Why DON'T they like Romney?

[JaneV2.0]

It's a moot point, as I'm in it here for the duration, so I have to keep swinging. If we can reverse the Citizens United decision (there are groups actively working on this) and accomplish real campaign finance reform, we will have made a solid start. Personally, I'd like to get profit and corporate interests out of the healthcare industry, as well. I believe they are the reason medical treatment costs far more here than it does anywhere else in the world. I don't know how you boycott insurance companies; they're much more likely to boycott you.

[Gregg]

I've never heard a convincing argument that healthcare is actually less expensive outside the US. True, the citizens of countries with national healthcare write smaller checks to the providers, if any at all, but that isn't in any way what defines the real cost. I would guess an MRI machine costs about the same in Sweden as it does in New Jersey, if not even more. Medical educations in Denmark may cost the student less than in the US, but I don't know that they are actually cheaper in the end. Big pharma spreads their R&D costs across the globe. I don't believe they can completely subsidize Europe or anywhere else through the US market.

As far as the quality of care, there are some great facilities in southeast Asia, a few top hospitals scattered around Europe, one or two in Central America, etc. Overall though the US is still, IMHO, the place to be. Several years ago DD#1 had some significant issues stemming from a rare vascular disease that targeted blood vessels in her brain. Neurosurgery was required to save her. We had two choices of facilities that had experience treating her condition: Boston or Tokyo. We would have gone to either based on who we thought would do the best job. Fortunately, the staff at Children's Hospital in Boston had pioneered the procedure she needed so we went there. While we were there (about 3 weeks the first time, much less for follow-ups) we met literally dozens of parents who's kids were also facing life threatening afflictions. You have A LOT of time to talk to other people in that situation. There were several families from Europe on our floor. They were pretty obviously well heeled as a general rule meaning they probably had the resources to take their kids anywhere in the world. They all came to the same conclusion regarding quality of care that we did and so they came to the US. During that time we also had a chance to take multiple tours of the facility and learn about their research as well as their treatment philosophy. With that knowledge I just simply do not believe that environment could be developed under any European model of healthcare.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Let me ask you this, if it were possible to initiate change in ways you see as beneficial would you rather stay here and do that? My answer would obviously be yes even with the understanding that change isn't going to happen overnight.

Of course, all one's friends and family are here. Well I'm a homebody I guess, I'd stay.

I do think you're right about corporate influence being out of line, but I don't think we're (as in average citizens) helpless. Those corporations sell goods and services. We aren't required to buy those if the parent company is acting in ways we feel are irresponsible.

I'd be down for a boycott of ALL large corporations as much as reasonable (I mean don't cut off your nose to spite your face, but really as much as you can). Not just localization but much more radical (and I've nothing against supporting small businesses in other states - I mean a corporate boycott). And sending as little taxes as possible to Washington (I don't mind state taxes). Because at this point I see the whole system as hopelessly corrupt. It's fast becoming a corporate police state IMO, and corporations and the Federal government are so in bad together they are for all intents and purposes the same creature at this point, the same incredibly corrupt creature.

We can work to expose substandard practices and demand change. I think we all know that it would probably be more work than packing up and moving to a place with a different take on your particular issue and there is certainly no guarantee of success.

More work? I don't know. How easy to you really think it is to get a job in another country? Much less to actually get citizenship (many countries like Canada it is not exactly giving citizenship away, it's hard to get). Moving to another state may be pretty easy, another country is a little more difficult. If you start considering countries whose primary language isn't even English and you are a native English speaker, add another layer of complexity.

As much as anything I guess I'm trying to figure out at what point an intelligent, engaged citizen throws in the towel?

It's personal. I know all the stories of why they left Europe too (my ancestors). Some left because they would have starved to death for lack of potatoes (and if you learn the history of this, the fatality rates on those ships coming to the U.S. was astounding, but the alternative was starvation). Some left because rigid class systems allowed no advancement. Sound familiar? That was one of the more benign reasons for leaving. Some left because Czars (yea the real ones) kept drafting their young teenagers in their wars (the Russian revolution did happen for a reason, as messed up as the results of it were). Many would have been GASSED to death if they had stayed in Europe. You grow up as a kid hearing what would have happened to them, how they would have been rounded up and murdered had they been born in Europe instead. It's just part of your legacy.

It's a moot point, as I'm in it here for the duration, so I have to keep swinging.

Yes as long as one is here I see no alternative but to fight to turn the thing around. Even if it is a losing fight.

