Electrify Everything

Local news had a feature on a man who has had his natural gas disconnected. They had a photo of him next to the cut off stubs of his gas lines coming out of the house. I believe he is still on the electrical grid, so is not technically off grid, but has solar panels, plus we can opt for wind power from our public service as some sort of paper shuffle exercise. He replaced his hot water heater and all appliances with electric. I did not catch in the article how he handles home heating. His comment about cost was, it wasn't cheap. Maybe some trend I'd not been aware of, but an interesting concept. Basically a fossil fuel free home, although there are probably some sort of equipment life cycle environmental costs.

It might be a bit of an ordeal for most homeowners, but I could see it in some new developments.

I am so ambivalent about the push for all-electric. Industrial solar and wind has its own environmental issues. I've attached a picture here that points out the mining that is required for all kinds of resources for electric cars. Electric does not necessarily equal green or sustainable.

If the end of fossil fuels is the goal, then electricity might be a better alternative. The answer, of course, is reduced consumption overall, but there's a snowball's chance in hell that that's happening, which is the discouraging thing.

In VT demand for electricity is going to probably exceed capacity within a few years. That's because of all of these "green" technologies.

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There are a lot of proposals in states/municipalities to legally require all new buildings to be all electric, they move slowly though. They should just do it already.

I am experimenting with moving some cooking to electric, I am getting an induction burner. That's an experiment, we will see how that goes. And no it won't work with every pan though you can get a disk for that. But anyway, I was thinking of getting an electric tea kettle anyway, and that is far more versatile and not particularly expensive, so I just went with it.

I already heat with electric but it's not that cold here. I can't move entirely off gas at this place as it's used for water heating, cold showers and baths are just a bridge too far. There are though definitely some apartments where it is possible to not have a personal gas bill at all, because the water heater is shared, so one could get a few electric appliances (an induction burner and a good convection toaster oven, could add an instapot but that's not required) and move off and cancel that bill entirely. I also lived in an all electric apartment for awhile, it was great (but did I think used shared water heaters and maybe shared gas laundry. But central heat, the stove etc. were all electric and the cost included in one's personal electric bill). I'm quite sure I did save money not having a gas bill (not that rent was particularly cheap there but ha). If not living in a rental, of course a fully electric stove would make sense and other electric appliances for laundry etc..

Obviously electricity can also burn fossil fuels, and that's a large project to convert the grid to non-fossil fuels and should be done. That needs to be done by governments not individuals. I do buy the green power in the hope it encourages it. I see it like this: electricity is preferable because it can in theory not use fossil fuels, so if that becomes more of the grid, it's good to go. Natural gas or oil will always use (in fact of course be) a fossil fuel. The natural gas companies here are also relentlessly corrupt. Another point made about natural gas is that whenever it is used it creates pollutants in the air. So it creates indoor air pollution, less gas use equals less indoor air pollution from that.

We already have blackout and brownouts. The grid can't support this.

I mean if that's really a case of the electric grid not being maintained one can dance around it, oh if only I make sure to buy an gas stove the unmaintained grid won't fail today, but really one needs infrastructure investment to maintain the grid and while increased electricity use may put increased demands on it, it needs maintaining anyway (in some cases it is on private companies to maintain the grid and they didn't, such as PG&E).

And meanwhile natural gas (aka methane) which is the only alternative to electricity here has plenty of problems, like massive gas leaks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliso_Canyon_gas_leak

ANM, I'm with you. I'm not saying I prefer fossil fuels--it's just that switching to other sources of industrial power is a feel good measure to rip the bandaid off slowly. And, because the the 8 billion people on the planet want stuff, we can't expect that energy consumption in total is going to diminish. It will take different forms, exploit different natural resources, but I can't say the situation is going to improve until we reach a tipping point of global respect for the earth.

The people on this forum are not the people I'm talking about. We are the "simple livers." Unfortunately, there aren't enough of us.

My sil was heavily involved in a fight against a new gas pipeline (they lost). He decided that he could not continue to use the gas that came with his home and fight the line, so they had the gas cut and capped and bought an induction stove. Everything else in the house had already been switched to electric. Including his car. He pays to be part of the paper shuffle, which he realizes is a paper shuffle “until enough people opt in to use all of the available alternative energy”

He was also concerned that apparently gas stoves contribute to indoor air pollution and he is doing as much as he can to create a healthy home and planet for my dgs.

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Originally Posted by catherine

Unfortunately, there aren't enough of us.

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My basic thought is that most people can talk green and do the feel good things, but are counting on technology to preserve their consumptive lifestyle, as in Bill Gate's and Al Gore's mansions. That's the basic starting reality, although I agree with everything you say.

