View Full Version : Trumps: White Angry Middleclass
Maybe so, but then you get to the Golden Years--and studies show that older people are the happiest, and I have to say, I agree with them. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4688191
Are you trying to depress me more?! sad-lol
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 6:24pm
my happiest level went way up in my early 40's. Kids launched, loving my career, more time to myself, pursue my own interests, not having to put the kids first, etc. Great times & things just keep getting better and better!!!!!!! I also noticed that my Mom and grandparents did not complain about their health or other things. They accepted what was and made the best of what they had. My Dad was different because he always loved life and was so happy most of the time. Then at 59 he had a massive stroke that left him with brain damage and he asked God everyday to take him. It was sad because he lived 14 more years. My Mom kept him home and we bought the house next door so we could help. It was good for him because although not happy he got to see us and the kids everyday and interact with everyone.
my happiest level went way up in my early 40's. Kids launched, loving my career, more time to myself, pursue my own interests, not having to put the kids first, etc. Great times & things just keep getting better and better!!!!!!! I also noticed that my Mom and grandparents did not complain about their health or other things. They accepted what was and made the best of what they had. My Dad was different because he always loved life and was so happy most of the time. Then at 59 he had a massive stroke that left him with brain damage and he asked God everyday to take him. It was sad because he lived 14 more years. My Mom kept him home and we bought the house next door so we could help. It was good for him because although not happy he got to see us and the kids everyday and interact with everyone.
I am sorry to hear that happened to your dad. Very tragic.
You mentioned you were happiest to have your kids launched and to not have to put the kids first. Why, may I ask, did you have kids if you would not and did not enjoy putting them first?
We all can. And that should be a red flag to society (not to the government specifically -- no need to freak out!)
1. I largely agree.
2. I think that since this is the case we all ought to have the right to some belly-aching from time to time.
3. Also since this is the case, people should be able to humanely exit stage left anytime.
Substitute "the universe" or "the human condition" for "society" and I'd say you were closer to the truth. We occupy some of the cushiest berths in human history. We are the 1%, yet we can easily find things to be miserable about. We have far more than we're entitled to, yet we can still feel cheated. Some of that has got to be coming from a boundless sense of not getting our due.
I can't help but feel that if someone "exits stage left" because they feel insufficiently cherished, they are squandering a cosmically rare gift.
iris lilies
3-2-16, 6:34pm
I am sorry to hear that happened to your dad. Very tragic.
You mentioned you were happiest to have your kids launched and to not have to put the kids first. Why, may I ask, did you have kids if you would not and did not enjoy putting them first?
Haha buddy, Im not TT but I would bet that she DID put them first and probably enjoyed that, in its own way, at the time.
There are seasons of our lives and kids move on, if it all works out as it should.That doesn't mean that everyone has to suffer theough children, and it doesnt mean that one cant enjoy the time with dependent kids but also enjoy the time after thet are launched.
Now that I am older I look back at things I did that took a lot of energy at the time, and I wonder why I did that and how I could enjoy those activities, but I did! I dont want to do them now, however. I'm in a different season of my life.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 6:36pm
I absolutely loved raising my kids and chose to have 3. We are still all very close. But by my 40's -I had my first at age 19 I was ready to be done with that part of my life. When I was raising my kids my life revolved around them, their needs, etc and I was fine with that. My friends all had kids and we had great times together. But I did not have empty nest syndrome at all. I was ready for my new phase of life. I started my new career about that time too. Now I am semi-retired and loving this part of my life-another new chapter.
Substitute "the universe" or "the human condition" for "society" and I'd say you were closer to the truth. We occupy some of the cushiest berths in human history. We are the 1%, yet we can easily find things to be miserable about. We have far more than we're entitled to, yet we can still feel cheated. Some of that has got to be coming from a boundless sense of not getting our due.
I can't help but feel that if someone "exits stage left" because they feel insufficiently cherished, they are squandering a cosmically rare gift.
The peg might be cushy. But it is still a square peg trying to get pushed into a round hole.
Cushy berths don't make people happy or give them purpose or meaning.
I think there are lots of reasons to exit stage left. Illnesses and injuries are the main ones.
I have thus far stayed true to my iron will to live, but if I got cancer of the everything I'd do my best to deep six quickly and painlessly.
One thing worth mentioning is that sometimes people's brains have bad chemicals that turn things all wacky in there. And cushy berth or not, life becomes profoundly unpleasant and depressing and filled with anxiety. These folks should be able to cash in their chips if they want too.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 6:38pm
IL: you hit the nail on the head:~)
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 6:39pm
UL: people with depression severe or not need meds & therapy-not death. Now those with alzheimer's etc -I really feel for them. So very difficult.
UL: people with depression severe or not need meds & therapy-not death.
I think that you should leave that decision up to the person with the depression.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 6:46pm
People kill themselves all the time so that decision is left up to them.
People kill themselves all the time so that decision is left up to them.
It is illegal to kill one's self. People often screw it up -- with pills or guns. It is messy. There can be no ceremony to it. Your loved ones cannot be present or they could be charged with a crime.
That is why we need doctor assisted suicide.
As K-Von said: "God Bless You, Dr. Kevorkian!"
I think that you should leave that decision up to the person with the depression.
What about the people who love them and the effect their suicide will impose? Do they count?
What about the people who love them and the effect their suicide will impose? Do they count?
Count how? To whom?
If I had cancer of the everything I hope that the 3 or 4 people who love me would drive me to Kevorkian's suicide motel, put my dog on my lap, and say: "We're sad to see you go, but happy to be here when you free yourself from the pain."
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 7:13pm
Just because they screwed it up doesn't mean they can't try again. I had a friend whose hubby tried 3x's by the time he did it right.
Just because they screwed it up doesn't mean they can't try again. I had a friend whose hubby tried 3x's by the time he did it right.
That is sad. Very sad.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 7:24pm
It was very sad. She got him help over and over but after 10 years separated from him because the constant drama was bad for herself and their son. Sometimes you can't stop a train from wrecking. The devastation for his family was incredible and still scars people to this day even though it was 40 years ago.
It is illegal to kill one's self.
In which states in the USA is it illegal?
In which states in the USA is it illegal?
I can't imagine a worse use of the court's time than to try to convict a person guilty of killing themselves.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 8:11pm
I thought it was illegal everywhere-I could be wrong but never knew anyone to be taken to court over it. I do know that if you are present at someone's elses you can be charged with a crime.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 8:13pm
I just looked it up and it was decriminalized a long time ago.
Williamsmith
3-2-16, 8:14pm
Causing or assisting suicide is illegal in Pennsylvania. Alcohol is often involved. Depression is an illness not worthy of encouraging someone to feel free to commit suicide. Compassion would demand we try to help them stay alive. It is no different than saving a person from drowning in my book. Those who suffer from cancer......if they feel so inclined will end it before they are incapacitated. The handgun or rifle is the most popular method of choice. It is very hard on the survivors.
I thought it was illegal everywhere-I could be wrong but never knew anyone to be taken to court over it. I do know that if you are present at someone's elses you can be charged with a crime.
What precisely do you get charged with, if you are simply present?
It is very hard on the survivors.
It's also not the nicest thing to inflict upon the first responders. (And horribly cruel when it's a suicide-by-cop scenario.)
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 9:23pm
It is my understanding that if they think you assisted in any way there would be a problem and if you were present it might be a problem proving you didn't help. Also some professions might require you to try to intervene depending on what type of license you may hold, etc. I think this would be a very gray area and not one that I would be willing to risk my licenses/professional standing on etc.
It is my understanding that if they think you assisted in any way there would be a problem and if you were present it might be a problem proving you didn't help.
Oddly though, in the USA, the prosecution bears the burden of proof....
Also some professions might require you to try to intervene depending on what type of license you may hold, etc. I think this would be a very gray area and not one that I would be willing to risk my licenses/professional standing on etc.
"Duty to act" is pretty carefully defined, it's not grey at all.
my happiest level went way up in my early 40's. Kids launched, loving my career, more time to myself, pursue my own interests, not having to put the kids first, etc. Great times & things just keep getting better and better!!!!!!! I also noticed that my Mom and grandparents did not complain about their health or other things. They accepted what was and made the best of what they had. My Dad was different because he always loved life and was so happy most of the time. Then at 59 he had a massive stroke that left him with brain damage and he asked God everyday to take him. It was sad because he lived 14 more years. My Mom kept him home and we bought the house next door so we could help. It was good for him because although not happy he got to see us and the kids everyday and interact with everyone.
My parents definitely entered a happier phase once dad retired. That lasted for 16 years until my mother passed away. Then my dad's happiness level declined significantly and remained there for the last 6 years of his life. After 51 years married to her he just never really got over her death.
Personally my happiness level peaked in my early 30's and then declined somewhat in 2001 when the dot com crash and 9/11 made me become aware that there's a big world out there beyond my day to day life. A couple of years ago my happiness level came back up quite a bit. I'd be thrilled if it stayed where it is. The idea that it might go even higher when I get to retirement age is awesome.
Williamsmith
3-2-16, 10:33pm
We had a program called "Coach -Trainee". Basically it matched a veteran officer with a newly graduated cadet from the academy. I had many such arrangements.
One new Trooper in particular was with me on a suicidal subject with a rifle parked off the road in a wooded area during a very cold night. I pulled right in with high beams and takedown lights on him effectively making it impossible for him to see our movements. He was standing outside with his rifle resting on the top of the car.
I told the new guy just to talk to him calmly throu the external speaker while I made my way through the woods and behind him. The new guy did a nice job keeping him talking. I was able to surprise him and take the rifle off him while the new guy made is way to us and tackled him. That was his first successful experience.
After that he was first to the scene of three more suicidal subjects and they all shot themselves right after he arrived. It was incredible really. I suggested he slow down next time and let someone else get there first.
I also remember a violent fleeing felon we chased all over. He was also armed with a 30 caliber lever action rifle. He actually was holding the rifle out the drivers side window and shooting at us. We shot his tires out with a shotgun......an action that was later deemed too risky and for which one Trooper was disciplined. In any event it brought his truck to a halt. He got out, tucked the end of the barrel under his chin and pulled the trigger with his thumb. The gun didn't go off because the hammer fell on the guys zipper on his carhart jacket. Couldn't believe that.......now that was a guy we would have been glad to be rid of.
Teacher Terry
3-2-16, 11:58pm
Bae: I know everything you said and thought of it while I was typing it. It does not matter. I would not risk all to be with someone while they took their own life.
Teacher Terry
3-3-16, 12:07am
JP1: I read once that the kids leave people often rediscover one another and are happier then ever. Even though we all love our kids and enjoyed raising them, etc there are certain stressors with all of that and once our job is done many people get happier. So happy it was that way for your parents. My Dad was sick so long that once he was gone my Mom was relieved and lived happily for 16 more years. It would have been harder for her if he had died when he first got sick. 14 years of caring for someone is a very long time. I really admire my Mom. I never take for granted life or having my loved ones around. I have had too much death recently from close friends around my age. I know they wanted to live and I am not going to waste what time I have left on petty crap that really doesn't mean anything in the big scheme of things. One of the things I am most grateful for is that I have my health.
Teacher Terry
3-3-16, 12:11am
JP1: Also I think part of the happiness level while aging is acceptance and that can be difficult. Things like noticing that physically you do not look the same, feel the same, etc. I had a few years before 60 that I struggled with that somewhat but then realized there was no alternative. There was no fountain of youth:~).
this site does not allow me to trim quotes anymore so I'll just comment. Williamsmith, that poor new guy, I hope he honed his skills after all that but I would be gun shy (no pun intended) to ever be in charge of another suicide. Why is shooting out the criminal's tires bad? You stop the car chase and he is not shot (hopefully) in the process.
Teacher Terry- God bless your mom
I'm all for programs for physician assisted suicide such as the plan in place in Oregon. The trouble to me is what if you are at the end stage of the disease (say ALS or dementia) and can no longer communicate your wishes? If I got ALS, I would like to think I would take the med cocktail and not even tell my family, let them think I died in my sleep. But that's a lot sooner than when I would actually like to end it (when I can no longer speak, move, eat). I don't know if I would have the nerve to do it when I'm still feeling pretty well.
It is my understanding that if they think you assisted in any way there would be a problem and if you were present it might be a problem proving you didn't help. Also some professions might require you to try to intervene depending on what type of license you may hold, etc. I think this would be a very gray area and not one that I would be willing to risk my licenses/professional standing on etc.
there were times someone was actively dying and I suspected the family of giving higher doses of morphine and ativan than were prescribed but these were patients who only had a week or so to live and were totally out of it. I looked the other way and never discussed it. However, one wife was in a problematic marriage with her dying spouse. He was not dying on her time table and she was done. He could still walk and talk and had no desire to kill himself. She gave him a whole bottle of liquid morphine and ativan and he died. The nurse who had him flat out said it was murder, she was laughing about it and cracking jokes. Unbelievable. I did express my feeling to my manager that I wasn't aware we did not one thing when a patient is murdered, but management swept it under the rug. I was ready to make an anonymous tip to the police but I am certain I would've lost my job.
Strange how this thread has become a discussion of suicide.
yeah, how did we get here? Probably something I said, lol
Williamsmith
3-3-16, 8:46am
this site does not allow me to trim quotes anymore so I'll just comment. Williamsmith, that poor new guy, I hope he honed his skills after all that but I would be gun shy (no pun intended) to ever be in charge of another suicide. Why is shooting out the criminal's tires bad? You stop the car chase and he is not shot (hopefully) in the process.
Teacher Terry- God bless your mom
I'm all for programs for physician assisted suicide such as the plan in place in Oregon. The trouble to me is what if you are at the end stage of the disease (say ALS or dementia) and can no longer communicate your wishes? If I got ALS, I would like to think I would take the med cocktail and not even tell my family, let them think I died in my sleep. But that's a lot sooner than when I would actually like to end it (when I can no longer speak, move, eat). I don't know if I would have the nerve to do it when I'm still feeling pretty well.
freshstart....on the new guy. It is often the case that someone is in a temporary state of being out of control, either due to drugs, alcohol, mental illness or criminal psychopathy. All it takes is for someone representing a position of authority to show up on the scene and they make their last great final statement.
There really is not much an average street officer can say. It is more what not to say. I suspect most outcomes are already decided before you even arrive. For whatever reason, this guy had an unlucky streak. He did find his niche. He is the director of computer forensics for western Pennsylvania and as such has had a hand in many important cases. We are still good friends.
Shooting from a moving vehicle is problematic. Shooting at a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle is usually considered not within the range of expertise of the average patrolman and at worst could be reckless endangerment of the general public. However, in the case, the guy knew how to handle a shotgun, all other attempts to get the vehicle stopped had failed, we were in a rural environment, the suspect was shooting at us and in the end it worked out perfectly.
Unfortunately, some zealous administrators decided to make an example and instead what they did was permanently ruin a young officers attitude for the rest of his career. He should have gotten a commendation but instead got reprimanded.
UA,
In a way, this thread has always been about suicide. Just suicide of the Republican Party. I do think that assisted Suicide in the case of the GOP would be widely accepted at this point. It is pretty clear the party needs a big dose of something to put thm out of their misery.
Williamsmith
3-3-16, 9:10am
The WAMC is going to have a great big laugh today. Mitt Romney is upset about Donald Trump, well let's be clear.....he was okay with Donald Trump when he endorsed him for grand Puba of the GOP last time. But not so much now.
