady. I always laughed with envy when Fawn would post her yearly 'thing' count and we'd say I am the 'anti-Fawn' as in mater/anti-mater.
I have a fraction of what I used to have 20 years ago. But, I still have too much. I once had 2 10x20' storage units besides what I had with me while I was moving. Actually, I've had that much and more, and they were packed full. When I brought all my stuff out here to AZ 2 years ago I just naturally got the biggest truck Budget offered. It was only about 3/4 full. In other moves that would have been about half of my stuff. So, progress.
that's a lot of progress! and kudos for calling yourself a recovered hoarder for the first time
Hi Shadowmoss!
I couldn't move in one full size truck now. But we have a workshop and a pottery studio and a farm... Many big tools and equipment.
Tammy, I still collect things. You would probably call my house crowded. Dh makes rules. For example - we have his grandfather's bar. We both wanted it, but he was concerned about the storage. He agreed to accept it, but the rules were "this is my bar. You may request and drink the booze that is kept in the bar. I will select the glassware that goes in the bar. Nothing will ever be put down on the top of the bar even to change your grip.". I set that in my head and agreed and we got the bar. Sometimes I have to clear off the table so we can eat, but there is never anything on top of the bar. The study is also his. It is very open. I actually have to ask "may I bring my (book, coffee mug, knitting....) into the study?
I don't really anthropomorphism except with a few things like my teddy bear, who has been around since some time before I took him to the hospital with me when I was two. But that is a hoarder trait.
My triggers tend to be connections to people - I can't get rid of this because my kids made it together when they were small, and when I look at it I relive that moment of all of them being little and best friends and so proud of themselves and what if I give it away and I forget?; usefulness - hoarders tend to be very imaginative and creative. we can look at a scrap of trash and think of many ways it could be used/upcycled. We really believe we will find time to do that; and waste - never throw anything away because you might find a way to use it again or somebody might need it or styrofoam recycling might become available and all this will be lost in the landfill. (I am not really that obsessed with styrofoam, it just makes an easy example. I am obsessed with everything.)
I was raised in a family that reinforced all three tendencies. My grandfather was an only child on a subsistence farm in the depression. He worked his way through law school so that he could give us everything. My grandmother was a spoiled princess whose father was a merchant and banker in a small town and she was delighted to help my grandfather shower us with the everything. The hoarding genes came from her, but a lot of the reinforcement came from him. They had two kids. Both of them got the hoarding traits, but in my mother it isn't as bad because she also got an overwhelming sense of empathy and connection to people. She will often call me and say "do you think it's alright if I give ' thing' to 'person' because...". Sometimes I have to suggest that she buy person a new thing because I know she still uses thing a lot. And my father moderates her. My uncle is really bad. He retired. He still owns the office building. He is hiding stuff in the building from my aunt.
My brother and i are both hoarders. My cousin leans toward minimalist. I have a lot of theories about how that happened. I think my brother and I also got enough from my mom that eventually we were able to see how we were effecting our people and want to change. In my brother's case he took the alcoholic approach. He buys nothing. He accepts nothing. All things are purchased and managed by his wife. She chooses his clothing and food. When my grandmother died he refused to help clear out the house. He refused to come back to the house. He gave my sil a list of remembered items from the house that he wanted and she decided what was reasonable and passed the list to my mom.
Ultralightangler, I'm sorry. Your mom is really sick. I don't know if it would help you, but maybe if you think of it like advanced Alzheimer's, where she doesn't remember you, but it isn't her fault. Only I'm sad for you, because I do believe people can recover from this.
Do your parents travel in their camper at all? I don't know if the two things are connected, but I also tend toward hermitage. I leave the house on days I work and a few times a year to travel to visit family. If leave for anything else it's an significant event.
My kid just called to talk about her boyfriend's boxes (his dad died, his mom sold the house, he had one weekend to move his stuff out) and the storage racks he just bought for the basement. I was able to talk her down. We focused on the fact that after two weeks her living room/ kitchen/dining area are almost back to normal and only one significant item was ever put in the main bedroom. He is not me. Normal people put a shelf in the basement and put their Christmas decorations (tree, train, a few boxes of decorations) on it.
