Estrogen and animal products (long)

I have eliminated animal products from my diet in order to improve my health by reducing the amount of excess estrogen in my body. Its working really well and I feel better than I have in a very long time except that I hate eating this way. Food consumption has gone from being a great pleasure to an obligation I wish I could get rid of. I eat because its required of me and I am never truely satisfied for any legnth of time. I miss meat and cheese and oh, what I would do for a bowl of ice cream!

I've tried many vegan substitutes and some work better than others. I'm willing to keep at this because I'm healthier but I wonder if its necessary. Does anyone have any information on the estrogen levels of animals that are truely farm raised vs factory farm products? We fill animals with so many growth hormones and antibiotics to get them to a kill weight as quickly as possible. I'm wondering if I had a few chickens out back, eating healthy chicken food and allowed to live a "normal" life, if I could eat the eggs without issue? Or if I found a good source of cows milk, can I make yogurt, cheese, and ice cream that aren't so unhealthy? People have been eating animals for years and managed to live long, healthy lives so I feel like the problem has to do with how we treat the animals these days not in the consumption of animal products.

I'm looking for suggestions, personal experiences, book titles, etc on how I might re-incorporate animal products as part of a healthy diet.

Thanks.

I recommend Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, along with works in the paleo nutrition genre. Also, Lierre Keith's The Vegetarian Myth makes for provocative reading. A lot of research and life experience have convinced me that what is generally touted as a healthy diet by the government, PETA, and grain producers is anything but.

I've never worried about "excess estrogen," though I guess if there was a family history of estrogen-dependent cancer, it might be a concern. For what it's worth, I'd wager high-carbohydrate diets were more germane to cancer growth (See Otto Warburg and the 2004 Harvard-Mexico study http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0806094822.htm).

Quote:

---

I have eliminated animal products from my diet in order to improve my health by reducing the amount of excess estrogen in my body.

---

I have not heard this theory. Now fat itself can generate estrogen so if you lose weight there will be less estrogen generated by fat (might be why it's a good idea to have a little bit of chub if one is menopausal - not to be obese or anything like that but .... maybe not to be skin and bones either)

Quote:

---

Its working really well and I feel better than I have in a very long time except that I hate eating this way. Food consumption has gone from being a great pleasure to an obligation I wish I could get rid of. I eat because its required of me and I am never truely satisfied for any legnth of time.

---

Well are you trying to do low fat as well? Because yes that is a pleasureless diet! No animal products and no fat, oh that's a hard one. I guess one could eat non-fat sweets for pleasure, but that's definitely not healthy. If you are allowed fat, look into mediteranian dishes (of course by no means all vegan but a few are - boatloads of olive oil - makes veggies yummy for sure! Veggies cooked with fat can definitely be tasty, bean dishes are better with some fat etc). That said I think having some animal products in the diet is healthier than none. No fish even? You really think fish raises estrogen? Like I said this is all a new theory to me. Animal protein as such?

Feeling better than you have in a long time may not mean you have to be on such a strict diet. If you went from junk food omnivore to health food vegan of course you'll feel better. Maybe just eating more veggies in general helps and you could still have some animal protien here and there. Also you may have had alergies to something like dairy and something like that may be what you really need to eliminate rather than everything.

Quote:

---

We fill animals with so many growth hormones and antibiotics to get them to a kill weight as quickly as possible.

---

definitely think meat raised more healthifully and fed less junk is healthier.

Quote:

---

Or if I found a good source of cows milk, can I make yogurt, cheese, and ice cream that aren't so unhealthy?

---

Well I'm not sure about this but I think to the extent animal products are tied to anything unhealthy I think it's mostly dairy and red meat. Dairy possibly with ovarian cancer. Red meat to colon cancer. Hope others here have more information for you. But of course organic, pasture raised, etc. animal products are much purer than industrial animal products. I have no doubts about that.

I'm no help with your specific question, but I am pretty much vegan and have been for a few years. I hardly give it a thought any more and have very few cravings. Occationally, if I'm invited as a guest for dinner, I'll eat what is served without making an issue out of it, and might have ice cream twice a year, so I'm not super Nazi about it. There's that old saying that what we resist persists and it's helpful to relieve the desire occationally at first. I actually avoid restaurants most of the time because I like the diet I've chosen more. It's lifetime of eating habits that have to change and it just takes a while.

I buy rice or soy cheese which is decent cheese substitue. And there are various meatless products that have the texture and some flavor of their meat counter parts. From those I can have things like tacos, cheeseburgers, spagetti and meatballs, or even lunchmeat sandwiches that are meatless. The meatless chicken products aren't too bad. Especially when doing the transition away from meat, those might help.

Ok this is what I think I know. Yes fat stores excess estrogen instead of allowing it to be removed from the body. We get estrogen from own bodies but also through the eating of animal products such as milk and meat. I'm really paraphrashing here but sources such as Dr. Mcdougall explain this it great detail. Also, the fact that we don't allow animals to reproduce and grow to maturity without chemicals the increase this rate also affect us. Think about the old saying: The higher up the food chain, the more toxics in the food source. Lots of little diseased fish can make the big fish sick if it eats too many of them.