Now Mitt thinks he has to step in and smack the back of Donald's hand with a ruler and wash his mouth out with soap. I guess Trump has stepped over the bounds of civility with his language and maybe wasn't quick enough to disavow the KKK or smoking and drinking or infidelity or all manner of Latter Day Saints Sins for all we know.
Yes, Mitt, that same fellow that Obama used to wipe up the symbolic floors of all America with.....that Loser of all losers, the inventor of ObamaCare, the captain of Bain Capitol, graduate of the salt of the earth Harvard University, Governor of liberal Massachusetts, and that Mormon.......is going to set things straight.
Well, Mom, pull up your recliner and pass the Budweiser. This one is going to be good.
Mom, did you know that Trump is a phony and a fraud? And that we are just a bunch of suckers? Yeah, he has been taking advantage of us weak minded middleclass people. It has all been a hoax. The guy is a con artist...and we are his victims.
You know how we thought all along that we were just pissed off at the GOP for ripping us off and not doing anything to represent our interests? Well, that's not how it ever was. Here all along it was the GOP establishment guys that are fit to lead.
What else is he saying PA?
Well, believe it or not mom, Trump is not like all the other good and honest guys of the GOP. He is actually dishonest and untrustworthy. Yeah, Trump is more like Putin. Not what we need. We need another George W. Bush.
Mom, you shouldn't fall off your chair laughing......you could get hurt...or spill your beer.
Wow, they don't get it. They think we care who wins the election.
Mom, have you seen the remote control....
freshstart
3-3-16, 11:15am
....or spill your beer, lol
Teacher Terry
3-3-16, 1:43pm
I am for assisted suicide. I don't blame that young woman for moving to Oregon when she had brain cancer. FS: that is the problem with something like ALS by the time you want to do it you re no longer physically capable or go too soon. Ugh!
I am for assisted suicide.
For physical illness but not mental illness?
Teacher Terry
3-3-16, 1:46pm
PI can be incurable but MI not so much.
PI can be incurable but MI not so much.
You don't think some people are MI terminally? As in being MI is how they will be for life?
I know someone who is 46 years old. He has been deeply depressed since age 17. They gave him meds, therapy of all kinds, put him in hospitals, etc.
His depression has not been alleviated. Each day it has grown a little worse.
This person is a good friend of mine. I see him suffer from this horrible, profound depression.
I'd support and vote for a law that allowed him to exit stage left.
You don't think some people are MI terminally? As in being MI is how they will be for life?
I know someone who is 46 years old. He has been deeply depressed since age 17. They gave him meds, therapy of all kinds, put him in hospitals, etc.
His depression has not been alleviated. Each day it has grown a little worse.
This person is a good friend of mine. I see him suffer from this horrible, profound depression.
I'd support and vote for a law that allowed him to exit stage left.
Did you ever see the movie They Shoot Horses, Don't They with Jane Fonda? She was fantastic in that role. I saw it in high school and it shook me up.
I am not in favor of assisted suicide when it comes to MI, but that movie makes a case for it.
I have a situation in my family where an in-law's first spouse killed themselves after hearing that the in-law was remarrying. And they planned it so the in-law would be the one to find them--and this particular in-law was in their 20s at the time. The ex-spouse had lifelong issues with depression. I agree with Terry that there's too much ambiguity with MI to make someone else responsible for an irreversible decision.
I agree with Terry that there's too much ambiguity with MI to make someone else responsible for an irreversible decision.
Of course you feel this way. You have not been profoundly mentally ill for decades.
Teacher Terry
3-3-16, 2:15pm
Nothing is stopping your friend from killing himself. It is not illegal to do so-I looked it up.
Of course you feel this way. You have not been profoundly mentally ill for decades.
I'm not talking about the legality of killing oneself--I'm talking about making someone else complicit.
Williamsmith
3-4-16, 6:19am
How many of the participants in last nights GOP debate have Mental Illness and would you favor assisted or complicit suicide for any one or more of them? For me, I guess it would depend on their finger size and limits of their flexibility. It is obvious and I think we can all agree that whatever illness has taken over the GOP....it is terminal.
That debate last night was three no-talent-ass-clowns and one understated sociopath.
Nothing is stopping your friend from killing himself. It is not illegal to do so-I looked it up.
Terry. Oh, Terry. Think about it.
The means of suicide are illegal.
Misuse of pills -- illegal!
Shooting a firearm in most situations is illegal.
Jumping off a private or public building is illegal.
And things like drowning yourself in a lake might be illegal too -- illegal to walk on thin ice, illegal to swim here or there, etc.
You seem like a nice person. But your thoughts on doctor-assisted suicide are half-baked at best. And your thoughts on MI are ill-informed. But perhaps most unsettling to me is how you seem to disregard a person's freedom to do whatever they want with their body.
Don't take these constructive criticisms as personal attacks. Because they are not. They are harshly questioning ideas that you hold, ideas you may want to rethink.
Though I suspect you'll simply double-down on them.
Terry. Oh, Terry. Think about it.
The means of suicide are illegal.
Misuse of pills -- illegal!
Shooting a firearm in most situations is illegal.
Jumping off a private or public building is illegal.
And things like drowning yourself in a lake might be illegal too -- illegal to walk on thin ice, illegal to swim here or there, etc.
You seem like a nice person. But your thoughts on doctor-assisted suicide are half-baked at best. And your thoughts on MI are ill-informed. But perhaps most unsettling to me is how you seem to disregard a person's freedom to do whatever they want with their body.
Don't take these constructive criticisms as personal attacks. Because they are not. They are harshly questioning ideas that you hold, ideas you may want to rethink.
Though I suspect you'll simply double-down on them.
Why are her ideas half-baked? If she favors physician-assisted suicide for those who lack the capacity to kill themselves, but in effect says someone who does have that capacity is free to do so himself without placing that terrible burden on others, how is she inconsistent? And if someone indulges in self-slaughter with no accomplices, why quibble over the legality of the act?
Williamsmith
3-4-16, 10:10am
UA,
State sanctioned suicide would be discriminatory against age, sex and race. Not to mention morally incomprehensible. I'm going to list a few statistics from the CDC that should give you pause from your idealism and allow you to entertain realist thoughts for a moment:
In 2010, over 33% of descedents tested positive for alcohol, almost 24% for antidepressants, and 20% for opiates including heroin and prescription painkillers. So you have a situation where a person could be assisted in their wishes to kill themselves while under the influence of alcohol, antidepressants, heroin or prescription painkillers but they wouldn't be able to drive themselves to see that person without being subject to arrest. Not to mention, their minds are clouded by drugs and but for that influence they would not be wanting to kill themselves.
In 2013, the CDC estimates 9.3 million adults reported they had suicidal thoughts. Those that had serious suicidal thoughts were not spread out equally among all ages. In fact, the younger you are the more of you there are. An estimated 2.7 million people actually made a specific plan to commit suicide. Again the younger you are the more of you are in your group.
This next fact should really cause you logistical nightmares.
In 2013, among students of 9-12 th grades 17% seriously considered committing suicide in the previous 12 months. Females outnumbered males twofold. Almost 14% made a concrete plan. 8% actually attempted suicide.
Males take their lives nearly four times the rate females do. But females are more likely to have thoughts about committing suicide.
Among Native American/Alaskan natives the suicide rate is 1.5 times the national average.
If you are a mixed race......you are two times more likely to have suicidal thoughts than any single race person.
Hispanic students in grades 9-12 are have suicide thoughts consistently higher than white and black students.
Full time college students age 18-22 are less likely to attempt suicide than their counterparts who are not educated.
In 2013, almost half a million people were treated in hospitals for self inflicted injuries connected with attempted suicide.
These stats cry out for compassionate medical intervention not assistance in carrying out misguided, often temporary, intentions to harm oneself.
Williamsmith
3-4-16, 10:34am
Back in mid January, I started this thread mostly as a satire or lampooning of the state of affairs of the GOP. The WAMC certainly Has reason to be angry. The GOP in their arrogance has consistently chosen the wrong approach and disregarded the real disease and has been treating symptoms for a long time. Well, now the disease has taken over the party.
Last nights debate was so disgusting in its content, so demeaning to the American people and so bereft of leadership that I can hardly believe it.
Last night Donald Trump's statement about his role as Commander in Chief of the military chilled me. I don't think the man has the temperment to be our President without jeopardizing our very existence.
I cant make fun of the situation anymore. And so I would appreciate if the moderator of this forum would give an opportunity for people to make a reply and then after such brief time as deemed appropriate......lock this thread from further comment.
I am done with it.
[QUOTE=Williamsmith;234024]
Last night Donald Trump's statement about his role as Commander in Chief of the military chilled me. I don't think the man has the temperment to be our President without jeopardizing our very existence.
I cant make fun of the situation anymore.
I have also made a shift over the last weeks on this, it is not a joke. Even if Trump doesn't win the huge support tells me that we still have to deal with his followers. I have a half written long post/FB something that I want to get out. I feel like for years I have sensed some underlying crap in our society and heard a lot of people tell me to not worry about it, let it go, it really isn't a problem, but these things are real. They have been, it just took someone giving people permission to express hate and ignorance to do it. So yeah, I have shifted to something completely different.
rodeosweetheart
3-4-16, 11:00am
Williamsmith, I am very heartened by your realization that Trump is no joke, and poses a very real threat to our nation, to our fellow citizenry, and to the world.
Thank you for reaching this conclusion, and for acting upon it.
Thank you.
I was also chilled by trumps comment regarding the military. And equally stunned at the fact that he was discussing his penis size. I guess we've gone from "speak softly but carry a big stick" to "speak loudly and swing a big dick." No thank you.
I’ll admit to being torn about what to do. We have candidates like Trump or Sanders, who each in his own way wants to blow up what we have in exchange for a gimcrack Caesarism or a revolution to overthrow common sense. On the other hand, we have Mrs. Clinton, who won’t burn the house down, but will infest it with termites for a similar result.
Based on the primaries to date, the Trump supporters comprise about 34% of a party that typically has the allegiance of around 30-40% of the general electorate. Dismissing, for the moment, the Sanders supporters as at worst dangerously naïve, there doesn’t seem to me to be a mortal threat to the Republic (unless you believe it’s possible to die of embarrassment).
The longer-term threat in my mind is whether the Republican Party can continue as an instrument of principled conservatism. The possible outcomes right now, in order of my preference, would be a sound electoral thrashing for Trump on the Ides of March, a brokered convention producing an acceptable candidate, or four years of opposition to Clinton (hoping that Trump won’t trash the party’s down-ballot performance). The most radical alternative would be starting over with a new conservative party.
I stopped any serious consideration of Trump after determining that he is a self-aggrandizing bully, a bigot, an anti-feminist, and of poor veracity and rectitude. His comments last night about the military the questionable activities around Trump University, and his vulgarity were mostly nails in the coffin. The confidential and unreleased comments to the press may indicate that his off the wall may have just been made to get attention.
To his credit, he has displayed more enthusiasm and courage than his opponents. And his confrontational style may have exposed the true nature his opponents, one of which has a ridiculous tax plan with no logical hope of succeeding, and another who wants to engage in a carpet bombing campaign. My take is that they are all con artists. So since we may lock out the discussion, that's the bottom line for me.
Bernie and Hillary are far from perfect, but they are in a whole different category of respectability.
I’l
The longer-term threat in my mind is whether the Republican Party can continue as an instrument of principled conservatism..
As a lifelong liberal I can say that is a concern of mine. The system works on a balance and if the conservative voters don't have any candidates that are basically ethical and support conservative economics then what is left. I read a fascinating article by an evangelical minister who realized for himself that they were being used by people like Trump to support a platform that was deeply offensive. There are going to be more of those people who cannot in any way consider him but are still conservative. The violence that has been reported in his rallies scares the crap out of me, especially if conservative voters are left with no choices.
As a lifelong liberal I can say that is a concern of mine. The system works on a balance and if the conservative voters don't have any candidates that are basically ethical and support conservative economics then what is left. I read a fascinating article by an evangelical minister who realized for himself that they were being used by people like Trump to support a platform that was deeply offensive. There are going to be more of those people who cannot in any way consider him but are still conservative. The violence that has been reported in his rallies scares the crap out of me, especially if conservative voters are left with no choices.
That is my conundrum in a nutshell. How to advocate for limited government, individual liberty, personal responsibility and the other basic tenets without wading through a sewer to do so.
We may be heading into a period like the fifties and sixties, when there was a battle with elements like the John Birchers and the Ayn Rand acolytes over what it means to be an American Conservative.
I stopped any serious consideration of Trump after determining that he is a self-aggrandizing bully, a bigot, an anti-feminist, and of poor veracity and rectitude. His comments last night about the military the questionable activities around Trump University, and his vulgarity were mostly nails in the coffin. The confidential and unreleased comments to the press may indicate that his off the wall may have just been made to get attention.
To his credit, he has displayed more enthusiasm and courage than his opponents. And his confrontational style may have exposed the true nature his opponents, one of which has a ridiculous tax plan with no logical hope of succeeding, and another who wants to engage in a carpet bombing campaign. My take is that they are all con artists. So since we may lock out the discussion, that's the bottom line for me.
Bernie and Hillary are far from perfect, but they are in a whole different category of respectability.
+1
I really didn't know if I was watching the debates or a Jerry Springer re-run last night. And then John Kasich's attempts to redirect policy discussions seemed like a ill-timed PSAs.
I am in awe of Trump's tactics, although I think that they are fairly standard in the Narcissist Playbook.
I missed the recent debate - what did Drumpf say about the military?
I missed the recent debate - what did Drumpf say about the military?
When moderator Bret Baier noted that several high-ranking military and intelligence officials said they believed the rank-and-file military would refuse to commit war crimes, per their training to refuse illegal orders, Trump replied, "They won't refuse. They're not going to refuse me. Believe me."
http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/03/donald-trump-says-military-wont-refuse-h
Speaking as a veteran, I take this as a bit of an insult.
ApatheticNoMore
3-4-16, 1:13pm
they should refuse, but doesn't anyone remember abu grihab, PICS PROVE OTHERWISE (for some military members), that they don't always refuse. So trump is calling for war crimes and others are ahistorically claiming the military always refuses to commit them. What a bunch of losers, all of them
they should refuse, but doesn't anyone remember abu grihab, PICS PROVE OTHERWISE (for some military members), that they don't always refuse. So trump is calling for war crimes and others are ahistorically claiming the military always refuses to commit them. What a bunch of losers, all of them
No one I know of is making the claim that "the military always refuses to commit them". There are always bad actors and bad situations. When violations occur, the offenders are prosecuted. There are always terrible exceptions, but I happen to agree that in most times at most places, the US military conducts itself honorably.
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica] Trump replied, "They won't refuse. They're not going to refuse me. Believe me."
Speaking as a veteran, I take this as a bit of an insult.
Well, dang. That's...frightening. In keeping with the whole demagogue theme though.
Teacher Terry
3-4-16, 2:22pm
UL: I have 3 graduate degrees in human services with a Ph.D in Psychology so I am well informed on MI. I have spent 25 years working with people with disabilities and many of them had a MI. If someone is really determined to kill themselves I doubt the fact that taking too many pills or shooting themselves is illegal is going to stop them and I have never known someone to be prosecuted for this. Usually suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. People are free to do what they want with their own bodies. In most states you have to do it yourself and can't expect someone to assist you. I am sorry that your friend is in such pain but I don't believe for one minute that if assisted suicide was legal that he would choose that when he has so far chosen to live. There is a reason he is choosing to live. Obviously there is really something wrong with Trump for thinking that he can make decisions-even immoral and illegal ones for other people.
