View Full Version : How to convince my girlfriend she does not need to go on pricey dates?
Ultralight
9-23-15, 11:09am
My girlfriend says she feels "deprived" of going on dates. She wants two "real" date nights a month. I agreed to this.
She wants to do things that I consider pricey, especially since it costs about $20 just to drive to her house and back from my place. Throw in a meal at a restaurant ($30, give or take) and an activity (movie, mini-golf, museum, whatever she wants -- and that is another $30, give or take) and we are up to $80; or more not counting driving to where ever the restaurant and activities are, which could push things over the $100 mark.
This is $200 a month or $2400 a year -- that could be a lot of money going into my IRA or an emergency fund!
I am not sure what to do...
Thoughts?
Have her pay her own way; it's only fair.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 11:26am
Have her pay her own way; it's only fair.
I am not sure she'd consider that a date. Though she'd probably offer to treat me perhaps 25% of the time.
Even if she did pay her own way each time, that would still add up to a good chunk of change for me to pay for myself.
I thought dates were supposed to be mutually enjoyable events.
You sound resentful already. Why are you doing only things she likes to do?
Do you two do any date activities that you both like to do?
Or maybe it's time for a new girlfriend?
Most people enjoy activities that cost some money--at least occasionally. Good luck finding a woman that only enjoys quiet nights at home or walks in the park. I'm sure they're out there.
But I'm a firm believer in people paying their own way.
You're on the verge of telling her that you value your money more than you value her. I'd suggest you get out of the relationship now and give her a chance to find a better pairing.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 11:46am
I thought dates were supposed to be mutually enjoyable events.
You sound resentful already. Why are you doing only things she likes to do?
Do you two do any date activities that you both like to do?
Or maybe it's time for a new girlfriend?
Resentful? I wouldn't go that far. I am concerned about the costs and somewhat annoyed that she is not that concerned about my financial situation.
She is significantly older than me and well-established in her career. She make about $20k more a year than me, plus she has a defined benefit pension plan, a 401 k, a traditional IRA, and a Roth IRA. She also contributes to Social Security. I basically have a 401k and a tiny Roth IRA (they add up to about $15k -- all I have saved for retirement!).
I am doing what she likes to do because what I like to do would not be considered a date. I like to go fishing, ride my bike, cook food together, and take part in community organizations -- stuff like that.
In order to make room in my budget for the dates I am going to go fishing much less, probably much, much less. That is the place in my expenses with the most room to wriggle.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 11:47am
Most people enjoy activities that cost some money--at least occasionally. Good luck finding a woman that only enjoys quiet nights at home or walks in the park.
I know. This is why I agreed to the date nights.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-15, 11:48am
Have her pay her own way; it's only fair.
I agree. Although sometimes in my mind I think maybe a woman should only pay 70 or whatever it is% of her way, that is what women earn for doing the same job as men :) Oh really, I'm not that dour and political to go on a date with, it's just a private chuckle of mine. But there's if you've initially met (initial dates) where if might make a man feel gentlemanly to treat (really I don't fight a man to wear the pants, even though I usually wear pants :)), and when your already in a full blown relationship where I really think it should be more equal (except on her birthday, your anniversary of meeting maybe etc. where it might be nice to treat)
Even if she did pay her own way each time, that would still add up to a good chunk of change for me to pay for myself.
yea your dealing with basic incompatibilities there, not necessarily fatal ones but I'm not sure what can be done but compromise. If people like some things that cost money: plays, museums, even botanical gardens, zoos, day trips that cost some admission or at least gas and you don't .... And none of those things by themselves are super expensive, but they aren't free. I guess you can try substitute activities, try making a nice dinner instead of going out, making it oneself or making it together (even then it might not be as cheap as the PB&J one would have made oneself - well it isn't the single life I guess). Try watching a movie at home (of course this doesn't help if one doesn't' own a t.v.! - I don't own one either btw, and has only a tiny computer screen). You could try to get her into cheap hobbies like fishing or maybe camping, but it might not take, and if someone really likes some cultural activity they might just do fishing on top of that even if it does!
rodeosweetheart
9-23-15, 11:49am
I am not sure she'd consider that a date. Though she'd probably offer to treat me perhaps 25% of the time.
Even if she did pay her own way each time, that would still add up to a good chunk of change for me to pay for myself.
This seems like an excellent arena in which to work out compromises acceptable to both of you, to see if this is going to be a relationship that works for both of you!
One idea is to meet and date in the middle somewhere?
At least you guys can figure out what unspoken assumptions are going on, and whether your assumptions and her assumptions mesh comfortably!
Ultralight
9-23-15, 11:52am
I agree. Although sometimes in my mind I think maybe a woman should only pay 70 or whatever it is% of her way, that is what women earn for doing the same job as men.
If a woman explained this to me, especially at the beginning on first dates and such, I would agree to these terms for obvious reasons.
catherine
9-23-15, 11:53am
I say, let her pay for the whole date. Why is the man the one who always has to pay? If she's really into going out, tell her you'd love to accept her offer to take you out. She makes more than you, and that's what she's into. So be it.
Then, on her birthday, or some random time, I'd surprise her and take her to a really nice place, your treat. That would be far less than $2400.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 11:56am
You're on the verge of telling her that you value your money more than you value her. I'd suggest you get out of the relationship now and give her a chance to find a better pairing.
I don't think that is it. What I am saying is that I think she and I could have as much fun and romance by spending very little money -- or even no money. Cooking together is romantic. Walks in the park are romantic. Great conversation is romantic. Doing silly dances to P-Funk at home is fun. Riding bikes is fun.
rodeosweetheart
9-23-15, 12:14pm
I don't think that is it. What I am saying is that I think she and I could have as much fun and romance by spending very little money -- or even no money. Cooking together is romantic. Walks in the park are romantic. Great conversation is romantic. Doing silly dances to P-Funk at home is fun. Riding bikes is fun.
But can you see that maybe you are defining and controlling the relationship, saying what is romantic and what is not? Maybe to her, these things are not fun.
She's entitled to her idea of what she wants in a romantic relationship, as are you. You both are. But you may not find it together.
Perhaps you are finding out that at some level, you are not very compatible. The title of your thread indicates you want to change her, and I'm not sure that ever works.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 12:17pm
But can you see that maybe you are defining and controlling the relationship, saying what is romantic and what is not? Maybe to her, these things are not fun.
She's entitled to her idea of what she wants in a romantic relationship, as are you. You both are. But you may not find it together.
Perhaps you are finding out that at some level, you are not very compatible. The title of your thread indicates you want to change her, and I'm not sure that ever works.
Good points. Ahh... I guess it was wishful thinking.
I have found that if I change, my relationships last longer. So in this case, I am planning to give her the pricey dates she wants doing things I am usually not interested in.
rodeosweetheart
9-23-15, 12:20pm
Good points. Ahh... I guess it was wishful thinking.
I have found that if I change, my relationships last longer. So in this case, I am planning to give her the pricey dates she wants doing things I am usually not interested in.
Okay, and also, why don't you try to find some meet ups for fly fishing folk (very alliterative!) because maybe you have not met the girl of your dreams. . .
(It makes me sad you have to cut back on what you love to do.)
I don't think that is it. What I am saying is that I think she and I could have as much fun and romance by spending very little money -- or even no money. Cooking together is romantic. Walks in the park are romantic. Great conversation is romantic. Doing silly dances to P-Funk at home is fun. Riding bikes is fun.
I agree with Alan.
YOU find these activities fun and romantic. To some women out there they are.
To your current girlfriend, it sounds like they are not.
Radicchio
9-23-15, 12:28pm
I 100% agree with rodeosweetheart! Imagine it the other way around. Suppose she has been asking her friends how to convince you that you really don't need to go fishing and has a list of reasons why it isn't practical or fun? You are both entitled to your preferences and opinions, but not to impose them on each other. Compromise is great, though. If one is not willing to compromise in any way regarding their lifestyle then a serious relationship probably isn't going to happen. If your main objection is financial and you have determined that you really can't afford to pay for what she is asking, then you could be frank with her and say you just can't afford it. Maybe she would feel it was worth it to pay herself. However, you need to know whether you will be thinking about what a waste of money it is each time you go out on one of those dates. If so, then you're not going to enjoy it and eventually it will erode the relationship.
Thinking back to my dating days, I was a pretty cheap date because I didn't have a lot financially when I was younger. However, I remember when it occurred to me that I should make sure to not start a pattern of doing something that I wouldn't be willing to continue to do indefinitely---so I consciously made sure that the "dating me" was the same as the "everyday me," if that makes sense. That meant that as soon as I could see something was a real deal breaker for me, I would immediately break it off with that person, which I believe was kinder to both of us than to continue when I could see we had no future as a couple. I have now been happily married to the same man for decades, but I did have a near-miss before that when I was carried away by my attraction and enjoyment of the company and attention of someone who, fortunately, I realized wasn't a good match for me. Great guy, just not a good match.
So if you really are contemplating how you can change this woman, maybe you're not a good match? Of course, you might not be considering a serious or long-term relationship, but you still need to be honest with yourself and with her.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 12:30pm
Let me use a bit of hyperbole to explain how Alan's assertion that I value money over her does not hold water.
Suppose my gf said: "I want to take a weekend date every weekend to Cancun, Mexico otherwise I am deprived of proper dates."
Would anyone then say: "Well, unless you take her to Cancun every weekend you are telling her you value money more than her."?
Any takers for that rationale now?
catherine
9-23-15, 12:33pm
Let me use a bit of hyperbole to explain how Alan's assertion that I value money over her does not hold water.
Suppose my gf said: "I want to take weekend date every weekend to Cancun, Mexico otherwise I am deprived of proper dates."
Would anyone then say: "Well, unless you take her to Cancun every weekend you are telling her you value money more than her."?
Any takers for that rationale now?
I think what Alan is saying is that a little compromise is called for. Every relationship has to give and take a little. She goes out on a boat with you, and you treat her to a relatively inexpensive night out. If you want to "change her" out of what she genuinely feels is fun, and I personally don't disagree with her, maybe you need to look for someone that's a closer match for you. In this scenario, your inability to compromise suggests that you value $2400 over her (not the hypothetical scenario you have set up).
Or, ask her to pay for it, in which case she just MAY come to the same conclusion Alan did, unless you come up with a good case for what SHE has to gain by YOU stashing your money in a 401k.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 12:36pm
I think what Alan is saying is that a little compromise is called for. Every relationship has to give and take a little. She goes out on a boat with you, and you treat her to a relatively inexpensive night out. If you want to "change her" out of what she genuinely feels is fun, and I personally don't disagree with her, maybe you need to look for someone that's a closer match for you. In this scenario, your inability to compromise suggests that you value $2400 over her (not the hypothetical scenario you have set up).
Or, ask her to pay for it, in which case she just MAY come to the same conclusion Alan did.
Okay, I see.
Radicchio
9-23-15, 12:36pm
Let me use a bit of hyperbole to explain how Alan's assertion that I value money over her does not hold water.
Suppose my gf said: "I want to take a weekend date every weekend to Cancun, Mexico otherwise I am deprived of proper dates."
Would anyone then say: "Well, unless you take her to Cancun every weekend you are telling her you value money more than her."?
Any takers for that rationale now?
I've already responded at length above. But of course your scenario is quite different. However, I'm assuming that most of us could not afford either the time or the money to meet that request so it would be a case of being unable, not unwilling, to do so. You indicated above that you could manage it financially but that you might have to sacrifice some of the time that you enjoy doing something else. So you get to choose which is more important (i.e, which you value more) to you. In your case maybe you would have understood this better if he had said that you are telling her you enjoy fishing more than time with her. You can have both, but you might have to both compromise. Try to understand her point of view for a change instead of trying to solve this issue by only considering your preferences.
Let me use a bit of hyperbole to explain how Alan's assertion that I value money over her does not hold water.
Dude, you started this thread and titled it: "How to convince my girlfriend she does not need to go on pricey dates?". You not only placed emphasis on price, but you went on to add it all up to an annual dollar figure. You imply that you want to be with her, but you don't want to pay the price, which you've noted as $2400. How should we take that?
Ultralight
9-23-15, 12:46pm
After reading the responses here and taking them into consideration, I'll take her on the dates as she desires. That seems like the best option to keep her happy, keep the relationship from falling apart, and to keep her from getting the idea that I would rather have a better funded retirement.
I suppose I started this thread out of frustration resulting from my sticker-shock of date costs.
If I cut about 50% of my fishing out and cut a few other corners here and there I won't notice the money gone from the dates. Seems like a reasonable compromise.
Williamsmith
9-23-15, 1:02pm
You already resent her. You already assume that she is the one who should change. Go fishing.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 1:04pm
I have purposefully left out the major things I have changed/compromised on that I wanted.
I don't think I ever added up the financial cost of any relationship, ever. Probably why I'm not rich. :idea:
I don't think I ever added up the financial cost of any relationship, ever. Probably why I'm not rich. :idea:
I hear ya.
You already know how this will end.
Dump her and flee to Bolivia.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 1:18pm
You already know how this will end.
Dump her and flee to Bolivia.
Ain't gonna lie, I loled at that!
I have purposefully left out the major things I have changed/compromised on that I wanted.
And have you left out some things that she has compromised on, as well? If only one person in a relationship has made adjustments or compromises to make the relationship work, that's an uneven partnership and eventually the person making all the concessions will resent it---maybe not right away, but at some point. Or that person will dig his/her heels in and refuse to compromise anymore, which can be just as deadly to a relationship.
The dating stage is the most fun part - that giddy phase where everything is wonderful and possible, and magical. Not the best part, mind you, I think the deep contentment and satisfaction of a committed long-term relationship is the best part. But if you guys are not having fun already, when the relationship is all about fun, maybe you need to think seriously about what kind of life you both want. What are the shared activities and values that would make the relationship deeper and stronger over time? And more satisfying?
Years ago I read a book, How to Tell if Someone is the Right Person in 2 Dates or Less, or something along those lines. Basically it encourages the reader to really think seriously about what kind of life they want, what values they hold dear, what they bring to a relationship, what they desire (and don't want) in a mate, etc... By clarifying what it is that you want out of a partner, and what you have to offer as a partner, it somehow makes the whole process easier. And a lot more fun! Most people probably put more research and thought into what kind of car they want to get than what kind of person they want to spend their lives with.
If you are only doing the dates to placate her, I doubt that they will be much fun for her. It seems you would both get short-changed. What is it that draws the two of you together, that made the relationship flourish in the first place?
Ultralight
9-23-15, 2:11pm
The dating stage is the most fun part - that giddy phase where everything is wonderful and possible, and magical. Not the best part, mind you, I think the deep contentment and satisfaction of a committed long-term relationship is the best part. But if you guys are not having fun already, when the relationship is all about fun, maybe you need to think seriously about what kind of life you both want. What are the shared activities and values that would make the relationship deeper and stronger over time? And more satisfying?
Unfortunately we don't really have shared activities that we are both passionate about. She is very religious. I am an atheist. She loves to watch TV. I don't even own one. She likes to go shopping. I don't. I help her in her garden sometimes, which is fun. She went fishing with me a few times this season, mostly just to put the time in together. This is a theme.
What is it that draws the two of you together, that made the relationship flourish in the first place?
She likes that I am polite and respectful to her. She also likes that I have an education and a steady, decent job. I can also make her laugh.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-15, 2:18pm
If you are only doing the dates to placate her, I doubt that they will be much fun for her. It seems you would both get short-changed.
try to enjoy them. Ok if one hates an activity this may never happen. But if an activity is one one doesn't mind but just doesn't think is worth the money it might. She likes to go out to eat, well maybe there are cuisines you've never tried that might be interesting (hmm never had Ethiopian food, let's give it a try ....). She likes movies, okay well this new film does look interesting (again this is unlikely to work if one hates all movies). There's a miniature golf course we haven't yet tried, it's in a nice park, so can get a nature fix ... or something.
It's time to find a woman who has the same definition of date as you do.
This is the book I was talking about: http://www.amazon.com/Know-Someone-Worth-Pursuing-Dates/dp/0785269045
If I remember correctly, it had a religious/faith-based aspect to it, but you can simply ignore that aspect of it. I remember feeling very "selfish" when I was defining what I wanted in a mate, but I think it's healthy to know what you need and want in a relationship. I think both people need to have a clear idea of what kind of life and partner they want to have. Personally, I feel that a good partner/mate is someone who enriches our life by being in it.
Unfortunately we don't really have shared activities that we are both passionate about. She is very religious. I am an atheist. She loves to watch TV. I don't even own one. She likes to go shopping. I don't. I help her in her garden sometimes, which is fun. She went fishing with me a few times this season, mostly just to put the time in together. This is a theme.
She likes that I am polite and respectful to her. She also likes that I have an education and a steady, decent job. I can also make her laugh.
It might be your frustration talking, but right now it seems that you don't perceive a lot of benefits in being in this relationship. I would encourage you to look deeper and find the good, so that you are not looking at this from a limited perspective. For example, if you make her laugh, that's a pretty big thing, but you listed it last. You also have not mentioned what it is that drew you to her, and what you like about her.
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-15, 2:32pm
The book might be interesting, if it has exercises etc.. The title of course is nonsense IMO :). While one might know one doesn't want to see someone again in two dates (or one), one wont' know the right person in two dates generally, except in the rare destiny at first sight cases and that's rare.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 2:34pm
It might be your frustration talking, but right now it seems that you don't perceive a lot of benefits in being in this relationship. I would encourage you to look deeper and find the good, so that you are not looking at this from a limited perspective. For example, if you make her laugh, that's a pretty big thing, but you listed it last. You also have not mentioned what it is that drew you to her, and what you like about her.
