Personal finance and worry

In the thread about Ramit Sethi, I relayed how he was working with a family that had a huge net income--45k/month, yet they are still very worried about finances because they are in the technology sector and they are afraid that their jobs will disappear... even though they could retire right now if their income stream dried up!

Then there are people who live their whole lives without a thought to saving money and aren't worried about it.

So I think it's interesting how everyone has a different "worry meter" when it comes to money. When do people start worrying about the state of their finances? How much/how little money does it take.. where is that tipping point?

How about you? At what point would you start worrying about the financial side of your life, and why? What scares you? What drives that worry? Does it come from a cultural identity, as Ramit suggested with his clients, who were Indian immigrants? Does it come from messages you got from your parents? Does it come from a personal experience?

When have you worried about money? What specific situation (i.e., job situation, specific amount of money in the bank) would trip your worry meter? How has that driven your life choices?

Discuss.

I will worry immensely about money when the Russians or the Chinese scramble all of our electronic signals and my wealth, which is represented digitally, goes proof.

They only wealth assets we have that are tangible are our house, our condo, and that Iowa farm.

As for day-to-day worry, I certainly don’t have that now. I sometimes have an ick feeling when I overspend on stupid cheap crap from China. When I buy something that has turned out to be yucky I have money regret.

I look for a genuine enjoyment from the things I buy. Even though I’m spending obscene amounts of money these days, it doesn’t make a dent in our assets and so it is only “obscene “relative to how frugal we’ve been in the past.But yeah, at this time last year I ordered a new car over the phone with only a little bit of thought. But you know, it’s a mid range Ford so it’s not like it’s some top-of-the-line car.

I am living the rich life Ramit wants me to live! I am living like no one else as Dave Ramsey wants me to live!

Ramit would ask me about the money habits of my family of origin. My father, who I identified heavily with, was very frugal. I remember him looking a little bit worried at times about our family doing certain things such as a two week stay at the lake rather than one week even though they had decent middle-class incomes. My mother worked. ( as an aside, I truly don’t understand the demographic my age —old! who had a mom who stayed home. it seems to me that all my friends and family had moms who worked, sometimes professional jobs, and sometimes “little “jobs but those little jobs were full-time. Is this a Midwestern thing? And I would say that DH’s mom didn’t have a job outside the home but she worked on the family farm and yeah that means she drove the tractor in addition to all of the farm wife chores.)
Anyway – back to our regular discussion.

so family of origin money values are key in developing our attitude about money. Ramit’s program has shown me that some people truly see money as coming and going and they have no control over it. That just horrifies me. How can anyone live like that? The wife in yesterday’s program was astonishing to me. She’s practically 40 years old and she has never taken any personal responsibility for supporting herself or managing money.

Timely for me.

Intellectually I know I don't need to worry. But for a long time I've felt vaguely nervous, that I need to "track" my net worth. I blame Joe Dominguez. :D

Since a lot of that net worth is in assets whose market value fluctuates, there's a certain crazy-making to this. I can "gain" or "lose" $70K in a week and it won't make a bit of difference to my life, but if I "gain" or "lose" $700 IRL it's still exciting (or bothersome unless it got spent mindfully on something of value to us).

As far as origins, my father was one of those people who would shudder at the thought of an "enough point". He suffered greatly in the Depression, even as a small child - at the age of five, I think he felt personally responsible for his family's struggles. He would spend on valuable things on occasion, but I think he was always terrified inside. I can relate.

Currently, I am not worried about money but that state of mind comes and goes. Large purchases make me nervous even though at this point I can pay for them. Issues about getting old and finances make me nervous because there is such uncertainty there. It bothers me that everything basic just keeps going up - utilities, insurance, food etc. I was raised with a Depression era mom who frugalized everything. That and an abhorrence of waste in general permeate my financial decisions.

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Originally Posted by kib

Timely for me.

Intellectually I know I don't need to worry. But for a long time I've felt vaguely nervous, that I need to "track" my net worth. I blame Joe Dominguez. :D

Since a lot of that net worth is in assets whose market value fluctuates, there's a certain crazy-making to this. I can "gain" or "lose" $70K in a week and it won't make a bit of difference to my life, but if I "gain" or "lose" $700 IRL it's still exciting (or bothersome unless it got spent mindfully on something of value to us).