When moderator Bret Baier noted that several high-ranking military and intelligence officials said they believed the rank-and-file military would refuse to commit war crimes, per their training to refuse illegal orders, Trump replied, "They won't refuse. They're not going to refuse me. Believe me."
http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/03/donald-trump-says-military-wont-refuse-h
Speaking as a veteran, I take this as a bit of an insult.
this is the most disturbing thing I've heard.
UL: I have 3 graduate degrees in human services with a Ph.D in Psychology so I am well informed on MI. I have spent 25 years working with people with disabilities and many of them had a MI. If someone is really determined to kill themselves I doubt the fact that taking too many pills or shooting themselves is illegal is going to stop them and I have never known someone to be prosecuted for this. Usually suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. People are free to do what they want with their own bodies. In most states you have to do it yourself and can't expect someone to assist you. I am sorry that your friend is in such pain but I don't believe for one minute that if assisted suicide was legal that he would choose that when he has so far chosen to live. There is a reason he is choosing to live. Obviously there is really something wrong with Trump for thinking that he can make decisions-even immoral and illegal ones for other people.
Well, I am just a humble fisherman. So I can't claim to know what people -- especially those with MI feel or want. I leave that up to them.
But I do know that people ought to be free to choose to do whatever they want with their bodies. I suppose you'd ban anything that can shorten someone's life? Smoking ciggies? Heavy drinking? Dangerous sports? Unprotected sex?
Here is what they failed to teach you in that fancy PhD program:
So what if shooting a gun inside a house (to kill oneself) is illegal -- they will do it anyway? So what if taking pills is illegal? A suicidal person will do it anyway? That is really your PhD level answer here?
"They'll do it anyway! Why have something humane, compassionate, and in accordance with their wishes? Just let them take a bunch of pills and whiskey!"
Come on. You dug yourself into a deep hole here, Doctor. Like I said you would, you doubled down on something you know is wrong.
Actually, my friend tried very hard to kill himself. It did not work. He stays alive now not for any joy associated with life, but because he does not want to put his wife through trauma yet. Though she has tearfully told me that if doctor assisted suicide was legal she'd support his decision to do it.
So quit acting like you know every MI person's problem is temporary. You don't!
freshstart
3-5-16, 10:24am
I can favor physician assisted suicide for the traditionally terminally ill, I also believe they should be allowed to do it themselves or a family member perform the act for them. In Oregon, it is no small thing to die this way, I forget the exact info but remember at least two docs have to sign off and the person is evaluated psychologically.
I agree that people outside of this rather small group should be able to do what they want, regardless of legality. However, I don't back physician assisted suicide for the mentally ill or family members doing it. I believe in mobile crisis intervention, 72 hr psych holds for the suicidal and affordable, accessible psych care, especially for those who have it long term. I believe in prevention but if someone is determined, even after good intervention, well then, that's their choice. I have seen terminally ill depressed patients ready to end it all, we do a suicide contract, get meds on board immediately, therapy and crisis intervention, make sure painful symptoms are managed and 99% of the time, once all is in place, they no longer want to kill themselves. If we did this for non-terminal patients as well, I believe suicide would be much less prevalent.
Teacher Terry
3-5-16, 4:05pm
UL: I didn't say it is always temporary -I said "usually." I could give a shit if people choose to drink themselves to death, take drugs, etc. It is their life and they can choose to live the way they want. your friend is not alive because it is illegal to kill himself-he is choosing life at this point. When you have 25 years experience working with this population and the advanced edcation to do so then you can tell me I am wrong. Right now your opinion is ill informed and ignorant.
Williamsmith
5-7-16, 8:59am
Two months ago I was pretty fed up with the tone of the Republican debates. In the past 60 days a lot has happened.
Influential republicans are choosing sides but some are still on the sideline.
I will not be sitting on the sideline or playing another game. When the time comes I intend to vote for Trump and I believe a significant number of other people just like me will do the same. I will not enable the status quo. I won't pout and take my football home. Clinton is that offensive. Definitely never Clinton.
Two months ago I was pretty fed up with the tone of the Republican debates. In the past 60 days a lot has happened.
Influential republicans are choosing sides but some are still on the sideline.
I will not be sitting on the sideline or playing another game. When the time comes I intend to vote for Trump and I believe a significant number of other people just like me will do the same. I will not enable the status quo. I won't pout and take my football home. Clinton is that offensive. Definitely never Clinton.
Really can't understand how people can vote for Trump. I even checked out the documentary on him and find nothing redeeming about him. He is offensive, at best. I just don't under stand it. I don't like Hillary either but she, at least, is not offensive and has some Presidential qualities. She also has experience. Trump is all bravado. He will HAVE to have a vice president that has experience since he is totally lacking.
Except I remember people making the same argument about GW Bush. So many people thought he was a dummy but that VP Cheney would be there to guide him. And look how that turned out>:(
Except I remember people making the same argument about GW Bush. So many people thought he was a dummy but that VP Cheney would be there to guide him. And look how that turned out>:(
And W looks downright statesmanlike compared to the Trumpster. Holy hairballs!
Williamsmith
5-7-16, 8:20pm
As imperfect as Trump is........I prefer not to accept the politics that got us in this jam in the first place. With Clinton, there is absolutely no hope to halt the national debt from climbing. With due respect to Bernie, the national debt and the economy are of utmost importance. I do not know how Trump will work out but I know Clinton and four years of that scares me. Bernie is obviously more of the people's choice but he can't even get the majority of delegates even when he wins the primary. That's how the Clintons roll. The only hope she has is if she takes Bernie as VP and if Trump self destructs. His followers will not break ranks and run.
I would also like to bury the Mitt Romneys of the world and their holier than thou attitudes. I hope he runs as a third party candidate and when he garners one percent of the vote he will go home to stay.
As as far as a VP.....Gingrich is at the top of the list based on what Trump says he wants. He is definitely a deal maker.
Except I remember people making the same argument about GW Bush. So many people thought he was a dummy but that VP Cheney would be there to guide him. And look how that turned out>:(
so let's do none of that again and vote for Clinton
As imperfect as Trump is........I prefer not to accept the politics that got us in this jam in the first place. With Clinton, there is absolutely no hope to halt the national debt from climbing. With due respect to Bernie, the national debt and the economy are of utmost importance. I do not know how Trump will work out but I know Clinton and four years of that scares me. Bernie is obviously more of the people's choice but he can't even get the majority of delegates even when he wins the primary. That's how the Clintons roll. The only hope she has is if she takes Bernie as VP and if Trump self destructs. His followers will not break ranks and run.
I would also like to bury the Mitt Romneys of the world and their holier than thou attitudes. I hope he runs as a third party candidate and when he garners one percent of the vote he will go home to stay.
As as far as a VP.....Gingrich is at the top of the list based on what Trump says he wants. He is definitely a deal maker.
I understand your desire to shake things up, and I'm there with you, but only as far as Bernie Sanders. I was just listening to Trump talking about Hillary and Elizabeth Warren and I hate the way he describes people as if they were Garbage Pail Kids--Lyin' Ted, Crooked Hillary, etc. How schoolyard can you get?? Maybe reducing a race to the Presidency as nothing more than a Batman and Robin comic book is the secret of his success--after all, reducing your message to superficial, unsubstantiated adjectives is the best marketing technique there is--but I think it's a scary way to capture voters.
I'm all for shaking things up too but the thing about revolutions is that once you get rid of the old sometimes what comes in to fill the void is worse than what existed before. With planning they can turn out great, but it's not a given. Trump would certainly shake things up but, frankly, I have no idea what he would actually do once he became president, and I'm not even convinced that he does either.
gimmethesimplelife
5-8-16, 10:16am
Something that I don't see covered on the media and yet another reason I'm afraid of Trump. How dare he antagonize Mexico as he does? The man honestly has no clue what America has become and that America forces - as in coerced via no choice due to simple economics- so many Americans across the border for access to health and dental care that is unaffordable in the US.
Mexico is a lifesaver and a safety valve for so many.....and what does Trump do? Imperil the safety valve and make lower income people yet more vulnerable to America. I truly am sickened by him for this - there is no excuse for putting US citizens at such risk to the United States like this by antagonizing Mexico. How out of touch with reality can the man possibly be? This is even worse than Ted Cruz giving up his Canadian citizenship and passport. Luckily he's a done deal but now we have Trump putting US citizens at risk......
Hillary I'm not thrilled about but here's the rub. Keeping the status quo means not imperiling affordable medical and dental care in Mexico for those swept under the rug by America. Voting for Trump is saying you are OK with potentially victimizing a class of Americans forced across the border for health and dental - and this is OK? Just thought I'd drop that bit of reality here as the media is not going to cover this.
Once again, I don't much like Hillary either. But a vote for her equals a vote for basic human rights in the sense that we keep less hostile relations with Mexico and the safety net of crossing the border for affordable medical and dental open. It seems to me that simply from a basic human rights perspective, Hillary is the lesser of the two evils. Rob
In Trump, the Left finally gets the cartoon villain of their dreams. He's crude, boorish and not particularly committed to truth. He gets his strongest support from those bitter clingers in iron oxide flyover country. He's not even ashamed of being rich. He respects none of the established pieties. What's not to hate?
On the Right, he's the demagogue who seems to be hijacking the Republican Party and re-branding it into something resembling one of those nasty little European ethno-nationalist parties. What's worse, insofar as he has any coherent policies at all, he's nothing more than a big government liberal. Probably to the left of Clinton in many areas once she gets the nomination and quits needing to pretend she's a less nutty version of Sanders. Once again, what's not to hate?
I can't see any reason to support the guy outside petty spite and a sadly ignoble strain of nihilism.
On the other hand, Clinton has raised political hackery to a point that makes satire redundant. From the faux southern accent she affects when she wants to appear folksy, to the crude identity politics, she seems the very picture of self-serving insincerity. Is her greatest appeal as the lessor evil? That is sad indeed.
As someone who wants to think of himself as a principled conservative, I find myself in a quandary. Neither front-runner seems even remotely acceptable. At the top of the ticket, I could either vote third party or write in Calvin Coolidge, and support the down-ballot Republicans who can be counted on to oppose principle to sleaze in the bitter years to come.
Williamsmith
5-8-16, 11:42am
Rob, the issue you bring up is narrow considering all the issues facing the nation as a whole. Mexico is foreign policy, security and economics as well.
But take a look at Clinton. She was leading the charge on Iraq in 2002. Gaddafi is dead almost directly because of Clinton foreign policy. She was deeply involved in regime change in Libya and created the mess we call ISIS in Syria. She has a consistent record......she makes things worse than any problem she tries to resolve. Does she get good marks for the Iranian Agreement? She is an ends justify the means foreign policy expert. She is an expert in using the United Nations as cover for military intervention without congressional approval. How about the annex in Benghazi and that fiasco. Her lies to the families of those killed?
I have to to laugh at the hypocracy of a candidate who rails against gun ownership in her own country when she is the architect of arms and ammunition smuggling which destabilized middle eastern countries not to mention fueled the murder of countless innocent citizens.
A famous joke goes like this, "If you hate this country so much, why don't you go live in another country?" And the answer to that is, "Because I don't want to be a victim of its foreign policy." Clinton has a real record of oppressing citizens from other countries.
Trump does not have a diplomatic bone in his body but please don't over look the abusive real historical record of Hillary Clinton and her global interventionism and love affair with the military.
Williamsmith
5-8-16, 11:54am
LDAHL,
To quote Gen. George Patton, a Trumpesque historical military figure who got things done but never in a politically correct manner.....
"A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week."
We are sometimes faced with choices where delay and indecisiveness contribute to failure. Trump is definitely one of those. I sense that the primary goal is to keep Clinton from the White House, intuition is sometimes better than ridged principles. That good plan now is to support Trump rather than wait for a perfect candidate.
Would you be comfortable with three newly appointed Supreme Court Justices from the cache of cronies that the Clintons have made over their political career?
And democrats should not not forget the accusations Bernie has made ......... They are all true.
gimmethesimplelife
5-8-16, 12:17pm
Rob, the issue you bring up is narrow considering all the issues facing the nation as a whole. Mexico is foreign policy, security and economics as well.
But take a look at Clinton. She was leading the charge on Iraq in 2002. Gaddafi is dead almost directly because of Clinton foreign policy. She was deeply involved in regime change in Libya and created the mess we call ISIS in Syria. She has a consistent record......she makes things worse than any problem she tries to resolve. Does she get good marks for the Iranian Agreement? She is an ends justify the means foreign policy expert. She is an expert in using the United Nations as cover for military intervention without congressional approval. How about the annex in Benghazi and that fiasco. Her lies to the families of those killed?
I have to to laugh at the hypocracy of a candidate who rails against gun ownership in her own country when she is the architect of arms and ammunition smuggling which destabilized middle eastern countries not to mention fueled the murder of countless innocent citizens.
A famous joke goes like this, "If you hate this country so much, why don't you go live in another country?" And the answer to that is, "Because I don't want to be a victim of its foreign policy." Clinton has a real record of oppressing citizens from other countries.
Trump does not have a diplomatic bone in his body but please don't over look the abusive real historical record of Hillary Clinton and her global interventionism and love affair with the military.You are right, the issue I bring up is narrow. Agreed. BUT (and there's a HUGE BUT coming) - find yourself in that situation and suddenly this issue becomes much, much, much less narrow. It so happens at the moment I have decent insurance......but I will never turn my back on those who don't have access to insurance and I also understand that without a Democrat in office, I'm likely back to Mexico for health care. Of cource I am by definition permanently unable to trust America......of cource I am afraid of Trump for making Mexico at risk as a lifeline for so many Americans.
Granted there are MANY other issues in this election, I get that. This however given my life experiences in this country is absolutely critical. A close exit to affordable health care, an easy way to offshore it is beyond critical these days. Hillary would not mess with this via keeping the status quo. We are talking of human life here and the importance of accessing Mexico to maintain health and human dignity for so many people. That said, Hillary does come with enough baggage to sink the Titanic. I'll give all the conservatives here that. That means much less to me than keeping Mexico accessible as a safety net against the United States, however.
I get that Hillary has issues.....but she also brings with her platform continued protection against the United States for lower income US citizens who still can't access health care - fleeing to Mexico is not imperiled under Hillary. That's worth it's weight in gold. Rob
LDAHL,
To quote Gen. George Patton, a Trumpesque historical military figure who got things done but never in a politically correct manner.....
"A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect plan executed next week."
We are sometimes faced with choices where delay and indecisiveness contribute to failure. Trump is definitely one of those. I sense that the primary goal is to keep Clinton from the White House, intuition is sometimes better than ridged principles. That good plan now is to support Trump rather than wait for a perfect candidate.
Would you be comfortable with three newly appointed Supreme Court Justices from the cache of cronies that the Clintons have made over their political career?
And democrats should not not forget the accusations Bernie has made ......... They are all true.
It's not apparent to me that Trump offers either a good plan or decisive execution. Just a focal point for resentment.
At this point, I don't know whether Trump or Clinton will do more harm to the country and the world. If Clinton is worse, she is only slightly worse. I will search for an honorable third choice, and rely on our ramshackle collection of constitutional checks on the arbitrary exercise of power.
Teacher Terry
5-8-16, 1:21pm
Trump is just down right scary. He insults everyone and there is no way he can be diplomatic which is required of a president. The ACA was a good start but we really need single payer health insurance for everyone. Many people can't afford to use their ACA insurance because the deductibles are so high. When asked how he is going to make Mexico pay for the wall he wouldn't answer and just kept saying he would.