Hey, I listed making her laugh in the top three! ;)
I like that she rescued her dogs and that she is okay with remaining child-free. She is also physically very attractive to me.
The book might be interesting, if it has exercises etc.. The title of course is nonsense IMO :). While one might know one doesn't want to see someone again in two dates (or one), one wont' know the right person in two dates generally, except in the rare destiny at first sight cases and that's rare. Noone really needs unrealistic expectations.
Yeah, the title is out there. But the author talks about how if we really listen and pay attention to people, they will reveal themselves pretty quickly, in 2 dates or less apperently. I never really tested the theory, but it's true that you can tell who people are pretty quickly if you pay attention and if you are honest with yourself. Someone else said, "When people tell you who they are, believe them." I think our biggest obstacle is being clear with ourselves about what we really want (or deserve, for those of us who grew up feeling that we didn't deserve much). Once we make an intention, it's pretty easy to make decisions that align with that intention. If we are serious about it. And if we genuinely believe we deserve to take care of ourselves.
The book does have exercises - that's what I liked about it. It's kind of a workbook on learning about yourself, what you want, what's important, what you feel you bring to a relationship (so that you value yourself and also look at your shortcomings honestly), etc... I highly recommend it.
She is also physically very attractive to me.
I suspected this had something to do with your dilemma:)
I suspected this had something to do with your dilemma:)
Lol! :)
I suspected this had something to do with your dilemma:)
Bingo! I've been reading these replies and thinking "what the heck does he even like in her?" I really don't think it's going to work, after the physical attraction part doesn't outway all the other qualities you want her to have, but she doesn't.
Good luck.
It's time to find a woman who has the same definition of date as you do.
+100
This isn't the first post from you about wanting to change your girlfriend. Why should she change? Why not just find someone more compatible?
Bingo! I've been reading these replies and thinking "what the heck does he even like in her?" I really don't think it's going to work...
I don't know, it might... if the fisherman will be honest about how important this aspect of the relationship is to him. Looked at a different way: she's hot (a highly valued commodity), she laughs at his jokes, she rescues dogs, she doesn't want kids, she's self-sufficient and can take care of herself financially, she admires the fact that he works hard and is educated, she appreciates how well he treats her, and they enjoy gardening together. Are these things important to the OP? How important are they?
And I do agree with everyone who has said that attempting to "change" someone is always a bad idea, and it never works! We can barely manage change within ourselves, when we try, and are highly motivated to change, and when it's our idea to change. To think that we can change others, or motivate them to change, is pure folly!:)
awakenedsoul
9-23-15, 3:31pm
I don't know, it might... if the fisherman will be honest about how important this aspect of the relationship is to him. Looked at a different way: she's hot (a highly valued commodity), she laughs at his jokes, she rescues dogs, she doesn't want kids, she's self-sufficient and can take care of herself financially, she admires the fact that he works hard and is educated, she appreciates how well he treats her, and they enjoy gardening together. Are these things important to the OP? How important are they?
This is great! Do you think if you were debt free you would feel differently? I know you've mentioned in other posts that you have a very large amount of student loan debt. That was my first hit, that it's too stressful for you to spend that kind of money on dates, since you have to pay off the student loans. I can understand that. Is she debt free?
I don't think you have to have all of the same interests and passions as a couple. If you enjoy eating meals together, spending time together, and have stimulating conversations, that's fantastic. You mentioned that you are physically attracted to each other, and have mutual respect. That's a big deal.
My ex used to LOVE to go out to eat. He would pay, and looked forward to going to a restaurant on the weekends. I made our meals at home. (I bought most of the groceries.) I realized that after working hard all week, he really LOVED driving to the mountains, going for a hike in nature, and sitting down to a meal in a restaurant. It was how he treated himself. My tendency was to want to save that money and cook something at home. I learned to go with it. (I love eating out, too...but I live on a budget.) It was really enjoyable.
It's hard for people to understand financial issues if they don't have debt. I'm debt free, but I remember the struggle I felt when I wasn't. Your girlfriend sounds like a great person. I hope you can work it out, if you are in love with her.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 3:39pm
This is great! Do you think if you were debt free you would feel differently? I know you've mentioned in other posts that you have a very large amount of student loan debt. That was my first hit, that it's too stressful for you to spend that kind of money on dates, since you have to pay off the student loans. I can understand that. Is she debt free?
I don't think you have to have all of the same interests and passions as a couple. If you enjoy eating meals together, spending time together, and have stimulating conversations, that's fantastic. You mentioned that you are physically attracted to each other, and have mutual respect. That's a big deal.
My ex used to LOVE to go out to eat. He would pay, and looked forward to going to a restaurant on the weekends. I made our meals at home. (I bought most of the groceries.) I realized that after working hard all week, he really LOVED driving to the mountains, going for a hike in nature, and sitting down to a meal in a restaurant. It was how he treated himself. My tendency was to want to save that money and cook something at home. I learned to go with it. (I love eating out, too...but I live on a budget.) It was really enjoyable.
It's hard for people to understand financial issues if they don't have debt. I'm debt free, but I remember the struggle I felt when I wasn't. Your girlfriend sounds like a great person. I hope you can work it out, if you are in love with her.
She is not debt free. She has a fairly normal amount of debt by American standards, a little student loan, a bunch of credit card debt, etc. A mortgage... She mentions wanting to be debt free someday but has no plan or drive to do it.
And let's be clear here! haha I am very physically attracted to her. She likes me because I am respectful, employed, and can make her laugh -- not for my hot bod or movie star looks.
Ultralight
9-23-15, 3:40pm
I don't know, it might... if the fisherman will be honest about how important this aspect of the relationship is to him. Looked at a different way: she's hot (a highly valued commodity), she laughs at his jokes, she rescues dogs, she doesn't want kids, she's self-sufficient and can take care of herself financially, she admires the fact that he works hard and is educated, she appreciates how well he treats her, and they enjoy gardening together. Are these things important to the OP? How important are they?
And I do agree with everyone who has said that attempting to "change" someone is always a bad idea, and it never works! We can barely manage change within ourselves, when we try, and are highly motivated to change, and when it's our idea to change. To think that we can change others, or motivate them to change, is pure folly!:)
She wants/wanted kids. But now she is older and is willing to settle for someone who does not want kids.
Bottom line is - is she open to negotiation on the differences? If not, the physical won't outweigh the emotional and financial friction.
I say, let her pay for the whole date. Why is the man the one who always has to pay? If she's really into going out, tell her you'd love to accept her offer to take you out. She makes more than you, and that's what she's into. So be it.
Then, on her birthday, or some random time, I'd surprise her and take her to a really nice place, your treat. That would be far less than $2400.
+1. You say she makes $20K more than you and her job has all kinds of good bennies. Why should you foot the bill?
This doesn't apply, of course, if she has extraordinary expenses of some kind, like supporting five kids and an aged parent. But for her to expect you to pay for dates is what I like to call "selective feminism."
Ultralight
9-23-15, 4:20pm
"selective feminism."
That's good work if you can get it!
Williamsmith
9-23-15, 4:46pm
lets see....your perfect date with a woman would be with someone who looks like your girlfriend, you would ride bicycles in order to reduce your carbon footprint, stop off at the local fishing hole, impale a slimy worm on a hook and catch a few stinky fish for dinner and talk about different plans for saving for retirement and how wonderful the rest of her life would be with 100 or less things and no children. And it all would cost you next to nothing.
How romantic......You better take her out to dinner at a hugely expensive restaurant, then to a Broadway play and you better be driving a cleaned up gas guzzling SUV or you might just lose this gal.
For me the "willing to settle one someone who doesn't want kids" would be a huge red flag. I would not personally be happy to be settled for. If it's a for fun for a while relationship, that's not an issue, but it doesn't sound like it's that much fun either.
For what it's worth, the dates being described don't sound expensive to me. They certainly sound like an amount that i'm not willing to spend once a week let alone more often on entertainment, but they don't sound expensive compared to most dinner + something dates.
Bolivia is lovely in the winter, I expect...
ApatheticNoMore
9-23-15, 5:09pm
For what it's worth, the dates being described don't sound expensive to me. They certainly sound like an amount that i'm not willing to spend once a week let alone more often on entertainment
I don't know, I've gone to plays and so on with just platonic friends (of course one paid one's own way, so it wasn't a date someone treating situation) as I knew someone who was very into plays. So ... Is that something I would do alone? No. Maybe I'm just not that cultured :) But with company. Yea. (And it was way more fun than the movies).
Ultralight
9-23-15, 5:25pm
For me the "willing to settle one someone who doesn't want kids" would be a huge red flag. I would not personally be happy to be settled for.
I am middle aged now. You get older and you don't mind being settled for like you did in your indignant and righteous 20s. haha Just my experience of it...
Chicken lady
9-23-15, 6:01pm
You are to going to "convince" her of anything. You can offer he altnatives, basically, I'm a little concerned about this relationship. Do you ever want to get married again? Because you seem to have very different values, about what is fun, about how to spend money, about quantities of belongings, housing, neatness....
I'm not actually asking the following questions for answers, just ask yourself, ok?
Is the sex/physical attraction that good?
What (else) are you getting out of this relationship?
Where do you see this going? In 5 years? Ten?
Is she really the most amazing woman you know? (are you making an effort to meet any others?)
I like walks in the park (I like walks down route 132 I'm easy). If my date showed up with a bag of groceries and a bottle of wine and put some music on and poured me a glass while he cooked for me, I'd be delighted. If he CAUGHT dinner (and showered) first, I'd be impressed. Which doesn't mean I don't also like a nice dinner out, a concert, or an afternoon of mini golf. But there are a lot of ways to spoil a woman and make her feel special. If her " love language" is having money spent on her and that makes you feel resentful instead of appreciated, you have a compatibility problem.
We used to live across the street from a couple with a 4 y.o. son. She worked in a bank. He kept the car, yard and house up, grew the garden, built a boat, caught, grew, and wild crafted amazing food (and with the help of the grocery store did all the cooking), cleaned, did laundry, and took good care of his son while passing on skills and knowledge. I thought he was amazing. His wife thought he was a bum because he didn't have a job. I love my husband and would not have traded, but he was wasted on that woman. And she made him unhappy. But he loved her. Do you love this woman enough to be unhappy for her?
I believe it was you, Rev. Ul, who said minimalism - or a "mustachian" set of life goals - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/blog/ - is a meta-lifestyle, that it colors whatever it is you choose to do on a more specific level. If you and someone else don't have a meta-match, I don't know how serious the relationship could ever be. It's sort of like being a vegan and being told you can have all the pizza you want - just eat around the pepperoni and cheese. Doable for one pizza, but for a lifetime?
freshstart
9-23-15, 11:12pm
But can you see that maybe you are defining and controlling the relationship, saying what is romantic and what is not? Maybe to her, these things are not fun.
She's entitled to her idea of what she wants in a romantic relationship, as are you. You both are. But you may not find it together.
Perhaps you are finding out that at some level, you are not very compatible. The title of your thread indicates you want to change her, and I'm not sure that ever works.
I agree with this. If she is flat out telling you what she feels is romantic and she wants a date that suits her twice a month, this honestly seems reasonable. Just as it would be reasonable to do things you like 2xs a month. But if you really don't enjoy what the other person picks for dates then how compatible are you? As for who pays, are you guys serious and been together a long time? Because it seems odd to know her salary, pension, 401k, etc and she to know yours, unless you are both just very open with this kind of thing or you are at the stage of combining households.
About 6 months into a LTR, me offering to pay was accepted every third time or so, we didn't really discuss it. We had common interests and uncommon interests. We mostly did stuff we both liked, but if one person really wanted to do something together that was not an interest of the other, we did it because that was uncommon. But the really different stuff, we did with our friends. He loved winter camping, I would do anything, including faking a cardiac event to get out of winter camping. He did this with his guy friends, surprisingly none of their significant others wanted to go either. And that was fine with him, totally fine with me. It did not bother me in the least that he was using precious "we time" because it was occasional and made him happy (we had kids and lived an hour apart, "we time" took planning). I love Wilco, he does not, but in this case he was happy to drive me to Massachusetts, sit under the stars, have a few beers and he always ended up loving the live show. I was happy to go with someone else, but very happy he actually wanted to be there for an experience I loved. Somewhere between 6-8 times over the years, lol. I think he secretly likes them, too, no one is that nice!
He also didn't think he liked museums, tried one, loved it, soon he was planning trips to museums. So he was capable of change on activities after exposure but not everything, like modern art. We were at Mass MoCA, he was so loud in a place of serene silence about calling everything "crap that I could do", and he kept TOUCHING the exhibits like a 3 yr old! I said I had food poisoning from lunch, we have to go right now, lol. Never to return to anything resembling modern art. And that was fine, I had that, he had winter camping. At least the odds of my nose freezing off were slim.
we were both happy reading for hours in front of the fire, often liked the same books, taking the dogs on trails, he liked "guy" movies but also independent film (that's like hitting guy lotto). Those things were free and neither was unhappy.
if you are only tolerating each other's date plans, neither of you finds a new interest through the other person, you both feel let down, it doesn't sound like a great match. Sure, exBF and I enacted change of opinions on certain things the other introduced us to, that's great but I found that to be rare among BFs. And attempting to change me down the road on things I hold dear, like values and beliefs, led to me ending the relationship.
I hope she learns that she loves fishing or camping and you find things you never knew you liked in her world. Because without any of that, I think a true relationship would be untenable. Partially, IMHO, because Ultralite, you are not a halfway kind of guy from what you've said here, you are clear in your beliefs and you do not sound like you can change them even if you wanted to. For your sake, I'd love to say I can see you in her 4 BR house with all her stuff, dates are dinners out and a movie, you pursue your things on your own, but I can't. I cannot picture you happy there, it sounds like the total opposite of the life you've said you are trying to live. My 2 cents and I hope you are not offended, that is not my intention at all. I hope you have a whole list of things you enjoy together and share a true love, that is more important than simplicity, yay or nay.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 7:36am
I agree with this. If she is flat out telling you what she feels is romantic and she wants a date that suits her twice a month, this honestly seems reasonable. Just as it would be reasonable to do things you like 2xs a month. But if you really don't enjoy what the other person picks for dates then how compatible are you? As for who pays, are you guys serious and been together a long time? Because it seems odd to know her salary, pension, 401k, etc and she to know yours, unless you are both just very open with this kind of thing or you are at the stage of combining households.
About 6 months into a LTR, me offering to pay was accepted every third time or so, we didn't really discuss it. We had common interests and uncommon interests. We mostly did stuff we both liked, but if one person really wanted to do something together that was not an interest of the other, we did it because that was uncommon. But the really different stuff, we did with our friends. He loved winter camping, I would do anything, including faking a cardiac event to get out of winter camping. He did this with his guy friends, surprisingly none of their significant others wanted to go either. And that was fine with him, totally fine with me. It did not bother me in the least that he was using precious "we time" because it was occasional and made him happy (we had kids and lived an hour apart, "we time" took planning). I love Wilco, he does not, but in this case he was happy to drive me to Massachusetts, sit under the stars, have a few beers and he always ended up loving the live show. I was happy to go with someone else, but very happy he actually wanted to be there for an experience I loved. Somewhere between 6-8 times over the years, lol. I think he secretly likes them, too, no one is that nice!
He also didn't think he liked museums, tried one, loved it, soon he was planning trips to museums. So he was capable of change on activities after exposure but not everything, like modern art. We were at Mass MoCA, he was so loud in a place of serene silence about calling everything "crap that I could do", and he kept TOUCHING the exhibits like a 3 yr old! I said I had food poisoning from lunch, we have to go right now, lol. Never to return to anything resembling modern art. And that was fine, I had that, he had winter camping. At least the odds of my nose freezing off were slim.
we were both happy reading for hours in front of the fire, often liked the same books, taking the dogs on trails, he liked "guy" movies but also independent film (that's like hitting guy lotto). Those things were free and neither was unhappy.
if you are only tolerating each other's date plans, neither of you finds a new interest through the other person, you both feel let down, it doesn't sound like a great match. Sure, exBF and I enacted change of opinions on certain things the other introduced us to, that's great but I found that to be rare among BFs. And attempting to change me down the road on things I hold dear, like values and beliefs, led to me ending the relationship.
I hope she learns that she loves fishing or camping and you find things you never knew you liked in her world. Because without any of that, I think a true relationship would be untenable. Partially, IMHO, because Ultralite, you are not a halfway kind of guy from what you've said here, you are clear in your beliefs and you do not sound like you can change them even if you wanted to. For your sake, I'd love to say I can see you in her 4 BR house with all her stuff, dates are dinners out and a movie, you pursue your things on your own, but I can't. I cannot picture you happy there, it sounds like the total opposite of the life you've said you are trying to live. My 2 cents and I hope you are not offended, that is not my intention at all. I hope you have a whole list of things you enjoy together and share a true love, that is more important than simplicity, yay or nay.
She and I have been dating on and off for the past two years. I broke up with her three times during that time citing differences in values and lifestyle. After a few months of being broken up she would then contact me and ask to try again.
So knowing about each other's finances is reasonable.
I do not like guy movies. I like independent films, sci-fi (the good stuff!), and foreign films, especially Brazilian cinema, though I do also enjoy quite of a bit of European film. She prefers rom-coms and dislikes movies with subtitles.
I do not expect her or any woman to enjoy fishing. haha It was a nice bonus that she went fishing a handful of times with me. For me, it was just like she was getting to know me by going fishing. She saw what I appreciate about it -- the sun or the rain, the breeze or the heat, the lovely clear water and the murky depths, etc. But it was also that she has such a busy schedule with work, her side job, her household chores, her dogs, etc. that she knew we would not be able to see each other those weekends if she did not go fishing with me. So she squeezed it in.
You did not offend me. I appreciate your insights!