I am not eating low fat. I am trying to eat healthy but frankly eat anything that qualifies as vegan to fill me eating desires/needs. Beans, grains, veggies, mock meats, fruits-anything and everything as well as junk food (sweets and chips for example) if it qualifies as vegan.

Without too many gory details I am a middle aged woman who has been suffering increasingly from menstrual problems. I have seen a doctor and been told that its related to too much estrogen in my body. I'm over weight but consumption of animal products increases the problem. If I requested it, they would probably consider a hysterectomy but I am 100% against it. Why remove something unnecessarily if I can allow it to heal and function properly? My problem is to the point I can barely work at times because I'm so sick. Vomiting using the bathroom, challenges of just keeping myself clean, etc. Not to mention painful ovulation and moodiness that is extreme at times. Well, maybe that is too many details!

Anyways, since I went vegan I can cycle without any real issues. I don't even need pain meds! No vomiting, my husband isn't sleeping in the garage, I'm not missing work, etc.

Maybe I'm just having a bad week with the cravings. Maybe in a day or two tofu scrambles and kale are gonna sound good. I just was wondering if I was pushing myslef harder than necessary based on someone else experience. The last few days I have felt like I'd do just about anything for some serious animal derived protein.

I won't be back for a day or two-work won't allow me to hang out on the computer but I look forward to your further responses.

Been there, done that. In the end, nothing I ate or drank really made much difference in alleviation of symptoms. If it did, it was probably in my head.
All that helped me was sheer determination to get through the process without surgery. I would not deny yourself meat and cheese if they make you feel better but I would stick to grass fed beef and organic dairy products and in eat in moderation. Being overweight might be contibuting to problems though.

I will say that if you follow good old Doc MacDougall, as I once did, your troubles will likely be over soon because your menstrual periods will stop dead in their tracks. Starvation at the cellular level will do that for you. (Do I sound jaded? Guilty.) Perimenopause can be--literally--a pain. If I were you, I'd read and experiment. And speaking only for myself, tofu scrambles and kale will never, ever, sound good.

Well it could just be the result of weight loss (have you lost weight on a vegan diet?). If so maybe as long as you can keep from gaining the weight back ...

Or maybe it is eating soy (there is an phyto-estrogenic influence there, though it can be good or bad, it's playing with fire and such things are not so clear, as in it can make the pain better or worse (often does make it worse, recent studies seem to show so), but if it works for you ....). Many a fake meat is made out of soy. Or maybe it is just eating more fiber (which does eliminate excess estrogen from the body and yes plant foods have fiber and animal foods do not) but as long as you eat lots of veggies you'll get enough.

Also there may be an inflamatory aspect. Vegetables, olive oil etc. are all anti-inflamatory. From my understanding, meat can be inflamatory, but fish isn't. But this is a question of balance, as in having a some meat as long as it's well balanced with veggies etc. should be ok. And yes simple junk carbs are inflamatory.

If you don't think any of this is the case and know that even a little animal products cause pain, I can't argue with that experience. That's a pretty powerful experience.

I started having menstral cramps when I became a vegan and they never went away (even though I eat everything now). This was when I was in my early 20s so no I don't at all think it was due to age. :laff: But the correlation with going vegan was unmistakable.

Body fat, especially belly fat, produces estrogen, as others have said. The foods that produce belly fat are simple carbohydrates, especially refined carbohydrates, and of the simple carbs sugars and white flour are the most fattening. Neither weight nor BMI is a good measure of either body fat % or belly fat; for this you need a personal evaluation by a more precise method. This is a nice overview of food and belly fat: http://www.livestrong.com/article/35...&utm_medium=a1.

This link has some interesting information about estrogen and cancer: http://foodforbreastcancer.com/news/...endent-cancers.

Feedlot beef animals are routinely dosed with high levels of estrogen to increase their fattening rate (what feedlots produce is not so much meat as it is fat; fat gives tenderness and flavour, so literally tons of fat are trimmed from carcasses and discarded each year). Grassfed animals are not implanted with estrogen pellets. In countries which do not feedlot their beef, the estrogen levels in the meat are almost zero. Interesting how the authors' prejudice manifests: cut out beef and pork, despite almost zero estrogen content in pastured animals and eat pastured poultry, whose estrogen content is no lower! The supply of grassfed-to-finish beef, as well as pastured pork, and pastured chicken, is growing. Note that the authors of this paper suggest the high estrogen content in US chicken to be due to the high content of soy in their feed; soy is very rich in phytoestrogens, which bind to the same estrogen receptors as those used by our very own home-grown versions, so it will have the same effects as oversupply of estrogen from our own ovaries or belly fat. Men with excess belly fat often develop man boobs, because they're now pumping out estrogen at levels higher than can be balanced by testosterone and androgen.

This link has a table showing the relative content of phytoestrogens in common foods: http://www.feedstuffsfoodlink.com/ME...9746173644359A.

For balance, it's good to know that contraceptive pills max out at 50 micrograms/day of estrogen. A single soy burger is giving you as much estrogen as 88.6 contraceptive pills in one gulp; I wouldn't risk it myself.

We're told over and over that the Japanese eat large amounts of soy, and it does no harm, but rather good. However, what these chirpy tales always leave out is that the Japanese eat nearly all of their soy in the fermented state, they usually eat less of it than Westerners, and they eat it with copious amounts of fish broth made from heads and tails, seaweed, and pork broth. Further, the Japanese have specialized gut bacteria which digest the seaweed for them, which non-Japanese do not have; there could well be other gut bacteria and genes adapting them to soy, which have not yet been identified.

Returning to the hormone-dependent cancers: Dr. Gott and associates (Life Without Bread) found a strong association between carbohydrate content of the diet and cancer development. Of course, correlation is not causation.

There are sources of estrogen-mimics apart from food, like plastic water bottles: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...326100714.htm; clingwrap is not innocent either: http://www.calisafe.org/_disc1/00000066.htm.

Eatwild.com is a good source of information on nutritional benefits of pastured livestock. As Jane has already said, sample the paleo diet communities; I like huntgatherlove.com and http://rawfoodsos.com/ as well. Dr. Gott's Life Without Bread is another must-read on my list of recommendations.

My personal shtick is that humans are so variable that each of us has to research our own body, and work out from observation and experimentation what works for us personally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

I will say that if you follow good old Doc MacDougall, as I once did, your troubles will likely be over soon because your menstrual periods will stop dead in their tracks. Starvation at the cellular level will do that for you. (Do I sound jaded? Guilty.) Perimenopause can be--literally--a pain. If I were you, I'd read and experiment. And speaking only for myself, tofu scrambles and kale will never, ever, sound good.

---

With all due sincere respect to my good friends Jane and Suzanne, with whom I occasionally debate on this topic (as I personally feel that there are global benefits to vegetarianism/veganism, notwithstanding the individual differences people may have), I think the OP has already found that veganism is working for her. Her question is, how to transition her palate and her diet into something that makes eating more pleasurable.

This is a common issue with people who transition away from their comfort foods. I became vegetarian over an extended period of time--first commiting to only eating meat at one meal a day; then determining that whenever I had the option (like in a restaurant) I would always go for the vegetarian offering; then I made a full commitment not eating any red meat or poultry.

When you do it slowly, your palate slowly evolves and adjusts. I used to hate nuts with a passion; now I honestly love them. I used to really hate the consistency of beans; now, I love bean soups, bean chili, bean almost anything.

To speed up the process, I would begin by acknowledging that vegetarian food is not a punishment, despite what Jane says. It's just a matter of experimentation in cooking and eating different things. You also must acknowledge the body's cravings for fat. If you don't get that (and of course when you stop eating factory farmed red meat, that's a big fat deficit right there), you are going to have cravings.

So I would say, make sure you're eating the right amount of fat: add a bit of dark chocolate, avocado, etc--I would definitely say add some organic chicken or grass-fed beef for sure and your ideas for eggs, yogurt and cheese are great.

Some cuisines like Indian, Mediterranean, and Japanese have super tasty meatless stuff. Jane, you may not like tofu scrambles and kale, but I make a fantastic miso soup with tofu AND kale. If you do get organic chicken, of course there is a world of possibility there with getting the best of both worlds--good health and good, familiar meals.

Good luck with it.

I was perfectly happy with the food I ate as a vegetarian--ethnic foods of all kinds. I enjoyed meat analogs like veggie burgers, so didn't really miss the real thing. It was the constant hunger and subsequent weight gain--a product of high insulin levels--the lethargy and roller-coaster blood sugars that finally sank my "Eat food, mostly plants." regime. I lasted six or seven years, but it's an experiment I wish I had nipped a few months in. As always, YMMV.

Actually, Catherine, the OP's question had to do with low-estrogen animal products that she could safely add back to her diet, hence my reply with information on such products.

While some people do very well on vegan diets, it is undeniably true that some do not. The OP said clearly she is unhappy with her current diet, and it has been pointed out that her health gains may be as much due to weight loss and reduction in junk foods as to veganism. She is conscious of health improvement, and wants to maintain good health. There's more than one way to do that clever thing! In the end, the OP will read the replies, check out the links, be aware of her own body's needs and responses, and craft her own health plan.

We have previously debated the global benefits of veganism, and I stand by my previous statements that veganism is a good option for reducing environmental harm if and only if the vegan is eating locally. The vegan who eats summer fruit in winter, flown in from the southern hemisphere, is as much a contributor to global warming as the SAD eater who chomps steak from CAFOs; if the lentils come from India, the quinoa from Peru, and the soyburgers are made from a mishmash of stuff that crisscrosses the USA multiple times before hitting the vegan's grill, the vegan's carbon and human misery footprint could be far larger than that of the conscientious omnivore. The vegan who chugs acai berry juice is a serious contributor to rainforest destruction, as each acai tree produces only 8kg of berries per year. A hungry farmer is not going to think twice before taking a chainsaw to the forest in order to plant a monoculture of acai, exactly as has happened with peanuts, cacao, palm oil, coffee, and countless other bubbles that trashed the local environment and economy, leaving everything worse off than before. In the same way, a conscientious omnivore eating locally and seasonally can have a positive impact on global ecological and economic conditions.

Oh gosh, I don't want to start the old debate again! I think that what works best varies from person to person and I don't want to be the source of anything negative.

To set a few things straight:
1. I've lost no more than 8 lbs eating this way.
2. I am getting a much higher amount of soy in my diet through various sources.
3. I am definitely not eating low fat or a junk free diet. Hummus and full fat tortilla chips, cookies, vegan margerine, etc. These things are my friends!

This experience has been challenging but totally do-able until the last three days when its seemed as though I hit a brick wall. My cravings have been extreme and no food substitution was satisfying. I'm an ex smoker-I know what will power is. I haven't had a cigarette in 12-13 years now. This sudden urge for meat has been intense. Dh cooked a turkey for work last night (something I could normally care less about) and it took everything I had not to start eating straight from the pan with my fingers. Frankly, part of me finds this humorous. I mean, I have to laugh at myself because its just food for god's sake.

So this morning I awake to signs that I might be ovulating and the cravings have subsided. So maybe this is just an ugly hormonal fluctuation? I don't know. I do feel like I'm back to the point I can continue with my experiment.

I feel so much healthier in just the past several weeks. I was to the point where I would take vicodin for menstural cramps and ovulation would give me pains that would cause me to gasp out loud when I least expected it. Last month I didn't take any meds at all. I can give up a lot if my quality of life continues to improve.

At the same time, I love a good steak, cheesy pizza and bowl of ice cream as much as the next person and the vegan subs are never, ever gonna match the real thing! I'd love to find a middle ground that will work as a long term solution. I told myself when I started this I was going to give it 6 months and decide what was next for me.

Suzanne: thank you for all the links and suggested reading. I need to read up on this so that I can attempt to make an informed decision about my long term eating habits.

One question I have about the paleo/low carb lifestyle-what are your concerns about things like heart disease, colon and reproductive cancers? There are a lot of statistics out there that claim that animal products greatly increase your chances of having these types of problems. Is there a difference between grass fed animals and feed lot animals when you look at these things? I have spent years looking at this from the "be a vegan or else" point of view that my mind is clouded when it comes to other info.

Please, I'd love to debate this a bit more if we could keep it to spefic bodily reprecussions and not about saving the world. We all know those issues but at the moment I'm feeling selfish and concerned about my body and health-not the planet's.

Thanks again for all the input. I'm going to go back and read it all again to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Hi BKE, I haven't abandoned you! I have midterms starting Friday, and have had a UTI - the antibiotics knocked me flat for three days, so I fell behind..

You've asked about heart disease, colon, and reproductive cancer. These are very valid concerns, which certainly require discussion. I will get back as soon as possible. In the meantime, I strongly recommend Gary Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories." This is a pretty hefty book, but it is science-based; 5 years in the writing! Also, Malcolm Kendrick and Uffe Ravnskov (both have online presence) for material about heart disease. Another great source of information: "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston Price.

Pubmed.gov has a lot of information freely available; type in a keyword and prepare to be there for hours!

The Seventh Day Adventists are frequently cited as healthy - the Blue Zones book quotes the SDA spokesperson as saying that SDAs get all the same ailments as the general population, just a few years later than average. Also, studies on Latter Day Saints (Mormons) who follow very much the same lifestyle as SDAs, outlive SDAs handily despite Mormons eating meat and dairy products.

Most studies concluding that meat is bad for you appear to be drawn from samples who are eating the Standard American Diet, high in starch, sugar, and industrial seed oils. All three of these are proven harmful to health. Corn oil is very strongly associated with breast cancer, for example. Sugar has been known to be a potent cause of colon cancer since the 1940s. Refined starches generate belly fat through their ability to spike triglyceride production. It may not be the patty in the burger that's at fault - it could be the sugar-laden refined-starch bun, the sugar-laden dressing, and the potatoes fried in rancid seed oil.

Quote:

---

This sudden urge for meat has been intense. Dh cooked a turkey for work last night (something I could normally care less about) and it took everything I had not to start eating straight from the pan with my fingers. Frankly, part of me finds this humorous. I mean, I have to laugh at myself because its just food for god's sake.

---

Weird. Years of vegetarianism and I never had any cravings for meat. On a low fat diet I did have crazy fat cravings.

Nowdays what I'll crave: sweets ocassionally ok, but it seems more often that that I'll get a craving for sour cream and things will lots of mayonaise. I eat adequate fat and still crave fat of the junkiest sort sometimes. Ah well :)

I think my body is just still adjusting from years of shall we say, different, eating habits. Those strong temptations seem to have passed for the moment.

For what it's worth, I don't think an occasional all natural chicken or egg would destroy your goals. Dairy and beef are notoriously hormonal though.

You may be getting more estrogen-like hormones in the large amounbt of soy products you eat then from having an occasional piece of cheese or butter (i.e. fat).

Are estrogens naturally occurring in all animal products? Are there estrogens in organic dairy products?

