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I say yes (I speak of Luigi Mangioni here) and furthermore believe that his likeness should appear on US coins, stamps, and cash. The man is a true folk hero and source of hope for everyday struggling Americans living the 2 American F's: frustration and fear.
I predict more such events. Americans have had enough. Rob
PS What's your take?
If your idea of a hero is a coward who shoots an unarmed man in the back, sure.
You are probably too young to remember this one, but your post made me think of this song, about how contagious evil is:
Bing Videos
Evil grows in the dark
Where the sun it never shines
Evil grows in cracks and holes
And lives in people's minds.
And your excuse for Brian Thompson illegally denying patient care to innocent policyholders, resulting in other deaths, again was? Am I hearing you correctly that these innocent policyholder deaths are but collateral damage to corporate profit? Beam me up, Scotty, I'm far too decent of a human being to live in this benighted country if so. At least we can take solace in that there will likely be many more similar human rights uprisings going forward. At least there is that. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
What specific crimes did Brian Thompson commit that warranted his execution by a vigilante on the public streets?
What is "folk heroic" about that act?
No, a coward is someone using AI to illegally deny patient claims, oblivious to resulting patient deaths in the name of profit. Luigi Mangioni should - his likeness, anyway - appear on US coins, stamps, and cash. What an uplifting message this would be to the majority of US citizens, and what a positive message to the rest of the world that justice is still possible in the United States *even I'm surprised by this!!! RobQuote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Using AI to deny legitimate patient claims from innocent policyholders resulting in patient deaths. We all deserve better than this - in a just world, the US would pay for us all to resettle elsewhere - at this point, how could a rational person EVER truly trust the United States again? At least this line of thinking is sifting upwards on the social ladder and more are seeing the United States as it really is. It's a true miracle that such has not happened sooner - but at least it's likely to continue. There is solace and hope in that much. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by bae
Whatever I or you think about the victim is irrelevant. Someone who murders a helpless man and runs away strikes me as the opposite of heroic. That he does it for reasons of some twisted ideology of his own devising strikes me as the opposite of principled. That you would admire someone who would butcher someone in the street because you feel he shares your hatred of your vision of America is the opposite of healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Human lives were spared by this heroic and long overdue act. I vote for sparing human life against capitalism and the United States. YMMV. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
And I DON'T support Luigi for sharing my view of America. I support him for murdering someone who was directly responsible for murdering many others via using AI to illegally deny patient claims. One murder, yes - but who knows how many lives have been spared from AI and from profit being God and human life meaning nothing in this country if one is not wealthy? I see this murder as a positive development and the start of potential real justice in the United States......bet you gun control FINALLY gets passed when a few more CEO meet consequences for their illegal evil. Thank God! RobQuote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
Human lives have been spared? Hunh. How do you figure that?
I just figure another corporate drone will take his place and continue on in the typical policies of United Healthcare. I guess you have insider information. So spill it.
also, it’s funny to me how often you’re mentioning “AI.” Would United Healthcare’s actions be less egregious if they were working with old fashion tools, and no “AI?”
Disgusting IMO. One person does not constitute an organization. He is a murderer and, hopefully, will be tried as such.
I find this discussion disturbing. The perp is not a hero. Likely mental issues and major anger issues.
The victim was a human being with a mother, a family I imagine. Maybe despicable in his position, but who next do you approve for extermination?
okay----Giuseppe DiFalcone or whatever---was set up by a conspiracy to take the rap. Here he is speaking to the media as the cops escort him to his cell. (see photo). I can tell that he's shouting: "I'm just a patsy!" Yup. Attachment 6132
It may get some needed attention, but the act in itself was inexcusable. The young man will most likely be spending the rest of an otherwise productive life in prison. He has mental problems.
I read that part of his life experience that may have contributed to his seemingly very contradictory behavior (valedictorian, well-liked, no trouble with the law, etc.) is the fact that he had back surgery that left. him in pain most of the time. One commentator said that he might have been taking medications that may have triggered some mental illness.Quote:
Originally Posted by KayLR
My opinion is a) the violent murder is terrible and unwarranted. The angry mob behind Mangione metaphorically storming the Bastille of the "greedy capitalist machine" is a sign of troubled times. I think there is more to come as people become more and more fed up with rising wealth inequality and lack of faith in our leaders.
This morning I read an analysis of Jose Ortega y Gasset's Revolt of the Masses by Ted Goia (boy, I love Substack--so many insightful writers on it!) I first read this book way back in college in my Philosophy of Crisis class,, and Goia draws parallels between the culture of the "mass man" described in the book, and today. I don't have time to summarize it right now--I will be doing interviews for evil Big Pharma all day--but if anyone is interested, you can google Revolt of the Masses or read Goia's analysis here: https://www.honest-broker.com/p/15-o...-the-new-phase
This IS a disturbing conversation, yes. I find myself alone in my take once more. So given that I couldn't sleep, I looked over my take once again. At this point I ask - so how many patient deaths due to AI rejecting claims are acceptable? Why is Brian Thompson's life worth more than those of innocent policyholders?
I can see being against cold blooded murder on a NYC street - but was not Brian Thompson HIMSELF guilty of murder? Why the free pass? Something else that strikes me is that the very nature of US capitalism itself created this murder as the system let AI deny claims/cause patient deaths. Remember that - the much cherished US free market found using AI to deny patient claims perfectly acceptable - you'all are OK with that?
And yes, I DO wish that the very nature of the United States itself did not create such situations. Rob
I am fascinated by Rob’s obsession with AI in using it in denying health insurance claims.