You are correct. I am not the "half-way" type. I have always struggled in the dating realm because I am quirky and intense about life. Some would say "extreme." I say thorough! :)
Do either of you have any intention of getting married? If not, then I'd say dates should be split.
My husband and I only had 3 dates before we got engaged, granted they were spread out over 3 months because I was living 6 hours away.
I just don't see the point of of a couple dating 2 or 3 or 15 years (as in the case of an uncle of mine).
Ultralight
9-24-15, 10:40am
Do either of you have any intention of getting married? If not, then I'd say dates should be split.
My husband and I only had 3 dates before we got engaged, granted they were spread out over 3 months because I was living 6 hours away.
I just don't see the point of of a couple dating 2 or 3 or 15 years (as in the case of an uncle of mine).
Good question. She has never been married before. She is "older." So I am not sure if she is "over it" or not. She does not talk about it really. We almost never talk about the future. She brought up "the future" once, about 2 months into dating the first go round. I brought the future up a couple times, once I did mention nuptials but did not get into any detail. It was more just feeling it out to see what she was thinking. I brought up the future last weekend. The conversation did not go well...
...
I just don't see the point of of a couple dating 2 or 3 or 15 years (as in the case of an uncle of mine).
Why not?
Why not?
I believe in marriage. I also believe that dating is a good way to find out if you are compatible with someone for marriage. If after a few dates there are incompatibility issues....why keep dating if you can't work through those issues? Heck, even after just 3 dates we felt our 6 month engagement was 3 months too long. The only thing that did was make the wedding bigger than we wanted.
For my uncle. He drug the dating out for 15 years. His wife had really wanted to be married and raise a family and they completely missed that opportunity. By the time they did get married he had health issues and having a family was not possible. I just found that very selfish.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 11:07am
I believe in marriage. I also believe that dating is a good way to find out if you are compatible with someone for marriage. If after a few dates there are incompatibility issues....why keep dating if you can't work through those issues? Heck, even after just 3 dates we felt our 6 month engagement was 3 months too long. The only thing that did was make the wedding bigger than we wanted.
For my uncle. He drug the dating out for 15 years. His wife had really wanted to be married and raise a family and they completely missed that opportunity. By the time they did get married he had health issues and having a family was not possible. I just found that very selfish.
I am not keen on marriage but I am not against it. I'd do it if it was important to my significant other and/or the benefits were needed.
Did your uncle drag it out for so long to avoid getting married and/or having a family?
I don't want a family (god help me to stay this way! lol). So that would not be a concern for me.
iris lilies
9-24-15, 11:16am
Why not?
Depends on their goals, depends on what you ( generic you) mean by "dating."
I might say "my goal is to have a happy, committed relationship for long term" and the details of where we live do not matter. And in fact separate dwellings might be preferable. To FloatOn that might look like dating if we didn't live in the same house. To me, it isn't dating if it's a committed relationship, if we are an established couple and if this meets both parties' goals.
I cant tell from the Rev.UL's description if this is dating still, but with all of his doubts about their conflicting values, this is not a committed relationship or at least he isn't comimited,,we don't know about her. And the problem with these kinds of half-in half-out relationships is that they take up all of your time, and you aren't free to find the person who is a match.
Did your uncle drag it out for so long to avoid getting married and/or having a family?
Yes he did.
iris lilies
9-24-15, 11:20am
I don't want a family (god help me to stay this way! lol). So that would not be a concern for me.dude, get snipped.
But go to the best doc in the area, and aren't you in a big metro,area where there are many specialists? This isn't a time to cheap out.
There is a sad tale or two over on the MMM site about snipping experiences.
And the problem with these kinds of half-in half-out relationships is that they take up all of your time, and you aren't free to find the person who is a match.
Exactly.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 11:25am
Yes he did.
It was very selfless of his girlfriend to yield to his wants to be child-free.
I wonder why he did not tell her he was not interested in having kids. I also wonder why she would, around year 14, still think her big day was going to come (followed promptly by a baby carriage).
Ultralight
9-24-15, 11:26am
dude, get snipped.
But go to the best doc in the area, and aren't you in a big metro,area where there are many specialists? This isn't a time to cheap out.
There is a sad tale or two over on the MMM site about snipping experiences.
I am scared of getting snipped! There is a correlation with dementia and other auto-immune diseases. I am just hoping that birth control works until my gf goes menopausal.
What do you mean sad tale or two?
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-15, 11:27am
So if he had got married and had a family he didn't want the kids would have just had a dad that didn't want them. Lovely! I'm sure that would have worked out well. He should have been upfront with her about what he wanted and let her find someone else probably.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 11:29am
So if he had got married and had a family he didn't want the kids would have just had a dad that didn't want them. Lovely! I'm sure that would have worked out well. He should have been upfront with her about what he wanted and let her find someone else probably.
A lot of folks think that choosing to not have kids is the zenith of selfishness.
rodeosweetheart
9-24-15, 11:32am
"I brought up the future last weekend. The conversation did not go well..."
It's great that you are openly communicating about your relationship and what you both want! However it goes in the future with this relationship, you have been honest and open with each other, which is a great thing.
I haven't read all the replies very closely in this thread, so i'm sorry if this has been mentioned before...but could you not have a frank and honest discussion with your girlfriend about how money is tight for you and explain your situation? explain how you want to have dates twice a month but could there be some frugalness to them sometimes and could she come to you sometimes to save your transportation costs?
maybe instead of dinner and a movie it could be a picnic and a movie or dinner and a Netflix movie with popcorn at home and snuggling. a little of both. find some free (or very inexpensive) plays/festivals/events to go see.
I believe in marriage. I also believe that dating is a good way to find out if you are compatible with someone for marriage. If after a few dates there are incompatibility issues....why keep dating if you can't work through those issues? Heck, even after just 3 dates we felt our 6 month engagement was 3 months too long. The only thing that did was make the wedding bigger than we wanted.
For my uncle. He drug the dating out for 15 years. His wife had really wanted to be married and raise a family and they completely missed that opportunity. By the time they did get married he had health issues and having a family was not possible. I just found that very selfish.
I believe in individuality; it's a cliche' to say the world would be a very boring place if we all marched in lockstep. But it's true. My SO has been married; he has children. I haven't been married and never wanted them. We've been together well over 30 years. the arrangement works for us. I guess I wouldn't call it "dating." Maybe that's the confusion.
I believe in individuality
I agree with you. I don't think marriage is for everyone or having kids is for everyone. I had no intention of ever considering getting married before age 28 (I had my life planned out) so it was kind of surprising to turn 23 while on our honeymoon. Actually DH and I when we dated and were engaged neither of us wanted children. It wasn't until we'd been married 6 years that we changed our minds. Actually I'd started thinking about children at about year 5 but decided I'd keep my mouth shut and if DH ever brought it up we'd see if we'd both changed our minds. He did bring it up about 6 months later and then we talked about that change of direction for 6 months.
What you have does work for you because you both agreed to it. I would call it a relationship...not just dating. But dating is important in marriage too. Just yesterday we had a date for lunch and a walk around a lake we hadn't visited before about 30 minutes from us. DH paid this time, but sometimes I pay.
If DH died I don't think I would ever enter a marriage again. I would date, and I would enter a relationship, but I doubt I'd enter a marriage or even a live-in relationship. I really don't live well with others, I like my space and quiet and alone time.
TVRodriguez
9-24-15, 11:46am
I just don't see the point of of a couple dating 2 or 3 or 15 years (as in the case of an uncle of mine).
I have read this thread with interest, as DH & I appeared to have some similar issues when we dated. I hesitated to reply b/c it can sound pretty bad to some people, and I can sound at times stupid or greedy, but oh well, I don't really care what anyone thinks of it anymore, and I know that DH & I are solid.
1. DH and I dated for 3 years before getting engaged and married within the year after that. We broke up several times during the 3 years, partly b/c he was not interested in getting married again or in having children ever. I proposed to him in the first year or two, and he said, "No thanks. Nothing personal, just not doing that again." Instead of ending our relationship, I decided that he was the best person I knew, that I wanted to be with him, and figured it would end at some point b/c I knew I wanted kids. Instead, he came around to marriage and to kids. In fact, he had to propose a couple of times to convince me that he meant it.
2. DH was cheap. Not frugal--cheap. When we first started dating, he was making no money and I was earning plenty, so I paid for almost everything, no problem, including international mission trips that we both did. When he started making a little money, I'd get offended when he would spend it on crap or on futzing around on his Jeep and then tell me he couldn't afford anything that I wanted to do. I did make him take me out to dinner sometimes at that point--usually to an ethnic restaurant, nothing fancy. We broke up one time b/c he refused to spend money on a visit to see me (by then we lived a flight away from each other) after I'd spent money and vacation time visiting him more than once. He was earning some at that point. I needed to know that I was worth his time and his energy and his money. When he did show up, he brought an engagement ring. Before I accepted the ring, I got the stone changed--from a chip to a tiny stone. I made him pay for it.
3. I believe in marriage, and I believe in going "all in." When DH & I (finally) got married, I tackled his debt with our combined income, most of which was earned by me, as if it were OUR debt, because at that point it was. I was happy to eat rice & beans (kind of easy when you're hispanic) and spend very little and simply be together. There is a saying in Spanish, "Contigo, pan y cebollas." With you, bread and onions (is enough). I'm the one who has budgeted and invested and grown our net worth, not by my income alone (we've both had ups and downs with income) but by my work for our family as a single unit. DH doesn't know from budgeting or investing. He's a great DIYer and has saved us thousands in home repairs and improvements. We are a team.
UA, if I were your girlfriend, I'd think you care more about fishing than about me if that's where you're putting your money, your energy, and your time.
iris lilies
9-24-15, 11:48am
I am scared of getting snipped! There is a correlation with dementia and other auto-immune diseases. I am just hoping that birth control works until my gf goes menopausal.
What do you mean sad tale or two?
there were at least two vasectomies that the patients attribute to ongoing physical problems. I believe them.
and let her find someone else probably.
That is exactly what I thought my uncle should of done.
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-15, 11:53am
there were at least two vasectomies that the patients attribute to ongoing physical problems. I believe them.
Well all forms of both control (except pure barrier methods) have potential risks. This is something a woman accepts, that all the methods suck somewhat - pick your poison, because it's she who will be pregnant and btw pregnancy also carries a risk.
It was very selfless of his girlfriend to yield to his wants to be child-free.
I wonder why he did not tell her he was not interested in having kids. I also wonder why she would, around year 14, still think her big day was going to come (followed promptly by a baby carriage).
By then I think she was resigned to "this is all I get".
Ultralight
9-24-15, 12:01pm
I have read this thread with interest, as DH & I appeared to have some similar issues when we dated. I hesitated to reply b/c it can sound pretty bad to some people, and I can sound at times stupid or greedy, but oh well, I don't really care what anyone thinks of it anymore, and I know that DH & I are solid.
1. DH and I dated for 3 years before getting engaged and married within the year after that. We broke up several times during the 3 years, partly b/c he was not interested in getting married again or in having children ever. I proposed to him in the first year or two, and he said, "No thanks. Nothing personal, just not doing that again." Instead of ending our relationship, I decided that he was the best person I knew, that I wanted to be with him, and figured it would end at some point b/c I knew I wanted kids. Instead, he came around to marriage and to kids. In fact, he had to propose a couple of times to convince me that he meant it.
2. DH was cheap. Not frugal--cheap. When we first started dating, he was making no money and I was earning plenty, so I paid for almost everything, no problem, including international mission trips that we both did. When he started making a little money, I'd get offended when he would spend it on crap or on futzing around on his Jeep and then tell me he couldn't afford anything that I wanted to do. I did make him take me out to dinner sometimes at that point--usually to an ethnic restaurant, nothing fancy. We broke up one time b/c he refused to spend money on a visit to see me (by then we lived a flight away from each other) after I'd spent money and vacation time visiting him more than once. He was earning some at that point. I needed to know that I was worth his time and his energy and his money. When he did show up, he brought an engagement ring. Before I accepted the ring, I got the stone changed--from a chip to a tiny stone. I made him pay for it.
3. I believe in marriage, and I believe in going "all in." When DH & I (finally) got married, I tackled his debt with our combined income, most of which was earned by me, as if it were OUR debt, because at that point it was. I was happy to eat rice & beans (kind of easy when you're hispanic) and spend very little and simply be together. There is a saying in Spanish, "Contigo, pan y cebollas." With you, bread and onions (is enough). I'm the one who has budgeted and invested and grown our net worth, not by my income alone (we've both had ups and downs with income) but by my work for our family as a single unit. DH doesn't know from budgeting or investing. He's a great DIYer and has saved us thousands in home repairs and improvements. We are a team.
UA, if I were your girlfriend, I'd think you care more about fishing than about me if that's where you're putting your money, your energy, and your time.
Some folks drink, others take prozac; some smoke Mary Jane, others stare at the idiot box. I go fishing.
I have to do something to keep from going insane.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 12:02pm
By then I think she was resigned to "this is all I get".
So she settled? I think settling is underrated.
... I would date, and I would enter a relationship, but I doubt I'd enter a marriage or even a live-in relationship. I really don't live well with others, I like my space and quiet and alone time.
I couldn't agree more. We sometimes talk about the duplex we'd live in--which usually devolves into an argument about fences, levels, exterior colors...Yeah, no. :D
And I was always completely upfront about not wanting children, which was a moot point since I had my tubes tied in my twenties. I wouldn't conceal something so important.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 12:28pm
I couldn't agree more. We sometimes talk about the duplex we'd live in--which usually devolves into an argument about fences, levels, exterior colors...Yeah, no. :D
And I was always completely upfront about not wanting children, which was a moot point since I had my tubes tied in my twenties. I wouldn't conceal something so important.
Jane: Why did you not want kids? May I ask what made you go to the lengths of getting a tubal in your 20s?
there were at least two vasectomies that the patients attribute to ongoing physical problems. I believe them.I had one nearly 30 years ago, and would do it again although I'd remember this time not to try jumping rain puddles the next day. Did you know you can hear stitches pop?
Ultralight
9-24-15, 12:42pm
I had one nearly 30 years ago, and would do it again although I'd remember this time not to try jumping rain puddles the next day. Did you know you can hear stitches pop?
Ouch!
You would do it all again?! You did not fear complications, illnesses, or that sort of thing?
Jane: Why did you not want kids? May I ask what made you go to the lengths of getting a tubal in your 20s?
Reasons? Too many to count. The short answer is that motherhood never had much appeal for me--it seemed like a whole lot of work for a questionable return; my parents certainly didn't make it look like fun. :-D I wasn't crazy about children even when I was one. I had enough responsibility supporting myself, and I didn't want to give up my independence. I have no regrets.
I was surprised to discover that so many women found/find resistance to getting sterilized after I had my procedure done. I conferred with my doctor and returned a year later to schedule the operation. It was clear I had given it sufficient thought.
iris lilies
9-24-15, 12:52pm
So she settled? I think settling is underrated.
I see people who are ambivalent about their goals. Most of us have some vagaries in our thinking and having children is often one of those things.
But if someone clearly wants children and she is a competent adult, it is totally on her, in my opinion, to go get with a man who shares this important goal. The key word here is "clearly".
I see this all the time on Wedding Bee posts. There is a sad section called "waiting" where women write about waiting for their man to propose. Their biological clock is running out. They can't figure out if he will be up for kids eventually, or not. It's a real life dilemma.
I couldn't agree more. We sometimes talk about the duplex we'd live in--which usually devolves into an argument about fences, levels, exterior colors...Yeah, no. :D
Made me laugh. When we were engaged, DH got sick and tired of all the teasing things men say to each other when someone is going to get married. He decided if one more person said something negative about marriage that was it...we'd just live next to each other. A friend came up to him and said "hey, heard you are getting married!"...DH thought, this is it. Guess, we'll look for a duplex. And the friend said "that's great, you'll love being married!" and walked off. DH ran after him and said "Tell me more!". We ended up being in a newly wed small group that that man and his wife hosted. What a great experience....and no duplex (though sometimes we wished we'd gone that route).
Ultralight
9-24-15, 12:55pm
Reasons? Too many to count. The short answer is that motherhood never had much appeal for me--it seemed like a whole lot of work for a questionable return; my parents certainly didn't make it look like fun. :-D I wasn't crazy about children even when I was one. I had enough responsibility supporting myself, and I didn't want to give up my independence. I have no regrets.
I was surprised to discover that so many women found/find resistance to getting sterilized after I had my procedure done. I conferred with my doctor and returned a year later to schedule the operation. It was clear I had given it sufficient thought.
Amen sistah!
Ultralight
9-24-15, 12:56pm
I see this all the time on Wedding Bee posts. There is a sad section called "waiting" where women write about waiting for their man to propose. Their biological clock is running out. They can't figure out if he will be up for kids eventually, or not. It's a real life dilemma.
This is for real?
iris lilies
9-24-15, 1:12pm
This is for real?
yep,go to Wedding Bee website, the Waiting board, and see all of the discussions about "should I walk"" and setting a "walk date" if dude hasn't proposed by such and such time.
Look, biological clock is reality. It's not just fantasy in women's heads.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 1:16pm
yep,go to Wedding Bee website, the Waiting board, and see all of the discussions about "should I walk"" and setting a "walk date" if dude hasn't proposed by such and such time.
Look, biological clock is reality. It's not just fantasy in women's heads.
Why are they so fixated on getting married though? Something like 40 percent of new moms are not married these days.
I guess that I don't understand why biological clocks are such a worry. Adopting a kid is the same thing. If a woman reaches 45 and then has a hard time getting preggers, why not adopt? That could cut down on that hurried feeling and mean she could not post so much on Wedding Bee.
yep,go to Wedding Bee website, the Waiting board, and see all of the discussions about "should I walk"" and setting a "walk date" if dude hasn't proposed by such and such time.
oh my word. why don't these women just propose to their significant others themselves? egads.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 1:25pm
oh my word. why don't these women just propose to their significant others themselves? egads.
