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Thread: A Palestinian State

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    A Palestinian State

    I don't want to start a tumult, I just honestly don't know so I'll ask. Why does the U.S. and Israel not want a Palestinian state. I thought that was what all the interminable peace process talks were supposed to be leading to. (Gently now, I just asked...)

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    It's so complex, Florence, with so many competing "rights", and peoples, both of whom have legitimate claims, that it is no wonder that not much progress has been made.

    The official U.S. position by the Obama administration is support for a Palestinian state, and a "two state" solution, with Palestinians and Israelis able to each have a state, with mutual respect for and good relations with the neighbor. But there are pesky issues about contested territory, illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied areas, places like Jerusalem that both sides are willing to go to the wall to prevent the other from having, etc., that it's hard to know how it can ever be settled.

    The U.S. position is that there should be a Palestinian state, but that getting it by the U.N. voting for it, is not the way to go, and that only negotiation between Israel and Palestinians can result in any solution that will work.

    It's a very dicey matter for the U.S. right now, and President Obama is having to thread a very narrow needle, between the facts of our support of the "Arab Spring" movements in places like Libya and Egypt, etc., supporting democracy in those areas, but denying Palestinians the support that we give others. And, due to our very strong support for Israel, (and Israel's very dicey position of living among neighbors that hate and wish to destroy them) really complicates everything.

    Unfortunately, most other countries are supportive of this move, leaving the U.S. kind of out there, hanging in the wind, caught between our support of Israel, and our desire to promote freedom in the Arab world.

    One grave danger from this expected veto by the U.S., should the U.N. grant the Palestinians' request, is probable heating up of the Middle East even more, much more Arab anger against the U.S. and more and more difficulties in other countries we deal with.

    Probably the best thing would be for you to go to someplace like Wikipedia and read a bunch of the history, to begin to see what a knotted and tangled ball of yarn this President has been handed, and just how deep the divisions and difficulties are to find any sort of solution of the situation between Palestinians, who have suffered greatly under the Israeli occupation, and the Israelis, who believe, and probably rightly so, that they have only the slimmest hold on existence where they are, and are fighting ferociously to maintain power.

    Israel and the Palestinians have not had face to face talks now for many years, and the situation is fraught with landmines for either side, so neither side blinks. It's a mess, and to have the U.N. side with Palestine, when we have such close relationships with Israel causes a huge headache for this President, with untold probable consequences, if it goes through and the U.S. vetoes it.

    If, for no other reason than it looks as though we are talking out of both sides of our mouth (wouldn't be the first time), where on the one hand we support democracy, but when people vote in governments we don't like, it turns out that it's really more "The U.S. is supportive of democracy, as long as they decide the 'right' way".......look to a history of U.S. involvement in Central and South America for some headspinning examples of that.......

    Hope this helps........it's not a subject that I have real expertise about, but I just noticed that many looked at your post, but no one ventured an answer, so I've tried, with what little I know, to help.

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    Low Tech grunt iris lily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florence View Post
    I don't want to start a tumult, I just honestly don't know so I'll ask. Why does the U.S. and Israel not want a Palestinian state. I thought that was what all the interminable peace process talks were supposed to be leading to. (Gently now, I just asked...)
    So ask yourself:

    Where's that state gonna go? On whose land? What happens to Israel with that state in existence?

    Look, in my mind the whole thing is a jumbled mess, but not recognizing legitimate concerns of Israel seems disingenuous. Remember, Arabs want to kill Jews, they are upfront about that. It is some Arabs, granted, but its enough in that part of the world to annihilate Israel or give it a good go, anyway.

    Do you think that's ok?

    Seriously, we are supposed to give a crap that this "causes a huge headache for this President?" What an odd focus.

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    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris lily View Post
    Seriously, we are supposed to give a crap that this "causes a huge headache for this President?" What an odd focus.
    I agree.

    This is an extremely thorny issue, not in the least helped by President Obama's public declarations of support for a Palestinian state. I think that declaration by itself gave Abbas the confidence to force the issue.

    The UN can never back a Palestinian state as long as the ruling authority vows to destroy their neighbor and rid the area of all jews. If the reality gives the President a headache, I'd say it's well deserved.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

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    Well, in that sense, when I said "a huge headache for this President", I meant it as a "huge headache for the U.S.", since President Obama is the President of this country, so hence, the person who holds that burden, and has the headache, so to speak.

    But, Iris Lily, and Alan, never let it be said that you would not be able to find something to focus on negatively, no matter how hard a person tried to make their explanation of the problems as evenhanded as possible. One thing for sure, you are both blindingly predictable.

    Somehow, we do not find it difficult to understand why Iraqis would want to have an occupying force OUT of their lands, yet Israel has occupied Palestinian lands now for more than forty years, and there are several generations of Palestinians who have been born, grown old and died in refugee camps, while Israelis built settlements on land that had been in their families for a thousand years or more.

    The reason it is such a complex problem is because there is right on both sides, each side believes they alone have rights to that land, and so much damage has been done over the years because of both mistreatment of the Palestinians by the occupying forces of Israel, and the attacks and bombings of Israelis by the Palestinians that we now have several generations of people on both sides that hate the others' guts.

    Sometimes, although I have strong understanding of the precarious position in the area that Israelis hold, amid neighbors who hate them and wish them dead, the Israelis almost remind me of a person who grew up with an abusive and alcoholic father, who swears as a child that he will never, ever treat his children as he has been treated, yet when he grows up, continues the patterns and becomes an abuser himself.