I am careful about my input in this type of thread but may I offer one of my mother's favourite sayings based on her living through the burgeoning Hitler era and its consequences "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know".
Williamsmith
5-8-16, 1:37pm
Trump is just down right scary. He insults everyone and there is no way he can be diplomatic which is required of a president. The ACA was a good start but we really need single payer health insurance for everyone. Many people can't afford to use their ACA insurance because the deductibles are so high. When asked how he is going to make Mexico pay for the wall he wouldn't answer and just kept saying he would.
On the Wall:
COMPELLING MEXICO TO PAY FOR THE WALLIntroduction: The provision of the Patriot Act, Section 326 - the "know your customer" provision, compelling financial institutions to demand identity documents before opening accounts or conducting financial transactions is a fundamental element of the outline below. That section authorized the executive branch to issue detailed regulations on the subject, found at 31 CFR 130.120-121. It's an easy decision for Mexico: make a one-time payment of $5-10 billion to ensure that $24 billion continues to flow into their country year after year. There are several ways to compel Mexico to pay for the wall including the following:
On day 1 promulgate a "proposed rule" (regulation) amending 31 CFR 130.121 to redefine applicable financial institutions to include money transfer companies like Western Union, and redefine "account" to include wire transfers. Also include in the proposed rule a requirement that no alien may wire money outside of the United States unless the alien first provides a document establishing his lawful presence in the United States.
On day 2 Mexico will immediately protest. They receive approximately $24 billion a year in remittances from Mexican nationals working in the United States. The majority of that amount comes from illegal aliens. It serves as de facto welfare for poor families in Mexico. There is no significant social safety net provided by the state in Mexico.
On day 3 tell Mexico that if the Mexican government will contribute the funds needed to the United States to pay for the wall, the Trump Administration will not promulgate the final rule, and the regulation will not go into effect.
Trade tariffs, or enforcement of existing trade rules: There is no doubt that Mexico is engaging in unfair subsidy behavior that has eliminated thousands of U.S. jobs, and which we are obligated to respond to; the impact of any tariffs on the price imports will be more than offset by the economic and income gains of increased production in the United States, in addition to revenue from any tariffs themselves. Mexico needs access to our markets much more than the reverse, so we have all the leverage and will win the negotiation. By definition, if you have a large trade deficit with a nation, it means they are selling far more to you than the reverse - thus they, not you, stand to lose from enforcing trade rules through tariffs (as has been done to save many U.S. industries in the past).
Cancelling visas: Immigration is a privilege, not a right. Mexico is totally dependent on the United States as a release valve for its own poverty - our approvals of hundreds of thousands of visas to their nationals every year is one of our greatest leverage points. We also have leverage through business and tourist visas for important people in the Mexican economy. Keep in mind, the United States has already taken in 4X more migrants than any other country on planet earth, producing lower wages and higher unemployment for our own citizens and recent migrants.
Visa fees: Even a small increase in visa fees would pay for the wall. This includes fees on border crossing cards, of which more than 1 million are issued a year. The border-crossing card is also one of the greatest sources of illegal immigration into the United States, via overstays. Mexico is also the single largest recipient of U.S. green cards, which confer a path to U.S. citizenship. Again, we have the leverage so Mexico will back down.
Conclusion: Mexico has taken advantage of us in another way as well: gangs, drug traffickers and cartels have freely exploited our open borders and committed vast numbers of crimes inside the United States. The United States has borne the extraordinary daily cost of this criminal activity, including the cost of trials and incarcerations. Not to mention the even greater human cost. We have the moral high ground here, and all the leverage. It is time we use it in order to Make America Great Again.
From donaldjtrump.com
I am careful about my input in this type of thread but may I offer one of my mother's favourite sayings based on her living through the burgeoning Hitler era and its consequences "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know".
Which devil do we know better in this instance? The bloviator or the triangulator?
Now that Trump basically has the nomination tied up, it will be interesting to see how he modulates to try to reach the people his current message has not captured.
Williamsmith
5-8-16, 1:47pm
Trump has a policy statement on healthcare also at the same website. Trump has a much more shall we say progressive approach to healthcare than any of the establishment republicans who are refusing to support him. It is not because of his so called lack of temperment to govern that they oppose him. It is because they can not control him and as such, their own future is at risk. By the way, the same reason they didn't support Cruz.
Williamsmith
5-8-16, 2:02pm
I am careful about my input in this type of thread but may I offer one of my mother's favourite sayings based on her living through the burgeoning Hitler era and its consequences "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know".
Except in this case there is a devil we know and are quite fed up with.
[QUOTE=Williamsmith;240395]As imperfect as Trump is........I prefer not to accept the politics that got us in this jam in the first place. With Clinton, there is absolutely no hope to halt the national debt from climbing.
What no one is mentioning... as you say the national debt is increasing.... if Trump is elected he plans on BUILDING UP the military. What you suppose that will do to our national debt? Also, saw recently that 20 nations met and asked about Trump. Only one gave him a positive review. Can you guess who? Scary!!!!
Trump does not have a diplomatic bone in his body ....
How can you condone this?
Which devil do we know better in this instance? The bloviator or the triangulator?
No one who's been paying attention will be surprised at all by anything Hillary does if she gets elected. We really can't know a potential president's likely future actions any better than we do with Hillary.
Trump, who knows. If elected he may well turn out to be the blow up the establishment, pragmatic decisions leader we need. (at least until the military industrial complex decides that he's too much a threat of bringing world peace and finds a nice grassy knoll to prevent that). Or he may just be Hitler with a bad comb-over. But we just don't know.
gimmethesimplelife
5-8-16, 4:12pm
No one who's been paying attention will be surprised at all by anything Hillary does if she gets elected. We really can't know a potential president's likely future actions any better than we do with Hillary.
Trump, who knows. If elected he may well turn out to be the blow up the establishment, pragmatic decisions leader we need. (at least until the military industrial complex decides that he's too much a threat of bringing world peace and finds a nice grassy knoll to prevent that). Or he may just be Hitler with a bad comb-over. But we just don't know.Plus 1. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
5-8-16, 4:42pm
Trump, who knows. If elected he may well turn out to be the blow up the establishment, pragmatic decisions leader we need. (at least until the military industrial complex decides that he's too much a threat of bringing world peace and finds a nice grassy knoll to prevent that). Or he may just be Hitler with a bad comb-over. But we just don't know.
In addition to those things (and yes some of the rhetoric is scary - so I don't hope for a Hitler with a bad comb over), I think he could also turn out to be VERY establishment Republican, never mind the infighting - it might be about more petty things than you can imagine. Yea I know he doesn't run as an establishment Republican, but I see him as possibly co-opted very easily, as for one thing he's a babe in the woods as far as politics, he's in way over his head and will get a lot of advisors as it were (and no the other candidates were not that inexperienced in politics). And he'll get a lot of money as well which tends to persuade (he's not self-funding his general election), but that's the case with most anyone.
Now if one were to try to rationally estimate the chances of this (as opposed to blinding projecting hopes on the latest savior - in this case one with a heck of a shadow side), which is of course unknown but to try to hazard a guess, yea look in what direction the rhetoric tends and how it changes over time, but ALSO look at who funds him (same for any candidate) - this is very important, and look at who he is picking for his vice president and cabinet positions and advisors etc..
Williamsmith
5-8-16, 5:05pm
From an opinion piece at CNN entitled "Don't let Never Trump become Ready for Hillary". By Brett J. Talley.
About Trump supporters:
They are tired of politicians who always want their vote but forget them as soon as the polls close. They are angry at a government that is steamrolled by China, can do nothing to secure the border and seems helpless against the threat of radical Islam. They don't want a politician or a policy wonk. They want a leader who listens to them. And because of Trump, for the first time in a long time, they are fully engaged in the political process.
gimmethesimplelife
5-8-16, 6:16pm
In Trump, the Left finally gets the cartoon villain of their dreams. He's crude, boorish and not particularly committed to truth. He gets his strongest support from those bitter clingers in iron oxide flyover country. He's not even ashamed of being rich. He respects none of the established pieties. What's not to hate?
On the Right, he's the demagogue who seems to be hijacking the Republican Party and re-branding it into something resembling one of those nasty little European ethno-nationalist parties. What's worse, insofar as he has any coherent policies at all, he's nothing more than a big government liberal. Probably to the left of Clinton in many areas once she gets the nomination and quits needing to pretend she's a less nutty version of Sanders. Once again, what's not to hate?
I can't see any reason to support the guy outside petty spite and a sadly ignoble strain of nihilism.
On the other hand, Clinton has raised political hackery to a point that makes satire redundant. From the faux southern accent she affects when she wants to appear folksy, to the crude identity politics, she seems the very picture of self-serving insincerity. Is her greatest appeal as the lessor evil? That is sad indeed.
As someone who wants to think of himself as a principled conservative, I find myself in a quandary. Neither front-runner seems even remotely acceptable. At the top of the ticket, I could either vote third party or write in Calvin Coolidge, and support the down-ballot Republicans who can be counted on to oppose principle to sleaze in the bitter years to come.I don't disagree with your take on Hillary truth be told - but I do see her as the lesser of the evils for those of the lower class in the United States. And also for what's left of the middle class, too - as more of the middle class are coerced into off shoring their health and dental through simple economics, civil relations are crucial with Mexico. Hillary, though likely not understanding a word I just posted, will not antagonize Mexico for petty political gain as Trump will without thinking twice.
For affordable and close off shoring of health care for the lower and now increasingly middle class - Hillary for the win. Trump represents putting the safety valve of Mexico at risk.....I can't stress this enough. The kicker is I agree with your take on Hillary.....yet a vote for her is a vote to keep access to affordable health care open in Mexico for US citizens. In simple English, due to this she offers more human rights than Trump does. Rob
The kicker is I agree with your take on Hillary.....yet a vote for her is a vote to keep access to affordable health care open in Mexico for US citizens. In simple English, due to this she offers more human rights than Trump does. RobYou've made this point several times and yet I can't figure out how Trump will prevent doctors and dentists in Mexico from taking your money. Can you elaborate?
Williamsmith
5-8-16, 7:14pm
How can you condone this?
Considering The diplomatic failures of the last eight years, how could Trump do any worse. North Korea plays with Nukes, Iran develops them, Russia routinely does practice attacks on our military, Crimea got annexed, Ukraine is a mess, Syria is a den of terrorists, Lybia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Turkey......all training grounds for radical Islam, Isreal is no closer to peace, geez I could go on. Do you really think the Trump movement is a groundswell of "backwards racists and uneducated bums? There really are articulable reasons to be fearful of the great diplomat Clinton.
Rob, the issue you bring up is narrow considering all the issues facing the nation as a whole. Mexico is foreign policy, security and economics as well.
But take a look at Clinton. She was leading the charge on Iraq in 2002. Gaddafi is dead almost directly because of Clinton foreign policy. She was deeply involved in regime change in Libya and created the mess we call ISIS in Syria. She has a consistent record......she makes things worse than any problem she tries to resolve. Does she get good marks for the Iranian Agreement? She is an ends justify the means foreign policy expert. She is an expert in using the United Nations as cover for military intervention without congressional approval. How about the annex in Benghazi and that fiasco. Her lies to the families of those killed?
I have to to laugh at the hypocracy of a candidate who rails against gun ownership in her own country when she is the architect of arms and ammunition smuggling which destabilized middle eastern countries not to mention fueled the murder of countless innocent citizens.
A famous joke goes like this, "If you hate this country so much, why don't you go live in another country?" And the answer to that is, "Because I don't want to be a victim of its foreign policy." Clinton has a real record of oppressing citizens from other countries.
Trump does not have a diplomatic bone in his body but please don't over look the abusive real historical record of Hillary Clinton and her global interventionism and love affair with the military.
:laff::laff::laff: Oh my god! Your hyperbolic hyperventilating is off the charts!
She 'led the charge on Iraq?' Really?! yes of course, cause Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney and Rice and Powell were all just following little ol senator Clinton. As were all the other Senators and House members and state gov types and, well, just about everyone. Right? Everyone was just waiting for Clinton's move on Iraq...and of course HER involvement is what created Isis. Bush and Rumsfled, etc. were just pawns in Senator Clinton's evil hands. She alone knew they were lying and she did nothing! Nothing I tell you! How dare her pretend that she believed her president had only the countries best interest at heart.
Clinton's foreign policy...Clinton's foreign policy? Gee, here she was President and we didn't even know it. Go figure. Everything bad or that you disagree with that happened on the watch of...now what was his name? Obama?, Is directly cause by Clinton.
And Benghazi? Really? Really? Come on guy, you're just embarrassing yourself here. You do realize that the more you keep beating that horse the more ridiculous you look. Even the people in your own party don't want to talk about it. That's how ridiculous this 8 investigations and counting (I'm sure) is. Oh, and the guy running the last cartoon hearing was caught FORGING DOCUMENTS TO TRY TO FRAME HER.
Please please please show me where she said she was against gun ownership. I dare you...really. "Watch out! Carter...uh Clinton...uh Obama...I mean Clinton is coming for your guns! And I really mean it this time! Really really!"
Clinton oppresses citizens huh? Again, her apparent Presidency was a secret to us all.
You forgot she kicks puppies and spits on babies...
Sheesh! If you believe all this crap it's because the right has made a cottage industry out of spinning crap on her. >8)
gimmethesimplelife
5-8-16, 7:29pm
You've made this point several times and yet I can't figure out how Trump will prevent doctors and dentists in Mexico from taking your money. Can you elaborate?The wall. If truly the wall does go up and relations with Mexico become tense, they are under no obligation to allow US citizens to enter the country. I worry a great deal about this and so do many people I know in the 85006. Beyond that, common sense dictates a high value being placed on your safety valve.....naturally I am going to keep up with current events and scan them for what impact they may have for my safety valve. Rob
We don't need a wall to "protect" us from a few dangerous drug dealers. The very idea is an abomination; even Ronald "Tear down this wall!" knew that.
What a bunch of neurotic pissants we've become.
Williamsmith
5-8-16, 7:56pm
:laff::laff::laff: Oh my god! Your hyperbolic hyperventilating is off the charts!
She 'led the charge on Iraq?' Really?! yes of course, cause Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney and Rice and Powell were all just following little ol senator Clinton. As were all the other Senators and House members and state gov types and, well, just about everyone. Right? Everyone was just waiting for Clinton's move on Iraq...and of course HER involvement is what created Isis. Bush and Rumsfled, etc. were just pawns in Senator Clinton's evil hands. She alone knew they were lying and she did nothing! Nothing I tell you! How dare her pretend that she believed her president had only the countries best interest at heart.
Clinton's foreign policy...Clinton's foreign policy? Gee, here she was President and we didn't even know it. Go figure. Everything bad or that you disagree with that happened on the watch of...now what was his name? Obama?, Is directly cause by Clinton.
And Benghazi? Really? Really? Come on guy, you're just embarrassing yourself here. You do realize that the more you keep beating that horse the more ridiculous you look. Even the people in your own party don't want to talk about it. That's how ridiculous this 8 investigations and counting (I'm sure) is. Oh, and the guy running the last cartoon hearing was caught FORGING DOCUMENTS TO TRY TO FRAME HER.
Please please please show me where she said she was against gun ownership. I dare you...really. "Watch out! Carter...uh Clinton...uh Obama...I mean Clinton is coming for your guns! And I really mean it this time! Really really!"