Estrogen in chicken and beef may be contributing to hormone-dependent cancers
Posted: May 23, 2010

News type:
Breast cancer study
Conference:
American Society of Clinical Oncology Meeting, June 2010
Study name:
Does dietary estrogen intake from meat relate to the incidence of hormone-dependent cancers?

A new study to be presented in early June at the American Society of Clinical Oncology annual meeting in Chicago has reported that U.S. chicken and beef contain relatively high levels of estrogen. Estrogen in oral contraceptive pills has been reported to contribute to the incidence of hormone-dependent cancers in women. However, there appears to be very little discussion concerning dietary estrogen from meat in relation to cancer incidence. In the study, concentrations of estradiol-17β (E2) and estrone (E1) were measured in beef produced in the U.S. and Japan (40 samples each), and chicken produced in the U.S., Japan, and Brazil (25 samples each). Fat and muscle meat were examined separately. For comparison, the authors also analyzed fat tissues of 25 postmenopausal Japanese women.

Estrogen levels were found to be higher in fat than in muscle meat. Median concentrations (picograms per gram (pg/g)) of estrogen in Japanese chicken fat (E2 = 21.1, E1 = 65.7) and in U.S. chicken fat (20.7, 54.6) were the highest of the samples assessed. U.S. beef fat also had a relatively high level (14.0, 7.7). However, Japanese beef red meat (0.0, 0.1) and Brazilian chicken muscle meat (0.2, 0.4) were found to incorporate nearly zero levels of estrogen, and the estrogen levels in their fat were also low. The high E2 levels in Japanese and U.S. chicken exceeded the levels found in the fat of Japanese women (16.3). On the other hand, levels in meat with low estrogen content were a hundred times lower than in human fat.

The authors comment that the high estrogen concentrations in Japanese and U.S. chicken, as well as U.S. beef, have been attributed to the residue of external estrogen in the feed given to the livestock. [B]The nearly zero level found in Japanese beef and Brazilian chicken may be considered the natural amount found in meat without estrogen supplementation.[/B] The estrogen levels found in U.S. chicken and beef are much lower than those of contraceptive pills. However, estrogen intake from meat consumption cannot be dismissed as a factor governing human health, according to the authors, considering lifetime exposure to such meat. The authors conclude that dietary estrogen intake from meat might promote estrogen accumulation in the human body and could influence the incidence of hormone-dependent cancers.

Comments concerning the study

Some may find the study results surprising with respect to chicken since currently there no hormones approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for poultry. However, estrogen may be introduced in the form of soy protein and animal protein meal in chicken feed and possibly other sources. Based on the available evidence, breast cancer patients, survivors and those at high risk should consider avoiding beef and pork and limited their poultry consumption to organically grown birds, preferably raised without soy-based feed and in humane conditions.
Tags: beef, breastCancerRisk, chicken, estradiol, estrone, foods, Japanese, Latina

Formatting added by me!

Note that this paper suggests that the high estrogen content of US beef and poultry meat and fat may be caused by the high soy content of the feed. Chickens and cattle not supplemented in this way have almost zero estrogen content in their tissues. To me it looks pretty simple - boycott CAFO animal products and buy locally from a humane, sustainable, pasture-based operation.

Regarding dairy produce: there are farmers who do not use hormones to keep milk surging. Again, pasture-based is going to have a much better profile, especially of fats. Any pregnant mammal produces estrogen. The ideal would be milk from perennial dairy cows; these are cows who give birth, are milked for four years, dried off, and impregnated. A cow does not have to give birth every year to produce milk; as long as feed supply is adequate and demand is ongoing, she will continue to lactate.

Very interesting abstract, Suzanne - thanks for posting.
For those unfamiliar with the units in the abstract, the concentration is given as picograms/g for the meats. A picogram is 10^(-12)g. A 100-g serving of the Japanese chicken fat (the highest concentration in the abstract) noted would have 0.00000000657 g of estrogen, compared to the birth control pill of 0.035g per tablet (that number from this version of the abstract: http://www.asco.org/ASCOv2/Meetings/...stractID=49420). However, this is magnified over a lifetime of exposure as noted, and is clearly unnecessary exposure as well, since other meats had zero (or at detection limits, which were not noted).

Thanks for doing the figures, Rosemary! This study here has a rather eye-popping chart http://www.feedstuffsfoodlink.com/ME...9746173644359A. Phytoestrogens work like estrogen; although they're described as "weak', again the lifetime exposure should be considered. Running one's eye down the table, the soy products leap out.

This is from the book The McDougall Program for Women:

"Plants produce chemical compounds that have powerful anticancer effects. Among these are a group of chemicals collectively referred to as phytoestrogens. These are weak estrogens that compete with the cancer-promoting estrogens in a woman's body for the estrogen receptor sites in the cells of her breasts, uterus, ovaries, and other tissues. By occupying these estrogen receptor sites, these safe phytoestrogens decrease hormone stimulation of tissues and thus inhibit the growth of cancer."

This is the most convienent source for me to quote at the moment but I have seen the same information in other places as well. According to those who are pro-vegan, plant estrogens are better for us then animal estrogens if in no other way than being weaker and less dangerous. So I'm wondering how much of these phytoestogens are safe? For how long?