That would be unbecoming of a lady.
Ouch!
You would do it all again?! You did not fear complications, illnesses, or that sort of thing?Sure I'd do it again. I'd think any man who no longer wished to procreate would take responsibility for his own fertility. That is, if he was responsible.
oh my word. why don't these women just propose to their significant others themselves? egads.
Because they're spineless ninnies? I would expect so, if they're on a "Waiting" board. So much of how women are socialized to act makes me gag.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 1:27pm
So much of how women are socialized to act makes me gag.
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
see your post above about being 'ladylike'.
Because they're spineless ninnies? I would expect so, if they're on a "Waiting" board. So much of how women are socialized to act makes me gag.
hahah, ninnies. such an awesome word. it all makes me want to gag as well.
iris lilies
9-24-15, 2:00pm
Why are they so fixated on getting married though? Something like 40 percent of new moms are not married these days.
I guess that I don't understand why biological clocks are such a worry. Adopting a kid is the same thing. If a woman reaches 45 and then has a hard time getting preggers, why not adopt? That could cut down on that hurried feeling and mean she could not post so much on Wedding Bee.
I know your question is sincere but I suspect a little snark behind it. That's ok, Im pretty snarky myself so I will 'splain to you:
The 40% who aren't married occupy the lowest rungs of socio- economic society. If one wishes to join those ranks with babies in tow, go for it. I think that's stupid and irresponsible, I don't value poverty, but hey, those are MY values.
And that's what we are talking about here, values.
While a woman CAN reproduce without a man's commitment to his children as expressed by a legalized marriage ceremony, I think this cheats children out of important things. There are lots of details to this idea but
I'm giving you the executive summary.
Your idea that women should just want what you think they should have is silly.
Turning this on you, why don't you live with your girlfriend in her big house with all of her stuff,and get used to pooling your money with her so that you both can buy more crap and rack up the credit card debt? you don't because: that's not what you value.
Many women value a commitment as represented by a legally recognized public joining. On another thread we are talking about the legally supported financial institutions of society, one of them spousal Social Scurity benefits, and that's one among many reasons to get hitched legally.
I recognize that for some people, commitment without marriage is what they value. That's fine. I just think that in the vast majority of cases where they bring children into the world, kids are best served by two committed parents with legal protections.
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-15, 2:00pm
You did not fear complications, illnesses, or that sort of thing?
well read about female sterilization it's a much bigger operation than a vasectomy - MUCH, then read about IUDs and how painful some women describe them as being to have inserted (they are but so is going through labor and probably worse) and what could go wrong (puncturing the uterus requiring surgical removal, but it's rare, or they could not take and keep coming out and having to be inserted again each time with less chance of working), and how some women have severe cramps afterward time of month and not time of month, then even read about how many side effects hormonal birth control has for some women (weight gain, craziness, nausea, lack of sex drive - in which case why even bother). And after you are done with that abstinence will start to sound good :)
yes my point of view most of the time is men don't understand anything, doh men - haha I never said they should date me (and they think there is something wrong with you if you take birth control more seriously than them, why worry your pretty little head about that dear .....) But Alan is too cool :)
Ultralight
9-24-15, 2:03pm
I know your question is sincere but I suspect a little snark behind it. That's ok, Im pretty snarky myself so I will 'splain to you:
The 40% who aren't married occupy the lowest rungs of socio- economic society. If one wishes to join those ranks with babies in tow, go for it. I think that's stupid and irresponsible, I don't value poverty, but hey, those are MY values.
And that's what we are talking about here, values.
While a woman CAN reproduce without a man's commitment to his children as expressed by a legalized marriage ceremony, I think this cheats children out of important things. There are lots of details to this idea but
I'm giving you the executive summary.
Your idea that women should just want what you think they should have is silly.
Turning this on you, why don't you live with your girlfriend in her big house with all of her stuff,and get used to pooling your money with her so that you both can buy more crap and rack up the credit card debt? It's because: that's not what you value.
Many women value a commitment as represented by a legally recognized public joining. On another thread we are talking about the legally supported financial institutions of society, one of them spousal Social Scurity benefits, and that's one among many reasons to get hitched legally.
I recognize that for some people, commitment without marriage is what they value. That's fine. I just think that in the vast majority of cases where they bring children into the world, kids are best served by two committed parents with legal protections.
I agree with most of this and still see your point on the things I am dubious about. :)
I've always felt that if the top five most important things to you are much different (or worse, totally opposite) than the top five most important things to your SO, things probably won't work out in the long term.
Why not alternate locations each week? Have her come to your place and you treat her, and she treats you when you go to her place? And maybe take a class or share an activity that's new to the both of you that you'd both enjoy?
Attraction only goes so far. The last guy I dated was a very devout Christian. Although we were greatly attracted to each other, it didn't work. He spent the entire time trying to convert me to his religion, which was very important to him. I had no interest in it, and although I loved being with him, often wished I was out riding my horse instead of hearing about Jesus all the time.
I have read this thread with interest, as DH & I appeared to have some similar issues when we dated. I hesitated to reply b/c it can sound pretty bad to some people, and I can sound at times stupid or greedy, but oh well, I don't really care what anyone thinks of it anymore, and I know that DH & I are solid.
1. DH and I dated for 3 years before getting engaged and married within the year after that. We broke up several times during the 3 years, partly b/c he was not interested in getting married again or in having children ever. I proposed to him in the first year or two, and he said, "No thanks. Nothing personal, just not doing that again." Instead of ending our relationship, I decided that he was the best person I knew, that I wanted to be with him, and figured it would end at some point b/c I knew I wanted kids. Instead, he came around to marriage and to kids. In fact, he had to propose a couple of times to convince me that he meant it.
2. DH was cheap. Not frugal--cheap. When we first started dating, he was making no money and I was earning plenty, so I paid for almost everything, no problem, including international mission trips that we both did. When he started making a little money, I'd get offended when he would spend it on crap or on futzing around on his Jeep and then tell me he couldn't afford anything that I wanted to do. I did make him take me out to dinner sometimes at that point--usually to an ethnic restaurant, nothing fancy. We broke up one time b/c he refused to spend money on a visit to see me (by then we lived a flight away from each other) after I'd spent money and vacation time visiting him more than once. He was earning some at that point. I needed to know that I was worth his time and his energy and his money. When he did show up, he brought an engagement ring. Before I accepted the ring, I got the stone changed--from a chip to a tiny stone. I made him pay for it.
3. I believe in marriage, and I believe in going "all in." When DH & I (finally) got married, I tackled his debt with our combined income, most of which was earned by me, as if it were OUR debt, because at that point it was. I was happy to eat rice & beans (kind of easy when you're hispanic) and spend very little and simply be together. There is a saying in Spanish, "Contigo, pan y cebollas." With you, bread and onions (is enough). I'm the one who has budgeted and invested and grown our net worth, not by my income alone (we've both had ups and downs with income) but by my work for our family as a single unit. DH doesn't know from budgeting or investing. He's a great DIYer and has saved us thousands in home repairs and improvements. We are a team.
UA, if I were your girlfriend, I'd think you care more about fishing than about me if that's where you're putting your money, your energy, and your time.
Why would you think this would make you sound stupid or greedy? It sounds to me like you knew what you wanted, you made conscious and well-thought out decisions, and you were clear about what was important to you. This sounds pretty great to me!
Every couple is going to have to navigate the ups and downs and compromises inherent in any relationship, but being direct and honest about who you are and what's important to you seems the best way be. Personally, I don't think 2 dates a month is unreasonable, if they are affordable to the people involved. If I was dating a guy who scoffed at that, I would see it as a sign that it was time for me to move on. At that point, he could decide if he valued spending time with me more than fishing several times a week, or not.
I have a niece who at 37 became obsessed with the biological clock urge. She joined match.com and found her eventual mate there within a year and found exactly what she wanted - athletic, well-paid professional who wanted two kids and the lifestyle she was accustomed to. It seems to have worked out for them - six years later, he is making the big bucks, she stays home and raises a boy and a girl. She assumes she can resume her career when they are older.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 2:10pm
I've always felt that if the top five most important things to you are much different (or worse, totally opposite) than the top five most important things to your SO, things probably won't work out in the long term.
Why not alternate locations each week? Have her come to your place and you treat her, and she treats you when you go to her place? And maybe take a class or share an activity that's new to the both of you that you'd both enjoy?
Attraction only goes so far. The last guy I dated was a very devout Christian. Although we were greatly attracted to each other, it didn't work. He spent the entire time trying to convert me to his religion, which was very important to him. I had no interest in it, and although I loved being with him, often wished I was out riding my horse instead of hearing about Jesus all the time.
Sorry that your relationship met such a fate. :(
She and I don't talk about religion very much.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 2:12pm
Why would you think this would make you sound stupid or greedy? It sounds to me like you knew what you wanted, you made conscious and well-thought out choices, and you were clear about what was important to you. This sounds pretty great to me!
Every couple is going to have to navigate the ups and downs and compromises inherent in any relationship, but being direct and honest about who you are and what's important to you seems the best way be. Personally, I don't think 2 dates a month is unreasonable, if they are affordable to the people involved. If I was dating a guy who scoffed at that, I would see it as a sign that it was time for me to move on. At that point, he could decide if he valued spending time with me more than fishing several times a week, or not.
Take it easy! I am giving her the dates and changing my name on here from UltraliteAngler to UltraBrokeDater. ;)
Ultralight
9-24-15, 2:16pm
I have a niece who at 37 became obsessed with the biological clock urge. She joined match.com and found her eventual mate there within a year and found exactly what she wanted - athletic, well-paid professional who wanted two kids and the lifestyle she was accustomed to. It seems to have worked out for them - six years later, he is making the big bucks, she stays home and raises a boy and a girl. She assumes she can resume her career when they are older.
Match.com should make a commercial with her in it! Many, many women on match.com are 37 and obsessed with their bio-clocks. I have been on second dates where women are naming our three kids that have to be born in the next three years!
Before I met one woman she said in the first online conversation: "I really want to be a mom. I am 40! This needs to happen soon."
I was still talking to her about which gourmet pizza place she wanted to go to on our first date. Then BLAM!
freshstart
9-24-15, 2:17pm
I cant tell from the Rev.UL's description if this is dating still, but with all of his doubts about their conflicting values, this is not a committed relationship or at least he isn't comimited,,we don't know about her. And the problem with these kinds of half-in half-out relationships is that they take up all of your time, and you aren't free to find the person who is a match.
+2
iris lilies
9-24-15, 2:20pm
Match.com should make a commercial with her in it! Many, many women on match.com are 37 and obsessed with their bio-clocks. I have been on second dates where women are naming our three kids that have to be born in the next three years!
Before I met one woman she said in the first online conversation: "I really want to be a mom. I am 40! This needs to happen soon."
I was still talking to her about which gourmet pizza place she wanted to go to on our first date. Then BLAM!
she did you a favor. not a match! Move on.
Take it easy! I am giving her the dates and changing my name on here from UltraliteAngler to UltraBrokeDater. ;)
Oh, it's so big of you to "give" her the dates!:) As if the dates are such a hardship! Poor Guy :(. If you were my boyfriend, you would be changing your name to UltraSingleAngler! :):) But that's just me, either you want to be with me, or you don't. I have no patience for fence-sitters or wishy-washy in that area.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 2:23pm
she did you a favor. not a match! Move on.
I know. We ended up getting dinner and going to a bookstore just for fun because she was new in town. :)
In a way I felt bad for her... But the interesting thing is that all her friends and her 2 sisters were in the same boat! Educated, accomplished, good jobs -- no marriage or even prospects.
freshstart
9-24-15, 2:23pm
I am scared of getting snipped! There is a correlation with dementia and other auto-immune diseases. I am just hoping that birth control works until my gf goes menopausal.
are you aware of how many "menopause" babies there are? Do not count on that. If I were that opposed to kids and to getting snipped, my plan would be condoms, spermicide and an IUD for her, lol
Ultralight
9-24-15, 2:24pm
Oh, it's so big of you to "give" her the dates!:) As if the dates are such a hardship! Poor Guy :(. If you were my boyfriend, you would be changing your name to UltraSingleAngler! :):) But that's just me, either you want to be with me, or you don't. I have no patience for fence-sitters or wishy-washy in that area.
I was being cynical. I apologize. I promise I am way more fun and not so severe at all in real life.
TVRodriguez
9-24-15, 2:28pm
I know your question is sincere but I suspect a little snark behind it. That's ok, Im pretty snarky myself so I will 'splain to you:
The 40% who aren't married occupy the lowest rungs of socio- economic society. If one wishes to join those ranks with babies in tow, go for it. I think that's stupid and irresponsible, I don't value poverty, but hey, those are MY values.
And that's what we are talking about here, values.
While a woman CAN reproduce without a man's commitment to his children as expressed by a legalized marriage ceremony, I think this cheats children out of important things. There are lots of details to this idea but
I'm giving you the executive summary.
Your idea that women should just want what you think they should have is silly.
Turning this on you, why don't you live with your girlfriend in her big house with all of her stuff,and get used to pooling your money with her so that you both can buy more crap and rack up the credit card debt? you don't because: that's not what you value.
Many women value a commitment as represented by a legally recognized public joining. On another thread we are talking about the legally supported financial institutions of society, one of them spousal Social Scurity benefits, and that's one among many reasons to get hitched legally.
I recognize that for some people, commitment without marriage is what they value. That's fine. I just think that in the vast majority of cases where they bring children into the world, kids are best served by two committed parents with legal protections.
Similarly, I knew that I wanted kids but also knew that they are a lot of work and cost money, work and expenses that can most easily and efficiently be shared by two parents who live together and who have committed to staying together. That can be done without marriage, and of course there are many great kids who are raised in other circumstances. I know myself, however, and that's not what I wanted.
Why would you think this would make you sound stupid or greedy? It sounds to me like you knew what you wanted, you made conscious and well-thought out decisions, and you were clear about what was important to you. This sounds pretty great to me!
Every couple is going to have to navigate the ups and downs and compromises inherent in any relationship, but being direct and honest about who you are and what's important to you seems the best way be. Personally, I don't think 2 dates a month is unreasonable, if they are affordable to the people involved. If I was dating a guy who scoffed at that, I would see it as a sign that it was time for me to move on. At that point, he could decide if he valued spending time with me more than fishing several times a week, or not.
Thanks, and yes, I agree. As for sounding stupid, I fielded regular questions from some friends who asked me why I'd stay with someone who told me he didn't want to get married, that I was wasting my time. I also got flack for quitting my job (in a profession) to move 1300 miles, where I'd have to take another bar exam, when he could more easily have moved back to where we met. The day after our wedding, my brother kindly reminded me that there was still time for an annulment. I decided DH was worth it. On the greedy thing, well, heck, I made him pay more to "upgrade" my ring and spent $34,000 on a wedding.
Take it easy! I am giving her the dates and changing my name on here from UltraliteAngler to UltraBrokeDater. ;)
UA, I have to give it up to you: you have taken a lot of heat over your positions here, and I give you a lot of credit for keeping your equanimity through it all. I can imagine that to be one of the reasons your girlfriend likes you!
freshstart
9-24-15, 2:34pm
I don't think I would ever enter a marriage again. I would date, and I would enter a relationship, but I doubt I'd enter a marriage or even a live-in relationship. I really don't live well with others, I like my space and quiet and alone time.
I had minor relationships of several years, married 10 yrs, LTR 7 yrs (did not live together d/t kid logistics), IDK if it's because I have been unwell or age (45), no age can't be it, for some reason I just don't care. I don't feel like being wined and dined even by someone exactly my type, going to plays, museums, traveling, music, even physical closeness and I definitely do not want co-habitation. I have no idea if this is normal at 45, I suspect not, but I want none of it. It's probably that I just feel like crap and cannot begin to figure out how to get back out there when the odds are good for the eventual public faceplant. But shouldn't I be sad and upset that I cannot date now? I'm really not, it's so weird.
rodeosweetheart
9-24-15, 2:36pm
Attraction only goes so far. The last guy I dated was a very devout Christian. Although we were greatly attracted to each other, it didn't work. He spent the entire time trying to convert me to his religion, which was very important to him. I had no interest in it, and although I loved being with him, often wished I was out riding my horse instead of hearing about Jesus all the time.
Unless it was John Lyons. . .
freshstart
9-24-15, 2:37pm
And the friend said "that's great, you'll love being married!" and walked off. DH ran after him and said "Tell me more!". We ended up being in a newly wed small group that that man and his wife hosted. What a great experience....and no duplex (though sometimes we wished we'd gone that route).
love this!
Thanks, and yes, I agree. As for sounding stupid, I fielded regular questions from some friends who asked me why I'd stay with someone who told me he didn't want to get married, that I was wasting my time. I also got flack for quitting my job (in a profession) to move 1300 miles, where I'd have to take another bar exam, when he could more easily have moved back to where we met. The day after our wedding, my brother kindly reminded me that there was still time for an annulment. I decided DH was worth it. On the greedy thing, well, heck, I made him pay more to "upgrade" my ring and spent $34,000 on a wedding.
UA, I have to give it up to you: you have taken a lot of heat over your positions here, and I give you a lot of credit for keeping your equanimity through it all. I can imagine that to be one of the reasons your girlfriend likes you!
Again, I think you're being unduly hard on yourself by labeling yourself greedy. If the ring and the wedding were important to you, and you guys could afford it, how is that greedy?