I can guess that part of any success comes with more buildings having their own solar to supplement the grid electric, which could help with and over taxed electric grid. The article actually mentions that it's the gas infrastructure in the north east is old and insufficient for the future. There are some downsides the article mentions.

https://www.cpr.org/2022/07/08/color...l-gas-cutoffs/

As I've mentioned repeatedly, I hate natural gas, so I was happy to read that California is phasing it out in new buildings. It's a start.

I now have an electric stove and wish I had gas. If the electricity goes out, as it often does in the winter here in the north ... you can't use the stove. We have electric heat in one room that we never use because it is too expensive to heat with electricity here. YLMV

BTW...DH just got an electric lawnmower and loves it.

I thought that more than half of our electricity is generated by fossil fuels and/or nuclear? All of our appliances are electric but we heat with propane, and don't have central air. I don't see us being able to change that anytime soon. I really like the idea of home solar but I'm not giving up my trees - they really help with summer cooling. Still, I don't see how switching from gas or oil to electric is going to help that much overall, if we just use more fossil fuels to meet the increased electric demand.

edit to add - just saw Catherine's chart - good info!

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

I now have an electric stove and wish I had gas. If the electricity goes out, as it often does in the winter here in the north ... you can't use the stove. We have electric heat in one room that we never use because it is too expensive to heat with electricity here. YLMV

BTW...DH just got an electric lawnmower and loves it.

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I have a couple of basic camping stoves that are in reserve for power outages. I could probably do basic cooking for three or four days with the fuel I have.

I just replaced a ten year old cordless electric mower with a new model due to the battery not holding a good charge. They've improved over the years and are close to gas for power, plus no fooling around with gas. Anymore it seems a little silly to be using primitive gas mowers. It does point out some life cycle costs with battery production and disposal, though.

I got rid of my lawn so no need for a mower. Perennial ground cover and flowers works for me.

California had a month recently it ran entirely on green energy. But it was spring so of course it wasn't the highest demand month of the year (I would guess that is like August). It helps to have the ability to have solar and wind.

We had nearly a week with no power years ago--which is a rare, rare occurrence. I can get along for a few days with uncooked food--but if I couldn't, there are solar generators and other portable power sources available now that don't blow up the neighborhood or suffocate you in your sleep. :devil:

I missed the memo about why natural gas is so bad. Do tell why.


I guess I’m such a victim of advertising because I think of it as “clean” as touted is those old ads, and it’s certainly inexpensive when compared to electric heat and etc.
I know that I hate electric stove to cook with.

But I also know that we’re blessed here in the Midwest with plenty of natural gas and it’s just not plentiful everywhere, and not even available in certain parts of the country.

When natural gas burns it creates methane, which is a strong greenhouse gas. As a fossil fuel it's comparatively clean, but the story is that alternative renewable energies are preferred. There are other issues around exploration and production. Take it as you will. Here in the west wind and sun are also plentiful.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...nvironment.php

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

We had nearly a week with no power years ago--which is a rare, rare occurrence. I can get along for a few days with uncooked food--but if I couldn't, there are solar generators and other portable power sources available now that don't blow up the neighborhood or suffocate you in your sleep. :devil:

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Fear mongering. You are far more likely to be seriously injured in a car accident than having your house blow up from natural gas. As for the other, that’s why they put the stinky scent in it so that you can smell it.

Many years ago we are getting that natural gas odor outside, and when we called the gas company they came right out. They dnt s few around with gas leak reports. I don’t remember what the outcome was but it finally went away.

My all-electric house runs an average of $114 a month; a large percentage of that is hydro-powered.

Also, natural gas apparently causes not-insignificant levels of indoor pollution:

"Updated May 5, 2020: A Rocky Mountain Institute report, published today in collaboration with Physicians for Social Responsibility and others, underscores the UCLA modeling that cooking on gas can spike emissions of nitrogen dioxide and carbon monoxide to levels that would violate outdoor pollutant standards. The RMI report synthesizes two decades of health research, highlights key findings, and provides recommendations." (Natural Resources Defense Council)

If I find myself needing to micromanage cooking temperatures, I'll go with an induction cooktop.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Fear mongering. You are far more likely to be seriously injured in a car accident than having your house blow up from natural gas. As for the other, that’s why they put the stinky scent in it so that you can smell it.

Many years ago we are getting that natural gas odor outside, and when we call the gas company they came right out. Then I could for round with that stuff. I don’t remember what the outcome was but it finally went away.

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That could very well be, but why add an unnecessary risk factor to my life? A few years ago, several houses in Seattle exploded due to some flaw in design or maintenance.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

That could very well be, but why add an unnecessary risk factor to my life? A few years ago, several houses in Seattle exploded due to some flaw in design or maintenance.

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Remember this one? I had a good friend who lived there. Operative word is "lived"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Br...line_explosion

https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/d...pay-565-mi-001

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Originally Posted by bae

Remember this one? I had a good friend who lived there. Operative word is "lived"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Br...line_explosion

https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/d...pay-565-mi-001

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I remember the Bellingham pipeline explosion of 1999 that killed three. Yeah they don't happen often, but they're memorable when they do.