Someone like myself, who is trying to reduce the estrogen in my body, is better off eating a weaker source of estrogen, at least for the time being. That doesn't mean there isn't a better long-term solution. That frankly, is what I'm trying to find.

Jane, do you think that there is any chance that you just took things too far for your body by going so low fat and vegan? What kinds of animal products do you eat now and what percentage of your diet do they make up? I don't doubt for a second the things that you say about it being very negative for you. I agree that a no fat diet is an unhealthy diet. Also, I have read about other ex-vegans who feel much healthier after returning to eating meat so I consider the information you offer as valid and very much worth considering.

I have read information about people who do well on a low carb/high protien diet. My understanding is that some of them even have better cholesterol and trygliceride numbers eating this way. It almost seems as though you can have carbs or animal proteins but not both.

Suzanne, I don't understand the negativity of vegetable oils such as the reference to corn oil. Is it just a problem with rancidity? Or is there a problem with most/all vegetable oils?

Those of you who eat animal products, how do you go about providing yourself with grass fed, naturally raised foods at an affordable price? The few things I see at the co-op are horribly expensive! And how are you confident that you're getting what you pay for and not simply factory farmed foods with a different label? Please don't give me the ole "its cheaper than the medical bills" line. I get that.

Ok. There are so many more things to discuss but I'll stop for now and wait for responses. Thanks to all of you who are participating in this conversation.

BKE, I've twice written a reply that has disappeared into a black hole. This is only a test!

First, while plant estrogens may be weaker, they’re so abundant in soy products that their concentration could well have very significant effects, especially long-term. For example, a half-cup of dairy milk gives you 18 ug, while the same amount of soy milk gives you 6,028 ug. 100 g (3.5 oz) of beef fat gives you 19 ug estrogen, a soy burger of the same weight provides 4,430 ug. Dairy ice cream provides 16 ug estrogen, soy ice-cream a whopping 13,494 ug. My point is that if you want to lower your body estrogen, soy products may not be the best way to go!

MacDougall ascribes his success to the simple absence of meat, without considering that the ban on processed foods, industrial seed oils, white flour, and sugar, along with insisting that smokers quit their habit, probably also has major beneficial effects. The only way he could be sure about the no-meat hypothesis would be if he randomized people into replicates of 3 groups. One would continue to eat their usual diet but give up smoking; one would continue to eat animal products while observing all other dietary restrictions, and the third would cut out animal products while observing all dietary restrictions, i.e. eat vegan. You need multiple repeats of the grouping to iron out environmental influences. If, after a long-term period (many of these studies last only a couple of weeks!), ALL groups eating no animal products were significantly healthier than the other two groups, then there would be grounds for some confidence in the vegan diet.

The Paleo and Low-Carb communities also report very impressive health improvements. They also ban processed foods, flour, sugar, and seed oils, and – like MacDougall’s groups – they don’t smoke. Many of them don’t drink alcohol either.

The title of this talk is a little provocative; “How To Win An Argument With a Vegetarian.” If you can get past that, I strongly recommend it – it’s well-researched and put together. http://vimeo.com/27792352

Now for seed oils: Most of these are produced by heating to very high temperatures, as well as exposure to noxious chemicals like hexane that dissolve the oil. The process makes the oils rancid; in order to sell them, manufacturers have to bleach and deodorize their products. Again, some of the chemicals used are not particularly friendly. The oils are stored in clear plastic bottles, often for long periods, and we already know that estrogenic compounds leach out of plastic bottles into drinking water, so they very likely leach into vegetable oil as well. Light is a potent energy source, and the strong lighting of supermarkets could well trigger chemical reactions in the oils that would not be healthy.

Corn and sunflower oils are implicated in not only breast cancer, but also cancers of the colon and prostate.
http://foodforbreastcancer.com/foods/corn-oil http://ebm.rsmjournals.com/content/229/10/1017.full
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...e-cancer-study
http://www.livestrong.com/article/33...sunflower-oil/
http://foodforbreastcancer.com/foods/sunflower-oil

There is a school of thought that suggests that the carcinogenic effects of seed oils may be their high content of omega-6s and low content of omega-3. However, olive oil is protective against cancer, and it is low in omega-3. The protective effect could be because it’s easy to extract olive oil with pressure alone, or at low temperatures. The damaging effect of seed oils could also be due to the manufacturing process. I use only extra-virgin cold-pressed olive oil, I keep it in glass bottles, and I keep it in a cool, dark, cupboard.

Carl Felton’s examination of aortic plaques showed that only 26% of the gunk was saturated fat; the rest was unsaturated, and most of it was polyunsaturated. Analysis of body fat showed that most of it was polyunsaturated. Felton suggests that the unstable polyunsaturates easily undergo chemical reactions in the body which allow the LDL to penetrate arterial tissue, setting up inflammation. Inflammation is now thought to be a major driver in developing CAD. For what it’s worth, I had to take my dog to a specialist veterinarian, and this guy told me that the inflammation molecule is almost identical to that of a polyunsaturated fat molecule. He said my dog was to have no sugar, flour, or seed oil.