When DH and I got married, I was happy to have a simple private ceremony, but he wanted a bigger celebration and he was happy to pay for it (I had no $, as I had a house payment already). We had a beautiful wedding and I'm so glad that he wanted to do it. It's not something I would have done for myself, but it truly was a magical once-in-a-lifetime experience, and he/we could afford it. So why not?
ETA: I suspect the GF likes UltraLiteAngler for his hot body, but he's too shy and modest to admit it! :)
Ultralight
9-24-15, 2:43pm
ETA: I suspect the GF likes UltraLiteAngler for his hot body, but he's too shy and modest to admit it! :)
LOL!
I am pasty white, doughy, balding, and middle aged! I think she was just finally like: "A guy that can spell and has a job...score!"
Ultralight
9-24-15, 2:44pm
UA, I have to give it up to you: you have taken a lot of heat over your positions here, and I give you a lot of credit for keeping your equanimity through it all. I can imagine that to be one of the reasons your girlfriend likes you!
Thank you.
freshstart
9-24-15, 2:56pm
I had one nearly 30 years ago, and would do it again although I'd remember this time not to try jumping rain puddles the next day. Did you know you can hear stitches pop?
I worked for 4 male radiation oncologists so lots of talk about prostates that devolved into conversation about male junk in general over lunch. 2 had had vasectomies, 1 was gay and 1 had 4 boys with a wife deadset on having a girl while he was totally done. They did tell me women had 20 times the risk of complications of a tubal over a vasectomy and they each said they would do that and not even consider tubals. I was happy with what I was doing, hit menopause early, never had to do anything. Well, the poor guy ended up with one more pregnancy but it sadly ended in miscarriage of a boy. He got the vasectomy, he worked the next day (I don't think you are supposed to do that). A few years later, my friends and family members reached that age, issues with decades on the pill, tired of hormones even in an IUD and DHs who were not about to go back to condoms. 1 by 1, the vasectomies started, besides the normal male crying over anything medical, only my cousin had a problem, massive swelling. Probably because he went back to work the next day as a motorcycle cop, duh.
freshstart
9-24-15, 3:04pm
Why are they so fixated on getting married though? Something like 40 percent of new moms are not married these days.
I guess that I don't understand why biological clocks are such a worry. Adopting a kid is the same thing. If a woman reaches 45 and then has a hard time getting preggers, why not adopt? That could cut down on that hurried feeling and mean she could not post so much on Wedding Bee.
if her biological clocking is in overdrive in her late 30s onward and finally realizes it is not going to happen, 45 feels old to start a family even by adoption. If she wants that fine. I don't think biological clocks are just a "worry", I think it's multifactorial, raging baby wanting hormones being one. And as for adopting a child being the same thing maybe on paper, I think there are a lot of women who would disagree with you. Are their reasons "right", are they selfish to want to carry their own baby? I'm not touching that one.
freshstart
9-24-15, 3:06pm
Because they're spineless ninnies? I would expect so, if they're on a "Waiting" board. So much of how women are socialized to act makes me gag.
+1 x10
oops, I guess that should just be +10, lol
Ultralight
9-24-15, 3:08pm
if her biological clocking is in overdrive in her late 30s onward and finally realizes it is not going to happen, 45 feels old to start a family even by adoption. If she wants that fine. I don't think biological clocks are just a "worry", I think it's multifactorial, raging baby wanting hormones being one. And as for adopting a child being the same thing maybe on paper, I think there are a lot of women who would disagree with you. Are their reasons "right", are they selfish to want to carry their own baby? I'm not touching that one.
I had a female friend in graduate school who called "raging baby wanting hormones" the baby rabies. haha
Another female friend simply calls it baby fever.
My ex told me once that she'd occasionally just have this "inexplicable urge to be pregnant." She did not rationally want kids, so she would let it pass, talk herself out of it, laugh at it, etc.
What do you mean?
Did you just wake up on this planet? Damn, we need a ROFL emoji.
Grab a thesaurus and look up "feminine." Or pick up a woman's magazine. Helpless, limited, mealy-mouthed, dissembling...on and on. Stereotypical males have their own limitations.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 3:13pm
Did you just wake up on this planet? Damn, we need a ROFL emoji.
Grab a thesaurus and look up "feminine." Or pick up a woman's magazine. Helpless, limited, mealy-mouthed, dissembling...on and on. Stereotypical males have their own limitations.
Jane: Like it volleyball, I was setting you for a spike! I was hoping you'd go on a tirade and say insightful and perhaps darkly funny stuff.
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-15, 3:14pm
if her biological clocking is in overdrive in her late 30s onward and finally realizes it is not going to happen, 45 feels old to start a family even by adoption.
it is kinda
If she wants that fine. I don't think biological clocks are just a "worry", I think it's multifactorial, raging baby wanting hormones being one.
I'm not sure what this even means, unless it just means being horny or something (ok maybe 30 something is a woman's sexual peak, that I could believe). I think maybe a woman might wonder if she is missing anything by not having kids, especially if everyone around her does and it's all they talk about. Wondering if they might enjoy it or find it meaningful. But I don't think it has anything to do with hormones really.
freshstart
9-24-15, 3:18pm
I recognize that for some people, commitment without marriage is what they value. That's fine. I just think that in the vast majority of cases where they bring children into the world, kids are best served by two committed parents with legal protections.
agreed. I understand a woman's desire not to marry, but should she have a child outside of marriage, she does not have much of a safety net for either of them if things go south. I liked when men and women entered into domestic partnership in NY, but they got taxed on receiving their partners benefits, like health insurance. So marriage provides legal protections to both. Not a huge marriage fan now, but I would never have a child with a man I'm in a relationship with without a marriage. You would not believe the legal issues that come up when divorcing with children. Imagine determining any of that stuff with no marriage to "protect" you.
is it some woman-empowering thing to have kids sans marriage but stay in LTR? because, unless you are a high earner, disentangling from that mess is anything but empowering
well read about female sterilization it's a much bigger operation than a vasectomy - MUCH, ...
yes my point of view most of the time is men don't understand anything, doh men - haha I never said they should date me (and they think there is something wrong with you if you take birth control more seriously than them, why worry your pretty little head about that dear .....) But Alan is too cool :)
A tubal ligation is analogous to a vasectomy; they access the fallopian tubes and cut, tie, and/or cauterize them. I had some discomfort for a day or so. I've had much worse experiences at the dentist's office. And no side effects of any kind.
It was important for me to take responsibility for birth control; it was no one's responsibility but mine and I would have been the one to live with the consequences of any failure. I believe it's up to the partner who most wants not to be a parent to take action.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 3:24pm
agreed. I understand a woman's desire not to marry, but should she have a child outside of marriage, she does not have much of a safety net for either of them if things go south. I liked when men and women entered into domestic partnership in NY, but they got taxed on receiving their partners benefits, like health insurance. So marriage provides legal protections to both. Not a huge marriage fan now, but I would never have a child with a man I'm in a relationship with without a marriage. You would not believe the legal issues that come up when divorcing with children. Imagine determining any of that stuff with no marriage to "protect" you.
is it some woman-empowering thing to have kids sans marriage but stay in LTR? because, unless you are a high earner, disentangling from that mess is anything but empowering
Uh... have you not heard the incessantly-repeated phrase "I don't even need a man! I'm an independent woman."?
What is humorous is how that phrase and similarly worded phrases are used on internet dating sites. I talked and went on so many dates with women who would say that to me: "I don't even need a man!" or, with slightly more tact: "I don't need a man, but I want a husband someday who'll be a father to my kids." Uh...what?!
It was jarring.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 3:31pm
agreed. I understand a woman's desire not to marry, but should she have a child outside of marriage, she does not have much of a safety net for either of them if things go south. I liked when men and women entered into domestic partnership in NY, but they got taxed on receiving their partners benefits, like health insurance. So marriage provides legal protections to both. Not a huge marriage fan now, but I would never have a child with a man I'm in a relationship with without a marriage. You would not believe the legal issues that come up when divorcing with children. Imagine determining any of that stuff with no marriage to "protect" you.
is it some woman-empowering thing to have kids sans marriage but stay in LTR? because, unless you are a high earner, disentangling from that mess is anything but empowering
This book I am reading called Promises I Can Keep sheds some light on this maybe...
Apparently many single moms in the "ghetto" or disadvantaged urban neighborhoods have bizarre views of marriage. The authors cited an example of how they were talking to a group of inner city single moms and the single moms said things like: "You white women are sure into your husbands."
It was like they saw marrying a guy as taxing to their grit, resources, and independence to mother their kids the way they want. But they would still live with a boyfriend, or more likely a string of boyfriends with whom they'd have a kid and then split and repeat.
But at the same time they think of marriage as something that their great-grandparents did "back in the day." A few women said things like: "We don't believe in divorce. That is why none of the women in my family are married."
There were lots of other wacky things along these lines.
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-15, 3:33pm
"need" tends to imply helplessness and dependence, I can see not embracing the word. FWIW I have never placed a personal like that but I imagine.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 3:37pm
"need" tends to imply helplessness and dependence, I can see not embracing the word. FWIW I have never placed a personal like that but I imagine.
I need water, food, sleep, and shelter to live. I need certain kinds of relationships to be happy -- friends and a life partner, maybe family too. haha
freshstart
9-24-15, 3:44pm
i I'm not sure what this even means, unless it just means being horny or something (ok maybe 30 something is a woman's sexual peak, that I could believe). I think maybe a woman might wonder if she is missing anything by not having kids, especially if everyone around her does and it's all they talk about. Wondering if they might enjoy it or find it meaningful. But I don't think it has anything to do with hormones really.
true as this is when hormones beneficial for pregnancy and motherhood are declining. It's not hormones but I've seen wistful 38 yr olds who would maybe like a baby to crazed, asking everyone to set her up so she can develop a relationship quickly and get that golden ring- a baby. I knew a lot of the latter. A door perhaps starting to close and desperately trying to bide time before it does.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 3:47pm
true as this is when hormones beneficial for pregnancy and motherhood are declining. It's not hormones but I've seen wistful 38 yr olds who would maybe like a baby to crazed, asking everyone to set her up so she can develop a relationship quickly and get that golden ring- a baby. I knew a lot of the latter. A door perhaps starting to close and desperately trying to bide time before it does.
A very close friend of mine told me, at age 37, that she values having a baby more than her husband. She lamented his lack of understanding. I asked: "Did you tell him that you'd rather have a baby than him? Did that motivate him to 'try' more often?"
Strange situation...
Ultralight
9-24-15, 3:49pm
Noteworthy on the vasectomy issue: A few women I went on dates with told me -- either outright or subtly -- to consider getting a "secret v-sec" if I did not want kids because otherwise I'd never meet someone because I was up front about not wanting kids. They obviously sent me on my way, but this was their parting advice.
TVRodriguez
9-24-15, 3:52pm
"I don't need a man, but I want a husband someday who'll be a father to my kids." Uh...what?!
It was jarring.
I don't see what's jarring about that. Personally, I don't need a man. I love my husband, and I want him around. But I don't need him. And yes, one of the reasons I want him is because he is a wonderful father to OUR kids. Want vs. need. I could have lived a very fulfilling life without him or any man, I believe. But I would rather have him than not. Because I want him. Same with kids. I don't need to have kids, but I wanted them, and now I have them.
I'm not sure what this even means, unless it just means being horny or something (ok maybe 30 something is a woman's sexual peak, that I could believe).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcKKY3WjzB4
freshstart
9-24-15, 3:54pm
Uh... have you not heard the incessantly-repeated phrase "I don't even need a man! I'm an independent woman."?
What is humorous is how that phrase and similarly worded phrases are used on internet dating sites. I talked and went on so many dates with women who would say that to me: "I don't even need a man!" or, with slightly more tact: "I don't need a man, but I want a husband someday who'll be a father to my kids." Uh...what?!
It was jarring.
yeah, heard it, then had baby without marriage, and changed their tune to "this sucks, I am getting screwed because I tried to be an independent woman!" when they find themselves fighting for custody, paternity and child support.
freshstart
9-24-15, 3:57pm
A very close friend of mine told me, at age 37, that she values having a baby more than her husband. She lamented his lack of understanding. I asked: "Did you tell him that you'd rather have a baby than him? Did that motivate him to 'try' more often?"
Strange situation...
wouldn't that motivate him to walk out the door?
Ultralight
9-24-15, 4:03pm
wouldn't that motivate him to walk out the door?
Probably... but I cautioned her to hold her tongue. Maybe when the baby fever passes she'll be happy to just have a supportive husband who fixes stuff, grows a garden of delicious veggies, takes care of their dogs, works steady, and puts up with her totally intense schedule as a pediatrician. She has lots of nieces, nephews, and such in her big, close family.
Maybe that hormonal motherhood thing is a function of the MEST gene. I suspect not everyone has it; certainly it doesn't run strong in my family. I never had the slightest twinge of "baby fever." But if I did know I wanted a baby, I'd plan carefully for one and consider artificial insemination by someone known to me, if marriage didn't come easily or naturally.
It seems to me distasteful to glom on to the nearest man in some panic-stricken race against the clock. I get that two loving parents comprise the gold standard, but I've known women who chose not to marry the father of their children for various (good) reasons, and those children are happy and healthy. A solid extended family can work wonders in such situations.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 4:08pm
You know, the more I think about it the more I have no clue what my gf really wants regarding marriage. No clue.
Is she being quiet and "waiting?" Or is she older now and is just "over it."
freshstart
9-24-15, 4:09pm
Noteworthy on the vasectomy issue: A few women I went on dates with told me -- either outright or subtly -- to consider getting a "secret v-sec" if I did not want kids because otherwise I'd never meet someone because I was up front about not wanting kids. They obviously sent me on my way, but this was their parting advice.
I heard that, too, the men would say they were told that. Many of them realized this was kind of good advice, say you do not want children so much so you've had a vasectomy, date ends. Hopefully he put the money he saved on his "imaginary" vasectomy into his 401k
I used to help by BFF, a man, find appropriate women his age and demographic on Match, he was 55, 5'5", chubby, a little Mr Magoo with his vision, old acne scars, but he was a lawyer and that got him dates with what frankly, looked like Russian Brides for Sale. He could never "keep" these women and could not understand why. He loved art, literature, poetry, fine food, romantic trips, classical music, interior design. His dates liked the fine food but bailed after one romantic trip. And he'd start all over. Perusing women 25-30 on Match who were hot and not looking to marry or even date him. he'd get a few dates because he's a lawyer but that can't overcome being 30 yrs older, 4" shorter and she gets none of you clever references. It took two years of convincing and trial and error, he met and married a wonderful, beautiful woman his age with her own career and loved him for him, not his assets.
I have no idea what my point was, I had one and forgot it
Ultralight
9-24-15, 4:13pm
I heard that, too, the men would say they were told that. Many of them realized this was kind of good advice, say you do not want children so much so you've had a vasectomy, date ends. Hopefully he put the money he saved on his "imaginary" vasectomy into his 401k.
No, they suggested I get a secret v-sec and then just be like: "I dunno why you're no preggers, hun! Guess we'll keep trying..."
Point is: They thought my romantic situation was hopeless! haha
Other women told me, as parting advice: "Date a single mom. Then she already has a kid and it is not yours! And a single mom will be very appreciative to have you."
What?!
Ultralight
9-24-15, 4:15pm
I used to help by BFF, a man, find appropriate women his age and demographic on Match, he was 55, 5'5", chubby, a little Mr Magoo with his vision, old acne scars, but he was a lawyer and that got him dates with what frankly, looked like Russian Brides for Sale. He could never "keep" these women and could not understand why. He loved art, literature, poetry, fine food, romantic trips, classical music, interior design. His dates liked the fine food but bailed after one romantic trip. And he'd start all over. Perusing women 25-30 on Match who were hot and not looking to marry or even date him. he'd get a few dates because he's a lawyer but that can't overcome being 30 yrs older, 4" shorter and she gets none of you clever references. It took two years of convincing and trial and error, he met and married a wonderful, beautiful woman his age with her own career and loved him for him, not his assets.
This is an important lesson all men should learn: "I don't get all the women I want. I get all the women that want me." -- David Lee Roth
If you are not a rock star that translates into: "You get very few!" haha
freshstart
9-24-15, 4:17pm
It seems to me distasteful to glom on to the nearest man in some panic-stricken race against the clock. I get that two loving parents comprise the gold standard, but I've known women who chose not to marry the father of their children for various (good) reasons, and those children are happy and healthy. A solid extended family can work wonders in such situations.
or even a circle of friends.
I don't think I have a very strong MEST gene. I was equally happy to try for kids or not, had them, they are wonderful and beyond what I ever imagined but I can picture a life without children (leaving my emotions and deep love for my own children out of this) being fulfilling and satisfactory as well. I had kids young, when said friends started with baby fever, a part of me wondered if this was just a thing in your 30s and I'd have it too. Never did and I'm glad, we are good with what we have in each other.
freshstart
9-24-15, 4:27pm
This is an important lesson all men should learn: "I don't get all the women I want. I get all the women that want me." -- David Lee Roth
If you are not a rock star that translates into: "You get very few!" haha
how true for most, but I prefer brains
what phrase did you see on Match or the like, over and over but expressed as if the person just breezily thought of it? the biggest one affecting me was "fiscally conservative, socially liberal", I saw and heard this so many times and it is utter BS 95% of the time. But my all time favorite started out being a chick line "all of my baggage fits in the overhead compartment!", I saw this all the time when I was helping my friend. Then the men got hold of it and every person acted like it was a clever line they'd just came up with!
yeah, well, there are those packing bags that all the air is removed so they take up 1/3 of the space, anyone who said that stupid line had those bags and unlucky for you should one pop open to real life size!
Ultralight
9-24-15, 5:14pm
how true for most, but I prefer brains
what phrase did you see on Match or the like, over and over but expressed as if the person just breezily thought of it? the biggest one affecting me was "fiscally conservative, socially liberal", I saw and heard this so many times and it is utter BS 95% of the time. But my all time favorite started out being a chick line "all of my baggage fits in the overhead compartment!", I saw this all the time when I was helping my friend. Then the men got hold of it and every person acted like it was a clever line they'd just came up with!
yeah, well, there are those packing bags that all the air is removed so they take up 1/3 of the space, anyone who said that stupid line had those bags and unlucky for you should one pop open to real life size!
Another classic used by the ladies on dating sites: "If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best."
I'd see that and be like: "Next!"
Another classic used by the ladies on dating sites: "If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best."
I'd see that and be like: "Next!"
Mood swings, anyone? Check your blood sugar, Toots!
Ultralight
9-24-15, 9:22pm
Mood swings, anyone? Check your blood sugar, Toots!
I heard it was originally attributed to Marilyn Monroe. :(
freshstart
9-24-15, 9:22pm
Another classic used by the ladies on dating sites: "If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best."
I'd see that and be like: "Next!"
OMG, that's a good one. It was hard not to want to edit and rewrite it for them, lol. My friend and I were thinking we could totally do this, $20, we'll make your profile a witty masterpiece, well, we'll make it less shitty and more likely to get you laid! Match was an adventure, apparently I do not have good searchable terms to look for a certain kind of guy. I searched "the New Yorker", 1 hit, a woman, we wrote each other how bad our dates were, cracked each other up for months. Then she told me she was bisexual and I already knew she liked the New Yorker!
Anyway, while be driven around town to see doctors, I have a solution for your problem: friends with benefits. That's perfect for two people like you, you kinda suspect this is not going to lead to marriage, unless it changes. And maybe it would if you said you think you should both see other people, you'll realize pretty quick if you want her and only her and I'm guessing so will she. I wouldn't present it as FWB, though, just keep that in your noggin.
Ultralight
9-24-15, 9:30pm
OMG, that's a good one. It was hard not to want to edit and rewrite it for them, lol. My friend and I were thinking we could totally do this, $20, we'll make your profile a witty masterpiece, well, we'll make it less shitty and more likely to get you laid! Match was an adventure, apparently I do not have good searchable terms to look for a certain kind of guy. I searched "the New Yorker", 1 hit, a woman, we wrote each other how bad our dates were, cracked each other up for months. Then she told me she was bisexual and I already knew she liked the New Yorker!
Anyway, while be driven around town to see doctors, I have a solution for your problem: friends with benefits. That's perfect for two people like you, you kinda suspect this is not going to lead to marriage, unless it changes. And maybe it would if you said you think you should both see other people, you'll realize pretty quick if you want her and only her and I'm guessing so will she. I wouldn't present it as FWB, though, just keep that in your noggin.
She is super Christian and therefore does not believe in FWB.
I am not much of a FWB type guy anyway... though it sounds fun on paper. I really try to do right by any woman I date.
On Match.com I noticed the "Match Clones." There was this huge class of women on there who essentially had the same profile!
"I love to travel. I am a big fan of (insert popular sports team in my area here). My family and friends mean the world to me. I have an amazing puppy/cat! I have a great education, an excellent career, and now I just need my partner in crime. I'd prefer a guy who is tall, works out regularly, and has a house and a car. You have to make me laugh! I like romantic comedies, red wine, and Grey's Anatomy. You must be willing to take salsa lessons and be romantic too. I'd like to be married and start a family within two years. Can't wait to hear from you! My favorite books are 50 Shades of Grey and The Bible."
This is like 90% of women on internet dating sites. Lawd help me! haha
TVRodriguez
9-24-15, 9:55pm
She is super Christian and therefore does not believe in FWB.
I am not much of a FWB type guy anyway... though it sounds fun on paper. I really try to do right by any woman I date.
On Match.com I noticed the "Match Clones." There was this huge class of women on there who essentially had the same profile!
"I love to travel. I am a big fan of (insert popular sports team in my area here). My family and friends mean the world to me. I have an amazing puppy/cat! I have a great education, an excellent career, and now I just need my partner in crime. I'd prefer a guy who is tall, works out regularly, and has a house and a car. You have to make me laugh! I like romantic comedies, red wine, and Grey's Anatomy. You must be willing to take salsa lessons and be romantic too. I'd like to be married and start a family within two years. Can't wait to hear from you! My favorite books are 50 Shades of Grey and The Bible."
This is like 90% of women on internet dating sites. Lawd help me! haha
Hahaha hahaha hahaha! Fifty Shades of Grey and the Bible! Oh hahaha! That's great. The whole thing is great. Too funny.
catherine
9-24-15, 10:03pm
I recognize that for some people, commitment without marriage is what they value. That's fine. I just think that in the vast majority of cases where they bring children into the world, kids are best served by two committed parents with legal protections.
+1 Maybe that sounds old-fashioned to many people, but as a mother of 4, I can say that in MOST cases, having 2 parents is better than 1. Having kids isn't like buying a car--you get it and then just spin it through the car wash and get standard maintenance on it and it's good to go. It's messy, extremely time-consuming and resource-depleting and emotionally draining. Having someone to share it all with serves both the parent and the child well.
And, sharing the joys is wonderful also. Who else can you gush and gush about your kids with, without others thinking you are a total boor, if not your partner?
I know people who have chosen to have kids and gone the single route by recruiting a sperm-donor, and I respect their desire for motherhood, and I'm sure they're giving it 100%. But on those days when you only have 50% in you, it's nice, for you AND the kids, to have back-up.
freshstart
9-24-15, 10:04pm
OMG, it's even worse now.
I can't remember when I did it, '04, I think. The book du jour was oh, that awful book, Da Vinci Code. Eventually, I stopped reading after Da Vinci Code was mentioned. One guy tried to convince me how much he loved the Kike Runner, he must've said "Kike" 5 times, I was dying. Thinking this guy is probably saying this all over the internet, I said, "do you mean Kite Runner? That was a great book." He says NO and insists it's Kike Runner, you know, slang for Jews? I am familiar. Keep up the good work, you should look for women whose lives are changed by the Secret. You'll get along great! 2004, openly uses words like Kike? Vomit.
there have to be better alternatives these days? Maybe one for people choosing a simple life....kind of like the people here. We make a dating site for the alternative crowd, whatever that may be, multiple "groups", like Vegans and Tiny Housers, Dumpster Divers, 100 items or less, etc., and we sit back and rake in the cash. Sounds, well, simple!
alright, the pope is exploding all over my tv, I have to denounce all of this shit! But it could work....
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv48/c320162/Smileys/Red_Flag_Waving_by_DanielaLaverne.gifOh DING DING DING DING DING. DING? She's "super Christian" and you're basically atheist / agnostic? To me, "super Christian" implies that she wants to pursue a spiritual path that you think is at best unimportant and at worst (worst for the relationship, I mean) a load of nonsense. And she feels the same way about your passion for minimalism and your financial conservativism. Exactly how is that supposed to work?
50 Shades of Grey would seem to be a deal killer.
ApatheticNoMore
9-25-15, 2:50am
But if I did know I wanted a baby, I'd plan carefully for one and consider artificial insemination by someone known to me, if marriage didn't come easily or naturally.
It seems to me distasteful to glom on to the nearest man in some panic-stricken race against the clock.
well it does seem that if what is being really sought is a sperm donor anyway, it is better to seek it honestly. Something to be said for honesty. You would think all the must have a baby YESTERDAY (not eventually) would kind of interfere with the actual development of a relationship for a relationships sake and it's natural course.
Do the women really want kids or are just afraid they will miss an important life experience if they don't have them (quite true of course, but then noone experiences everything). Do they even spend time with or like kids? Are kids the only path they see to a meaningful life? Understandable because life in this society does tend toward meaninglessness. Ah well I don't know.
Williamsmith
9-25-15, 5:30am
Almost any relationship can be made to work. This one seems to have more built in problems than an AMC Gremlin. So she's a "Super Christian"........Has it ever crossed your mind that she has posted a thread on a Christian website that reads...."How to Convince my boyfriend he needs to become a Christian, live in the Suburbs and father my three children."
Who is trying to change who?
Chicken lady
9-25-15, 6:23am
Ultralight, you're starting to remind me of a boy who was pursuing my daughter. They met at an activity she hadn't tried before and didn't enjoy. He was very nice to her. Because he was so nice, she said he could call her. He started showing up at activities she liked to see her, even though he clearly had no interest in them, (which we thought was sweet at first)
and then he started pressuring her to return to the original activity and go with him to see other things in which she knew she had no interest. All the while being so NICE it was hard for her to say no. When he finally told him it wan't going to work out (after he had spoiled one of her favorite fair days by following her around like a puppy hoping there would be a reward any minute for all these silly ticks it was having to do) all he could say was " but you're so pretty."
My daughter is strong and not lonely or broken, and her response was "really? That's all you've got for me? We should date because you think I'm pretty?"
If you want to do right by this woman, you should probably end it. If she is "very Christian and wouldn't go for friends with benefits". Either she believes in her heart that you are going to marry her, or you guys are already friends (who don't have a lot in common) and there will never be any benefits.
What I don't here you saying are things like "I love her.". "She makes me happy" " I am lonely/sad/miserable when we have to be apart for a long time", "she makes my life better.". "she makes ME a better person.", "she encourages and supports me in my goals and dreams.". "she shares my goal/dream/desire/interest..."
My best friend in college was a guy. We had a lot in common, we had a great time together, we were good for each other, i loved him and still do, but was not "in love" with him. we had very different life goals and he was not what I was looking for in a life partner and father of my children. He was also very attractive. I could totally have seen it going in a "friends with benefits" direction - especially on a couple of nights when he had a really bad break up and called me and I had to go over and monitor his drinking and make sure he didn't drunk dial the girl. If it would have made him feel better... But he was the kind of guy who doesn't have sex with a woman he doesn't intend to marry. So that was a hard line we never got close to. I rubbed his shoulders sometimes when they were sore from a workout, hugged him in public now and then, and that was it.
he wouldn't have been "doing right" by me by calling himself my boyfriend and keeping me from finding dh any more than he would have been "doing wrong" by me by accepting freely offered comfort if that had been his thing.
How would you feel if some other man started taking your girlfriend on the kind of dates she wants? are there things in your relationship that could continue? Are you friends with women? I ask that last because my mother never understood my best friend. She had literally never been just friends with a man. There were men she liked fine, but she only saw them socially in couple settings with my dad. For her as a single woman it had always been potential boyfriend, current boyfriend, or no interest. So I wonder if that is in your frame of reference.
freshstart
9-25-15, 7:04am
Really, what is the big deal about tall? Women friends would set their Match search to a certain height. I'd go out with Peter Dinklage, I don't get it. My cousin, who has never been lucky in her search, made a profile and asked me to help. "Work is very important to me, you must have a job and a car. I love dogs. No baby mama drama!" Whole profile. I tired to suss out some interests, hobbies, books, music, movies, anything to get more sentences. Finally she said, "I like Brad Paisley." Added that and called it a day. Encouraged her to take down the tank top boob shots and just put up a picture that captures her in a funny moment and her happiness lights up her face. Boob shots stayed. The worst part was I could not get her to see that having "graduated" from HS is not what they mean about having a "graduate" degree. That stayed, so said she was a nursing assistant (nothing wrong with this) with a graduate degree (nothing wrong with this either because she just didn't understand, she wasn't trying to deceive).
I really try to do right by any woman I date.
I think we all see that you are really trying, doing and saying the "right" things as you perceive them. So it would seem she does not appreciate this, but it sounds like she does. Then is it the "things" you both value are not "right" for each other? Why is a super Christian woman ok with a LTR with an atheist and vice versa? Isn't this a huge deal to a super Christian person? We talked about settling and sometimes that's good enough, perhaps that is what is happening here.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 9:02am
First thing... there is a lot to respond to on this thread, so forgive my serial posting, please. I will try to keep it concise. :)
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv48/c320162/Smileys/Red_Flag_Waving_by_DanielaLaverne.gifOh DING DING DING DING DING. DING? She's "super Christian" and you're basically atheist / agnostic? To me, "super Christian" implies that she wants to pursue a spiritual path that you think is at best unimportant and at worst (worst for the relationship, I mean) a load of nonsense. And she feels the same way about your passion for minimalism and your financial conservativism. Exactly how is that supposed to work?
Here is the interesting thing, of the two of us, you'd probably call me the more "spiritual" one (though I dislike that term as I do not believe in spirits or anything for which there is no evidence). But I am the philosophical one, the seeker. I go on meditation binges and meditate for up to an hour at a time. My minimalism is outward symbol of my inner work -- and my inner world -- which focuses on nature, friendships, relationships, and critical examination of our existence. I am fascinated by the way ancient religious folks lived their lives -- from shaman to St. Francis, as well as people like Daniel Suelo in our current age. With that said, I am technically and "Anti-theist," someone who thinks that eventually humankind needs to dissolve all religions for our mutual betterment. And sooner is better!
For my gf, she is a fairly standard Christian. She does not go to church but still "believes" and prays. She has religious artifacts (like pics of Jesus) all around her house. She equates religiousness with morality.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 9:07am
Almost any relationship can be made to work. This one seems to have more built in problems than an AMC Gremlin. So she's a "Super Christian"........Has it ever crossed your mind that she has posted a thread on a Christian website that reads...."How to Convince my boyfriend he needs to become a Christian, live in the Suburbs and father my three children."
Who is trying to change who?
Thank you for acknowledging the idea that maybe she is also trying to change me. I often feel like she would just really like me to quit with the nonsense -- my simple living, my philosophical seeking, my pursuit of that ever nebulous "truth" and just live a normative, quasi-middle class life of work, TV, passive amusements, and family life.
She has not ever tried to convert me though. I am involved very deeply in the atheist community. It is the center of my social life. I host atheist canoe trips and attend a wide variety of atheist-related events. It is clear to her that I am an ardent atheist.
rodeosweetheart
9-25-15, 9:14am
Thank you for acknowledging the idea that maybe she is also trying to change me. I often feel like she would just really like me to quit with the nonsense -- my simple living, my philosophical seeking, my pursuit of that ever nebulous "truth" and just live a normative, quasi-middle class life of work, TV, passive amusements, and family life.
She has not ever tried to convert me though. I am involved very deeply in the atheist community. It is the center of my social life. I host atheist canoe trips and attend a wide variety of atheist-related events. It is clear to her that I am an ardent atheist.
The relationship seems doomed. You don't seem to like anything much about her except the way she looks. ARen't there any hot atheistic girls out there to fall in love with?
I'd show her this thread and let her go.
freshstart
9-25-15, 9:38am
you can't say you didn't try, you processed this every which way but Sunday
Ultralight
9-25-15, 9:50am
Ultralight, you're starting to remind me of a boy who was pursuing my daughter. They met at an activity she hadn't tried before and didn't enjoy. He was very nice to her. Because he was so nice, she said he could call her. He started showing up at activities she liked to see her, even though he clearly had no interest in them, (which we thought was sweet at first)
and then he started pressuring her to return to the original activity and go with him to see other things in which she knew she had no interest. All the while being so NICE it was hard for her to say no. When he finally told him it wan't going to work out (after he had spoiled one of her favorite fair days by following her around like a puppy hoping there would be a reward any minute for all these silly ticks it was having to do) all he could say was " but you're so pretty."
My daughter is strong and not lonely or broken, and her response was "really? That's all you've got for me? We should date because you think I'm pretty?"
If you want to do right by this woman, you should probably end it. If she is "very Christian and wouldn't go for friends with benefits". Either she believes in her heart that you are going to marry her, or you guys are already friends (who don't have a lot in common) and there will never be any benefits.
What I don't here you saying are things like "I love her.". "She makes me happy" " I am lonely/sad/miserable when we have to be apart for a long time", "she makes my life better.". "she makes ME a better person.", "she encourages and supports me in my goals and dreams.". "she shares my goal/dream/desire/interest..."
My best friend in college was a guy. We had a lot in common, we had a great time together, we were good for each other, i loved him and still do, but was not "in love" with him. we had very different life goals and he was not what I was looking for in a life partner and father of my children. He was also very attractive. I could totally have seen it going in a "friends with benefits" direction - especially on a couple of nights when he had a really bad break up and called me and I had to go over and monitor his drinking and make sure he didn't drunk dial the girl. If it would have made him feel better... But he was the kind of guy who doesn't have sex with a woman he doesn't intend to marry. So that was a hard line we never got close to. I rubbed his shoulders sometimes when they were sore from a workout, hugged him in public now and then, and that was it.
he wouldn't have been "doing right" by me by calling himself my boyfriend and keeping me from finding dh any more than he would have been "doing wrong" by me by accepting freely offered comfort if that had been his thing.
How would you feel if some other man started taking your girlfriend on the kind of dates she wants? are there things in your relationship that could continue? Are you friends with women? I ask that last because my mother never understood my best friend. She had literally never been just friends with a man. There were men she liked fine, but she only saw them socially in couple settings with my dad. For her as a single woman it had always been potential boyfriend, current boyfriend, or no interest. So I wonder if that is in your frame of reference.
Chicken Lady: Thank you for the insightful explanations and questions.
I do want to clarify. I do not put pressure on my gf to do anything that I like to do. I have made it clear to her that if I invite her to do something and she'd rather not, then she is free to decline. No harm; no foul, She has done so -- declining to go canoeing for instance and other such things. I told her early on I'd prefer not to be one of those couples where each person takes turns doing things they don't like in order to do things the other person does like all the time.
