Thought that this was an interesting read from the neuroscientist's point of view.
http://www.amazon.ca/Proof-Heaven-Ne.../dp/1451695195
Anyone else read it? What did you think?
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Thought that this was an interesting read from the neuroscientist's point of view.
http://www.amazon.ca/Proof-Heaven-Ne.../dp/1451695195
Anyone else read it? What did you think?
I did read it. I liked it, but it wasn't as compelling as Anita Moorjani's Dying to be Me
Neurosurgeon. There is a difference. Here is what a neuroscientist thinks of the whole thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by razz
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven
Interesting, Storyteller. Interesting because I would expect that in a continuum where Sam Harris would be at one end, and Eban Alexander at the other, I'd be MUCH closer to Eban Alexander, mainly because I truly believe so strongly in a spiritual life. I didn't realize that Sam Harris actually subscribes to some form of spirituality, namely Eastern meditation. It sounds like it's dogma that he is really shooting down, and I would agree with him there. So I'm probably dead center on that continuum between a Buddhhist/Hindu form of quasi-transcendentalism and a belief that there is a Living God.
So, when I read Eban Alexander's book, I think that what bothered me about it was that it came across as him simply describing what the Movie in his brain was playing. We don't believe that movies are real, but he has convinced himself that his "movie" is Reality. I would not presume to reject that, because I can't know. I really think that knowledge of the rational kind and knowledge of the spiritual kind are completely different, and we spend far too much time defending reality from the rationalist POV.
I think that Moorjani was more compelling because she came away with not just pretty pictures in her head but of a) a real spiritual transformation and b) a spontaneous remission from terminal cancer. I love her book--she motivates you to take on your life differently. I can't say Eban Alexander's book does that.
I agree with Catherine on this about the two ends of a spectrum.
Philosophically speaking, I think that individuals experience heaven in terms that they can understand and do heal themselves which defies medical expectations.
The experience of THE Consciousness will be different for each of us and to explain it all as a another simple psychedelic experience and slough it off for every person to whom it might happen is not accurate either.
I have two friends that have had NDE when their hearts stopped during surgery. Really amazing and fascinating stories they shared with me. Of course, it was all very real to them. I'm hoping there is a wonderful afterlife after hearing their experiences....
Well, I'm one of those light switch kinda guys... when you flip the switch, the light goes out. Everything we are is here and now and in our heads. It is a point of view I have evolved to over the years, having pondered on it many times and having watched over a thousand animals as life left their eyes. I'm not nearly as agnostic about the subject as Harris is.
Not something I am particularly thrilled about, but it is what it is. No reuniting with loved ones, no beautiful experience, not even nothing. Because nothing implies I am aware of nothingness. It is much less than that. It is merely cessation of existence, just as I didn't exist before I was born.
But there is a kind of peace that comes when I think of it. And an appreciation of life as I now have it, no matter my state of mind otherwise.
And I say all this as someone who was once very near death. So near it is amazing I am alive. And my recollection of that Near Death Experience is...
Nothing.
I completely agree with this, cessation of life is peace and when I think about it, it makes me value the life I"ve got.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Storyteller
I read Alexander's book, and it left me cold, for some reason. It didn't ring particularly true or didn't resonate with me, or something. But I do believe in an eternal soul, due to my own experiences and study. I appreciate that Sam Harris--unlike other professional skeptics--at least acknowledges that we don't know it all. I have no time for those who insist that we live in a mechanistic universe where there are no mysteries, only magic tricks. It's like the old fable of the blind men and the elephant--we're trying to make sense of a vast, layered multiverse from a very narrow vantage point using a primitive set of tools.
Ironic, given that I think beliefs in the hereafter are based for the most part on either wishful or magical thinking. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
But I'm okay with that. People are entitled to believe what they want to believe. My personal belief is not one that I hold defensively or dogmatically. It is simply what I believe. I have no dog in the fight either way.