Clinton oppresses citizens huh? Again, her apparent Presidency was a secret to us all.
You forgot she kicks puppies and spits on babies...
Sheesh! If you believe all this crap it's because the right has made a cottage industry out of spinning crap on her. >8)
Peggy,
I knew I could count on you to spice up this conversation.
As far as Clinton's foreign policy goes and her practice Presidency......she says fairly often on the campaign trail that President Obama trusted her judgement on foreign policy enough to make her his first Secretary of State. Obama often refused to take more aggressive interventions that Clinton encouraged him to do, like the No Fly Zone over Syria.
She does a fine job of spinning crap on herself without the rights help. And I am Independent. Not Republican.
gimmethesimplelife
5-8-16, 8:00pm
:laff::laff::laff: Oh my god! Your hyperbolic hyperventilating is off the charts!
She 'led the charge on Iraq?' Really?! yes of course, cause Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney and Rice and Powell were all just following little ol senator Clinton. As were all the other Senators and House members and state gov types and, well, just about everyone. Right? Everyone was just waiting for Clinton's move on Iraq...and of course HER involvement is what created Isis. Bush and Rumsfled, etc. were just pawns in Senator Clinton's evil hands. She alone knew they were lying and she did nothing! Nothing I tell you! How dare her pretend that she believed her president had only the countries best interest at heart.
Clinton's foreign policy...Clinton's foreign policy? Gee, here she was President and we didn't even know it. Go figure. Everything bad or that you disagree with that happened on the watch of...now what was his name? Obama?, Is directly cause by Clinton.
And Benghazi? Really? Really? Come on guy, you're just embarrassing yourself here. You do realize that the more you keep beating that horse the more ridiculous you look. Even the people in your own party don't want to talk about it. That's how ridiculous this 8 investigations and counting (I'm sure) is. Oh, and the guy running the last cartoon hearing was caught FORGING DOCUMENTS TO TRY TO FRAME HER.
Please please please show me where she said she was against gun ownership. I dare you...really. "Watch out! Carter...uh Clinton...uh Obama...I mean Clinton is coming for your guns! And I really mean it this time! Really really!"
Clinton oppresses citizens huh? Again, her apparent Presidency was a secret to us all.
You forgot she kicks puppies and spits on babies...
Sheesh! If you believe all this crap it's because the right has made a cottage industry out of spinning crap on her. >8)Peggy, just wanted to say Glad to see you back here. It's been awhile since I have seen your pixels. Rob
:laff::laff::laff: Oh my god! Your hyperbolic hyperventilating is off the charts!
She 'led the charge on Iraq?' Really?! Oh I don't know about leading the charge, but she did her best to sell it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS9y5t0tR0
Considering The diplomatic failures of the last eight years, how could Trump do any worse. North Korea plays with Nukes, Iran develops them, Russia routinely does practice attacks on our military, Crimea got annexed, Ukraine is a mess, Syria is a den of terrorists, Lybia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Turkey......all training grounds for radical Islam, Isreal is no closer to peace, geez I could go on. Do you really think the Trump movement is a groundswell of "backwards racists and uneducated bums? There really are articulable reasons to be fearful of the great diplomat Clinton.
Months ago Trump stated that people would continue to vote for him even if he killed somebody. After all the gaffes he has made... I think he is right! He does not have to be diplomatic in any sense. Whatever he decides to spew from his mouth is ok by his followers. I just don't get it!
ETA ... Don't see where you can get both posts... the original was how can you condone him not being diplomatic in any way.....
ETA ... Don't see where you can get both posts... the original was how can you condone him not being diplomatic in any way.....
To reply to two different posts, for the first post, click on the 'Multi-Quote" symbol on the far right, then follow up with the "Reply With Quote" button for the second.
Some of Trump's proposed policies might be interesting to see. Much of what he wants is just hype to get media attention and will never get by the government system of checks and balances, even if he is serious. It's not so much his policies as his persona that are the most disagreeable. When ever I've done a fact checker on his statements, what he says is generally inaccurate. I've only to conclude that he is not very smart, or he is a liar. His arrogance is almost off the scale and not even close to being a good example for other people or children.
If he is elected, I don't think it will be a big disaster. I could see it as sort of like the alcoholic who won't start back up until he's reached rock bottom. It would be an example of what a failure our political system has become and maybe be the impetus for reform. The Republican party could be reduced to rubble.
Seems like we've been talking Clinton and foreign policy. I could see Trump's avenues of foreign diplomacy or cooperation closing down as he builds his wall, alienates parts of the world with his racism, and starts reducing foreign economies by reversing trade agreements. And for that matter, what of the HUGE escalation of cost of goods when we bring manufacturing industry back from counties with lax environmental regulatory costs and dirt cheap labor. Especially after all our cheap illegal labor is deported. The effect on the economy could well be off set by the stimulus from a build up of the military, though.
I liked Victor Davis Hanson's take on the Trump/Clinton Dilemma: Do you prefer your obtuseness cooked or raw?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/435138/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-conservatives-never-trump-2016
He considers Clinton "far, far worse", because she is far more effective in her prevarication and part of a Party establishment that uses the same tactics rather than a one-off demagogue like Trump. I'm not sure I completely agree, but he makes a good argument.
To reply to two different posts, for the first post, click on the 'Multi-Quote" symbol on the far right, then follow up with the "Reply With Quote" button for the second.
Months ago Trump stated that people would continue to vote for him even if he killed somebody. After all the gaffes he has made... I think he is right! He does not have to be diplomatic in any sense. Whatever he decides to spew from his mouth is ok by his followers. I just don't get it!
ETA ... Don't see where you can get both posts... the original was how can you condone him not being diplomatic in any way.....
OK, let see if this works.
OK Alan, i pushed the multi quote button and nothing happened. what's supposed to happen?
OH Ok I see now. when I pushed the button your quote didn't show up for me to type under but just added it to frugal-one's post after the fact, so to speak.
Now how can I quote you, add my comment then quote frugal-one, or anyone else and add my input underneath? know what i mean?
Some of Trump's proposed policies might be interesting to see. Much of what he wants is just hype to get media attention and will never get by the government system of checks and balances, even if he is serious. It's not so much his policies as his persona that are the most disagreeable. When ever I've done a fact checker on his statements, what he says is generally inaccurate. I've only to conclude that he is not very smart, or he is a liar. His arrogance is almost off the scale and not even close to being a good example for other people or children.
If he is elected, I don't think it will be a big disaster. I could see it as sort of like the alcoholic who won't start back up until he's reached rock bottom. It would be an example of what a failure our political system has become and maybe be the impetus for reform. The Republican party could be reduced to rubble.
See, this is just one of the many problems with Trump. He won't give in, or hit bottom or whatever. You think Obama has issued a lot of executive orders (although Bush/Reagan issued way more) Trump will rule by executive order. The first time he gets any push back from congress he will start issuing and won't stop. He is, after all, running for CEO of America and as CEO he expects his every whim to be fulfilled. His ego would not allow him to compromise.
To him, a bankruptcy is simply another opportunity to build it up again. Bankrupt a business, bankrupt a country...it's all the same to him. It really is a game for him. He's the drunk uncle at Thanksgiving who declares that if they would put HIM in charge he would fix everything.
The Trump presidency is going to be really fun!
OH Ok I see now. when I pushed the button your quote didn't show up for me to type under but just added it to frugal-one's post after the fact, so to speak.
Now how can I quote you, add my comment then quote frugal-one, or anyone else and add my input underneath? know what i mean?
You can multi-quote as many posts as you want. Each time you click on the multi-quote button, nothing will happen until you get to your final quotable post and activate the 'Reply With Quote' link. Then all the posts will show up in your Quick Reply box, formatted as individual quotes.
If you want to address each quote separately, add your text in the space between the formatted quotes, between the closing quote tag ([/quote]) and the next quotes beginning quote tag ([quote]).
I will admit I'd be interested to see what the Trump Presidential Library might look like.
Ultralight
5-9-16, 10:05am
I will admit I'd be interested to see what the Trump Presidential Library might look like.
Zing! LOL
Oh I don't know about leading the charge, but she did her best to sell it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS9y5t0tR0
As did every Congress person when dealing with the folks back home. Everyone, save the few who didn't vote for it. Everyone else stood behind their President, assuming he wouldn't be so dishonest as to lie to them to enter a deadly, and expensive war. You do realize the Dems weren't exactly let in on the secret meetings and intelligence. plenty of Republicans weren't as well. They only let them see what they wanted them to see to bolster their assertions.
Bush, Chaney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and the few top republicans who did see ALL of the intelligence should be in prison. They are war criminals.
I will never forgive them, and every person who lost a loved one will never forgive them. Ever. Our men and women didn't die for this country, your freedom, or any other blah blah blah people try to sell. They died for no-bid contracts and oil. And revenge and ego. Period. They created Isis.
And they created Trump. He is simple the culmination of 30 years of hate, fear, lock and load second amendment solutions, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah palin, welfare queens, 47% takers, they're coming for your guns and bibles, dems hate America and freedom....and a ready supply of the not so bright to believe them.
Frankly, I find it amusing that the right is (acting) so shocked by the rise of Trump. He is everything they believe in. He just says it without code words and dog whistles.
Point by point, anyone could take any of Trumps positions and find a wealth of republicans who say/believe the exact same thing. Just not so crude about it. This is the real fear the right has of Trump. He exposes them for what they really are and what they really believe.
You do realize the Dems weren't exactly let in on the secret meetings and intelligence. plenty of Republicans weren't as well. They only let them see what they wanted them to see to bolster their assertions.
Bush, Chaney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and the few top republicans who did see ALL of the intelligence should be in prison. They are war criminals.
For your edification, and my amusement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0f5u_0ytUs
I think the Trump phenomenon pretty much came as a surprise to everybody. Some on the Left can now claim He's the result of years of coarse lies and hate-mongering that the Left's high standard of discourse was unable to counter. If everything else is ultimately GW Bush's fault, why not this as well? Some on the Right can say he's a reaction to a pusillanimous GOP establishment that failed to oppose the abuses of the Obama administration vigorously enough, as well as a popular revolt against increasingly aggressive political correctness in the culture at large.
Personally, I think it's foolish and simplistic to claim any particular set of forces "created" Trump like some kind of Frankenstein's monster. I think we are in a period where dissatisfied people express their frustration through demagogues making impossible and inconsistent promises and offering up plausible scapegoats like Trump or Sanders.
Williamsmith
5-9-16, 11:39am
I liked Victor Davis Hanson's take on the Trump/Clinton Dilemma: Do you prefer your obtuseness cooked or raw?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/435138/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-conservatives-never-trump-2016
He considers Clinton "far, far worse", because she is far more effective in her prevarication and part of a Party establishment that uses the same tactics rather than a one-off demagogue like Trump. I'm not sure I completely agree, but he makes a good argument.
Victor Davis Hanson has my admiration for being able to present a clear coherent persuasive piece on why the proper coarse of action is to vote for Trump when the time comes. If you read it with an open mind..and ...provided Trump does nothing to torpedo his own candidacy.
But I have to disagree with one point. He definitely uses more than just three adjectives (tremendous, great and huge)... don't forget...."bigly".
However, I must admit a certain glee at the notion that such an abominable nitwit like Trump could twart the combined will of the great Republican Establishment, with the assistance of 10 million plus primary voters. Yes, they created in part the monster but now that he has been shown around a little, declared wanting by his creators......we plebes have kinda grown to like him. Given the types of candidates we are used to.......I much prefer a misfit over a seasoned liar. There is nothing redeeming about her. Trump is now our firewall.
Some potential leaders offer the "sunny way" of Justine Trudeau recently elected in Canada or the 'melodrama' of an completely independent Trump vs establishment. They promise to change the reality of today's world. It cannot be done and the sooner we accept the reality that our societies have changed irretrievably, need to adapt and look for options for the future, the sooner the populations will have confidence in the future. Blindly spending our children's future to prop up the old system or shutting out the world while wishing for the old ways to return are not an option.
What would a credible futurist envision?
Ultralight
5-9-16, 11:46am
Victor Davis Hanson has my admiration for being able to present a clear coherent persuasive piece on why the proper coarse of action is to vote for Trump when the time comes. If you read it with an open mind..and ...provided Trump does nothing to torpedo his own candidacy.
But I have to disagree with one point. He definitely uses more than just three adjectives (tremendous, great and huge)... don't forget...."bigly".
However, I must admit a certain glee at the notion that such an abominable nitwit like Trump could twart the combined will of the great Republican Establishment, with the assistance of 10 million plus primary voters. Yes, they created in part the monster but now that he has been shown around a little, declared wanting by his creators......we plebes have kinda grown to like him. Given the types of candidates we are used to.......I much prefer a misfit over a seasoned liar. There is nothing redeeming about her. Trump is now our firewall.
You don't talk/write like any cop I ever knew.
gimmethesimplelife
5-9-16, 1:33pm
Some potential leaders offer the "sunny way" of Justine Trudeau recently elected in Canada or the 'melodrama' of an completely independent Trump vs establishment. They promise to change the reality of today's world. It cannot be done and the sooner we accept the reality that our societies have changed irretrievably, need to adapt and look for options for the future, the sooner the populations will have confidence in the future. Blindly spending our children's future to prop up the old system or shutting out the world while wishing for the old ways to return are not an option.
What would a credible futurists envision?I agree. Western society has permanently changed and adapting to it is the only realistic option. It could be said that my leaving it? A form of adaptation. Others will adapt in different ways but the silver lining - interesting twists and turns in the plot of our lives. Maybe not what we foresaw but an extended life span somewhere warm and without health care being a loaded gun constantly cocked to my head? Works for me.......others are of course free to adapt as they see fit. But are you ever dead on about trying to prop up the old ways in this very changed world. Rob
iris lilies
5-9-16, 1:53pm
I agree. Western society has permanently changed and adapting to it is the only realistic option. It could be said that my leaving it? A form of adaptation. Others will adapt in different ways but the silver lining - interesting twists and turns in the plot of our lives. Maybe not what we foresaw but an extended life span somewhere warm and without health care being a loaded gun constantly cocked to my head? Works for me.......others are of course free to adapt as they see fit. But are you ever dead on about trying to prop up the old ways in this very changed world. Rob
Re bolded.
wait. What? Are you leaving?
Western Society? Or just the U.S?
Victor Davis Hanson has my admiration for being able to present a clear coherent persuasive piece on why the proper coarse of action is to vote for Trump when the time comes. If you read it with an open mind..and ...provided Trump does nothing to torpedo his own candidacy.
But I have to disagree with one point. He definitely uses more than just three adjectives (tremendous, great and huge)... don't forget...."bigly".
However, I must admit a certain glee at the notion that such an abominable nitwit like Trump could twart the combined will of the great Republican Establishment, with the assistance of 10 million plus primary voters. Yes, they created in part the monster but now that he has been shown around a little, declared wanting by his creators......we plebes have kinda grown to like him. Given the types of candidates we are used to.......I much prefer a misfit over a seasoned liar. There is nothing redeeming about her. Trump is now our firewall.
Bobby Jindal referred to Trump (whom he personally despises) as "the second worst choice". I think it's possible for reasonable people to disagree on that. If the GOP is going to fragment, my thinking is that a quick, painful break rather than a drawn-out agony. If there truly is a yahoo element, best to lose them now and start the rebuilding program immediately. Minimizing the association with Trump as soon and as decisively as possible might be worth four years of Clinton, especially if Congress acts responsibly.