Now, affordability. I buy grassfed beef from Marin Sun Farms at a local deli/butchery at $5.99/lb for Diamond Jim cuts, and I also get Australian beef from Trader Joe’s - $4.99/lb for stewing beef, $5.99 for ground beef. Trader Joe’s sometimes supplies pastured poultry. While the upfront cost looks horrendous, analysis shows that it’s not as bad as it seems! I worked out that the cost per ounce of cooked meat either breaks even or is lower than that of CAFO products. For instance, a pastured chicken weights 6 – 7lb while a supermarket chicken weighs around 3, yet the carcasses (bones!) weigh the same. CAFO meat is often loaded with fat – a supermarket chicken may have nearly a cup of fat in the body cavity, while a pastured bird has very little. Pastured birds, because they’re not mainlined corn and soy, are pink, not yellow, because there’s so little subcutaneous fat. Grassfed beef is a darker red, has less marbling, has less fat, and the fat is softer and yellower than that of CAFO beef. The nutritional value of grassfed products is so much higher that I can eat less of the meat while maintaining good nutritional levels. Overall, I haven't found a huge upward leap in my food bill.

Supermarket chickens are usually “enhanced” with 2% of their body weight of a flavor solution, which is essentially water with a little salt and some sugar, and much supermarket beef and pork is also so enhanced. Lean pork chops are injected with sugar solution to make them tender in the absence of fat. Because CAFO beef oxidizes readily, becoming unappealing to the eye, it’s often treated with Sta-Red, to keep it cherry-coloured.

This is very long! I’ve made it into a Word document this time in case it vanishes again.

Suzanne, thanks for all this detailed information! A very useful and informative distillation of a wide body of literature for the benefit of those of us who are concerned about these issues.

I think we can probably go around and around in circles for ages debating the merits/accuracy of different hypotheses. As Suzanne points out, a real "proof" would require much more rigorous testing with the variables controlled for in a more subtle way. But who's to say we can't do our own mini versions of controlled trials right here? bke, you are on to something by limiting the estrogens, clearly, based on how your body and spirit has reacted to their absence. But as Jane and Suzanne are trying to say (I think) it might not be the absence of meat, but rather the absence of factory farmed meat that is the key. So maybe the next time you are facing one of those horrible cravings, you can reward yourself with a nice roasted pastured chicken or a grass fed steak. Not suggesting you do that all the time, but try it and see if it helps and monitor carefully to see if the estrogen-induced issues return with the consumption of this kind of meat. If they don't then maybe you can add it back into your diet a few times a week and see if that helps keep the cravings from developing at all while still keeping your estrogen issues at bay. I guess I see this as being all about balance. I think it is perfectly fine for people to be vegetarian or vegan if it works for them, but for many it doesn't (I am one of those -- was vegetarian for two years in my teens and became horribly anemic and weak).

I do think the cautions about processed soy products are worth heeding. If you continue to consume a lot of processed soy stuff, I would also track carefully your body's reactions. Try to keep those separate from any non-CAFO meat you may consume, to avoid confusing issues.

lhamo

"Jane, do you think that there is any chance that you just took things too far for your body by going so low fat and vegan?"

My experiments with vegan and low-fat diets were separate (oh, the dirty tricks I pull on my poor, long-suffering body >:(...) Certainly my brief vegan stint was low in animal fats, i.e. none. I'm not convinced that a disproportionate intake of vegetable oils is healthful.

Lately, I've been running 60% fat, 15% carbohydrate, 25% protein ratio (by percentage of calories), and I eat animal protein at most meals. I don't think those ratios are set in stone, but I know my body likes its protein.

Due to age/metabolism/who-knows-what, I don't thrive on ketogenic levels of macronutrients.

Thanks for the kind words, Lhamo. Yes, I do think there is a huge difference between factory-farmed and grassfed animal products. I also think that the single best thing anybody can do for their health is to buy single-ingredient foods and prepare meals from scratch in accordance with your personal requirements. As I said above, MacDougall's diet success could be mostly owed to the elimination of baked goods, processed foods, sugar, flour, and oils, which are also nixed by Paleo and Primal eaters -and those Paleo and Primal people do have a lot of success. I strongly believe that humans are not all the same; some people genuinely thrive as vegans while some as genuinely thrive on other diets. I fully agree with your mini-experiment idea. My own diet is not based on any particular dietary doctrine, but on personal experience. I'm always pleased when I come across literature explaining why something that I'm doing works, of course!

Such a tremendous amount of good information! Thanks for taking so much time to discuss this with me.

The info on the the quality/costs of grass fed meats is priceless. I wouldn't have considered all the different aspects of this. I'm going to look much more closely at what my co-op has to offer the next time I'm there. These items should say pasture raised or grass-fed correct? Not just organic, right? How about eggs and dairy-how are they typically labeled?
And what exactly are organic animal products?

There are definitely things about vegan that I don't care for. Ie: I would much rather use real butter than try and find a decent replacement. Both because I think the chemical composition of margerine is scarey stuff and because real butter tastes so much better!