I'm not a hoarder but am trying to understand why I am having such a hard time letting go of certain things as we prepare to move. They are mostly sentimental things that belonged to other people like my parents and that I ended up with - furniture, photos, books, etc. They all elicit a memory - mostly bittersweet since my parent's lives were mostly sad. I feel like I am dishonoring them by letting their things go. Anyway, it is a process and I am unraveling the reasons as I proceed. The Marie Kondo (sp)? book is actually pretty helpful in that respect. There is a house around the corner, uninhabited for several years now with weeds grown high and things stacked on the porch. An old dead car in the driveway is covered with dust and filled with debris. The elderly daughter of the original owner comes by every week or so and talks about how she doesn't want to change anything because that was "Daddy's house" (he was a hoarder and I suspect she is too). The nieghbors are complicit by not turning her into code compliance so it endures. Humans are strange creatures.
The more I ponder this question the more I realize that our stuff is like anchors that keep us from floating away into the great unknown. In that respect, the more we hoard the greater our feeling of being moored. Armchair psychology.
I identify a lot with what you said. If I were to downsize, my biggest problem would be getting rid of sentimental stuff. I have this weird thing that people shouldn't be allowed to evaporate from memories, and so their "things" help keep them grounded to the people to whom they once made a difference. For this reason, one of my hobbies is Ancestry.com and I'm completely obsessed with not just dates, but with all the stories I can find and string together about my ancestors, to keep them alive, so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkytoe
I agree that Marie Kondo is helpful--and I've heard of useful ways to deal with this "disorder" -- like taking pictures of stuff and then letting them go.
Interestingly, I'm not at all into tombstones and cemeteries. Maybe I should be--that's the most appropriate repository for remembering the dead--not all the junk of theirs that we wind up tripping over.
I don't know Catherine, I was 10 when we buried my great grandfather. I'm sure I could ask my mom where that was, but I don't remember. I can't imagine standing by a gravestone being an appropriate way to honor nd remember him. But when I use his scythe - on which he moved the grip to accomodate his swing, I know that even though he is tall in my memory, I am now the same height. And when I use his clay tools or run my hands over a piece of his work, I think about him taking time to feed his soul on a winter evening after a long day of work - because I understand that even in the winter there is a lot of work on a farm. And these things make me respect and honor him and feel that he is a part of me.
Well said, Chicken lady. The best times of my life were spent with my great-aunt in her beach cottage. She taught me how to sew. I used to say that if I died and wound up in Madison (where her cottage was), I would know I'd made it to heaven. So, I have her old portable Singer (circa 1920) that I use as a bookend. I have her desk in my living room, her hurricane lamp in my bedroom. They do help me to remember her every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I remember the dead by often returning to the past in memory, so vividly I can sense every detail, almost as if it could be today and not long ago. I'm not sure it's really a better way though.
Some of us connect with stuff more then people, myself included. My mom is making my dad get rid of stuff now, so we won't have to later.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
So many alcoholics, will give an alcoholic a drink in my experience. Hoarders are more likely to try to pass junk on to the kids/grandkids (inlaw's parents), also IMHE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Sentiment is always bittersweet, as you have a good memory, mixed with the loss. If something is associated with a bad memory, then it tend to be easier to get rid of (it isn't an always thing, but more often then not, IMHE). There is a difference between reliving the past and remembering the past so things don't repeat. I think hoarding goes more towards the first part of that and switching that train of thought can help.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkytoe
I first wrote "then they tend to" rather then "then IT tends to", and I think that goes towards our/humans tendency's to humanize things (and we get exposed to that in writings/books). I am more and more feeling like that is a disservice, unless your an author.
But UltraliteAngler, has been posting about the other extreme, extreme minimalism. Where simple living to me, is more about right sizing. Finding ones balance so it doesn't interfere with a sense of purpose. That is what I am working on, along with trying to be more comfortable around people.
I am struggling with understanding my hoarding MIL. One thing she hoards is empty cardboard boxes. Her garage is packed right full of them. What could possibly be the reason for keeping a garage full of empty boxes?? I don't get it...
She might need one. And she will have exactly the right size. It was always such a rush when a kid needed something that normal people don't keep and I could produce it. And one for their friend too....