Williamsmith
5-9-16, 2:17pm
http://youtu.be/a75u3ske8MY
You don't talk/write like any cop I ever knew.
You mean guys like Officer JD Buck Savage
This is a real training video from my academy class 1985
gimmethesimplelife
5-9-16, 2:24pm
Re bolded.
wait. What? Are you leaving?
Western Society? Or just the U.S?My husband and I are looking into other countries, right now the Phillipines is looking like a good choice. How do I say this? Life is short, why stay and struggle needlessly when there are other options? But yes, non-Western countries. Rob
Williamsmith
5-9-16, 2:26pm
Bobby Jindal referred to Trump (whom he personally despises) as "the second worst choice". I think it's possible for reasonable people to disagree on that. If the GOP is going to fragment, my thinking is that a quick, painful break rather than a drawn-out agony. If there truly is a yahoo element, best to lose them now and start the rebuilding program immediately. Minimizing the association with Trump as soon and as decisively as possible might be worth four years of Clinton, especially if Congress acts responsibly.
Precisely where we part ways.......four years of Clinton is unsurvivable because of the foundation that will be prepared for a new euro American reality. We were clearly just one young or even middle aged inspiring man or woman or liquid flowing back and forth progressive, socialist /communist away from a true transformation. Sanders was a shot across the bow of a sinking ship.
My husband and I are looking into other countries, right now the Phillipines is looking like a good choice. How do I say this? Life is short, why stay and struggle needlessly when there are other options? But yes, non-Western countries. Rob
Dude, I am a little worried you all might be in for a rude awakening. I say this as a fellow liberal! Moving to the Philippines ain't like moving to Norway. It is a third-world country where crazy stuff happens daily -- they have sweatshops like it is normal, quack "doctors," homophobia is rampant, etc.
Precisely where we part ways.......four years of Clinton is unsurvivable because of the foundation that will be prepared for a new euro American reality. We were clearly just one young or even middle aged inspiring man or woman or liquid flowing back and forth progressive, socialist /communist away from a true transformation. Sanders was a shot across the bow of a sinking ship.
Layman's terms, please.
iris lilies
5-9-16, 2:40pm
My husband and I are looking into other countries, right now the Phillipines is looking like a good choice. How do I say this? Life is short, why stay and struggle needlessly when there are other options? But yes, non-Western countries. Rob
"Looking into other countries" as in a plan to to leave within 12 months?
Edited to be nice
"looking into other countries" as in playing keyboard internet warrior?
Last train to Snarksville...
Williamsmith
5-9-16, 2:51pm
Layman's terms, please.
President Tax and Spend Sanders on steroids. It's All FREE!
Precisely where we part ways.......four years of Clinton is unsurvivable because of the foundation that will be prepared for a new euro American reality. We were clearly just one young or even middle aged inspiring man or woman or liquid flowing back and forth progressive, socialist /communist away from a true transformation. Sanders was a shot across the bow of a sinking ship.
I'm more optimistic than that. I don't think that even at this juncture we are as vulnerable than that.
President Tax and Spend Sanders on steroids. It's All FREE!
As you know, I am fine with taxing rich people at a more reasonable level. Though I am dubious about much of the spending this nation does.
I'm more optimistic than that. I don't think that even at this juncture we are as vulnerable than that.
I am not that pessimistic. haha
We are not, even at this juncture, headed for a full-on doomsday.
I am not that pessimistic. haha
We are not, even at this juncture, headed for a full-on doomsday.
Doomsday, Socialism. Potato, Potato.
iris lilies
5-9-16, 3:15pm
Last train to Snarksville...
haha, I snort laughed.Ok. i edited it.
Doomsday, Socialism. Potato, Potato.
That is how I feel about our capitalist dystopia. haha
Williamsmith
5-9-16, 3:47pm
That is how I feel about our capitalist dystopia. haha
It might do us all good to be temporary citizens of other countries just to understand how well off we all are here in USA. Russia might be a nice start.
I think part of the reason so many young people like Bernie's message of socialism is that they traveled to Europe or made friends with Europeans in college or have spent lots of time with Canadians or Australians or spent time in these types of places.
So they were just like: "If this is Democratic Socialism -- Sweeeet! Universal healthcare, light-rail, more relaxed ways of life, civil liberties galore! Sign me up!"
Teacher Terry
5-9-16, 4:21pm
But what they don't realize is that a very high percentage of their $ is going into taxes to support all that. Also some of those countries have a very high unemployment rate. I am not against any of those things but I would also need to weigh that against how much more I would pay in taxes.
I actually think they know about the taxes. But they also know that Europe has a more progressive tax structure.
ApatheticNoMore
5-9-16, 4:28pm
But what they don't realize is that a very high percentage of their $ is going into taxes to support all that. Also some of those countries have a very high unemployment rate. I am not against any of those things but I would also need to weigh that against how much more I would pay in taxes.
Yea I think most people expect taxes would be higher (but then again health insurance is also very costly - so a lot of people would break even). As for unemployment the problem is countries usually have very different ways of measuring unemployment, so it's often difficult to compare unemployment rates across countries.
I want to be one of those rich young people that gets to travel though, young people have all the time and money in the world I guess. Oh well I'm middle aged and middle class so so much for that fantasy.
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Ok, thanks. That kind of makes sense.:D
I actually think they know about the taxes. But they also know that Europe has a more progressive tax structure.
A lot of European countries have a pretty significant VAT, which tends to to be very progressive.
For your edification, and my amusement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0f5u_0ytUs
Well duh! Of course they had a 'program'. Or we suspected they did. They did before and we wanted to be sure they were following through with their promise to dismantle it. See Alan, that was what the speech was about. Saddam was obstructing the inspectors and Clinton was laying out what we could do if the inspectors wern't allowed to finish their job.
But you notice, Clinton DIDN'T invade. He kept a close watch on it and used careful reasoning to keep us OUT of a war. And it worked...until Bush came along. And Rumsfeld and Cheney were itching to start a war with him. 9/11 was a godsend for them. Unfortunately, there wasn't any real evidence that Saddam had anything at all to do with 9/11. That's where the lies and arm twisting/brow beating came in.
"Either your with us or your against us" Remember that one? How many American Democratic leaders were accused of 'loving the terrorist" simply because they disagreed with Bush. How about Cheney outing our own CIA agent in retaliation for her husband calling them on their lies. How can you possibly condone or excuse any of that?
There were NO weapons of mass destruction. None. Apparently Clinton discovered that. This is why HE didn't attack. So your link is fine, the speech is fine. It just doesn't say what You think it says. It simply shows careful measured approach to dealing with an admittedly nasty character.
And by the way, just so you know...they ALL have weapons of mass destruction 'programs'. Every one of them. They either have it or they want it.
Trump, who knows. If elected he may well turn out to be the blow up the establishment, pragmatic decisions leader we need. (at least until the military industrial complex decides that he's too much a threat of bringing world peace and finds a nice grassy knoll to prevent that). Or he may just be Hitler with a bad comb-over. But we just don't know.
I agree. It could go either way. His little constituent support seems to be coming from Republicans who are holding their nose and towing the party line, and he is no great friend of the media. If he wanders too far off into the weeds I can see the media blow things out or proportion and an impeachment political bandwagon in the works. His VP pick could be strategic. Or maybe I've just been watching Game of Thrones too much.
Or maybe I've just been watching Game of Thrones too much.Apparently Jon Snow is alive and available.
Apparently Jon Snow is alive and available.
That's good to know! His Black Watch certainly built a HUGE wall to keep the wildlings out.
iris lilies
5-9-16, 6:20pm
I agree. It could go either way. His little constituent support seems to be coming from Republicans who are holding their nose and towing the party line, and he is no great friend of the media. If he wanders too far off into the weeds I can see the media blow things out or proportion and an impeachment political bandwagon in the works. His VP pick could be strategic. Or maybe I've just been watching Game of Thrones too much.
No friend of the media? Are you kiddIng? The mainstream media MADE him by giving him so much free coverage for his antics that he was in front of us 24/7. It is deliciously ironic that those who made him despise him, but he is ratings gold.
Yea I think most people expect taxes would be higher (but then again health insurance is also very costly - so a lot of people would break even). As for unemployment the problem is countries usually have very different ways of measuring unemployment, so it's often difficult to compare unemployment rates across countries.
I want to be one of those rich young people that gets to travel though, young people have all the time and money in the world I guess. Oh well I'm middle aged and middle class so so much for that fantasy.
Health care could be a lot less costly if the powers that be, with their hands in the pockets of drug manufacturers and insurance companies, would do the responsible thing and remove profit from the equation. Because of the huge profit margins involved, we pay twice as much as any other country for much poorer outcomes.
... drug manufacturers and insurance companies, would do the responsible thing and remove profit from the equation. ...
People say this sort of thing all the time - "remove profit from the equation".
What does that look like in practice? Who pays for the R&D, trials, approval process, and manufacturing of new drugs, with "profit" removed? Who pays for manufacturing/distribution/litigation costs for existing drugs, with "profit" removed?
Are you envisioning the government stepping in and doing the whole job, or some legislated maximum ROI for this sector, or ...?
I've never quite understood the details. I know what happens when you remove "profit" from the housing market, and it's not pretty. And we see what happens when you remove it from the manufactured-goods and food sectors.
Also, as an investor, which specific pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies have excessive above-market returns, compared to other investment options? I'm always looking for a decent return, but those sectors don't seem strikingly different from others, on average.
Williamsmith
5-9-16, 7:26pm
No friend of the media? Are you kiddIng? The mainstream media MADE him by giving him so much free coverage for his antics that he was in front of us 24/7. It is deliously ironic that those who made him despise him, but he is ratings gold.
I beg to differ. All that media coverage exposed his "weaknesses". The media coverage was a result of people's interest in him. You can't make people watch. And you can't make them believe this or that simply by media coverage. The people drove the coverage. He has a wide following.
He has a wide following.
Anyone know if his steaks are any good?
People say this sort of thing all the time - "remove profit from the equation".
What does that look like in practice? Who pays for the R&D, trials, approval process, and manufacturing of new drugs, with "profit" removed? Who pays for manufacturing/distribution/litigation costs for existing drugs, with "profit" removed?
Are you envisioning the government stepping in and doing the whole job, or some legislated maximum ROI for this sector, or ...?
I've never quite understood the details. I know what happens when you remove "profit" from the housing market, and it's not pretty. And we see what happens when you remove it from the manufactured-goods and food sectors.
Also, as an investor, which specific pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies have excessive above-market returns, compared to other investment options? I'm always looking for a decent return, but those sectors don't seem strikingly different from others, on average.
Removing profit from the equation takes a re-imagining of one's purpose on the planet.
Removing profit from the equation takes a re-imagining of one's purpose on the planet.
So you are envisioning some indigo-children-led radical change in human consciousness unprecedented in the history of mankind?
Sweeeeet!
People say this sort of thing all the time - "remove profit from the equation".
What does that look like in practice? Who pays for the R&D, trials, approval process, and manufacturing of new drugs, with "profit" removed? Who pays for manufacturing/distribution/litigation costs for existing drugs, with "profit" removed?
Are you envisioning the government stepping in and doing the whole job, or some legislated maximum ROI for this sector, or ...?
I've never quite understood the details. I know what happens when you remove "profit" from the housing market, and it's not pretty. And we see what happens when you remove it from the manufactured-goods and food sectors.
Also, as an investor, which specific pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies have excessive above-market returns, compared to other investment options? I'm always looking for a decent return, but those sectors don't seem strikingly different from others, on average.
The government pays for a lot of the R&D already--which must include the hundreds of slight variations on existing drugs to dodge patent expirations, etc. Drug companies pay more, if I recall correctly, far more, on advertising than they do for R&D. I think non-profit medicine would look a lot like it looked when I was growing up in the ice age before people went bankrupt trying to pay for hospitalizations. And of course all the greedy industries probably started looking alike, return-wise, since the eighties when the "greed is good" philosophy took hold. All hail Martin Shkreli, the patron saint and icon for what medicine has become.
I don't have the figures to back it up, but suspect that a large portion of the new and better drugs come from the U.S. where the profit motive is an large incentive. However, it came as a surprise at least to me that Kaiser and Blue Cross/Blue Shield are not for profit organizations that seem to have made it work, compete in the health care market, grow their market share, and make loads of money and pay giant CEO salaries.
So you are envisioning some indigo-children-led radical change in human consciousness unprecedented in the history of mankind?
Sweeeeet!
I can imagine working diligently and conscientiously for plenty of reasons other than money.
But then again, I am an imaginative person.
Also: The same profit motive that everyone stimulates themselves to drives the things that destroy our health -- fast food, driving cars, buying all sorts of cheap plastic chit made in China, strawberries in January, etc.
ApatheticNoMore
5-9-16, 8:12pm
Of course money drives people to do at least as much harm as good, because how can the impetus of greed and if not that high up the income scale then the impetus of survival and the fear of impoverishment not lead to any corner that can be cut being cut, any corruption that can be engaged in engaged in. All pressure is to $ell one's $oul. So you cover up that the Teflon is poisonous, that the fossil fuels cause climate change, that the drug is more dangerous than it's worth or barely works and the researchers were paid off, you even lie to your stockholders, you take the money tit for tat if your a politician, you struggle with the economic consequences of whistleblowing (on a company I mean) and decide against them etc.. The examples in the news everyday are literally endless.
That may sound overly cynical as in: no body has any principles ever. No ... but I think those who have principles will if all other factors are constant do less well economically, relative to not having principles, because not having principles IS an economic advantage all other things held constant. Now of course all other things are NOT equal and so many things have their effect, but nonetheless the effect of having principles is an economic negative.
iris lilies
5-9-16, 8:15pm
Anyone know if his steaks are any good?
One of my Trump supporting friends ordered his wine. i drank some, it was ok.
she waxed poetic anout the customer service, it was great! They were out of product and she had to wait or reorder or some such snafu, but it was all great! Making wine great again! It was epic, the wine experience.
Williamsmith
5-9-16, 8:40pm
If he just beats Hillary in the general election, I'll be happy. After that, he can choke on one of those steaks for all I care and leave the rest of the job to his Vice President who is probably going to be infinitely better than Trump whoever it might be.........but please don't let it be Sarah Palin.....
No ... but I think those who have principles will if all other factors are constant do less well economically, relative to not having principles, because not having principles IS an economic advantage all other things held constant. Now of course all other things are NOT equal and so many things have their effect, but nonetheless the effect of having principles is an economic negative.
That's not what modern games theory suggests generally happens, in the long run.
http://www.bernhardrossmann.com/images/Projects/_Stimulants/cooperation/gallery/cooperation1.jpg
gimmethesimplelife
5-10-16, 1:58am
Dude, I am a little worried you all might be in for a rude awakening. I say this as a fellow liberal! Moving to the Philippines ain't like moving to Norway. It is a third-world country where crazy stuff happens daily -- they have sweatshops like it is normal, quack "doctors," homophobia is rampant, etc.Many Australians move to the Phillipines to get out of the struggle - and Australia has much more safety net than the US does, though there have been recent cuts to their dole. If it's good enough for Australians, it's for sure on my radar. Though one thing - I'm finding you want to get out of Manilla Pronto and to avoid Mindinao complety. And I will agree their Presidential frontrunner - Rodrigo Duterte - the Phillipines answer to Donald Trump - is a cause for concern. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-10-16, 2:00am
"Looking into other countries" as in a plan to to leave within 12 months?
Edited to be niceDepending on when my Mom's no longer around. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-10-16, 2:01am
Last train to Snarksville...Lol. Iris means well. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-10-16, 2:05am
Removing profit from the equation takes a re-imagining of one's purpose on the planet.Wow. Very deep and very true. I don't know how many Americans and to be fair, how many citizens of Western nations are up to this task...
Rob
IshbelRobertson
5-10-16, 5:40am
Many Australians move to the Phillipines to get out of the struggle - and Australia has much more safety net than the US does, though there have been recent cuts to their dole. If it's good enough for Australians, it's for sure on my radar. Though one thing - I'm finding you want to get out of Manilla Pronto and to avoid Mindinao complety. And I will agree their Presidential frontrunner - Rodrigo Duterte - the Phillipines answer to Donald Trump - is a cause for concern. Rob
Something to think about for all aspiring US expats
Australia probably doesn't insist that its citizens overseas pay taxes in Australia. I seem to recall reading that the USA pursues all its citizens, wherever they live, for taxes (if payable) on monies, wherever earned, and allowing for local taxation. Look at the recent case of our own, beloved dual UK-USA citizen, Boris Johnstone MP!
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 5:57am
Something to think about for all aspiring US expats
Australia probably doesn't insist that its citizens overseas pay taxes in Australia. I seem to recall reading that the USA pursues all its citizens, wherever they live, for taxes (if payable) on monies, wherever earned, and allowing for local taxation. Look at the recent case of our own, beloved dual UK-USA citizen, Boris Johnstone MP!
What would you expect from a government whose stated foreign policy is to spread democracy which is code for Global Domination. The USA pursues all its citizens because citizen is also a code name for slave. A profit motive leaves no room for compassion. Would a government that summarily executes it citizens worldwide with the push of a hellfire button from an unmanned drone insist on extracting taxes from income earned in a foreign country? Easy with a push of an electronic button. After all, imminent threat, can be defined in terms of a very very long narrative with plenty of stretching the truth.
Ultralight
5-10-16, 7:43am
There are only two options, williamsmith:
Global domination or isolationism. You choose.
There are only two options, williamsmith:
Global domination or isolationism. You choose.
You're leaving out the Obama doctrine of preemptive capitulation.
IshbelRobertson
5-10-16, 8:16am
Errmmmm some of the rest of the other nations on this globe might not wish, or allow your version of global domination... The Chinese and Russia to give just two examples.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 8:34am
There are only two options, williamsmith:
Global domination or isolationism. You choose.
My preference would be Global Partner with a more Constitutional adherence to National State of Emergency and more respect to the War Powers Act. A place where we do not create false narratives to excuse Acts of War for every situation that is not an actual or imminent threat to our nation. A place where UN approval is not the highest standard for global action. In my view, both parties are guilty of abuse but the last eight years "hope and change" we're just feeble words.
A sovereign, respected, peaceful cohabitant with a military used for preserving those things.
Errmmmm some of the rest of the other nations on this globe might not wish, or allow your version of global domination... The Chinese and Russia to give just two examples.
You're right. Should Russia start making aggressive moves against an enfeebled Europe, the US should keep its hands clean and limit it's involvement to press releases.
Ultralight
5-10-16, 9:21am
Errmmmm some of the rest of the other nations on this globe might not wish, or allow your version of global domination... The Chinese and Russia to give just two examples.
Then they face the consequences, I would guess.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 9:21am
Hoorah! ! for An Atlantic And Pacific Ocean full of nuclear subs.
I ran across an old box of odds and ends in my dads attic. There were some books on the Russian language. Hmmm.
Ultralight
5-10-16, 9:21am
My preference would be Global Partner with a more Constitutional adherence to National State of Emergency and more respect to the War Powers Act. A place where we do not create false narratives to excuse Acts of War for every situation that is not an actual or imminent threat to our nation. A place where UN approval is not the highest standard for global action. In my view, both parties are guilty of abuse but the last eight years "hope and change" we're just feeble words.
A sovereign, respected, peaceful cohabitant with a military used for preserving those things.
Most would see that as weak.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 9:26am
I have told many people this, just before I imposed my will on them....
"Don't confuse my kindness for weakness."
Ultralight
5-10-16, 9:28am
Look, I am not saying you or your idea are week.
I am just saying that is how the world might see it, either that or somewhat reasonable.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 10:20am
Today, West Virginia will tell Clinton to go to hell. A state where nearly 1/5 th of the population lives in poverty. One in ten has no health insurance and less than 20% have a degree past high school. And a state whose coal production made and still makes life infinitely more comfortable for the rest of the country. In return, they get slapped in the face.
Dont worry, government who taketh away jobs will surely provide. May I puke now?
http://youtu.be/OOrJLot-ER0
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 10:23am
A now a different view of slavery.......
http://youtu.be/hyK5MErw3r4
Ultralight
5-10-16, 10:28am
williamsmith:
You might enjoy this brief video/oral history of a coal miner who is also an "outsider" artist.
https://vimeo.com/15339238
Most would see that as weak.
What I see as a real sign of weakness is a country that needs to spend more on its military than the rest of the planet combined, just to feel safe - and even then that's not enough, there's So Much To Fear out there!!!
Ultralight
5-10-16, 12:25pm
What I see as a real sign of weakness is a country that needs to spend more on its military than the rest of the planet combined, just to feel safe - and even then that's not enough, there's So Much To Fear out there!!!
There you go again, thinkin'!
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 12:34pm
What I see as a real sign of weakness is a country that needs to spend more on its military than the rest of the planet combined, just to feel safe - and even then that's not enough, there's So Much To Fear out there!!!
Fear and greed go hand in hand.
Ultralight
5-10-16, 12:39pm
Ted Cruz is starting his campaign up again!
Ted Cruz is starting his campaign up again!
A couple of zombie campaigns may garner votes tonight, if only to rage against the dying of the light.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 1:34pm
Ted Cruz is starting his campaign up again!
No I'm pretty sure TrusTED ......is dead. Though he really isn't the kind of guy to stand off stage and send warm well wishes. He will find some way to be a prick.
http://youtu.be/XFYCQGvW-cg
Ultralight
5-10-16, 1:37pm
A couple of zombie campaigns may garner votes tonight, if only to rage against the dying of the light.
Should I lol at this?
Should I lol at this?
Didn't Karl Marx say something about history starting as tragedy and ending as farce?
Ultralight
5-10-16, 1:44pm
Didn't Karl Marx say something about history starting as tragedy and ending as farce?
HAhaha! I think so.
Teacher Terry
5-10-16, 3:59pm
WE have a good friend that remarried someone young & pretty from Russia and once she didn't need him-5 years of course she divorced him. Well after she took what the first wife had not managed to get he was disillusioned so he quit working and got his SS and moved to Costa Rica. He comes home for a visit but actually loves it. It is not my cup of tea.
frugal-one
5-10-16, 8:24pm
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Thanks for the clarification!!! Glad to see I am not the only one with the question too.
frugal-one
5-10-16, 8:39pm
My husband and I are looking into other countries, right now the Phillipines is looking like a good choice. How do I say this? Life is short, why stay and struggle needlessly when there are other options? But yes, non-Western countries. Rob
It might do us all good to be temporary citizens of other countries just to understand how well off we all are here in USA. Russia might be a nice start.
Might be a good idea to leave the US. You will then see that we do not need to be made great again. We are great now! People who have not gone to or lived in other countries have no clue as to what a great country we live in. Would do you good to see what it is like to live elsewhere. Sure hope you go!
frugal-one
5-10-16, 8:43pm
I think part of the reason so many young people like Bernie's message of socialism is that they traveled to Europe or made friends with Europeans in college or have spent lots of time with Canadians or Australians or spent time in these types of places.
So they were just like: "If this is Democratic Socialism -- Sweeeet! Universal healthcare, light-rail, more relaxed ways of life, civil liberties galore! Sign me up!"
Have you been to these places that you can speak from experience? I think not.
frugal-one
5-10-16, 8:49pm
If he just beats Hillary in the general election, I'll be happy. After that, he can choke on one of those steaks for all I care and leave the rest of the job to his Vice President who is probably going to be infinitely better than Trump whoever it might be.........but please don't let it be Sarah Palin.....
Wow.... that is some commentary! Anyone would be better than Trump!
Teacher Terry
5-10-16, 9:01pm
My DIL is from Poland and while they have great healthcare there are not enough jobs for their citizens. Many have had to move to Germany for work. Also the way we live, our houses etc are much better then the average person there. The average person here has a much higher standard of living.
gimmethesimplelife
5-10-16, 9:10pm
Might be a good idea to leave the US. You will then see that we do not need to be made great again. We are great now! People who have not gone to or lived in other countries have no clue as to what a great country we live in. Would do you good to see what it is like to live elsewhere. Sure hope you go!Au contraire. I have lived three months in Austria before with my family and have lived in rough areas of Guadalajara and Fresnillo, Mexico, for a total of nine months. It was very hard to return and readjust to the United States after having lived in Austria AND Mexico. Lots of insane issues here too is the only way I can put it. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-10-16, 9:13pm
WE have a good friend that remarried someone young & pretty from Russia and once she didn't need him-5 years of course she divorced him. Well after she took what the first wife had not managed to get he was disillusioned so he quit working and got his SS and moved to Costa Rica. He comes home for a visit but actually loves it. It is not my cup of tea.I don't know your friend but this sounds like a very sane, common sense, and logical choice to me. Good for him for giving up, breaking free, and leaving for a new chapter in his life. Rob
My DIL is from Poland and while they have great healthcare there are not enough jobs for their citizens. Many have had to move to Germany for work.
Sounds like here except for the healthcare. Shadow stats, using the less doctored method of calculating unemployment that we used to use until 1994 shows our unemployment to still be quite high.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts
ApatheticNoMore
5-10-16, 9:27pm
moving to Germany for work is moving what equivalent distance in the U.S.. Could move it and not leave the country and qutie possibly the state right? (well they share a border may not be much of a move depending) Yea sounds kind of like here when people move for work.
The Philippines??? Have you been there? The weather alone would make that a non-starter for me.
What's wrong with Mexico?
Williamsmith
5-11-16, 5:04am
West Virginia....May 10th. Humiliation Day. Last time around Clinton crushed Obama in the Democratic Primary and she stood smiling amongst cheers in Charleston, WV with confetti falling all around her. This time she was ambushed on the trail, tarred and feathered and left for dead.
Remember this day. By now Hillary was supposed to be taking a victory lap around the country, soaking up the last delegates and training her laser focus on the Republican candidate. Instead, she is having to fend off a feeble old codger from Vermont. Someone she was given an insurmountable headstart on but he is catching up anyway. Poor Hillary, finally all the lies and empty promises have caught up to her and exposed her weakness.
And two battleground must win states on the border. Ohio and Pennsylvania, could you be getting the infection?
There is only one place that can save her and she is going to be spending a lot of time there. Philadelphia. Without Philadelphia, the state of Pennsylvania is Red and Trump Country.
Florida, Ohio and PA. That's all it takes to win. I'd start sweating if I were her.
I'm puzzled as to why the Nebraska Democrats held a primary election if they had already assigned the delegates with an earlier caucus.
Remember this day. By now Hillary was supposed to be taking a victory lap around the country, soaking up the last delegates and training her laser focus on the Republican candidate. Instead, she is having to fend off a feeble old codger from Vermont.
Why is the feeble old codger still in the race? He can't imagine that he'll get 90% of the remaining vote or benefit from a mass exodus of super-delegates. Is it all about pushing the platform to the left at this point?
Ultralight
5-11-16, 8:58am
Bernie can box!
http://www.msnbc.com/kate-snow/watch/bernie-sanders-boasts-boxing-skills-610988099512 (http://www.msnbc.com/kate-snow/watch/bernie-sanders-boasts-boxing-skills-610988099512)
Why is the feeble old codger still in the race? He can't imagine that he'll get 90% of the remaining vote or benefit from a mass exodus of super-delegates. Is it all about pushing the platform to the left at this point?
OK, I had to protest the term "old codger". Who decides who is old and who is capable?:devil:
From what I have read, it seems that Sanders is simply giving Trump sound bytes to use very effectively in the lead-up to the election. Unprincipled is my call but I am not in the situation or decision-making role so please ignore as irrelevant from an outsider.
OK, I had to protest the term "old codger". Who decides who is old and who is capable?:devil:
From what I have read, it seems that Sanders is simply giving Trump sound bytes to use very effectively in the lead-up to the election. Unprincipled is my call but I am not in the situation or decision-making role so please ignore as irrelevant from an outsider.
I wouldn't call it unprincipled. He is obviously committed to his views of class and the economy. Also, as long as the money keeps flowing in from his followers, he may simply be wanting to stay in the spotlight as long as possible before sinking back into obscurity. I'm just confused about what he thinks he's accomplishing in practical terms. Maybe it's just the pure spiteful joy of vexing Mrs. Clinton and what she represents.
Ultralight
5-11-16, 9:35am
A Canadian calls The Bern unprincipled and an American right-winger stands up for him.
Am I in a bizzaro world!? lol
iris lilies
5-11-16, 9:41am
A Canadian calls The Bern unprincipled and an American right-winger stands up for him.
Am I in a bizzaro world!? lol
I know! It seems like it.
Ultralight
5-11-16, 9:47am
What do they call The Bern in Canada?
A moderate!
A Canadian calls The Bern unprincipled and an American right-winger stands up for him.
Am I in a bizzaro world!? lol
What is it Sancho Panza said of Don Quixote? "He is mad, but greatly mad. And I admire greatness".
His views on class are destructive Marxist nonsense. His policy proposals are an insult to logic. But he is consistent and forthright in his nonsensical ideas, and I can certainly admire his principled (if ridiculous) stand.
I certainly wouldn't call him unprincipled on his disregard for Democratic Party unity. I don't think he ever really pretended to be a Democrat.
What I see as a real sign of weakness is a country that needs to spend more on its military than the rest of the planet combined, just to feel safe - and even then that's not enough, there's So Much To Fear out there!!!
Well, when you fear simply shopping at the local Target without being armed to the teeth (or church, school, mall, restaurant, etc...) your gonna vote for 'armed to the teeth' nationally speaking.
Yes, a sign of weakness. And being easily manipulated. All those people, home and abroad, truly BELIEVE that they/we NEED to be armed to the teeth.
Trump plays into that. Of course he promises to 'build up the military'
Ultralight
5-11-16, 10:14am
What is it Sancho Panza said of Don Quixote? "He is mad, but greatly mad. And I admire greatness".
His views on class are destructive Marxist nonsense. His policy proposals are an insult to logic. But he is consistent and forthright in his nonsensical ideas, and I can certainly admire his principled (if ridiculous) stand.
I certainly wouldn't call him unprincipled on his disregard for Democratic Party unity. I don't think he ever really pretended to be a Democrat.
The intellectual conservative. You, sir, are a dying breed.
The intellectual conservative. You, sir, are a dying breed.
Must be all those White Castle sliders.
I look forward to the day we return to assassinating each others' ideas rather than each others' characters (assuming that happy time ever really existed).
catherine
5-11-16, 12:23pm
OK, I had to protest the term "old codger". Who decides who is old and who is capable?:devil:
From what I have read, it seems that Sanders is simply giving Trump sound bytes to use very effectively in the lead-up to the election. Unprincipled is my call but I am not in the situation or decision-making role so please ignore as irrelevant from an outsider.