Fair point, IL. I find AI being used to reject claims not only borderline Hitlerian but also.the perfect example of why the United States is not only far from the best deal but also non-viable overall for all but the wealthy. I also find it absolutely terrifying that some Americans are OK with AI being used this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
But at least in this one case the consequences of the United States sifted upwards. Here's hoping this continues - preferably minus loss of life. Rob
But murder is the ultimate Hitlerian act. Don't you get that?
Yes. I consider the late Brian Thompson very much Hitlerian with his AI claims denying software mercilessly and illegally causing innocent patient deaths. Cold blooded murder on a NYC street is not something to celebrate per se, no - But Brian Thompson and turbo charged capitalism drew first blood. Good riddance! RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Tybee
Where we once looked up to leaders and felt that they had our interests in mind, now the words you hear to describe today's power structure are "oligarchy" "corporatocracy," "out-of-touch elites" and "meglomania."
As far as the AI claim denial, there are strict policies written for every drug approved and covered by insurance companies. So, if there is a criterion (like, the patient has to first try and fail standard of care) that triggers an automatic denial, there are systems in place to appeal. AI seems like a sub-human way to sift through all those initial claims, but, Rob, you have to also consider that appeals are routine. If doctors try for a drug and they can't get it, they can call for a review. Of course this takes time and doctors don't like to have to do it.
I sound like an apologist for the insurance companies, and I'm not. You know I hate the system. I'm just explaining that AI has simply taken over the rote work of other low level staff members working at insurance companies. As far as I know, anyway. But is it fundamentally messed up that 3rd party corporate profit drives treatment decisions? Yes.
Well, I sorta get where Rob is coming from (and his obsession w AI use seems akin to IL's obsession with trans people.. many of us have our own hot-button issues) - it does seem more cold blooded when there's no human involved. I read/heard somewhere today that 90% of denials are reversed on appeal. That is ridiculous, and points to a very arbitrary and broad use of denials without much reason. The problem with appeals is that they seem really daunting, especially when you, or your loved one, is really hurting and scared. I know, I've done some for DH. It can be exhausting. The insurance industry KNOWS how daunting it seems, and they plan on that keeping a large number of people from appealing to start with. And that is unconscionable. Maybe the good to come out of this murder will be the start of a change in our values - human life over profits. But more likely, it will lead to a smattering of breast beating, and either the resumption of the status quo, or an upswell of violence against whomever the mob focuses on next. I don't have great hopes at the moment.
Haha I thought of Rob’s obsession in line with mine, but I would call his “ healthcare in America” with AI being just a small part.
No they weren’t. All this sad little narcissist accomplished was to add to the sum total of human misery. While any number of internet ghouls can get their jollies gloating over the death of this man, it wasn’t a bold blow struck against “capitalism and the United States”. It was a vile act committed by a sick mind hoping for the applause of other sick minds, that will change nothing outside the victim’s family.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
I don't seem to recall Brian Thompson being arraigned and tried by a jury. Or offered any sort of due process.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
So, no, he was not guilty of murder.
The alleged assassin will be offered these due process rights though.
Do you wish to set aside rule of law?
We know he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I’m curious why New York is only charging him with second degree murder.
The UK's NHS is generally ranked as one of the best public healthcare systems on earth. My daughter lives in the UK, and is quite a fan.
Yet, as they do not have unlimited resources, they ration care, and people suffer, and sometimes die, as a result.
Is that violence? Should the people who run it be executed by V-for-Vendetta folk-heroes on the streets of London? (I mean, they have irritating weapons policies in the UK, so the execution would probably have to be done with a narwhal tusk, but those are easy to come by there.)
I understand it is somewhat common to undercharge in the initial stages of a criminal arrest/prosecution. Especially when they are still working on the investigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
I’m surprised to hear so much complaining about the increasingly broken public health system in Canada. Their long waits and non treatment plans are resulting in pain, worsening conditions, death.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
edited to add: I mean I’m hearing complaints on other forums. Most Canadians seem to have like their healthcare system, but I think that outlook is changing, or has changed in recent years since Covid.
Although I don't plan to read it, it would be interesting to hear an unbiased report on the book in question. Sales are probably surging. I imagine on one side there is a stream of hoaxers trying to scam the insurance industry with fake claims, which results in innocent honest people being punished. And there is greed on the other side of the issue in profits for stockholders. I think the model some conservatives would like to see is more privatization of health insurance whereby competition would favor good insurances and the opposite. In a system with few major players or possibly collusion of prices, it's unlikely to me.
I suppose in some religious dogma, killing seems to have some level of acceptability.
This may be of interest:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ociety/680961/
Or, if you don't have access, the archive.is version:
https://archive.is/wiOzz
I’m half Canadian. Grew up in the Detroit area. Even in the 80s, there were articles about Canadian OBs not taking new patients and women were coming to the US to have their kids because they could actually find a doctor.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
Older relatives needing knee replacements had to wait 2-3 years. One knee was done, then 2-3 years for the next one.
A friend lives in New Brunswick. She tells me there is no such thing as getting a GP doctor appt. All the doctor’s offices are like urgent care here. You go and wait until you’re seen.
I have to admit that Canadian health care has taken a dive, yes, and rationing is nothing to celebrate. Neither, however, are patient deaths due to AI denying patient legitimate patient claims in the US. The United States of America has absolutely no room nor right to speak in this area. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Tradd
Good call, IL. I agree, health care is my obsessive topic. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
This kind of logic is Pure T evil. You have appointed yourself judge, jury, and executioner. If you can't see that, I really think you ought to re-examine your moral compass.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
Decivilization, not a good thing. Good article.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
Perhaps Thompson was the real folk hero?
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/12...luigi-mangione
Rare good sense from the NYT.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae