The War on Thanksgiving

Have we talked on the board yet about ALL the stores opening on Thanksgiving Day?
Really!?! The one day where we are to sit around and say 'Thank You', now we are all supposed to run out and buy a blender at 50% off and get one free because I just don't have enough STUFF.

I've always liked Thanksgiving. There are no gifts, maybe just a hair of stress involved cooking some things you only cook once a year or seeing a few annoying relatives you'd rather not be with.
But no gifts to buy. Usually no children's programs associated with it. And it's a holiday EVERYONE can enjoy - you can scream Happy Thanksgiving to your hearts content and offend no one.
Can we not just stay the heck home for one day!?

I have worked on Thanksgiving in the past, as I used to live in resort towns and have worked in plenty of restaurants.
I understand folks that have traveled across the country to ski, but for everyone to HAVE TO run out to their nearest Bed, Bath and Beyond to get 60% Off just seems like sacrilege to me.

Lots of my favorite memories of Thanksgiving were after the hoopla of the meal and just hangin' with your peeps watching a little football & cracking jokes.
So now we're supposed to bundle up Great Aunt Ida and fight the crowds to get a special deal?
"Hey, extended family, I know this is one of the few times we'll see each other this year, but I can't stay and spend time with you Grandmother and learn about our family stories because I need to run out to Kohl's to get you that much needed fragrance box set you will never use & will be giving you in 30 days" (like you don't have a month to buy that crap at another time!)

I definitely buy gifts for Christmas (and love a deal) and I like looking for little special things for people - so I'm not anti-gifts, anti-shopping (I do keep it within my reality & am not forsaking the College Fund for Santa Gift)- but it just seems so wrong (and tacky) to do it on Thanksgiving and a real interrupter for so many folks' FAMILY plans.

I know FoxNews talks a lot about the War on Christmas, so I Google'd the term 'War on Thanksgiving' to see what was out there and the whole first page were the 'Lefty' news outlets.
I thought the Right cornered the market on FAMILY issues?
So now the 2 winter holidays are polarizing events too? Oy!

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

Finally, a topic Fox News and I can agree on!!

It makes me so angry. It feels like a consumer cancer just taking over everything that's REALLY important.

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"Hey, extended family, I know this is one of the few times we'll see each other this year, but I can't stay and spend time with you Grandmother and learn about our family stories because I need to run out to Kohl's to get you that much needed fragrance box set you will never use & will be giving you in 30 days" (like you don't have a month to buy that crap at another time!)

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I love your rant, mtlaurel, and I'm with you. I got a Facebook quote that said something like "..because only in America people trample each other for sales exactly one day after being thankful for what they already have."

My MIL worked her whole adult life for the RWDSU, the retail store workers' union. She always said that one day Macy's would open on Thanksgiving, and we were like "No...." So last year when Macy's opened at 11 pm, I actually facebooked one of my MIL's old coworkers (MIL never lived to see the travesty) and asked her what the union was doing. The union's position was that it's voluntary, so they didn't get involved. I guess from their perspective, if their workers have the opportunity to make double time and a half, they're not going to complain.

Well, I'm complaining. Last year I boycotted all the stores that opened on Thanksgiving. This year, I'll choose those that didn't. From what I understand that includes Walmart, Sam's Club, and Barnes and Noble, and I saw a TV commercial for PC Richards that specifically said that they are closing so their employees can be home for the holidays. Typically I boycott Walmart just for general purposes, so looks like at least B&N is getting my business!

ETA: I was wrong--WalMart is actually opening on Thanksgiving, so I don't have to feel too conflicted about my boycotting them after all.

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Originally Posted by catherine

Finally, a topic Fox News and I can agree on!!.

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No, what I'm saying when I Googled 'war on Thanksgiving' the media outlets on the first page were Huffington Post, DailyBeast, Salon, NY Times.... there wasn't any Focus On the Family, FoxNews, etc.

Oh, I misread: You mentioned the War on Christmas and I was read War on Thanksgiving... I wonder where Fox lands on War on Thanksgiving??

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Originally Posted by catherine

I wonder where Fox lands on War on Thanksgiving??

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Me too!

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Originally Posted by mtnlaurel

No, what I'm saying when I Googled 'war on Thanksgiving' the media outlets on the first page were Huffington Post, DailyBeast, Salon, NY Times.... there wasn't any Focus On the Family, FoxNews, etc.

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Why would there be? You did read where you posted this (CONSUMErism and media)? The "media" is paid for by ad's, sales, etc. Black Friday is about being 'in the black" fiscally and retailers are still hurting, so they are pushing more. Families is just a human interest story and a small one at that. (as compared to even the entertainment "news" section of the news).
Want families, spend time with them, and unplug.

So, I googled War on Thanksgiving Fox News and found two things:

--Their only War on Thanksgiving was a war on Obama's Thanksgiving address in which he left out a reference to God.

--Your post (this one) is on Google's second page.

Maybe we should push for it - instead of fighting stores open on Thanksgiving, embrace it - and tell stores you want to shop even earlier!

Eventually Black Friday would back up to the weekend before Thanksgiving and we can have a quiet holiday again.

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Originally Posted by creaker

Maybe we should push for it - instead of fighting stores open on Thanksgiving, embrace it - and tell stores you want to shop even earlier!

Eventually Black Friday would back up to the weekend before Thanksgiving and we can have a quiet holiday again.

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Sorry, I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle. Even if Thanksgiving was "quiet" it would still be just another holiday shopping day available to us. Next up: Christmas.

Good thinking, though.

I think those of us who are into simple living just have to close our eyes to a few things this time of year in order to preserve sanity. Somewhere I saw the phrase, Christmas creep, used to describe how retail is pushing more and to expand the sales time window (and not the grump next door). The only recourse I see is to use our dollar to vote, which probably isn't going to overwhelm the masses but at least we are trying.

Thanksgiving is my least favorite holiday--by a mile--so I would welcome a chance to go shopping sans crowds if I had the chance. And I worked probably 15 Thanksgivings and Christmases until I had enough seniority to regularly get holidays off, but I do believe workers should have at least some choice and be paid premium wages for making the sacrifice.

In fairness, I've seen within DW's family that some folks attach a significant social component to Black Friday shopping. The camping out, the strategy sessions, the thrill of the hunt. I could not say it's all about saving a few bucks on cr*p.

However, I can say that I don't plan to go near a single store on Thanksgiving Day, just as I do not shop on Labor Day, Fourth of July, and the other big holidays. I know some (particularly non-celebrants) are happy to make some extra money working on those holidays. But I have to think peer (and business owner) pressure drives many people to work when they, too, would just as soon stay home and celebrate with their families and friends. I hope Thanksgiving Day shopping dies of disinterest.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Thanksgiving is my least favorite holiday--by a mile--so I would welcome a chance to go shopping sans crowds if I had the chance. And I worked probably 15 Thanksgivings and Christmases until I had enough seniority to regularly get holidays off, but I do believe workers should have at least some choice and be paid premium wages for making the sacrifice.

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As an example, my SIL could not make it to our house for Thanksgiving last year and this year because she had to clock in at Kohl's by 7pm on Thanksgiving, work until 12:30 and then be on the register Black Friday at 10:30. I don't think she had much choice (maybe technically, but you know how that goes). Regardless of whether you like/dislike holidays, I am against 365 retail shopping days a year just on general principle. I know there's nothing I can do other than boycott, which I am. I am resolved to not shop at ANY of the stores that are opening on Thanksgiving through Christmas--not just on Thanksgiving. I'm voting with my dollar.

I understand if you're not into Thanksgiving you might find it a nice pastime to go shopping rather than cook and commune with family, but I feel it just speaks to the imbalance in favor of overconsumption in our culture and I refuse to support that.

However, if you open the doors, they will come. I get it. Free market and all that. But I don't have to like it.

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Originally Posted by catherine

Sorry, I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle. Even if Thanksgiving was "quiet" it would still be just another holiday shopping day available to us. Next up: Christmas.

Good thinking, though.

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It wouldn't surprise me if they pushed the after holiday sales back to Christmas Day.

What I don't get is that one can find most of these deals online so why put up with the hassle of the crowds, etc? My logical self would rather pay a little extra and avoid all the chaos. Another thing that makes me sad about all this is that we are raising yet another generation of little consumers who think life is about acquisition. I just don't get the appeal of buying more stuff but then most people don't get simple living, do they?

Interesting indeed that Fox and the like are not at all concerned about the actual war on Thanksgiving from retailers, rather the erroneously perceived war on Christmas. Well, Kohl's and Walmart are not open on the latter, similar to most businesses. However, in the United States we are mostly citizens or at least here on purpose, so we should celebrate one of the two uniquely American holidays. OTOH, plenty of people in the US are not Christian so may not care too much about Christmas.
In my opinion, the only thing that should be open on Thanksgiving is the hospital. If you really are bored or hate the holiday, there's something that can keep you entertained all day and it's called the Internet....

Let's see, am I allowed to go to a movie on Turkey Day? I cannot remember if this is ok'd by the SL thought police.

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Originally Posted by creaker

Maybe we should push for it - instead of fighting stores open on Thanksgiving, embrace it - and tell stores you want to shop even earlier!

Eventually Black Friday would back up to the weekend before Thanksgiving and we can have a quiet holiday again.

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Well stores around here are having "Black Wednesday" so maybe you are on the right track :-)! Shop 'till you drop on Wednesday and then close the stores and have a quiet pig-out on Thursday. Unfortunately "Black Wednesday" is just a prelude for an even bigger shopping day on Thanksgiving day and all weekend. Blech!! I hate the whole thing. I just decided to have a 4 day "all-you-can-eat pig out starting tomorrow and avoid all stores and any place that promotes mass buying. Especially if it's mass buying of cheap Chinease goods. But then someone has to finance their bombs and bullets so they can shoot us down for flying over "their" islands.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Let's see, am I allowed to go to a movie on Turkey Day? I cannot remember if this is ok'd by the SL thought police.

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Yes you can go to the movies. It's entertainment and not shopping so we will give you permission :-). At least you aren't buying crap (except crappy popcorn and candy maybe) so there is that. Of course the whole purpose of this thread is not about what we can and should do, but it's about enforced labor on a national holiday. Someone has to sell you a ticket, someone has to take your ticket, someone has to run the projector, someone has to clean the aisle and bathrooms, and someone has to sell you that crappy popcorn and candy. All those someones are working on a national holiday so you can be entertained (am I making you feel bad yet :-)!) and that is the real reason most people dislike stores being open on holidays into the wee hours. All those someones not getting a day off to do whatever they want like the rest of us. Of course you are providing job security for others!

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Originally Posted by SteveinMN

In fairness, I've seen within DW's family that some folks attach a significant social component to Black Friday shopping. The camping out, the strategy sessions, the thrill of the hunt. I could not say it's all about saving a few bucks on cr*p.

However, I can say that I don't plan to go near a single store on Thanksgiving Day, just as I do not shop on Labor Day, Fourth of July, and the other big holidays. I know some (particularly non-celebrants) are happy to make some extra money working on those holidays. But I have to think peer (and business owner) pressure drives many people to work when they, too, would just as soon stay home and celebrate with their families and friends. I hope Thanksgiving Day shopping dies of disinterest.

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I won't either. But for many people it is a huge social event.

Something I don't think has been mentioned is that it's not always about buying unneeded crap. Some of us have very little money but there are still material things we need or could use if they were priced right. And a lot of things really are much cheaper during these sales than at nearly any other time. I could use a bed frame for one of my rental rooms. Today they are $5 at a local mattress store. I was all set to go until I saw the footnote:7 per store. My odds of getting one are too small to be worth going out in the cold on my scooter. Not all material things are useless crap. Some are necessary or useful provision and I for one am thankful that there are extreme sales so that people with less disposable income have a shot at getting them.

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Originally Posted by reader99

Something I don't think has been mentioned is that it's not always about buying unneeded crap...

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I agree. I am not a big shopper and refuse to fight shopping crowds, but am not above buying something on black friday if it is something I have needed and the price is good. I would probably draw the line on shopping on Thanksgiving. It just doesn't seem right.

I don't like this trend at all.

The last time I did the Black Friday shopping thing was probably 15-20 years ago. When I had moved away after college, I'd go back to my hometown over the long weekend, and a friend or two and I would hit the mall at 7 am on Friday. We'd have all our shopping done by lunchtime. We'd get lunch somewhere in the mall or nearby and then go home.

Now, I just do my shopping online. I literally just did my most of my Christmas shopping! I had already chosen what I wanted for my goddaughter and her family and had it waiting in my Amazon shopping cart. Books, stationery (they're moving away), and some really nice tea. $65 after an Amazon discount code for books and some credit card reward points. I only have a few small things to get (coffee shop gift cards, some art supplies for goddaughter's younger sibs), and that's it.

I do much of my normal shopping online anyway, so doing Christmas shopping online is nothing out of the ordinary for me.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Let's see, am I allowed to go to a movie on Turkey Day? I cannot remember if this is ok'd by the SL thought police.

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Yes, as self-elected President of this SL Thought Police thread, I allow you to go to the movie today.

I allow most Experiential Things on this day - church service, community gathering, skiing, restaurant meal, movie, the grocery store open until noon at most for last minute "oh sugar, I burnt that & have to redo".

But just wait 12 hours and go Bananas at BigLots on Black Friday! :)

Super Happy Thanksgiving All! I'm very grateful to have such wonderful cyber friends in my life. I learn so much from you all.

xoxoxo

I was flabbergasted this morning, my email inbox was stuff to bursting with "Black Friday" offers from every online vendor I've ever done business with. And they keep on coming. Can't even escape the shopping insanity here.

However, the ceremonial bird is going into the oven just now, bought directly from the young lady who raised it:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-N...Awesomized.jpg

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Something I don't think has been mentioned is that it's not always about buying unneeded crap. Some of us have very little money but there are still material things we need or could use if they were priced right. And a lot of things really are much cheaper during these sales than at nearly any other time. I could use a bed frame for one of my rental rooms. Today they are $5 at a local mattress store. I was all set to go until I saw the footnote:7 per store. My odds of getting one are too small to be worth going out in the cold on my scooter. Not all material things are useless crap. Some are necessary or useful provision and I for one am thankful that there are extreme sales so that people with less disposable income have a shot at getting them.

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no doubt true, I think for many of us black friday is just more of the poison that's already killing us, in every way. Psychologically: battling masses of people to complete my task, wait I already do that daily in my commute. Having to rush rush to get things before they're gone, wait that's like every deadline at work ever. Actual leisure and free time though, those things are in truly short supply (get them before they're gone!).

I worked all the holidays through high school and the first couple of years of college. I NEEDED the money! I was thankful for the extra hours and the premium pay. Bring on the crazy shoppers I said, many who work retail already live paycheck to paycheck. Thanksgiving is a lost day of pay for many.

Appreciating and being thankful for those around you is not a one day/year event, it is an everyday habit.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Let's see, am I allowed to go to a movie on Turkey Day? I cannot remember if this is ok'd by the SL thought police.

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If the people who serve you at the movie theater are there as voluntarily as you are, fine. Being informed summarily by one's employer that Black Friday (or, now, Thanksgiving) is an all-hands-on-deck sales event and that anyone who values your job must be there? That's just coercion. Nothing "free" about that at all.

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Originally Posted by SteveinMN

That's just coercion. Nothing "free" about that at all.

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Coercion? I guess I see things a little differently after spending the 70's, 80's and some of the 90's working every holiday and odd shift that came along. If I had only known I was being coerced I might have refused the duties of my position and possibly quit in protest. That would have shown them, the big bullies.

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Originally Posted by Dhiana

I worked all the holidays through high school and the first couple of years of college. I NEEDED the money! I was thankful for the extra hours and the premium pay. Bring on the crazy shoppers I said, many who work retail already live paycheck to paycheck. Thanksgiving is a lost day of pay for many.

Appreciating and being thankful for those around you is not a one day/year event, it is an everyday habit.

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Yes, thank you.

But so many here insist that I *WILL* appreciate what I have, dammit! on the holiday for which that appreciation has been scheduled. And that appreciation takes the form of staying at home. One size fits all regardless.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Yes, thank you.

But so many here insist that I *WILL* appreciate what I have, dammit! on the holiday for which that appreciation has been scheduled. And that appreciation takes the form of staying at home. One size fits all regardless.