I also reject the term feeble old codger. He is keeping up with a grueling campaign schedule, and he is connecting with millions of "young whippersnappers." razz, your characterization of him as unprincipled is exactly the opposite of how I see it, but I guess it depends on if your principles are based on what you want to see in the world vs making sure your party wins--or specifically, Clinton, but...
All kinds of polls show that a Sanders/Trump campaign would be a win for the Democrats, but right now, a Clinton/Trump campaign is very much on the fence, so you could say that he is principled on both counts (ideals + keeping his party in office). The independents who like Trump are the same ones who would have to decide between Trump and Sanders in a general election
Ultralight
5-11-16, 12:24pm
Come on! Did anyone watch the video of Bernie boxing?
ApatheticNoMore
5-11-16, 12:39pm
I also reject the term feeble old codger. He is keeping up with a grueling campaign schedule, and he is connecting with millions of "young whippersnappers."
what are you gonna believe the stereotype or your own lying eyes as I walked down the street with Bernie and he's healthy. Now even if one is fit etc. one could develop health problems at that age, IT IS AGE afterall and it comes with potential problems. In an ideal world, I wish we had younger good people running since it would be better if they were younger and thus likely healthier, but such are not the choices we have (and neither Hillary nor Trump is young and none too healthy looking either).
razz, your characterization of him as unprincipled is exactly the opposite of how I see it, but I guess it depends on if your principles are based on what you want to see in the world vs making sure your party wins--or specifically, Clinton, but...
he's as principled as any that run on a duopoly ticket, which may not be as principled as one would like but ... you'd need to vote 3rd party for that. Not having a super PAC versus having one, yea that's principled.
Which of the candidates could give Putin a challenge on the judo mats?
I also reject the term feeble old codger. He is keeping up with a grueling campaign schedule, and he is connecting with millions of "young whippersnappers." razz, your characterization of him as unprincipled is exactly the opposite of how I see it, but I guess it depends on if your principles are based on what you want to see in the world vs making sure your party wins--or specifically, Clinton, but...
All kinds of polls show that a Sanders/Trump campaign would be a win for the Democrats, but right now, a Clinton/Trump campaign is very much on the fence, so you could say that he is principled on both counts (ideals + keeping his party in office). The independents who like Trump are the same ones who would have to decide between Trump and Sanders in a general election
I like to think a Caligula/Trump campaign would result in a Trump loss, but this awful year is teaching me to make no such pleasant assumptions.
I'm sure Mr. Sanders is a fine figure of a man. What are codgerly and feeble are his ideas. Dusty old Marxist notions that reached their peak of influence in the thirties, and were resuscitated in the sixties. Intoning the same ideas over and over like Cato the Elder insisting everybody can go to college for free if we only siphon a little gas from millionaires' yachts.
I don't think he cares any more for the electoral fortunes of the Democrats than he does for the Whigs.
I knew that I should have stopped at the comment about old codger.
I only felt that giving the opposition strong negative sound bytes is unprincipled. It won't help Sanders even if he wins the DEM nomination and can only help Trump. The unprincipled part IMHO is not knowing where to draw the line on this which makes me wonder if he knows how to.
In thinking about it further, I am projecting my values and who can say that they are right for any politician.
Says she, withdrawing discreetly from this conversation.
Ultralight
5-11-16, 5:28pm
Say you're soory! ;)
gimmethesimplelife
5-12-16, 10:05am
The Philippines??? Have you been there? The weather alone would make that a non-starter for mess
What's wrong with Mexico?The Phillipines does not require a great deal of assets to be a legal resident - Mexico requires more if you wish to be there legally. It all boils down to life being short - do I want quality of life or do I want to struggle in the insane hot mess the US has become? By now you'll know my answer. Rob
The Phillipines does not require a great deal of assets to be a legal resident - Mexico requires more if you wish to be there legally. It all boils down to life being short - do I want quality of life or do I want to struggle in the insane hot mess the US has become? By now you'll know my answer. Rob
You may want to check in with the Social Security Administration as to what benefits you (or your spouse) might ultimately be eligible for as a former US citizen living in the Philippines. Apparently that is governed by treaties that can be quite different on a country-by-country basis. A friend of mine who is a foreign national with a substantial work history in the US is doing some planning, and tells me it can get pretty complicated.
By now you'll know my answer. Rob
When do you leave?
gimmethesimplelife
5-12-16, 1:46pm
When do you leave?Bae....as I've stated numerous times, when my Mom is no longer here. Nothing new there. Rob
Ultralight
5-12-16, 1:47pm
You are a dedicated son.
gimmethesimplelife
5-12-16, 2:35pm
You are a dedicated son.Thank You. You are very kind to understand this. Rob
Teacher Terry
5-12-16, 3:12pm
I think it is awesome you still have your mom. I lost mine 7 years ago and think about her a lot. Enjoy your time with her:))
The Phillipines does not require a great deal of assets to be a legal resident - Mexico requires more if you wish to be there legally. It all boils down to life being short - do I want quality of life or do I want to struggle in the insane hot mess the US has become? By now you'll know my answer. Rob
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2016/05/09/3776587/duterte-elections/
If this article has merit I'm not so sure the Philippines sounds like such a great place right now.
gimmethesimplelife
5-12-16, 4:24pm
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2016/05/09/3776587/duterte-elections/
If this article has merit I'm not so sure the Philippines sounds like such a great place right now.I haven't read your article as I'm on a quick banquet serving lunch lull before reentering a hall to clear. If it's about Rodrigo Duterte, the recent president elect of the Phillipines, I'll say you have a point here and now. A very scary man. It remains to be seen how much of his agenda gets carried out and what his effects on the Phillipines will be. Also if the Australians there start fleeing I'll take note. Rob
I see PJ O'Rourke has decided to endorse Mrs. Clinton:
"I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises," O'Rourke said. "It's the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she's way behind in second place. She's wrong about absolutely everything, but she's wrong within normal parameters."
Ultralight
5-13-16, 11:25am
PJ is certainly part of the dwindling tribe of intellectual conservatives.
He has been on Wait! Wait! Don't Tell Me and he has actually made a few funny jokes on there!
Read Republican Party Reptile sometime.
iris lilies
5-13-16, 11:57am
PJ is certainly part of the dwindling tribe of intellectual conservatives.
He has been on Wait! Wait! Don't Tell Me and he has actually made a few funny jokes on there!
I think they write those jokes for the Wait Wait panelists.
catherine
5-13-16, 11:58am
I see PJ O'Rourke has decided to endorse Mrs. Clinton:
"I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises," O'Rourke said. "It's the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she's way behind in second place. She's wrong about absolutely everything, but she's wrong within normal parameters."
Based on your excerpt, I was compelled to go to the source (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/11/p-j-o-rourke-i-m-endorsing-hillary-clinton-the-devil-we-know.html).
Very funny, very well-written, and too much of it is too true. I LOVE the Mr. Grinch take-off! I only take issue with a couple of things.. but most particularly "Jimmy Carter in a pantsuit." Hillary is no Jimmy Carter, for better or worse. She'd do better than Carter on foreign policy, but she's nowhere near as principled. I also disagree with Reagan being the Second Coming, although of course I acknowledge that all conservatives see him that way.
And of course, I disagree with his characterization of Bernie as being "the Donald Trump for people still living in their parents' basements." (although OK, I admit it, I chuckled).
But I did enjoy the article.
Based on your excerpt, I was compelled to go to the source (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/11/p-j-o-rourke-i-m-endorsing-hillary-clinton-the-devil-we-know.html).
Very funny, very well-written, and too much of it is too true. I LOVE the Mr. Grinch take-off! I only take issue with a couple of things.. but most particularly "Jimmy Carter in a pantsuit." Hillary is no Jimmy Carter, for better or worse. She'd do better than Carter on foreign policy, but she's nowhere near as principled. I also disagree with Reagan being the Second Coming, although of course I acknowledge that all conservatives see him that way.
And of course, I disagree with his characterization of Bernie as being "the Donald Trump for people still living in their parents' basements." (although OK, I admit it, I chuckled).
But I did enjoy the article.
I've been a fan of O'Rourke for years. Holidays in Hell, The CEO of the Sofa, All the Trouble in the World.
I'm not sure if he's the one who said "If you were raised by Helicopter Parents, then the Sanders platform makes perfect sense to you."
Williamsmith
5-13-16, 12:40pm
Well, anyone who was born and raised in Toledo Ohio necessarily must have a sense of humor to survive.
I agree with every single thing he says about Hillary Clinton except that she is "less worse" than Donald. Donald is just a mere blowhard. Hillary puts her money where her mouth is.
And I take offense to his describing the electorate as possessed by a devil and suffering from mass psychosis. Had the Republican Party fielded any serious candidates, had they cared at all about the base of their party and not left it for dead, had they not done deals with the devil at every turn and been psychotic about their own comfortable DC existence....perhaps the electorate wouldn't have decided to eat the party leaders.
Enjoy your public hug with Hillary. Ewe.
catherine
5-13-16, 12:44pm
I've been a fan of O'Rourke for years. Holidays in Hell, The CEO of the Sofa, All the Trouble in the World.
I'm not sure if he's the one who said "If you were raised by Helicopter Parents, then the Sanders platform makes perfect sense to you."
Well, I am a boomer who was not raised by helicopter parents by a long shot. I have made my own way, take responsibility for my own actions, feel entitled to nothing, and feel responsible for my fellow man. And the Sanders Plan works for me. It benefits me, not because I can't afford the ridiculous $1500/month health insurance bill I am paying, but because I don't want my fellow man to be sick or die simply because he/she isn't hooked up to an employer with a healthcare plan. It benefits me, not because I don't have the brains to earn a living but because I feel a 40 hour paycheck should allow anyone to earn a decent living. It benefits me not because I'm against wealth but because I'm for logical checks and balances in an economic system that will ensure a flow of consumption and production that works for the most number of people. As Pope Francis said, "unfettered capitalism" results in vulnerable societies.
I paid for my kids' educations; I would hope that my grandchildren don't have to mortgage their futures because of the usury of Sallie Mae. I work my a$$ off each and every day, and I thank God that I'm not working my a$$ off only to still have to choose between dinner and a trip to the doctor.
Ultralight
5-13-16, 12:46pm
Dude.
The GOP fielded their best and brightest. I am not being sarcastic either.
Lyin' Ted, Florida Bush, Rubot, Mr. Boring from Ohio, The Surgeon.
Come on. This is the best of the GOP.
But I think it is less about candidates and more about ideas.
Even conservative/Republican workin' folks are getting hip to the fact that the GOP's economic policies don't do right by them.
Heck, even a few folks in Kansas got the memo on that. And we all know what's the matter with Kansas.
Ultralight
5-13-16, 12:48pm
My parents were not chopperin' in for nothin'!
And that is exactly why I supported The Bern.
Well, I am a boomer who was not raised by helicopter parents by a long shot. I have made my own way, take responsibility for my own actions, feel entitled to nothing, and feel responsible for my fellow man. And the Sanders Plan works for me. It benefits me, not because I can't afford the ridiculous $1500/month health insurance bill I am paying, but because I don't want my fellow man to be sick or die simply because he/she isn't hooked up to an employer with a healthcare plan.
and I thank God that I'm not working my a$$ off only to still have to choose between dinner and a trip to the doctor.
Yes, I think that the criticisms of the younger generation need to be tempered with a DEEP understanding that it we get much less for the same hours of work and have a generation on the edge of broke all the time. Logical checks and balances are necessary now, there was an understanding that supporting corporations would trickle down the wealth and they have not done that. So time for a change. If nothing else they should be ineligible for a bail out if their workers need to be on assistance to live or can't afford basic health care. If they can run a business that way without government help like we are asking our average person then great.
It is so painful to see my kids struggle when they have always worked, got great feedback from employers and aren't asking for anything special. On a monthly basis they struggle, skip health care, and I am on the edge but I would help if I could (and get politically active because we shouldn't be relying on the older generations to make up for the economy being so messed up)
had they not done deals with the devil at every turn and been psychotic about their own comfortable DC existence....perhaps the electorate wouldn't have decided to eat the party leaders.
.
As of the last reports from friends who have traveled there, the DC schools are crumbling, unsafe and not supported by all of this. It should be an embarrassment that the nations schools have schools with broken basic services like toilets and falling in ceilings. But it is easier to sell out the education system to 'reformers' who have no teaching creds at all.
Williamsmith
5-13-16, 1:08pm
As of the last reports from friends who have traveled there, the DC schools are crumbling, unsafe and not supported by all of this. It should be an embarrassment that the nations schools have schools with broken basic services like toilets and falling in ceilings. But it is easier to sell out the education system to 'reformers' who have no teaching creds at all.
Twenty years ago I went to a convention in Detroit. I drove. As soon as you entered Michigan you started seeing crumbling infrastructure and pot holes in the roads. It was a stark contrast coming out of Ohio. Even my area of Pennsylvania was in way better shape. Now, drive around the Great Lakes and you will see that everything is rusting and crumbling.
Pennsylvania did not pass a budget last year and they are headed for another impasse. All the school districts have had to borrow to keep open. So the interest is being heaped upon the tax payers as a result of politicians not doing their job. Nothing is being repaired. Pretty much everybody is fleeing to some other place or taking up residence in the ruins.
Well, I am a boomer who was not raised by helicopter parents by a long shot. I have made my own way, take responsibility for my own actions, feel entitled to nothing, and feel responsible for my fellow man. And the Sanders Plan works for me. It benefits me, not because I can't afford the ridiculous $1500/month health insurance bill I am paying, but because I don't want my fellow man to be sick or die simply because he/she isn't hooked up to an employer with a healthcare plan. It benefits me, not because I don't have the brains to earn a living but because I feel a 40 hour paycheck should allow anyone to earn a decent living. It benefits me not because I'm against wealth but because I'm for logical checks and balances in an economic system that will ensure a flow of consumption and production that works for the most number of people. As Pope Francis said, "unfettered capitalism" results in vulnerable societies.
I paid for my kids' educations; I would hope that my grandchildren don't have to mortgage their futures because of the usury of Sallie Mae. I work my a$$ off each and every day, and I thank God that I'm not working my a$$ off only to still have to choose between dinner and a trip to the doctor.
Ignoring the very real suffering out there would be cruel.
Promising to fix it with the economic equivalent of magic beans is crueler still. There simply aren't enough billionaires out there to dispossess.
Ultralight
5-13-16, 2:41pm
There simply aren't enough billionaires out there to dispossess.
Perhaps, but there are enough to get us a real good start! :devil:
Well, anyone who was born and raised in Toledo Ohio necessarily must have a sense of humor to survive.
I agree with every single thing he says about Hillary Clinton except that she is "less worse" than Donald. Donald is just a mere blowhard. Hillary puts her money where her mouth is.
And I take offense to his describing the electorate as possessed by a devil and suffering from mass psychosis. Had the Republican Party fielded any serious candidates, had they cared at all about the base of their party and not left it for dead, had they not done deals with the devil at every turn and been psychotic about their own comfortable DC existence....perhaps the electorate wouldn't have decided to eat the party leaders.
Enjoy your public hug with Hillary. Ewe.
Here's how I see it:
Clinton is promising more overweening government and truckles to tribal identity politics.
Trump is promising more overweening government and truckles to tribal identity politics. And he wants to speak for Republicans in doing so.
That makes Trump worse.
However, it does not follow from that that I would vote for Clinton. I think O'Rourke is wrong in that respect.
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