I was discussing this with a friend who seems to keep up with such things. He said that like the Graduate movie where the old guy whispers "plastics", the modern version would be "heat pumps". I had to do a little self educating, but with our cold winters I'd anticipate my heating costs would be huge if I had to heat with baseboard electric and didn't have solar panels.

And of course if we're mapping out hypothetical risks of being without electricity, there is the earthquake risk of gas for anyone in earthquake country. You are supposed to turn it off in an earthquake because of the fire risk.

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

And of course if we're mapping out hypothetical risks of being without electricity, there is the earthquake risk of gas for anyone in earthquake country. You are supposed to turn it off in an earthquake because of the fire risk.

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When my friend's father bought a condo in Palm Desert, he was advised to be sure to turn off the gas in case of an earthquake. He later admitted he had no idea how or where to do that.

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Originally Posted by Rogar

I was discussing this with a friend who seems to keep up with such things. He said that like the Graduate movie where the old guy whispers "plastics", the modern version would be "heat pumps". I had to do a little self educating, but with our cold winters I'd anticipate my heating costs would be huge if I had to heat with baseboard electric and didn't have solar panels.

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I use electric baseboard heat along with my wood stove in the winter, and even though I'm burning wood, my electricity/heating costs due to the baseboard heat are double in my 700 sq ft home than they were in my 2000 sq. ft home with an energy-efficient furnace/natural gas heat.

For that reason, I am getting a heat pump in September (first available time--the HVAC guy is swamped all summer installing them). I anticipate electricity costs to go down considerably, and I am still trying to figure out how to implement solar as well. But that's difficult because I can't do roof-top unless I cut down trees, which of course I refuse to do. I may buy into a solar farm, but I'm against those in principle, too, if they're built over arable land, or the land has been deforested to build the farm.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

My all-electric house runs an average of $114 a month; a large percentage of that is hydro-powered.

Also, natural gas apparently causes not-insignificant levels of indoor pollution:

"Updated May 5, 2020: A Rocky Mountain Institute report, published today in collaboration with Physicians for Social Responsibility and others, underscores the UCLA modeling that cooking on gas can spike emissions of nitrogen dioxide and carbon monoxide to levels that would violate outdoor pollutant standards. The RMI report synthesizes two decades of health research, highlights key findings, and provides recommendations." (Natural Resources Defense Council)

If I find myself needing to micromanage cooking temperatures, I'll go with an induction cooktop.

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I haven't paid that little for electric in years, and I don't heat with it nor do I use a lot. There are huge variances in electric rates.

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Originally Posted by Rogar

I was discussing this with a friend who seems to keep up with such things. He said that like the Graduate movie where the old guy whispers "plastics", the modern version would be "heat pumps". I had to do a little self educating, but with our cold winters I'd anticipate my heating costs would be huge if I had to heat with baseboard electric and didn't have solar panels.

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we are putting a heat pump in our newly constructed sun room. I remain skeptical about it because I remember the failures of those units 30 years ago.

As for invection cooktops, I am not attracted to those newfangled things. I love my retro microwave oven that uses a knobs to turn for setting minutes, I do not have to punch digital buttons.

Our electric baseboard heating cost 500/month in January 10 years ago in a 1400 sq ft house. After getting that bill when we went to bed we turned off the heat in every room but our bedroom when we went to bed. It was always really cold in the morning but lowered the bill by half.

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Originally Posted by bae

Remember this one? I had a good friend who lived there. Operative word is "lived"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Br...line_explosion

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That reminds me of this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukush...er?wprov=sfti1

As we've discussed elsewhere we had our 45 year old gas furnace replaced this spring with a heat pump both because it was 45 years old and because a new heat pump will be cheaper to operate and also because it meant getting central a/c as part of the deal, essentially for free. It also meant that we could move the air handler to our attic, freeing up space so we can expand our kitchen by renovating to make refrigerator space where the old furnace was and putting a big pantry cabinet where the fridge used to be. (that part will be done this fall once our contractor has time) A/C season seems to have ended with a whimper this year after a fairly cool summer. According to the nest thermostat, which shares the data, we used the a/c about 40 hours this entire summer. Going with a baseline of 300 kwh/month without a/c we used about 80 extra kwh running it. It will be interesting to see if using the heat pump proves to be as much more economical as my rough calculations were. Last winter we spent upwards of $200/month for gas, mostly for heat since the only other gas appliance we have is the hot water heater, which runs about $20/month for usage in the summer.