If we can reverse the Citizens United decision (there are groups actively working on this) and accomplish real campaign finance reform, we will have made a solid start.

It needs to be done, I'm doubtful much can be accomplished without reversing the influence of money in politics. Our so called representatives hardly even listen to us anymore. But besides that my main concern is police state measures. I know I sound alarmist. Well I hope I'm wrong and just some nutcase crying wolf. But I just can't erase from my mind the fact that NDAA was REAL. So is government spying. So are the real crackdowns on the only real radical movement this country has (OWS) - but radical movements have always been cracked down on - so that is nothing really new. But yea NDAA is just a cincher, just such a shock to the system. Anyone can be locked up for any reason without a trial for mere accusations of "terrorism". Really? Anyone can be taken away, put in prison forever, send away and tortured? I'm pretty anti-totalitarian. All those stories of people who would have died in Europe, public school indoctrination, etc.

By the way since I'm such a lazy nothing that gives up the fight so easily. I took off Friday to protest NDAA (I get 2 weeks of paid vacation days in this extremely generous country afterall). I went to the local protest. Had to park my car first. The less than 10 protestors were gone by the time I parked my car, 1 hour into the protest. So demoralized.

[JaneV2.0]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/18/bu...pagewanted=all

"In Greece, the government and individuals combine to spend about $2,300 per capita on health care each year, and the average life expectancy is 79 years. Canada, where the hospitals are probably cleaner, spends about $3,300, and people live to about 80. Here in the United States, we spend more than $6,000, yet life expectancy is just below 78."

I don't agree with the columnist's conclusion that our rampant over-treatment is the major contributor (I'll stick with the profit motive), but I'm with him in preferring a "less is more" approach to medical care.

[creaker]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/18/bu...pagewanted=all

"In Greece, the government and individuals combine to spend about $2,300 per capita on health care each year, and the average life expectancy is 79 years. Canada, where the hospitals are probably cleaner, spends about $3,300, and people live to about 80. Here in the United States, we spend more than $6,000, yet life expectancy is just below 78."

I don't agree with the columnist's conclusion that our rampant over-treatment is the major contributor (I'll stick with the profit motive), but I'm with him in preferring a "less is more" approach to medical care.

US healthcare is about making money - so, in that respect, it's very overwhelmingly successful. And I would think like any other business it would lean towards models and practices that bring in repeat business and encourage consumers to spend as much as possible.

[Gregg]

I've never heard a convincing argument that healthcare is actually less expensive outside the US.

I know, I know...kind of silly to quote myself, but I just want to clarify that I'm talking about an apples to apples comparison in as much as one is possible. I've been to a few places you can get a tooth pulled for a couple bucks which is a lot less than it would cost at my dentist's office, but I don't think that is the direction most of us want to go.

[Gregg]

US healthcare is about making money...

That is true, just like it is with any market sector in a capitalist system. The problem is that people try to put a morality spin on healthcare that they don't apply to other industries. We were all taught that food, clothing and shelter are basic human essentials. Agriculture, the construction industry, the garment industry and all their various offshoots and overlaps provide goods and services that increase both the quality and duration of life, just like the healthcare industry. All three are as big or bigger, in dollar terms, than healthcare. Why then are people not up in arms that my sandwich costs 30% more than it did a few years ago? The shirt on my back certainly isn't getting any cheaper. My house may have fallen in price, but I don't hear anyone beating a drum telling me it is still too expensive so the government should take over the industry and provide a free house to everyone. The only real difference between healthcare and those other industries is the speed at which you could die without their products, the acuteness of the need. I'm curious how we got to this unlikely point?

[Alan]

I'm curious how we got to this unlikely point?

The natural progression of a social welfare state into one segment of the market at a time.

[JaneV2.0]

See, I would say "the natural encroachment of greed into one segment of the commons at a time."

Here's a chart showing comparative health care costs:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html

[ApatheticNoMore]

Why then are people not up in arms that my sandwich costs 30% more than it did a few years ago? The shirt on my back certainly isn't getting any cheaper.

Basically probably because these things are still quite affordable. And the percentage of income spend on food has mostly dropped (doubt the same is true for medical care!). Even the government programs that assist people who can't afford food (food stamps) are dirt cheap in terms of cost. But yea basically there are plenty of alternatives in these markets. Even housing is a market with alternatives (rentals, roommates, sometimes trailer parks etc.). Basically only a small portion of the population goes without these things, and the markets aren't totally oligopolized.