Also: I have joked (to myself) that if she found a "gay bff" then she could go on "dates" with him too! Win, win, win! lol
And, the vast majority of my friends are women. This has made my gf suspicious somewhat often. But she has mellowed out about it as she has met my friends here and there.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 9:53am
The relationship seems doomed. You don't seem to like anything much about her except the way she looks. ARen't there any hot atheistic girls out there to fall in love with?
I'd show her this thread and let her go.
I do like that she is kind and compassionate. Those are a big deal to me! Compassion is so incredibly important to me for any kind of relationship.
And no, atheist women are rare. Most atheist guys date religious or "spiritual" women, or they remain single. Though I do know of a handful of atheist women who have multiple boyfriends who all know about each other. It is a unique way that they are dealing with the astoundingly off-kilter ratio of women to men in the atheist community.
iris lilies
9-25-15, 10:17am
Almost any relationship can be made to work. This one seems to have more built in problems than an AMC Gremlin. So she's a "Super Christian"........Has it ever crossed your mind that she has posted a thread on a Christian website that reads...."How to Convince my boyfriend he needs to become a Christian, live in the Suburbs and father my three children."
Who is trying to change who?
Are you KIDDING!!!??? AMC Gremlins were little workhorses and ran like tops. Geesh.
I had one, my mom had one, they ran for 20years.
Now back to,p our topic,at hand,problems in love...
Are you KIDDING!!!??? AMC Gremlins were little workhorses and ran like tops. Geesh.
I had one, my mom had one, they ran for 20years.
Now back to,p our topic,at hand,problems in love...
And you mock my PT Cruiser? Haha. Advantage Jane.
Dammit--I'm going to find a ROFL smiley.
I don't know about atheist women; it doesn't sound like you need an atheist--a lot of them are as annoying as their opposite number--but the country is full of irreligious types. Certainly that's true around here. My circle is admittedly small, but I don't have any friends or relatives who are believers or churchgoers. Unless you want to count my second cousin, who graduated from a small Christian college and never lets you forget it. Her grandmother is undoubtedly spinning in her grave; makes me laugh every time I think of it.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 11:17am
Really, what is the big deal about tall? Women friends would set their Match search to a certain height. I'd go out with Peter Dinklage, I don't get it.
I am not sure. I am average height, so I don't put much thought into it. But I know I was turned away or ignored many times for not meeting the "at least 6 feet" minimum that many women have. But I have asked women about the height issue and they say these things:
1. "I don't want to lean down to kiss him."
2. "I want to feel protected."
3. "I want to feel petite next to him, or at least smaller."
4. "I don't want to look lopsided standing next to him."
5. "Height...big feet...things like that are a sign of a ___ ____!"
Personally, I have dated women of all varieties. I like women across the entire range from Kelly Ripa (petite, cute, spunky) to Jill Scott (so beautiful!).
I have dated women who were taller and more muscular than me (this was when I was in shape in college too! haha). I just don't see height as something of importance in a partner.
I think we all see that you are really trying, doing and saying the "right" things as you perceive them. So it would seem she does not appreciate this, but it sounds like she does. Then is it the "things" you both value are not "right" for each other? Why is a super Christian woman ok with a LTR with an atheist and vice versa? Isn't this a huge deal to a super Christian person? We talked about settling and sometimes that's good enough, perhaps that is what is happening here.
She is probably okay with me not being a Christian because I lead a fairly "Christ-like" life, or what-have-you. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. I am compassionate to people, community-minded, and kind to animals. I am not materialistic; I strive to be a person of integrity. Etc.
My mother, who is Catholic, rationalizes my atheism like this: "It does not matter than you don't believe in god. What matters is that god believes in you!"
I think that is nonsense, but it gets her through the night. My Christian friends and my Christian gf probably have a similar rationalization.
As an atheist man, I have to accept that the numbers are not in my favor. Most atheists are men. Period. End of story.
That is the demographic reality I am dealing with.
iris lilies
9-25-15, 11:30am
I don't know about atheist women; it doesn't sound like you need an atheist--a lot of them are as annoying as their opposite number--but the country is full of irreligious types. Certainly that's true around here. My circle is admittedly small, but I don't have any friends or relatives who are believers or churchgoers. Unless you want to count my second cousin, who graduated from a small Christian college and never lets you forget it. Her grandmother is undoubtedly spinning in her grave; makes me laugh every time I think of it.
Ok, Ok, you get a point or two for the car thing, but I am not convinced the Cruiser will go for 20 years. They don't build them now like they used to. besides, my Gremlin would leave you behind in a race, it had power and light body.
As for atheist group, hmmm. Now, in my adult life, I would stay far away from them because I would think they would be strident in their expression of non-belief, had enough of that with the UUS. Any group centered around a faith base is not my cup of tea.
But in my youth, I might have checked out your group as a non-believer. Atheist fishing expeditions are pretty funny.
ApatheticNoMore
9-25-15, 11:47am
I don't know about atheist women; it doesn't sound like you need an atheist--a lot of them are as annoying as their opposite number--but the country is full of irreligious types. Certainly that's true around here. My circle is admittedly small, but I don't have any friends or relatives who are believers or churchgoers. Unless you want to count my second cousin, who graduated from a small Christian college and never lets you forget it.
women aren't proselytizers - generally, some are :). Whereas men are more often. But I've known people who have relocated across the country to find someone. Not just atheists although one woman I am thinking of was (and I have to say overtly religious people seem very much the exception here except for the new age people of course), but dating mid-life, it's really much more favorable to do that in a large urban area where it's considering no big deal your not settled down etc. Sure the 20 somethings are hotter, so it may be far from ideal, but fairly normal.
I don't hassle UltralightAngler, if they are happier together than apart, it's their own business.
Ok, Ok, you get a point or two for the car thing, but I am not convinced the Cruiser will go for 20 years. They don't build them now like they used to. besides, my Gremlin would leave you behind in a race, it had power and light body....
That's OK; I probably won't go for 20 years either. rrrrr
freshstart
9-25-15, 12:53pm
I am not sure. I am average height, so I don't put much thought into it. But I know I was turned away or ignored many times for not meeting the "at least 6 feet" minimum that many women have. But I have asked women about the height issue and they say these things:
1. "I don't want to lean down to kiss him."
2. "I want to feel protected."
3. "I want to feel petite next to him, or at least smaller."
4. "I don't want to look lopsided standing next to him."
5. "Height...big feet...things like that are a sign of a ___ ____!"
my GF calls it Angry Short Man Syndrome, like Jeremy Piven on Entourage
Ultralight fisherman - you would make a good Quaker or Amishman :)
freshstart
9-25-15, 1:17pm
Did anyone see Shunned on Netflix? I don't think I'd want to be a female Amish person.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 1:19pm
I don't know about atheist women; it doesn't sound like you need an atheist--a lot of them are as annoying as their opposite number--but the country is full of irreligious types. Certainly that's true around here. My circle is admittedly small, but I don't have any friends or relatives who are believers or churchgoers. Unless you want to count my second cousin, who graduated from a small Christian college and never lets you forget it. Her grandmother is undoubtedly spinning in her grave; makes me laugh every time I think of it.
Non-believers and "spiritual" people comprise around 15% of the population. So "full" is not actually the case. This is especially true since agnostics and atheists generally do not consider themselves spiritual (because they do not believe in spirits, for one thing).
Ultralight
9-25-15, 1:21pm
my GF calls it Angry Short Man Syndrome, like Jeremy Piven on Entourage
I am 5'9" and I don't feel angry...
Ultralight
9-25-15, 1:22pm
Thanks... I am an Amish sympathizer, mostly because I am a Luddite too. ;)
But I am usually okay with Quaker types and Buddhists.
Here's Gallup's ranking of the least religious states: (from OregonLive)
State....................................% Very religious
1. Vermont.......................19%
2. New Hampshire...........23%
3. Maine...........................24%
4. Massachusetts.............27%
5. Rhode Island................29%
5. Oregon.........................29%
7. Nevada.........................31%
7. Hawaii...........................31%
7. Alaska...........................31%
7. Connecticut...................31%
7. Washington...................31%
From Wikipedia:
A 2008*Gallup*poll comparing belief in God among U.S. regions found that only 59% of residents in the Western United States believe in a god, compared to 80% in the*East, 83% in the*Midwest, and 86% in the*South.[7]
Plenty of women to choose from, at least in the West.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 1:34pm
Here's Gallup's ranking of the least religious states: (from OregonLive)
State....................................% Very religious
1. Vermont.......................19%
2. New Hampshire...........23%
3. Maine...........................24%
4. Massachusetts.............27%
5. Rhode Island................29%
5. Oregon.........................29%
7. Nevada.........................31%
7. Hawaii...........................31%
7. Alaska...........................31%
7. Connecticut...................31%
7. Washington...................31%
From Wikipedia:
A 2008*Gallup*poll comparing belief in God among U.S. regions found that only 59% of residents in the Western United States believe in a god, compared to 80% in the*East, 83% in the*Midwest, and 86% in the*South.[7]
Plenty of women to choose from, at least in the West.
Thanks for the list!
My grandmother was a very devout Catholic. My grandfather was irreligious. They produced five children and a happy married life together. She went off to church every Sunday; he went to the golf course. "Mixed marriages" can work out.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 1:42pm
My grandmother was a very devout Catholic. My grandfather was irreligious. They produced five children and a happy married life together. She went off to church every Sunday; he went to the golf course. "Mixed marriages" can work out.
Most "mixed" marriages are Catholic woman/Atheist man, at least in my informal surveying.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 1:43pm
Most "mixed" marriages are Catholic woman/Atheist man, at least in my informal surveying.
Something else of note is that my relationship with my gf is mixed both "religiously" and racially.
I was looking at it from a more general perspective, really. I am - or at least I was - passionate about simple living and streamlining of my life and my possessions. Passionate. You could almost say it was a religion for me. I wound up with someone who claimed they "got it", but in retrospect they didn't agree that OUR life, together as a couple, would really reflect this. Frugal was for when you really didn't want the thing anyway. Minimal only applied to My stuff, all the free space in our house has gradually been taken over by junk no one really wants. "Green" - e.g. recycling, using cloth napkins - is not a philosophy, it's something he only does when I'm watching. It became obvious that "simple" means it's fine that I sit in a chair and meditate - once all the chaotic mess I didn't create has been dealt with. Discussing any goals and challenges in this arena was pointless because there was no underlying agreement that this was the direction we wanted to move in. Basically "all that" - my life's work - was supposed to be my downtime hobby in his opinion.
The point is, while I agree with WilliamSmith that any relationship can be made to work, making it work with someone who will be naturally at odds with your life philosophy ten times a day ... sucks. I'm making it work, nothing is so terrible that it's a deal breaker, but if I'd been like Iris Lilies and at some earlier point opened my eyes, I probably would have said, "this is not enough". Now I'm in and I love him too much to leave, but it's basically meant "compromising" my underlying hopes for my life. I've spent a decade trying to figure out how to compromise emulating Peace Pilgrim and also Donna Reed, and it can't be done.
Short n sweet: it's one thing to have separate interests, but I firmly believe sharing an underlying philosophy of what matters, how to move life in that direction, and how to work as a team toward a shared vision makes for a higher quality relationship.
And ETA: I'm not blaming my husband. We both went in with blinders on, him not understanding what I meant by "typical American mainstream living" I have no use for while standing inside that box, me standing outside the box not understanding that he didn't understand. And I know that it's equally frustrating for him to feel like half of the "normal" things he does upset me. He's honestly trying, but he's trying because it's important to ME, when what I most wish is that it were important to HIM. His choices aren't made because they are logical given an underlying viewpoint because he doesn't Have that underlying viewpoint, he just waits for me to tell him what the logical choice would be.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 2:03pm
I was looking at it from a more general perspective, really. I am - or at least I was - passionate about simple living and streamlining of my life and my possessions. Passionate. You could almost say it was a religion for me. I wound up with someone who claimed they "got it", but in retrospect they didn't agree that OUR life, together as a couple, would really reflect this. Frugal was for when you really didn't want the thing anyway. Minimal only applied to My stuff, all the free space in our house has gradually been taken over by junk no one really wants. "Green" - e.g. recycling, using cloth napkins - is not a philosophy, it's something he only does when I'm watching. It became obvious that "simple" means it's fine that I sit in a chair and meditate - once all the chaotic mess I didn't create has been dealt with. Discussing any goals and challenges in this arena was pointless because there was no underlying agreement that this was the direction we wanted to move in. Basically "all that" - my life's work - was supposed to be my downtime hobby in his opinion.
If I can be blatantly honest for a moment... This sounds so desperate and sad. :( Just heartbreaking...
Short n sweet: it's one thing to have separate interests, but I firmly believe sharing an underlying philosophy of what matters, how to move life in that direction, and how to work as a team toward a shared vision makes for a higher quality relationship.
I agree.
I'm pretty sure my grandfather was just a nonbeliever--although he died before I could meet him. When I think of atheists, I picture those tiresome crusading types who can't shut up about religion.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 2:13pm
I'm pretty sure my grandfather was just a nonbeliever--although he died before I could meet him. When I think of atheists, I picture those tiresome crusading types who can't shut up about religion.
The atheist community is not that homogenized. We have our diplomats and our firebrands; we have our quiet atheists you'd never expect (google The Clergy Project) and our loudmouths. We also have our well-spoken advocates. We even have our own celebrities! lol
For instance, my friend Jeff (probably my only guy friend) is an atheist and a leader in our community. He is in a life partnership with a woman who is a Methodist. She attends church every Sunday. She sings in the choir. She is very active in her church. But they get along because that is their only real difference. They both love gardening and bicycling, they are both liberal democrats, and they like cats and skydiving. lol
Atheists, while trending largely toward the "straight, white male" demographic veers all over the place when it comes to personalities. Introverts. Extroverts. Funny. Serious. Pranksters. Intellectuals. Bookish. Outdoorsy. Folksy, even!
Would you say: "When I think of gays, I picture the San Francisco Pride Parade and all the leather chaps and rainbow speedos."?
No, you would not say that (at least I hope you would not) because that is prejudice.
ApatheticNoMore
9-25-15, 2:22pm
I guess I just think trying to find one's soul mate is futile. Yes I may always be single for life, I'm just too weird frankly, but I will try to keep an open mind about it, though I still think if it works it's miraculous (and even finding a person one is physically OR emotionally drawn to and it's mutual isn't that common - much less finding someone one is both physically and mentally drawn to - may as well play the lottery!). So if two people are happier together than apart that's something, yes maybe especially if there is strong chemistry.
Ah, I wasn't looking for the pity vote, but thanks for your sympathy. It's frustrating but it's my nonsense to dig out from under, I'm slowly figuring out how to do that. Anything can be changed if you really want to. Donna Pilgrim, signing off. >8)
My point in sharing all that is, if you really feel passionate about something, if you want it reflected in every choice you make, if it's almost as important to you as breathing, then you need to find a partner who understands, supports and ideally shares that outlook. While anything can be changed if you really want to, it's so much smarter to do your best not to get into situations that need changing.
If neither of you is particularly passionate about your lifestyle or philosophy then this isn't as pressing, but take a look inside and make sure.
And I'm applying that advice to both of you, because it sounds like neither of you is really looking at what the other person is all about. Been there, doing that. Don't like it.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 2:30pm
I guess I just think trying to find one's soul mate is futile. Yes I may always be single for life, I'm just too weird frankly, but I will try to keep an open mind about it, though I still think if it works it's miraculous (and even finding a person one is physically OR emotionally drawn to and it's mutual isn't that common - much less finding someone one is both physically and mentally drawn to - may as well play the lottery!). So if two people are happier together than apart that's something, yes maybe especially if there is strong chemistry.
ApatheticNoMore:
I totally get this! I have had so many problems in dating and relationships because I am quirky -- very quirky!
I have this theory...
If you could take a big bag, throw the vast majority of couples into it, shake the bag up and dump it out then the couples would be in different configurations but still just as happy with their partners. Why? Because most people are pretty normative.
Now for us quirky folks it is a whole different story.
Would you say: "When I think of gays, I picture the San Francisco Pride Parade and all the leather chaps and rainbow speedos."?
No, you would not say that (at least I hope you would not) because that is prejudice.
I guess I won't post any photos/accounts of the fun street fair I'll be at in SF this weekend :-)
Ultralight
9-25-15, 2:44pm
I guess I won't post any photos/accounts of the fun street fair I'll be at in SF this weekend :-)
I think Pride parades are great fun!
The atheist community is not that homogenized. We have our diplomats and our firebrands; we have our quiet atheists you'd never expect (google The Clergy Project) and our loudmouths. We also have our well-spoken advocates. We even have our own celebrities! lol
When I think of an atheist, I simply think of someone who doesn't believe. If they then form communities with diplomats and advocates, haven't they then taken it to the point of being a belief, perhaps it's own religion.
I think Pride parades are great fun!
While parades are cool, this is a bit different :-)
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:04pm
When I think of an atheist, I simply think of someone who doesn't believe. If they then form communities with diplomats and advocates, haven't they then taken it to the point of being a belief, perhaps it's own religion.
No, that is not how religion works. That is not how belief and disbelief work. Like any group of people atheists have a "dominant" culture, but it varies to some degree, again, like any group of people.
Atheists also band together to protect themselves from religious people who want to prevent them from being fully enfranchised in the greater society.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:06pm
When I think of an atheist, I simply think of someone who doesn't believe. If they then form communities with diplomats and advocates, haven't they then taken it to the point of being a belief, perhaps it's own religion.
Alan: This might be worth a read: http://atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism?
When I think of an atheist, I simply think of someone who doesn't believe. If they then form communities with diplomats and advocates, haven't they then taken it to the point of being a belief, perhaps it's own religion.
Exactly. Atheists and religious adherents who just go about their business following their disparate faiths (and I believe atheism is a faith of sorts) to the best of their ability are one thing. People who aggressively proselytize are another thing entirely.