One FB friend was appalled when I changed my profile from Christian to Atheist (what a relief that was! It felt like coming out of the closet). She wrote how strongly she disagreed with my belief. I wrote back that it isn't a matter of belief, but simply a lack of belief. I just don't believe. Same thing goes for an afterlife.
+1 The blind man and elephant. Exactly what I wanted to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
A while back I decided that I don't have to have any opinion or belief on this subject - and I've just tried to let it go. I stay curious, but based on the information I have "I don't know" is a good enough belief system for me :-)
Exactly. It isn't something I suspected would happen, but peace is the only way I know describe the feeling when I contemplate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lily
And it makes me value my life now, and every life around me.
The belief (working hypothesis) that I have a soul that migrates after physical death doesn't devalue my life here--on the contrary.
Can there be "peace" where there is no consciousness?
Peace is for the living, since there is nothing else. I either live, or I do not exist and peace is irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
From my POV.
I can't say it's really a perspective that makes one value the life you've got. It's just pointlessness. And it's painful pointlessness as any Buddhist will tell you, life contains suffering and sorrow.Quote:
And it makes me value my life now, and every life around me.
I have the life I've got because I'm too chicken@#$# to kill myself period. And because I was brought into the world (against my will, or rather without my will). That is all. I don't have to pretend that there is some other reason, that I'm glad I was born (I just was - it wasn't a choice - life at root is involuntary), that it's great to be alive, or anything else. Life is just a rollercoaster I'm strapped into regardless of whether I want to be (unless I unbuckle and jump out on the top - the only real choice we have in the matter - the time of our deaths - not the fact of our birth and death).
Well, that is a a depressing outlook. Makes me glad I'm not Buddhist.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
Well the overall perspective is more existentialist than Buddhist probably.
But the suffering and sorrow phrase is a famous one from the 4 noble truths, sometimes translated "life is suffering and sorrow" but I've heard more accurately translated "life contains suffering and sorrow" (caused by attachment to all that is impermanent).
Those existentialists are a jolly lot, aren't they? Quite popular among undergraduates, IIRC.
I saw that doctor who had the stroke on Oprah. I remember her saying that she could really feel the energy of each person who came in the room. She also talked about how important it is for doctors to speak in a positive way when performing surgery. She could really feel people's vibrations and intentions.
I'm not fanantical about it, but I believe in reincarnation. I've read a lot of James Van Praagh's books, and they resonate with me. He gets remarkable details from "the other side." I've also had this experience myself. I guess some would call me a medium. But, I've spent 27 years meditating and studying the healing and esoteric arts. One thing James wrote in his book is that people go to a spiritual plane with other like minded people. They do there what they were working on here. Musicians write or play music, dancers choreograph, builders build, etc. He says that the level of spiritual development you develop here on Earth you take with you. That always made sense to me. He also says that addicts end up with other addicts. He tells a story of this priest who tells him, "It's nothing like they taught us in church." Makes sense to me...developing your natural gifts and talents, working on your weaknesses, and reconnecting with loved ones.
But, to each his own. I respect everyone's beliefs on the subject. None of us can really prove it.
For me, I think that we live in heaven right now and it is our perception coloured by our beliefs that governs out experience. As our perceptions develop and beliefs change, we experience the results. Not sure where that fits into any organized belief system but quantum mechanics recognizes that the observer influences the results, aka observer-created reality.
Quantum mechanics also suggests there may be multiple dimensions separated by "branes"--I've heard scientists--Michio Kaku, maybe?--posit that we could be leading parallel lives in several of them. I'm probably more effective in those other ones...Quote:
Originally Posted by razz
Well, I do think that there is a lot of evidence (not proof, just evidence) of survival of consciousness after the death of the body. NDE, psychics, other mystical experiences.
It makes sense to me that the experiences would be varied and diverse, just as earthly human experience is.
For me, one of the measures of it's "trueness," is if the person who experienced the extraordinary (whatever) is more loving, truthful, etc. That is, are they living a life that has integrity with the message that they received.
Whatever the source, humans that are more loving, truthful, fair, compassionate are a boon the the troubled earth, whatever their motivations.