We had to spend $1300 replacing a section of our gas main when we dug out the koi pond to put in the front patio. I would have loved to put that money towards a heat pump water heater so we could cancel the natural gas service which has a $15/month connection fee plus usage but the plumber convinced us to wait a few years because heat pump water heaters are still in the early stages and supposedly newer, better models come out every year. Also, though, we got a $3,000 tax credit for switching to the heat pump for space heating, and can get another $3,000 credit when we switch the hot water heater, you can't get two credits in one year, so I suppose we'll still come out ahead assuming that the credit still exists in 2-3 years when we convert the hot water heater to a heat pump system.

jp, I appreciate your analysis of the heat pump, because, as you probably recall, we had one installed to replace the OLD baseboard electric heating in our living room, and to give us the extra benefit of air conditioning.

We are really happy with our heat pump, as it has saved us $60/mo--including the cost of the AC, which we never had prior to September 2022.

But I have one big complaint--we have never had a rodent problem all the time we have been here. Suddenly, we have had 3 intrusions--all since we have installed the heat pump. Please let me know if you experience the same thing. I can't think of any other reason these critters have found their way in, other than maybe through the ductwork in the heat pump.

It is very annoying.

Woah. That would be super annoying. My understanding is that mice can squeeze through an opening not much bigger than a quarter coin. We have signs of rodents in our attic but there are in umerable ways they can get in.

We probably won’t have a similar problem because they ran the refrigerant pipes through our downstairs ceiling which had already been wide open to a vent in the downstairs soffit which previously provided combustion air to the old furnace. There are easier ways for rodents to get in so I doubt this will have any effect.

I'm going back a little to the beginning of this conversation, so sorry. "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" was the original catch phrase. We decided to ignore the "reduce," but it's the most important of the three. "Alternative Energy" is really a movement to sustain the status quo, meaning continuing our current levels of consumption, resource use, and population growth. It will itself eventually lead to its own crisis, probably much sooner, because solar panels and wind turbines have limited lifespans and, at least now, they require fossil fuels to replace (but maybe this is changing?). We just need to slow down. As the theme of this board suggests, we need simpler, more livable lives. We're on an insane roller coaster that can't end well. I hope we come to our senses.

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Originally Posted by ewomack

I'm going back a little to the beginning of this conversation, so sorry. "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" was the original catch phrase. We decided to ignore the "reduce," but it's the most important of the three. "Alternative Energy" is really a movement to sustain the status quo, meaning continuing our current levels of consumption, resource use, and population growth. It will itself eventually lead to its own crisis, probably much sooner, because solar panels and wind turbines have limited lifespans and, at least now, they require fossil fuels to replace (but maybe this is changing?). We just need to slow down. As the theme of this board suggests, we need simpler, more livable lives. We're on an insane roller coaster that can't end well. I hope we come to our senses.

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I am totally on board with all of that. It seems that people expect the government somehow to legislate or fund all the climate remedial measures with out taking some significant level of personal responsibility. It's like some famous person once said, driving a Prius, taking shorter showers, and recycling Styrofoam isn't going to save the planet. Climate change isn't the only environment issue out there. Loss of habitat is a big one. Given enough time, most of the material items we consume will end up in a landfill or another disposal stream and even recycling has an energy cost and some degree of material loss. Possibly singing to the choir here.

My stove and clothes dryer are electric. Heat and hot water are natural gas. Here in the Midwest in cities/suburbs, this seems to be pretty common. My has bill is higher than it could be because I love long hot baths. I wish I could switch to an on-demand water heater, but that’s not going to happen. I rent and when the water heater goes, it’s much less expensive to replace the current tank water heater with the same. Plus, I’m not even sure if the incoming gas pipe is even big enough to supply an on-demand water heater. Furnace was just installed last October. It replaced the broken one that was original to the early 80s building.

I don’t mind cooking on an electric stove. The electric dryer doesn’t bother me either. With it being just me, I do maybe three loads of laundry a week. I do have a folding drying rack set up in a corner of my kitchen, but it’s been so humid, I don’t air dry much of anything, unless the items require it,.

okay----one of my case studies had a retirement project(although he undertook it in his mid-late 70's) in which his goal was to go off-grid. So anyway---he acquired all the solarpanels and other hardware to make his home all-electric, doing some of the work himself. It takes a LOT of solar panels, for a whole house. Okay--along comes a violent wind and hailstorm several years later, which demolishes his solar-power setup. But he gleefully reported that the 'surance compny paid his claim of $28,000 for the damage. But yeah--bear in mind he's 80+ now, & uses wood heat also. So, I asked him: Did you bank the settlement and reconnect to the grid? Because, I was thinking to myself: if his propane + electricity bills were say: as much as $280 a month on average, odds are he'd never use up the $28k in the bank, drawing interest. Plus, fewer hassles cutting wood, etc., etc., etc. He said heck no, I replaced the whole system with a new one and it's up and working, now. But hey--he's no accountant; just an idealistic handyman.