    It is a common pattern, and one wonders at the Jews, who have suffered so much injustice, abuse and mistreatment at the hands of others in the past, are unable to see the abuse and mistreatment they have handed out to the Palestinians over the years, as continuing a pattern of doing unto others what was done unto them. Very sad.

    Another reason, Florence, which will probably be apparent here, that this has been such a huge problem in the U.S., with the U.S. unable to really act as an honest broker, trusted by both sides, is that polarity on this issue, similar to polarities on a number of other issues, divide this country, with Republicans and conservatives solidly in support of Israel, regardless of their actions, and Democrats and liberals, while having some support of Israel, not willing to give them a pass and ignore the damage and mistreatment of the Palestinians, so our political landscape is as divided on this Israeli/Palestinian issue as it is on other hot button issues from abortion to gun rights, etc.

    It takes a lot of reading and understanding to try to tease out some real understanding untainted by political posturing by all sides. Which probably is going to be hard to find, and probably definitely not able to be gotten here. I'm sorry.

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    Florence, I forgot a couple of things. IF the U.N. were to grant Palestine's request, one important thing that would happen would be that the new Palestinian state would return to the borders Israel and Palestine shared before the War of 1967, which means the Palestinian state would include the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, which are currently occupied by Israel, and Israel is currently building illegal settlements in the occupied areas of the West Bank and Gaza, which would REALLY become a problem.

    Also, once Palestine became a state, they would have standing to bring crimes they feel that Israel has committed against them before international courts.

    It isn't going to happen, because the U.S. is going to exercise its veto power to prevent it, but that veto is not going to be seen positively by most of the world, and the U.S. will find itself, once again, not aligned with most of their allies and other democratic nations.

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    Low Tech grunt iris lily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loosechickens View Post
    Well, in that sense, when I said "a huge headache for this President", I meant it as a "huge headache for the U.S.", since President Obama is the President of this country, so hence, the person who holds that burden, and has the headache, so to speak.

    But, Iris Lily, and Alan, never let it be said that you would not be able to find something to focus on negatively, no matter how hard a person tried to make their explanation of the problems as evenhanded as possible. One thing for sure, you are both blindingly predictable...

    OK, I will accept your explanation of what you meant, that you didn't mean, literally, our President's got so much on his plate that it's a shame for those Jews to cause him so much grief.

    Yes, indeed, Israel's vulnerability to Arab aggression is a problem for the United States, not just our President.

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    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loosechickens View Post
    Florence, I forgot a couple of things. IF the U.N. were to grant Palestine's request, one important thing that would happen would be that the new Palestinian state would return to the borders Israel and Palestine shared before the War of 1967, which means the Palestinian state would include the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, which are currently occupied by Israel, and Israel is currently building illegal settlements in the occupied areas of the West Bank and Gaza, which would REALLY become a problem.
    Palestine didn't share a border with Israel before the war of 1967. Sinai and Gaza was Egyptian territory, The West Bank was Jordanian territory and the Golan Heights was Syrian territory.
    The Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians left in the territories are today's Palestinians who were abandoned by their home countries.

    Of course, this whole thing could have been averted if those three countries, along with Iraq, hadn't amassed several hundred thousand troops on their borders in preparation for an invasion of Israel. And for what? Each of those armies were sent home within a week with their tails between their legs, almost certainly thinking, gee that was a huge mistake. Not only is Israel still there, but we lost some of our land in the process.
    Last edited by Alan; 9-22-11 at 8:30am.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

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    Senior Member razz's Avatar
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    My explanation is much simpler. This issue of a Paliestinian/Jewish nation state goes back centuries with major slaughter on both sides to the desired annihilation of each other.

    Now here is the key issue - to the best of my knowledge, neither the Jews nor the Muslims believes in forgiveness and letting go of the past.

    The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Africa which experienced terrible atrocities, depended on the agreement to "air the grievances and then forgive and move on". Period!

    That is not going to happen in the Mid-east despite the efforts of each and every President whether s/he be orange purple or green politically so partisanship comment on this site makes no sense. Until there is an understanding that history starts today based on "forgive and forget the past", no progress is possible in the Mid-East.

    I wonder if the Red/Blue split in the US will ever be resolved. Based on comments on this site, it would seem that the "air grievances-forgive-let go and forget and move-on" won't ever happen in the US either. That is really sad.

  10. #10
    Low Tech grunt iris lily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razz View Post
    My explanation is much simpler. This issue of a Paliestinian/Jewish nation state goes back centuries with major slaughter on both sides to the desired annihilation of each other.

    Now here is the key issue - to the best of my knowledge, neither the Jews nor the Muslims believes in forgiveness and letting go of the past.

    The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Africa which experienced terrible atrocities, depended on the agreement to "air the grievances and then forgive and move on". Period!

    That is not going to happen in the Mid-east despite the efforts of each and every President whether s/he be orange purple or green politically so partisanship comment on this site makes no sense. Until there is an understanding that history starts today based on "forgive and forget the past", no progress is possible in the Mid-East.

    I wonder if the Red/Blue split in the US will ever be resolved. Based on comments on this site, it would seem that the "air grievances-forgive-let go and forget and move-on" won't ever happen in the US either. That is really sad.
    What strikes me about this situation is the blatant way Middle East Arabs talk about taking out Israel and killing Jews. It's just shocking to me. I'd think that lying or at least being more subtle about it would be to their advantage.

    That's funny to pair Red/Blue politics on this website with the MidEast conflict and there's some truth in that, haha. But I think there's more personality going on here than politics.

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