A sturdy cardboard box is so full of potential.
Also she might have plans for the boxes. Have you asked her? My tower of boxes is for mulching the garden. Only this year - I've actually been using them up!
At one point, my kid asked for some of my boxes for moving and I said "they're gone.". She said " What?!" and I said " they're gone. I used them up in the garden. All I've left is the flat ones the windows came in because I haven't cut them up yet.". She was shocked. I was sad because I couldn't give her boxes. But then, she was really proud of me. And she told me it was ok, she could get boxes somewhere else.
Is there cardboard recycling in her area?
Around here, cardboard boxes and paper sacks are roach magnets so don't like to keep too many. I would think that hoarders might have issues with insects and rats too.
and silverfish too - ick! (which reminds me I really need to dig 9 banker boxes of tax records out of the dormer attic space and get them out of the house)Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkytoe
Around here the piles of boxes would attract mice. It just makes no sense to me that she would not want to keep her garage useable for parking her vehicle. The inside of her house is in the sMe condition as the garage. However her yard could be featured in any fancy gardening magazine. She is all about outward appearances. Just don't go past the front door.
There are so, so many interesting, heartfelt, and insightful comments in this thread. I am going to take some time to consider them all.
One person referred to my fascination with extreme minimalism as being the other end of the hoarding spectrum.
I am actually very curious as to whether or not hoarding and extreme minimalism share some characteristics in the brain. fMRIs have been done on hoarders. Their brains are literally different than the rest of the population. I wonder what fMRIs of the brains of extreme minimalists would look like.
I feel like I am in control of my minimalism. For instance, I had a box fan that was old and clunky. I donated it thinking I probably did not really need it anyway. About a month later I realized I did need it because I used it to dry some clothes that could not go through the dryer. This had slipped my mind. I went to Target and bought a new one for $25. No real qualms about the acquisition. :)
I have also been as low as 167 possessions, and as changes in my life have happened I have gone back up to as many as 189. So it fluctuates.
I watched a documentary some time back. In it, a historian said something like this: "In most Native American cultures and in the cultures of indigenous people in other parts of the world a person owning more things than they themselves actually need is considered a form of mental illness."
I think this demonstrates that where on the minimalist-to-hoarder spectrum is deemed mental illness is socially constructed.
Thoughts?
Ummmm... Doesn't everyone keep the 'good' cardboard boxes, you know, just in case?
/me slinks off to ponder the cardboard boxes that have crept in since she last got rid of 'all' of them.
These boxes I speak of literally fill a single car garage floor to ceiling front to back. Would cause a cardboard box avalanche if the overhead door was opened. Yeah she keeps them "just in case".Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowmoss
hmm I've always co-existed quite peacefully with them. The last apartment had roaches, they were disgusting and gross and smelly, ugh so smelly. This apartment has silverfish (but haven't yet seen a roach). The roaches I hated, the silverfish don't bother. I suppose plastic storage boxes would keep silverfish from getting into papers and stuff. But of course since they were here when I moved in I suspect they also just live off the glue and paper in the walls.Quote:
and silverfish too - ick!
well I have kept a few with the thought of if I moved ... I guess I average about 4 years at a place (and move for good reasons, like the roaches - plus that place had other problems, or continually increasing rents). But one can always get boxes for that, so I don't know how justifiable it really is at all, maybe I'll get rid of them.Quote:
Ummmm... Doesn't everyone keep the 'good' cardboard boxes, you know, just in case?
shadowmoss:
I think having a few cardboard boxes around is not a bad idea at all. Might be a really good idea depending on your lifestyle. When I was married my ex had a lot of artwork, some hers and some from others. But since we moved a lot it made sense for us to keep boxes around, for general moving but also to move and/or store the artwork when it was not on display. Right now I have two plastic tubs for storage, one big one and one little one for outdoorsy stuff. I also use my luggage case and a backpack to store out-of-season clothing.
I've kept boxes around here ever since I moved in, when I started yearning to move out. I hope they'll be useful soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowmoss
I like to think of myself as a curator. Or maybe an archivist. Some part of my mind is absolutely convinced that I can take it with me.