And when I think of gay people, I think of friends and relatives, and Pride parades only when my friends and relatives report back.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:09pm
Exactly. Atheists and religious adherents who just go about their business following their disparate faiths (and I believe atheism is a faith of sorts) to the best of their ability are one thing. People who aggressively proselytize are another thing entirely.
And when I think of gay people, I think of friends and relatives, and Pride parades only when my friends and relatives report back.
When I think of atheists I think of friends and relatives too!
Atheism is not a faith. Jane: Read this... if you dare... http://atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism?
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:12pm
If atheism is a religion then does that then mean that Christianity is an atheism?
iris lilies
9-25-15, 3:15pm
Most "mixed" marriages are Catholic woman/Atheist man, at least in my informal surveying.
Catholic man, aetheist woman in my household.
Atheism is not a faith.
Then why must it have diplomats and advocates?
I'm not sure if it matters whether you define it as "a faith". If it's a ruling and important principle in your life - which is why there are diplomats and advocates; there are people for whom atheist beliefs are life altering - then it needs respect when choosing a partner.
E.g., I'm agnostic. The whole question isn't that pressing for me. But if I had to say grace every meal and put pictures of Jesus on the cross up in the living room to satisfy my partner's path and process, that could get really old. Or, flip, if I didn't attend church but I really wanted a picture of Jesus on the cross in the living room, right front and center, and my partner insisted it needed to go in the storage closet. These are practical examples but they extend to the realm of emotional satisfaction as well.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:18pm
Then why must it have diplomats and advocates?
One example: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-10/religion-atheism/51777612/1
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:18pm
Catholic man, aetheist woman in my household.
Whoa!
One example: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-10/religion-atheism/51777612/1
That didn't answer my question, so let's personalize it a bit. When you proclaim yourself an atheist, over and over again, are you trying to advocate and advance a personal belief set? If so, how do you differ from an evangelical?
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:44pm
That didn't answer my question, so let's personalize it a bit. When you proclaim yourself an atheist, over and over again, are you trying to advocate and advance a personal belief set? If so, how do you differ from an evangelical?
I am trying to advocate and advance a personal disbelief set.
Also: Evangelical started out as a form of Christianity (and largely still is). Atheism did not start out as a form of Christianity.
What I am really interested in advancing and advocating is full enfranchisement in all societies of the world for Atheists.
I am trying to advocate and advance a personal disbelief set.
.........
What I am really interested in advancing and advocating is full enfranchisement in all societies of the world for Atheists.
So there is no difference then.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:48pm
So there is no difference then.
Do evangelical Christians want full enfranchisement or do they want everyone to be evangelical Christians?
That didn't answer my question, so let's personalize it a bit. When you proclaim yourself an atheist, over and over again, are you trying to advocate and advance a personal belief set?
My wife is bigtime into music. She advocates for music in the schools. Raises money for that purpose. Lobbies our state legislators to support music in the school system. Provides music lessons to kids. Organizes concerts for children and adults to perform in.
I do the same for mathematics and science education.
So yes, we *believe* music is important, and math and science.
But it's not a religion. While it's a "belief system", it's clearly different than a religious belief system. (Well, maybe not in the case of my wife and her peculiar devotion to certain flute pieces...).
"Belief" has several different definitions, and collapsing them to a single concept, while handy in the case of arguing religion vs. atheism, or faith vs. science, is a mistake, or a clever sophistry:
Belief:
1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
Do evangelical Christians want full enfranchisement or do they want everyone to be evangelical Christians?It doesn't matter to me what different groups proselytize about. I'd just rather they not do so on my front step.
But seriously, I'm more interested in the group dynamic. I'm a secular humanist/atheist, although I don't feel as if I'm part of a group. It seems to me that those who are part of a group are often indistinguishable from every other fraternal organization/religious denomination/special interest group/cult. It's just a matter of focus.
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:56pm
"Belief" has several different definitions, and collapsing them to a single concept, while handy in the case of arguing religion vs. atheism, or faith vs. science, is a mistake, or a clever sophistry
This is bad ass!
Ultralight
9-25-15, 3:57pm
It doesn't matter to me what different groups proselytize about. I'd just rather they not do so on my front step.
But seriously, I'm more interested in the group dynamic. I'm a secular humanist/atheist, although I don't feel as if I'm part of a group. It seems to me that those who are part of a group are indistinguishable from every other fraternal organization/religious denomination/special interest group/cult. It's just a matter of focus.
Yankees fans.
I keep dragging this back to the OP, but I think Bae has it right even for those purposes. Whether it's a "belief" or a "religion", would Mrs. Bae have been happy if it turned out Bae not only didn't care about music, but much preferred that it not be played in the house? Would Bae have felt comfortable with his choice of partner if Mrs. Bae had turned to him and said "I don't get this math crap, this is not what partnership is about, I think it would be nice if you skipped the board meeting so we can spend some time together watching The Bachelor." Once, it's funny and maybe acceptable. As a lifestyle? No.
Choose Wisely, Grasshopper!
"Belief" has several different definitions, and collapsing them to a single concept, while handy in the case of arguing religion vs. atheism, or faith vs. science, is a mistake, or a clever sophistry:
Music and mathematics were the bread and butter of early sophists. You could maybe teach me a thing or two?
Music and mathematics were the bread and butter of early sophists. You could maybe teach me a thing or two?
είναι όλα ελληνικά για μένα
είναι όλα ελληνικά για μέναMe too!
Sign of the times: it was harder for me to get my mouse to work copying and pasting than it was to translate that.
rosarugosa
9-25-15, 8:44pm
I'm an "atheist", or "secular humanist," or occasionally a "Pastafarian" just for laughs. At this stage of my life, I try to avoid theological debates with religious folks, although I once welcomed the heat of battle. I've come to the conclusion that we're not going to change each other's minds, so lets not annoy each other needlessly and let's talk about something else instead where we have common ground. I have a first cousin who is a religious zealot, but she loves animals, nature, gardening, and books, so there's plenty of territory where we can play nice together.
That said, I would never have hooked up with someone as a lifetime partner who did not hold a similar philosophy. Irrationality disturbs me, and I would not willingly embrace it as a steady diet.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 11:19am
Date night this past Saturday night: $93.
iris lilies
10-5-15, 11:28am
Date night this past Saturday night: $93.
So that I'm clear, do you two also have "get out of the house" dates that are free?
I'm not clear here if you are sitting around in her house, going out on a date only 2X monthly. That would get old for me. For me, a "date" could very well mean "going out and doing something" that would cost very little, if anything. Going to free museums, parks, city events would qualify.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 11:34am
So that I'm clear, do you two also have "get out of the house" dates that are free?
I'm not clear here if you are sitting around in her house, going out on a date only 2X monthly. That would get old for me. For me, a "date" could very well mean "going out and doing something" that would cost very little, if anything. Going to free museums, parks, city events would qualify.
I am not a sit-around-the-house type of guy. We go on walks at the park, ride bikes, she has gone fishing a few times with me, we also make lunches and dinners at home too, sometimes we'll watch a documentary at her place or mine, I sometimes help with her garden. We do a variety of things, but those don't really count as dates for her. I can squeeze free museums and city events in there, and that could shave $40 off of each date night. But those only go so far... for one thing there is only a limited number of those things. The other issue is that if I am taking her to mostly free stuff she might consider me to be "cheap."
But as long as I keep cycling to the grocery, bank, pharmacy, etc. and I cut back my fishing by about a third I can funnel those savings over to pay for date nights. This is my plan.
iris lilies
10-5-15, 11:40am
I am not a sit-around-the-house type of guy. We go on walks at the park, ride bikes, she has gone fishing a few times with me, we also make lunches and dinners at home too, sometimes we'll watch a documentary at her place or mine, I sometimes help with her garden. We do a variety of things, but those don't really count as dates for her. I can squeeze free museums and city events in there, and that could shave $40 off of each date night. But those only go so far... for one thing there is only a limited number of those things. The other issue is that if I am taking her to mostly free stuff she might consider me to be "cheap."
But as long as I keep cycling all to the grocery, bank, pharmacy, etc. and I cut back my fishing by about a third I can funnel those savings over to pay for date nights. This is my plan.
Ok, then, that's nice that you are making financial sacrifices for her, and have a plan to do so.
freshstart
10-5-15, 11:44am
I just thought of something. Have you tried restaurant.com? I haven't used it on a while. Look to see restaurants in your area. If there are ones you like, you buy a certificate. It used to be so cheap that the two of us paid less to eat out than stay home and cook. Sign up and give it a few days, they have promotions all the time. YMMV since I forgot about it and have not checked it out recently
Ultralight
10-5-15, 11:48am
I just thought of something. Have you tried restaurant.com? I haven't used it on a while. Look to see restaurants in your area. If there are ones you like, you buy a certificate. It used to be so cheap that the two of us paid less to eat out than stay home and cook. Sign up and give it a few days, they have promotions all the time. YMMV since I forgot about it and have not checked it out recently
I'll give it a look! Thanks.
Ok, then, that's nice that you are making financial sacrifices for her, and have a plan to do so.
And obsessing about it. This is bound to get old for both of them.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 12:18pm
And obsessing about it. This is bound to get old for both of them.
No, I keep it to myself.
ApatheticNoMore
10-5-15, 12:27pm
Whatever works in their relationship I guess.
But it has struck me how odd the guy paying is when your just getting to know someone, I feel like paying creates debt as in you've now created an obligation to this person (in the anthropological sense I guess). Not really in a crude sense "ok you've bought me a latte, I guess I'll have to show you my bedroom ...". But in the sense of guaranteeing a relationship actually comes of it, but I can do no such thing when I'm just getting to know someone, but it does suck to decide after several dates "I don't think we're a match" and the guy has paid $100 or more by then. No not splitting the bill makes me very uncomfortable. Of course splitting it is odd, if your not sure it's going to be split and your in a situation where they guy has positioned himself in line in such a way that the body language and everything else is such that it says "I'm paying" and he doesn't and your just there in the odd quiet "uh, uh ... " blank stare at the cashier.
Whatever works in their relationship I guess.
But it has struck me how odd the guy paying is when your just getting to know someone, I feel like paying creates debt as in you've now created an obligation to this person (in the anthropological sense I guess). Not really in a crude sense "ok you've bought me a latte, I guess I'll have to show you my bedroom ...". But in the sense of guaranteeing a relationship actually comes of it, but I can do no such thing when I'm just getting to know someone, but it does suck to decide after several dates "I don't think we're a match" and the guy has paid $100 or more by then. No not splitting the bill makes me very uncomfortable. Of course splitting it is odd, if your not sure it's going to be split and your in a situation where they guy has positioned himself in line in such a way that the body language and everything else is such that it says "I'm paying" and he doesn't and your just there in the odd quiet "uh, uh ... " blank stare at the cashier.
Another reason I'm happy I started my relationship long distance. We were forced to deal with this head on and find out how we'd pay for shared expenses before we even met in person, and were able to make sure right away we were similar in our preferences in this area. Me: "So, our first date is going to be almost $800. I'm only comfortable with splitting that 50/50. How do you feel about that?" He was fine with that, and paid me back his portion of my flight to the cent, rounding up (even though I told him I could care less about an exact 50/50 split, especially as he paid for more things while I was visiting) very quickly. Money-test complete.
Note, I would have been uncomfortable with paying any more or less than 50%, in this situation (very early in the relationship). I don't believe in the man paying more just because he's the man, and am generally quite opposed to that practice as I believe it sets a bad and uneven precedent for the relationship, before it even gets going.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 1:22pm
I don't believe in the man paying more just because he's the man, and am generally quite opposed to that practice as I believe it sets a bad and uneven precedent for the relationship, before it even gets going.
Why? As woman, why?
Why? As woman, why?
Probably because Kestra isn't burdened by outmoded gender roles.
Why? As woman, why?
I should reverse the question on you: Why should a man pay more?
But I'll explain a little more. You've already seen a portion of my long feminism rant, but the others haven't. So I'll try to keep this briefer and on topic. Generally I feel a relationship should be as balanced as possible. Women have jobs and money too. The days of women not working are long gone. Women often make more money than men. Just financially/fairness speaking I think expenses should generally be shared proportional to income. However in a new relationship 50/50 makes the most sense. Each person should be trying to show the other that they are an adult and active partner in the relationship. They should both be able to take care of the other, should the need arise. I'm not interested in men who think that their money is more valuable than mine, or that it is more important that they have a job, than it is that I have a job. Also I don't want any sense of obligation: if he pays for something, do I owe him anything? Do I need to go on a second date that I pay for, even if I don't want to? I think the first date(s) should directly reflect the type of long-term relationship you are interested in. Otherwise, how are you able to judge compatibility? And you are setting a false precedent. I don't think either party should be suddenly changing the rules. Be clear from the start and you won't have to waste time with the wrong types of people.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 1:40pm
I should reverse the question on you: Why should a man pay more?
I actually don't think that the man should pay more. But that change in norms could benefit me. I'd be paying less. I have what you might call a vested interest.
You said this:
Also I don't want any sense of obligation: if he pays for something, do I owe him anything?
That is an interesting question. I know some men think women owe them. But I don't really feel like I am asking anything in return for paying for date night. Well, except maybe that the other two Saturday nights a month not be date night -- that would be way, way too pricey! haha
But that change in norms could benefit me. I'd be paying less. I have what you might call a vested interest.
It's not really about the money.
I'd think you'd have a bigger vested interest in living in a society that treats people fairly and doesn't discriminate on the basis of gender.
As I indicated in an earlier post, I agree with Kestra. It's all about common sense. If you both have an income, and a desire to be together, why not share the cost of the fun? And if one person makes more and another person makes less, why shouldn't that be taken into consideration? And if one person wants to do one thing in particular, why shouldn't that person pay for it, while the other person can pay for something that they are particularly into? To me it just makes sense.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 1:52pm
It's not really about the money.
I'd think you'd have a bigger vested interest in living in a society that treats people fairly and doesn't discriminate on the basis of gender.
I agree.
I've been paying my own way since I started earning money. Sometimes we split the check, sometimes we take turns. I never liked feeling "less than" or like a gold digger, or like I owed somebody something, so it works out. I don't know why everyone doesn't do it in this modern age, unless there's a huge discrepancy in earnings.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 2:13pm
I've been paying my own way since I started earning money. Sometimes we split the check, sometimes we take turns. I never liked feeling "less than" or like a gold digger, or like I owed somebody something, so it works out. I don't know why everyone doesn't do it in this modern age, unless there's a huge discrepancy in earnings.
She makes about 50% more than I do.
I've been paying my own way since I started earning money. Sometimes we split the check, sometimes we take turns. I never liked feeling "less than" or like a gold digger, or like I owed somebody something, so it works out. I don't know why everyone doesn't do it in this modern age, unless there's a huge discrepancy in earnings.
When I visited my college friend in a very affluent community last May, as nice as it was, I remember being so thankful that I was not married to her husband who earned the money for the three homes and boats and trips and whatever else they had. I would feel so imprisoned in a relationship like that.. it wasn't just the money thing, it was his patriarchal attitude, and his expectation that she would carry out his social obligations, and I always wonder exactly how much say she has in the relationship. "God bless the child that's got his own" has always been one of my favorite lyrics.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 2:36pm
When I visited my college friend in a very affluent community last May, as nice as it was, I remember being so thankful that I was not married to her husband who earned the money for the three homes and boats and trips and whatever else they had. I would feel so imprisoned in a relationship like that.. it wasn't just the money thing, it was his patriarchal attitude, and his expectation that she would carry out his social obligations, and I always wonder exactly how much say she has in the relationship.
Devil's advocate: Maybe she knowingly gave up her "say" in order to have a cushy life. Also, is it possible that her "work" is carrying out his social obligations and such?
She makes about 50% more than I do.
You really need to compare P & L statements to get a good picture of where you stand in your relationship, you can't just go by income.
Ultralight
10-5-15, 2:36pm
You really need to compare P & L statements to get a good picture of where you stand in your relationship, you can't just go by income.
I should google P & L Statement, right?
Devil's advocate: Maybe she knowingly gave up her "say" in order to have a cushy life. Also, is it possible that her "work" is carrying out his social obligations and such?
I don't want a boss that I can't leave very easily. I'll take freedom of poverty over the indentured servitude of that kind of marriage.
Chicken lady
10-5-15, 3:12pm
So for most of our married lives dh and I have been a one earner couple. When that earner was me, we lived below the poverty line. Fairly comfortably really. We had two children during that time. On purpose. Otoh, dh makes really good money. And sometimes I have to go to crappy social activities because of it. I had a conversation with dd that went like this recently:
Me - I'm sick of laundry.
dd- I'm sick of autocad
me I don't get paid to do laundry
dd- you get paid a hell of a lot more than I make doing autocad.
Me - I prefer to get paid for other things.
dd- I'm hanging up now.
I've actually been working part time for the last seven years. Recently we've found we have more disposable income, so we changed from "all the money goes in one pot, savings first, bills next, can I buy this? Last" to - he puts away the savings and pays the bills - the leftovers are his to direct, and I pay for farm expenses and stuff/activities I want. (he still buys my needed clothing, but not wanted clothing). I loved shopping for Christmas presents with my own money and I love feeling like I can buy him a present or take him out and it's not just me choosing how to spend "our" money. Equally, I appreciate it more now when he takes me out to dinner or buys me a gift - it's not him deciding what to do with our money and I'm not second guessing or wondering if we can afford it. The bad part is I think I spend more money now that I have some that's all "mine"
Ultralight
10-5-15, 3:34pm
I don't want a boss that I can't leave very easily. I'll take freedom of poverty over the indentured servitude of that kind of marriage.
You're tough!
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