Something that is just not sinking into my brain-how many units of phytoestrogens equals a unit of animal estrogen? There effects aren't equal right? I keep thinking that I can eat a lot more plant estrogens to equal animal based estrogen and that that is why vegan is better. Not that I am looking to eat as much as possible, but that the consumption is simply lower much like the caloric levels of vegan substitutes tend to be lower. Example- equal portions of soy milk vs dairy milk. I have to look at that chart you posted again.

I know McDougall's version of things is not the answer-I'm not even trying that. But niether is the SAD diet I was consuming before. What I'm doing now is tolerable but just that-tolerable. I'm not enjoying 80% of what I eat. I'm eating because I have to. Bottom line, I don't want to be a vegan, but I am concerned that it is necessary for my health. I'd love to become confident about eating animal products again!

I watched "How to win an argument..." I have written down several things to investigate and have requested "The Paleo Diet" from the library. I must admit there was a lot of interesting information in that video clip.

A San Francisco CBS affiliate did a positive review of paleo eating/living recently (a few video clips, and likely more to come):

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...an-diet-trend/

Soy is so not the health food it's been touted as. Read here to see why you should stay away from products containing soy as much as possible: http://www.foodrenegade.com/dangers-of-soy/

It's hard though because soy is now in everything, even things we'd never expect it to be in like soda pop and chocolate and bagged tea. Soy can seriously mess with women's hormones, yet the vegan/vegetarian community embraces it like it's a miracle food.

As for grass-fed meat, eggs and dairy, they might contain minimal amounts of estrogen once it gets to your plate, but at least it will be naturally occurring estrogen and not fake estrogen pumped into factory animals. I have no data to back it up but it's my feeling that the naturally occurring hormones would be synthesized by our body better than the fake.

Edited to add: bke, yes, grass-fed products should always be labeled as grass-fed and/or pastured, or grain-free. If it just says 'organic' without also saying grass-fed, it just means they were fed organic grain (which is still bad - cows should not eat grain, period!). Ideally it would read 'organic, grass-fed' which would mean the farmer doesn't treat his grass pastures with any kind of pesticides.

If looking to get into raw dairy, first check the laws in your state to see if it's legal. This site can show you what laws are in which states, also has a list of local farms in your area to find where to buy. http://www.realmilk.com/
If you buy direct from a farmer, get to know him/her and ask how they raise their animals. Raw milk is only healthy and not dangerous if it's from 1)grass-fed cows, and 2)the farmer adheres to strict sanitary practices in handling the milk.

In your efforts to avoid excess hormones, also consider the effects of BPA from plastics. Bottled water, plastic packaging, microwavable plastic containers - we're inundated with plastic so much in our daily lives it's incredible. Many products are beginning to use BPA-free plastics - read lables carefully.

Another thing to consider about cafo and industrial meat and dairy products is the increase in portion size in general and number of meat meals per week for the average consumer.
As things got cheaper [excluding the taxpayer costs of subsidies, environmental degradation etc] people simply ate much more than before and way more than required to meet protein and fat health requirements.
Range and pastured animals and fowl, along with dairy products and eggs may cost more but the actual portion size required for health and taste fulfillment is really much less than we have been acustomed to in recent years. They are actually cost effective/affordable when viewed on a portion basis as well as being more healthy.

My observation is that people are eating less animal protein, by far, than they did in the fifties. Back then, people ate a wider variety too, including organ meats. If someone had served my grandfather a giant muffin on a plate for breakfast, he would have been astounded.

Quote:

---

yet the vegan/vegetarian community embraces it like it's a miracle food.

---

Even in my year as a vegan and several years as a vegetarian I seldom touched soy (except soy sauce as a flavoring in stir fries of course). I think I probably ate much less soy than the average meat eating processed food eater!

Sure I ate legumes and plenty of them (pintos, black beans, garbanzos, lentils, split peas), I just didn't trust tofu nor the fake meat stuff having never grown up eating it (of course I did grow up eating other legumes ocassionally - so I just ate more bean tacos, more pea soups and so on as a vegetarian). Really I wanted to eat NORMAL food, only vegetarian, not "weird stuff" like tofus. :laff:

i was vegan for a decade, and as catherine says, the real key is finding diverse cuisines and educating yourself and your palate to it.

i am now paleo -- for health reasons among many others -- and i still eat a lot of vegan foods, and even have vegan days, because these are some of my favorite foods!

i particularly like to make vegan soups, and there are many excellent recipes out there. in a given week, i'll make: pumpkin soup, fennel soup, butternut squash soup, broccoli (creamy, but no dairy) soup, cauliflower - mushroom (creamy) soup, kumara (sweet-potato) leek, and whatever else i have with leek, and tomato soup, and what else? oh, beet soup, and carrot soup, and several others.

i love vegetable soups.

i used to make my own veggie stock, but now I use my bone broths (i like to use as much of the animal as possible, and i buy local, pasture raised, etc).

and then meat is the garnish to the dish. seriously, i eat mostly soups and salads -- no grains or beans -- and then a bit of meat with it.

one meal a day is vegetarian (eggs), and the other meal a day is omnivorous because I have some kind of meat. :)

but, i don't agree with mcdougall's take on estrogen and never have. :) but that's a whole other deal. :D