As far as origins, my father was one of those people who would shudder at the thought of an "enough point". He suffered greatly in the Depression, even as a small child - at the age of five, I think he felt personally responsible for his family's struggles. He would spend on valuable things on occasion, but I think he was always terrified inside. I can relate.

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anyone over the age of 40 should be able to “track” their assets. Even if they just add them up in their head to see if they’re negative, zero, or positive it’s good enough for me, but I would have trouble having any respect for someone who couldn’t do at least that minimum.

We “track” our assets by taking a snapshot of them every December 31 and then that’s it, I don’t look again.

Last fall I did ask DH if he thought we’d be up or down over the previous year because I wanted to buy an expensive piece of pottery. He said it’s gonna be down but of course he was wrong and we were up over the previous year. I still did not buy the pottery

I don't know you can ever stop worrying. Found out a good reason why the restaurant is having problems, is the idiot has gone back to gambling, and worse it looks like mostly scratch offs with one boat day (bets off could help with the boat, not scratch offs). His accident has allowed me to do a huge turn around in now the 12 days he has been off. Help, banker, etc. don't want him back.
Then the 90+ year old that effectively was the reason the business started, has bought and given away as many as 5 houses the last couple of years, bought a million dollars worth of vehicles and given many of them away, and now has realized when his money watching guy, died pre 2020, nobody was watching his investments which went to hell, so now he is negative several hundred thousand dollars (had a car dealer come looking), and just tried to resell a building he already sold, and is being sued by the person that almost owns it now.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

anyone over the age of 40 should be able to “track their assets. Even if they just add them up in their head to see if they’re negative, zero, or positive it’s good enough for me, but I would have trouble having any respect for someone who couldn’t do at least that minimum.


We “track” our assets by taking a snapshot of them every December 31 and then that’s it, I don’t look again.


Last fall I did ask DH if he thought we’d be up or down over the previous year because I wanted to buy an expensive piece of pottery. He said it’s gonna be down but of course he was wrong and we were up over the previous year. I still did not buy the pottery.

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Why not? I contemplate buying expensive things and then breathe a sigh of relief when I change my mind.

My situation is a bit different. My mother is 94 and still more or less compos mentis, but I'm her financial POA / accountant, and she's got a lot of assets. Even if I let go of my own hyper-vigilance (I pretty much track every day, at least a cursory glance to be sure nothing's gone off the rails), I carry this for her. Obviously I have a vested interest in making sure things stay on course, but mostly I'd just be devastated if anything happened to the money while she's alive.

On the flip side of it, hubs has wanted me to be in charge of our / his money because he's "not good with money". (I can vouch for that, and frankly it's not a place I want to experiment.) He's Not in a position to be retired yet, so there's pressure on that side as well. So, drawdown for her, maintenance without drawdown for me, and wealth accumulation for him. Some days I feel very adult and finance savvy, and some days I want to run away with a bundle of $100 bills in a box.

Should I worry? As you say, I have a lump in my throat every so often seeing how much of my wealth is just a number in a computer. My consolation is that if the digital world really falls apart, everyone else is going down with me, but I'll admit there's a part of me that's furious with myself for not being more adamant about accumulating Physical wealth (e.g. being off grid, growing more food, etc.)

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Originally Posted by pinkytoe

Currently, I am not worried about money but that state of mind comes and goes. Large purchases make me nervous even though at this point I can pay for them. Issues about getting old and finances make me nervous because there is such uncertainty there. It bothers me that everything basic just keeps going up - utilities, insurance, food etc. I was raised with a Depression era mom who frugalized everything. That and an abhorrence of waste in general permeate my financial decisions.

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I relate to this response a lot right now.

With pending retirement for both dh and myself, I am VERY nervous/worried about finances! I am more of a "I believe it when the money is in hand" type of person and am nervous that the numbers we looked at several months ago will not materialize when we actually need them.

I also agree with kib here: "but I'll admit there's a part of me that's furious with myself for not being more adamant about accumulating Physical wealth (e.g. being off grid, growing more food, etc.)"

I REALLY hope we are able to downsize to a space I can do the above - especially since I feel I will have the time to invest in such things AFTER retirement.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Ramit would ask me about the money habits of my family of origin. My father, who I identified heavily with, was very frugal. I remember him looking a little bit worried at times about our family doing certain things such as a two week stay at the lake rather than one week even though they had decent middle-class incomes. My mother worked. ( as an aside, I truly don’t understand the demographic my age —old! who had a mom who stayed home. it seems to me that all my friends and family had moms who worked, sometimes professional jobs, and sometimes “little “jobs but those little jobs were full-time. Is this a Midwestern thing? And I would say that DH’s mom didn’t have a job outside the home but she worked on the family farm and yeah that means she drove the tractor in addition to all of the farm wife chores.)
Anyway – back to our regular discussion.


some people truly see money as coming and going and they have no control over it. That just horrifies me. .

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That's DH. In fact he frequently says exactly that: "Who cares?? Money comes and money goes." But this has been a lifelong attitude for him, even with a mother who was so frugal she would wait in a customer service line to correct a .15 mistake in the store's favor, and she would bring her own tea bags to restaurants and ask them for hot water. I don't get it. And as you said that attitude conveys a sense of powerlessness that is just false.

The financial program I signed up with had a fairly rigorous module on uncovering where your attitudes about money come from, and frankly, My family-of-origin lived out DH's philosophy. We lived in a 50s suburban neighborhood but wore hand-me-downs; we were broke in the early 60s after the divorce; middle-class and doing fine but far from flush in the late 60s; early 70s wantonly extravagant after my stepfather received an inheritance; and then back full circle when stepfather resumed his drug and alcohol addiction--back to the crapper. And as I've said many times here, my mother died penniless.

So that module I worked through uncovered a tremendous ambivalence about money which is probably no surprise to most of you. On the one hand, I find great solace and wisdom in this Buddhist poem (which I think I've posted here before):

Like a snail, I carry my humble zendō with me.
It is not as small as it looks
For the boundless sky joins it
When I open a window.
If one has no idea of limitation,
He should enjoy real freedom.
A nameless monk may not have the New Year callers to visit him,
But the morning sun hangs above the slums.
It will be honorable enough to receive the golden light from the east.

But OTOH, I have always felt a responsibility to provide everything materially for my children that was given to me, not by my parents, but by my grandparents and aunts and uncles. I am grateful that I was able to check off undergraduate education for all four kids, cheap cars for all four when they started driving, weddings paid for. Plus annual family vacations including a once-in-lifetime trip to Scotland for 7 people.

It's not that I'm proud of that accomplishment--I'm more relieved. I would have felt a weird sense of shame if I had been unable to do that for them even though in my head I recognize I did not HAVE to be the one to give them all that. I think that, in addition to me needing badly to identify with my more affluent relatives, it's carryover shame from when I was in the crapper in the 50s/60s/80s/90s. As for me, I know I would not need much. My kids are always saying to me, Mom, you need X. Mom, why don't I buy you Z? And I refuse them all the time.

I also worry now that I will tip back into shamedom (I know that's not a word, but it captures my feeling of living in a state of shame, as opposed to a temporary feeling) if I dropped dead and left them with any debt to clean up after I'm gone. Beyond that, I don't care if I leave them with little-to-no cash, and I'm happy that they will inherit our house, as humble as it is.

One may say, and I wouldn't argue, that if I had been more realistic about what I could give the kids I'd be in a better position today. Of course, I did have that wild card mess in 2007-2010 when I had to carry my MIL's house during the housing bust/recession. That alone cost me, all told, probably .5M. So I do the best I can, and I am trying NOT to worry. I ONLY worry about being unable to clear debt at this point.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

I don't know you can ever stop worrying. Found out a good reason why the restaurant is having problems, is the idiot has gone back to gambling, and worse it looks like mostly scratch offs with one boat day (bets off could help with the boat, not scratch offs). His accident has allowed me to do a huge turn around in now the 12 days he has been off. Help, banker, etc. don't want him back.
Then the 90+ year old that effectively was the reason the business started, has bought and given away as many as 5 houses the last couple of years, bought a million dollars worth of vehicles and given many of them away, and now has realized when his money watching guy, died pre 2020, nobody was watching his investments which went to hell, so now he is negative several hundred thousand dollars (had a car dealer come looking), and just tried to resell a building he already sold, and is being sued by the person that almost owns it now.

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so your financial life is tied up with a business partner who gambles? Oy vey.

How far away are you from collecting Social Security? And can you live on that? I know you are somewhere around my age, although a bit younger. You need to get away from that place.

Catherine, I know you know this, but when you die your children will not have
to “clean up “any debt or lack of debt. You, Catherine, will deal with that from the grave through the vehicle Vermont defines as your estate.

I think it’s wonderful that you provided undergraduate education, a car, and even a wedding for God’s sake for your kids. That is a lot of middle-class and upper middle-class stuff going to your kids.

I remember my mother saying very clearly several times throughout my life “we are giving you an education, that is your inheritance.” There was no car provided. There was no wedding (not that I wanted one.) There were a couple of small infusions of cash from my parents tho we did not need it ha ha. I think that’s why they gave us money, because they knew we didn’t need it, they knew it would go immediately into our bank account and stay there.

still upon her death. There was a nice chunk of money, $60,000, going to me and the same amount going to my brother, so that was a nice gift but not excessive.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Catherine, I know you know this, but when you die your children will not have
to “clean up “any debt or lack of debt. You, Catherine, will deal with that from the grave through the vehicle Vermont defines as your estate.

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Yes, but this is another fear I have originating from the past... My mother had to sell the beloved cottage where I spent summers with my aunt in order to "clean up" her mother's debt--not that my grandmother had any credit card debt, but she inherited the cottage while living in a nursing home with dementia and the cottage went to the State to cover her care. I don't want my kids to have to sell the house to pay off my debts. If they want to sell it and take the money, fine. But I'd rather be a John Adams than a Thomas Jefferson (if you know anything about their estates).

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Originally Posted by catherine

Yes, but this is another fear I have originating from the past... My mother had to sell the beloved cottage where I spent summers with my aunt in order to "clean up" her mother's debt--not that my grandmother had any credit card debt, but she inherited the cottage while living in a nursing home with dementia and the cottage went to the State to cover her care. I don't want my kids to have to sell the house to pay off my debts. If they want to sell it and take the money, fine. But I'd rather be a John Adams than a Thomas Jefferson (if you know anything about their estates).

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Yes, if Medicaid is paying for someone's care in a facility, then the house is sold to pay back the money to Medicaid, that's how it works. It's not really them cleaning up debt; it's more like a lien that changes ownership of the house and you have a life estate at that point. So the house does not get passed down to new owners as it is already owned by the state. It's a fine distinction, but if the state is paying for your care and leaving you the house, then you no longer really have the house in that sense, you have the life estate in the house. At least that is my understanding of it.

Definitely agree about traumas from the past influencing what we do around money, including observed traumas that belong to someone else, especially our mothers. I am coping with that right now with the settlement of my mom's estate. Tomorrow a family commercial property is scheduled to close, and it's my last tie to that place and it's been in the family, caring for the family for over 100 years, and I feel a great deal of grief and like I am letting down the family.

More about leaving houses to children--if you want to do that then you have to have enough resources to pay for your care up until death, or be lucky enough to die before you need to go into a home for care.
Then there is the problem of it being hard to inherit a part of a house. That is why I did not fight to get the house my mom wanted to leave to me, although it caused immense grief to have it leave the family. But the idea of my brothers being able to come visit and sit around my house and feel it was part theirs was so abhorrent. On the other hand, last night I dreamed I called the new owner and asked to buy it back, and this morning woke up and said to my husband maybe that is what I should do.. .

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

so your financial life is tied up with a business partner who gambles? Oy vey.

How far away are you from collecting Social Security? And can you live on that? I know you are somewhere around my age, although a bit younger. You need to get away from that place.

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Didn't know he went back to it, unfortunately. Way too young for SS, unless I am declared disabled, and I have been looking into that, as my situation is ugly (according to everyone including the social workers helping at Chemo), and could go either way. Age, well I just had my 54th birthday, and if I go away from there, there goes my health insurance.
Company insurance on the vehicle came in today, I get paid tomorrow, then need to go hire a lawyer, as I am trying to get the house done and he's been claiming his lawyer has all the paperwork, but neither his lawyer or our banker (talks to the lawyer daily) know of any sales contract he has signed or the fact he has changed prices, often while blaming me for the sale not being done. (he doesn't face reality)
Friend just came back from seeing him, text said he is in BAD SHAPE, all caps.

Another friend of mine who wrenches where I used to wrench, thought he was having a bad time until he heard my story today. I could use some help (not a lot) and he needs a place to stay after his girlfriend am he split up, so I think he will be staying with me for a month or two to get first and last months rent while looking for his own place. He's been trying to get me to ask him for help, but I feel bad asking everybody. This could be a good thing for us both, change attitudes, help each other, etc.

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Originally Posted by Tybee

More about leaving houses to children--if you want to do that then you have to have enough resources to pay for your care up until death, or be lucky enough to die before you need to go into a home for care. .

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Couldn't DH and I put the house in an irrevocable trust at some point? I do understand that it could get very messy with managing co-ownership. My DIL has a family "camp" (as they call it up here) in the Adirondacks. Her grandfather built it on a lake and It is supposedly a great family vacation home. But as the cousin pool keeps getting larger and larger and the older generation starts to disappear, they are now trying to set up more formal "rules" regarding the co-ownership of the place.

I'm so sorry about the commercial building, Tybee, but why do you feel you're letting the family down?

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Didn't know he went back to it, unfortunately. Way too young for SS, unless I am declared disabled, and I have been looking into that, as my situation is ugly (according to everyone including the social workers helping at Chemo), and could go either way. Age, well I just had my 54th birthday, and if I go away from there, there goes my health insurance.
Company insurance on the vehicle came in today, I get paid tomorrow, then need to go hire a lawyer, as I am trying to get the house done and he's been claiming his lawyer has all the paperwork, but neither his lawyer or our banker (talks to the lawyer daily) know of any sales contract he has signed or the fact he has changed prices, often while blaming me for the sale not being done. (he doesn't face reality)
Friend just came back from seeing him, text said he is in BAD SHAPE, all caps.

Another friend of mine who wrenches where I used to wrench, thought he was having a bad time until he heard my story today. I could use some help (not a lot) and he needs a place to stay after his girlfriend am he split up, so I think he will be staying with me for a month or two to get first and last months rent while looking for his own place. He's been trying to get me to ask him for help, but I feel bad asking everybody. This could be a good thing for us both, change attitudes, help each other, etc.

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So sorry for your situation, TMS. I do think that if a person has an independent nature hard-wired into them, it is very, very hard to allow others to help them. But often people want to help when they see a friend in need.

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Originally Posted by catherine

Couldn't DH and I put the house in an irrevocable trust at some point? I do understand that it could get very messy with managing co-ownership. My DIL has a family "camp" (as they call it up here) in the Adirondacks. Her grandfather built it on a lake and It is supposedly a great family vacation home. But as the cousin pool keeps getting larger and larger and the older generation starts to disappear, they are now trying to set up more formal "rules" regarding the co-ownership of the place.

I'm so sorry about the commercial building, Tybee, but why do you feel you're letting the family down?

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we have talked about this attempt to shield money from the clawback provisions of Medicaid many times.

If you are serious about it, consult an estate and elder care attorney, one in your state of course. Random people on the internet can’t begin to address this.

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Didn't know he went back to it, unfortunately. Way too young for SS, unless I am declared disabled, and I have been looking into that, as my situation is ugly (according to everyone including the social workers helping at Chemo), and could go either way. Age, well I just had my 54th birthday, and if I go away from there, there goes my health insurance.
Company insurance on the vehicle came in today, I get paid tomorrow, then need to go hire a lawyer, as I am trying to get the house done and he's been claiming his lawyer has all the paperwork, but neither his lawyer or our banker (talks to the lawyer daily) know of any sales contract he has signed or the fact he has changed prices, often while blaming me for the sale not being done. (he doesn't face reality)
Friend just came back from seeing him, text said he is in BAD SHAPE, all caps.

Another friend of mine who wrenches where I used to wrench, thought he was having a bad time until he heard my story today. I could use some help (not a lot) and he needs a place to stay after his girlfriend am he split up, so I think he will be staying with me for a month or two to get first and last months rent while looking for his own place. He's been trying to get me to ask him for help, but I feel bad asking everybody. This could be a good thing for us both, change attitudes, help each other, etc.

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oh I see. Yes you are a long ways away from Social Security. Well I and everyone here hope that your treatment and recovery goes as well can be expected. You can’t work 100 hour weeks when you’re going through cancer treatment.

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Originally Posted by catherine

Couldn't DH and I put the house in an irrevocable trust at some point? I do understand that it could get very messy with managing co-ownership. My DIL has a family "camp" (as they call it up here) in the Adirondacks. Her grandfather built it on a lake and It is supposedly a great family vacation home. But as the cousin pool keeps getting larger and larger and the older generation starts to disappear, they are now trying to set up more formal "rules" regarding the co-ownership of the place.

I'm so sorry about the commercial building, Tybee, but why do you feel you're letting the family down?

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I had not thought about an irrevocable trust. I looked it up and it looks like that works but you have to do it before the 5 year lookback period:

How Can a Trust Help You Avoid Nursing Home Costs? | Kiplinger

I have known people where they did not do that, and when the house sold after the person died, they only had to pay back a portion of the money, not the whole amount of the sale. So maybe if the house was not put in a trust, then the kids could get together and get a mortgage to pay off what the estate owed to Medicare. I would talk to a lawyer if you want to leave the kids the house, no matter what you do about a trust, it would be much better to talk to a lawyer now.*


*I would involve the kids in these discussions, and maybe they could as a group start a bank account and start saving for this possibility--each contribute the same amount each year, to have a head start on paying back the Medicare money if they need to. Or if they don't need to, a bank account that they could use to fund expenses to the house.

Cottage law was a big deal where we lived in Michigan because of Lake Michigan and I guess it is in Wisconsin, too--check out this article about family cottages, interesting:
Family Cottage: How to Structure Ownership for Future Generations (schloemerlaw.com)

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Originally Posted by Tybee

Cottage law was a big deal where we lived in Michigan because of Lake Michigan and I guess it is in Wisconsin, too--check out this article about family cottages, interesting:
Family Cottage: How to Structure Ownership for Future Generations (schloemerlaw.com)

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Very interesting! Thanks for providing it.

I don't know that I worry worry. I worry about job loss since it can take a year to get a new job, but that doesn't mean it's an immediate worry (and I have a year in emergency funds, but I don't ever want to be in that situation). I worry about retirement and resolve to put a little more in the 401k (it's not like my contributions were super low before, but it's never enough you know). I worry if my mom will have enough money for the rest of her life but I can not solve that. I'd have to be rich to, and I am not rich. I worry about a sibling who will not work but I can not solve that. I have tried. I sympathize with my boyfriends current job precarity and struggleto find another better job but I can not solve that.

I feel like the future is SO SUPER UNCERTAIN anyway, that finances are just one small part of that. I mean I worry about all the uncertainties like climate change etc. but I can not single handedly solve that! (sure one can do activism but let's be real, one person can't solve this, and if one person could it would be a person far more powerful than me) I genuinely believe much is out of our control. It's out of our control, there is nothing we can do if tragedy really wants to befall us. It it wants to, it will. If we get cancer of the everything and can't pay the medical bills, well that's just this system. Of course I keep health insurance and all that, of course I have an emergency fund, a retirement fund. But I truly believe so much is out of our control anyway.

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Originally Posted by Tybee

Cottage law was a big deal where we lived in Michigan because of Lake Michigan and I guess it is in Wisconsin, too--check out this article about family cottages, interesting:
Faily Cottage: How to Structure Ownership for Future Generations (schloemerlaw.com)

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It’s a big deal, too, in my former neighbor-to-the-North, Minnesota.

On the subject of an irrevocable trust, I can’t imagine giving up control over my chief asset, which in Catherine’s case would be this property.

if Catherine needs care in her old age, how does that happen? If she doesn’t qualify for a nursing home care which would be paid for by Medicaid, but she still needs to live somewhere besides the wintry lake cabin, how does that work? Where does the money come from? How does it work if the spouses of her children decide to leave and those children are named in the irrevocable trust as grantees?

Just seems messy to me, and risky.

I would be talking to my kids to make sure they really wanted the cabin before I jump through all those hoops, and gave up that resource that would fund what I might need in my elder years. For all you know, a couple of your kids would rather you have your own money to pay your own way, rather than them end up with the cabin. Don’t decide for them, they as adults should be deciding for themselves.

Catherine, have you actually talked to your children about this plan? An open and honest conversation can reveal much about how they as a group will operate as co-owners of your lake cabin.