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I appreciate what you're saying, IL. Certainly people have a right to do what they want to do. But my beef isn't with the people who might want to shop, go to the movies, or whatever. Of course, people need to celebrate the way they want. My complaint is that shopping/consumerism has co-opted so much. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for those Norman Rockwell days, and for Sundays when all the stores were closed, and also when they were closed on evenings during the week except Thursday, but to me it's a cultural message that shopping is SO IMPORTANT that we have to be able to do it 24/7. Perhaps it's inevitable, it's fair game, it's not illegal, and I don't have to do it if I don't want to. All true. And many times I've been thrilled I could buy a book on Amazon at 2 a.m.

But what we do tells us who we are as a culture. And I'm just not liking what I hear these days when the balance is so shifted towards what can we buy and how much profit can we make.

I remember when stores weren't open on Sundays or holidays--and wishing they were. You don't have to shop, but if you need something it's nice to be able to run out and get it. I'm generally aware of the blessings in my life every day of the year, and think of Thanksgiving mostly as a day when you stuff yourself with mediocre food (after hours of plummeting blood sugar) and sit around in a stupor watching football on TV.

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Originally Posted by Alan

Coercion? I guess I see things a little differently after spending the 70's, 80's and some of the 90's working every holiday and odd shift that came along. If I had only known I was being coerced I might have refused the duties of my position and possibly quit in protest. That would have shown them, the big bullies.

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It's true that you can choose to quit (unless you are talking about when you were in the military - then there is no way out :-)!) but if you have people (kids, spouse) who are dependant on you and bills to pay it's not always that easy. Lots of stories out there on the media about people being fired for refusing to work on holidays. A lot of these jobs didn't start being open on Holidays until fairly recently - and the hours and days required to work seem to keep expanding - so they may have originally taken the job and worked many years for the company thinking they would always have holidays off. And it's not just retail - many corporate companies (like my sister's work place Northrup-Grumman) no longer give the Friday after Thanksgiving off as a holiday so they can save money. Something that many places have always done.

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Originally Posted by Spartana

...many corporate companies (like my sister's work place Northrup-Grumman) no longer give the Friday after Thanksgiving off as a holiday so they can save money. Something that many places have always done.

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I had to take a vacation day to have today (not to shop, thank you very much) off, in the past I didn't.

I've wondered if that's been part of the reason for the shift of shopping to Thanksgiving - and why so many people are doing it. I would think not nearly as many people can make it out to shop on Black Friday as they could a generation or two ago.

I don't think overtime law requires premium pay for working holidays period. With overtime law (if one is hourly, salaried is another ballgame) you only get premium pay for working over 40 hours a week. Because a week with a holiday in it you are not considered to have worked over 40 hours a week (since minus the holiday it's only 32 hours) no overtime is required. Yea I couldn't believe it either, but that's actually the law.

"Last week I worked eight hours on the 4th of July holiday, which fell on Wednesday. For the whole week I worked 40 hours. When I got my paycheck this week I was paid for 40 hours at my straight time rate. Aren’t I entitled to extra pay, of at least double time, for working on a holiday?"

"A. There is nothing in state law that mandates an employer pay an employee a special premium for work performed on holidays, Saturdays, or Sundays, other than the overtime premium required for work in excess of eight hours in a workday or 40 hours in a workweek. Unless your employer has a policy or practice of paying a premium rate for working on a holiday, or you are subject to a collective bargaining or employment agreement that contains such a term, your employer is only required to pay you your regular rate of pay for all the straight time hours worked on the holiday, and the overtime premium required for work in excess of eight hours in a workday or 40 hours in a workweek. Since you did not work over eight hours on the holiday, or more than 40 hours during the workweek, you were paid correctly.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Holidays.htm

Oh and since federal law supersedes state law, you can be sure there is nothing in federal law about it either. So just keep believing you're always going to get overtime pay for working holidays ... yea ... that's the ticket.

I work for the county. In Ohio, counties, as employers, do not have to pay overtime for over 40 hours worked; they can set their own policy:
Ohio Revised Code
» Title [41] XLI LABOR AND INDUSTRY
» Chapter 4111: MINIMUM FAIR WAGE STANDARDS

4111.03 Overtime.
(C) A county appointing authority with the exception of the county department of job and family services may, by rule or resolution as is appropriate, indicate the authority's intention not to be bound by division (B) of this section, and to adopt a different policy for the calculation and payment of overtime than that established by that division. Upon adoption, the alternative overtime policy prevails. Prior to the adoption of an alternative overtime policy, a county appointing authority with the exception of the county department of job and family services shall give a written notice of the alternative policy to each employee at least ten days prior to its effective date . (and Ohio has other exemptions from overtime pay....)

I am salaried, but our hourly people are only paid overtime when they work over 80 hrs in a 14 day pay-period. They are paid a premium (1.5) for holidays, but that is only at the discretion of our judges and could end at any time. Our judges are great, but they are elected officials, so....

That said, I am thankful to have the holiday off, and to be paid for it. I'm not against retail stores being open on Thanksgiving - their choice. I don't have to like it, so I won't buy from them - my choice.

Ha Ha Ha It's good to see the 'Fox' followers here haven't disappointed. They have, (feebly I might add) tried to rally to the right and 'so what' the whole subject. *
See, the problem is, Fox, in their 'rightness', can't possibly AGREE with anything that even remotely smells of 'leftie' causes, even if they would have happily co-opted the idea if only they had thought of it first. God forbid if there is consensus on, well, just about anything! If the left thinks it's a good thing, then it MUST be bad and of course, leftist/socialist/commie/god hating/baby killing/liberal ideals. Oh the horrors!
Now all I really want for Christmas is a great big shout out to oxygen from President Barrack Hussein Obama.;)


*bae is the only sort of right winger here who is going his own way, as he often does. However, I do believe he COULD have used this day of discounts to obtain a new pair of glasses, cause, dude, that ain't no bird!:0!

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Originally Posted by peggy

*bae is the only sort of right winger here who is going his own way, as he often does. However, I do believe he COULD have used this day of discounts to obtain a new pair of glasses, cause, dude, that ain't no bird!:0!

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Sorry, Peggy, as an evil sort-of-right-winger, I'm on duty during this holiday. I had to respond to a multi-car accident yesterday just as I was beginning to carve the roast. Had several calls in the middle of the night, and looks like today is shaping up to be a busy day. (By the way, avoid having seconds if you are expecting the pager to go off, trying to Lift Heavy Things seems problematic if you are in a turkey stupor. I won't point fingers at any of my team-mates, but still, ick...).

No time to shop.

The rest of you folks, *please* don't drink and drive during the holidays, or any other time. It's just so messy.

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Originally Posted by catherine

I appreciate what you're saying, IL. Certainly people have a right to do what they want to do. But my beef isn't with the people who might want to shop, go to the movies, or whatever. Of course, people need to celebrate the way they want. My complaint is that shopping/consumerism has co-opted so much. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for those Norman Rockwell days, and for Sundays when all the stores were closed, and also when they were closed on evenings during the week except Thursday, but to me it's a cultural message that shopping is SO IMPORTANT that we have to be able to do it 24/7. Perhaps it's inevitable, it's fair game, it's not illegal, and I don't have to do it if I don't want to. All true. And many times I've been thrilled I could buy a book on Amazon at 2 a.m.

But what we do tells us who we are as a culture. And I'm just not liking what I hear these days when the balance is so shifted towards what can we buy and how much profit can we make.

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I very much agree with this, Catherine. It's similar to the change from seeing ourselves as citizens here in the U.S. to consumers. We're not citizens, with all the rights and responsibilities that entails, we're just trying to get more of everything (food, goods, etc.). THAT'S what frustrates me to no end--and I'm not saying that I don't participate in this. As humans we're all consumers. But gobbling up more than our fair share of things comes with a price.

Yes, Alan, it is coercion. If stores hadn't been open on Thanksgiving, people would have waited for Black Friday to spend their money. You seem to know enough about business to know (as I do) that working over a holiday on a non-emergency basis is rarely considered an "opportunity"; it is pretty much a requirement even if the employer offers it as "voluntary".

I say this as someone who has been on coverage for or actively worked through many a holiday and didn't get paid a dime extra for it. My bonus was "getting to keep my job". I know how it works.

I also know that most employers would just as soon suck you dry and kick you to the curb. What the hell, maybe employers should just tell people the new work week is 120 hours a week for the same pay. If they don't like it, hey, they can just walk, right?