The cardboard box discussion is interesting to me. I have been working on eliminating cardboard as a storage option because it was horrible when my basement flooded, because of silverfish, because mice an chew through it, and because it is very damp here. Also, you can't keep a cardboard box on a concrete floor because of moisture. So over the years I have bought a lot of bins. I do however have a bin full of small cardboard boxes suitable for gift wrapping.
I have only had a rat problem once. A litte brown rat made it's home under the concrete stoop to my barn and then tunneled up so it could chew into my feed sacks. I solved the problem with trash cans for feed and cutting the vegetation around the stoop to under 2". We do get mice in the house. Again, they are mostly a problem in the pantry, but I worry about them making homes in my stuff - especially blankets and yarn. Our cat seems to only like outdoor mice.
If you have roaches, they will hitchhike to your new home in corrogated cardboard.
Jane, I'm not going ;)
I think the three little words "just in case" pretty much sum up the thinking of people with hoarding problems. I certainly am not judging just trying to understand....Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowmoss
Libby:
"Just in case" is more of an instrumental hoarding issue. This style of hoarding is when people see infinite future uses for things. Like think of a plastic bottle cap. To you or I it is just a plastic bottle cap or a piece of garbage. But to an instrumental hoarder they might see it as a little milk bowl for a kitten or a place to put tiny screws or tacks. They can come up with so many uses that it makes "just in case" seem even more plausible.
My dad saved the foil that he used to wrap around pot pies to use over and over. Geez dad, you can afford to spring for an inch of foil each time you make a pot pie. He also didn't want me to throw away broken rubber bands because they made great cat toys. When cleaning out the junk drawer in the kitchen we found the plastic tear off tops from snack type items, about 50 of them. We couldn't figure out why you would save any let alone 50. I didn't see anything around that made sense to save them. I went through a lot of emotions cleaning out that property.
Simplemind: That sounds like instrumental hoarding. The interesting thing is that people often say things like: "That person lived through the depression" or "That person grew up in tough times." But hoarding has no correlation to poverty or growing up lacking things, according to the research.
My MiL grew up in a household of extreme hoarders. That is what she learned. My husband also struggles with that issue. I think it is a learned behaviour so why is it so difficult to unlearn?Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
libby:
The research shows that it is partly, if not mostly, genetic. There is something wrong with chromosome 14 that makes people hoard. While the study of compulsive hoarding is very new, they do know there is a large genetic component. They also know that emotionally troubled kids are more like to grow up and be hoarders. Another interesting factoid is that only Cognitive Behavioral Therapy has thus far been shown to work at all to help hoarders.
But heroin addicts are more likely to overcome their addiction than hoarders are. It is an incredibly difficult to disorder to overcome.
One other thing, most hoarders are just cluttered or shopaholics, but then there is a trigger moment. Maybe it is the death of a child or spouse, maybe it is an illness or injury. But suddenly the person goes from cluttered to full on extreme hoarding.
I wouldn't have called my parents hoarders, at least not proper hoarding as I have seen first hand. They did grow up with little and in my dad's case, extreme neglect. He has told me of a home he was in as a child that struck a note with him. He vowed to have as nice if not nicer. In fact, many of the things in the home I just worked on for the last several years were duplications of that home he admired. I swear he did a Scarlet O'Hara and said "As God is my witness, I will never be poor". He went from the kid who envied to the man to be envied. I swear to you we had everything except a giraffe. Don't get me wrong, they had an amazing home filled to the brim with beautiful things but at some point things started to get weird. My dad was a neat freak and at some point it changed. To say my mom was a relaxed housekeeper would be an understatement. A little over 10 years ago I started to get antsy going over there. Things weren't being cared for, cleaned or put away. I knew what was in my future. Dementia was a big part of it. My dad is still alive but I moved him into assisted living in February and then jumped into taking care of the house. I had been working on the outer property for the past three years, not touching the house. I worked my tush off for four months before I had to raise the white flag and call in a pro. Even after I went through several dumpsters and flat beds, what wasn't garbage was still too overwhelming to get through. If my dad knew what it sold for it would break his heart.
Each person's relationship to "stuff" is so individual and intriguing. Thanks for sharing more of yours and your family's story.
I know--I want to see how this turns out!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady