Practical strategies to cope with being alone?

[Ultralight]

After the fizzling-out of my most recent romance I was thinking about strategies for coping with being alone in the long term.

Now, I am not just talking about feeling lonesome. I am talking about the emotional, mental, logistical, financial, etc. issues that come with being alone/living alone for the long term.

Yesterday I was eating a big bite of baked salmon when it, just for a second, got caught in my throat. I could not inhale or exhale. I managed to cough it up. But had I begun to really choke, I could have died as there is no one to help me.

I welcome suggestions from you all about how to deal with the emotional, mental, logistical, financial, etc. issues of being alone long term.

As always: Snark is welcome, but I do want real ideas too!

[pinkytoe]

Even those of us with significant others imagine a time when our partner will no longer be there. I think about it a lot when I am trying to do something physical that my small hands just can't quite maneuver or when I wake up in the middle of the night and DH is not in the bed. I am thinking co-housing is a good way to have support when one is on their own but would like to feel not so alone. I am watching my MIL handle a life alone after sixty years with a mate now passed. It is just part of life for most of us to be alone at some point.

[iris lilies]

Even those of us with significant others imagine a time when our partner will no longer be there. I think about it a lot when I am trying to do something physical that my small hands just can't quite maneuver or when I wake up in the middle of the night and DH is not in the bed. I am thinking co-housing is a good way to have support when one is on their own but would like to feel not so alone. I am watching my MIL handle a life alone after sixty years with a mate now passed. It is just part of life for most of us to be alone at some point.
This is so true.

Also, it is good for our mental health to develop and keep up certain skills that our SO’s, if we had them, might be doing. I used to be very independant when single and gradually have allowed DH to take on tasks I would ordinarily do. My skills have atrophied in certain areas.

[dado potato]

There might be a nugget of insight in this 1,260 year-old poem of Li Po.

DRINKING ALONE WITH THE MOON
From a pot of wine among the flowers
I drank alone. There was no one with me --
Till, raising my cup, I asked the bright moon
To bring me my shadow and make us three.
Alas, the moon was unable to drink,
And my shadow tagged me vacantly;
But still for a while I had these friends
To cheer me through the end of spring...
I sang. The moon encouraged me.
I danced. My shadow tumbled after.
As long as I knew, we were boon companions.
And then I was drunk, and we lost one another.
... Shall goodwill ever be secure?
I watch the long road of the River of Stars.

[Yppej]

Unless someone is glued to your side 24/7 you could still choke on something and die. Is the other person never supposed to go to work, or the corner store, or anywhere else without you?

Once you hit a certain age (60 in my state) you can move into an elderly housing complex with some support services.

[Baldilocks]

If i remember correctly, this won't work for you. But I believe I am never alone. I believe God wants the same thing with us that he wanted with Adam and Eve. To walk with us in the garden. "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me." I also have a church family that will be there if at some point my family isn't.

[razz]

Loneness and solitude are different. Choking is a real wakeup call that I have faced as is tripping down my stairs. It seems to come down to facing one's fears and organizing solutions. A friend, counsellor at a shelter, once advised that she would rathe be alone than in a bad relationship.

What do I do? Senior groups are so depressing at times that I avoid them.

I live in a neighbourhood that includes all generations and greet them every day as I walk my dog. I see life expressed in so many ways. I get greetings waved from cars and doorways as I walk by. I know that each person I greet with warmth, I am giving her/him the gift of worth and validation that I am needing.

I am responsible for my mental health so - need to be outdoors daily, talk to someone every day, join a creative group, maintain my home in a desirable condition, plan my day or week, schedule time daily for metaphysical meditation and always watch my thinking. If the dark seems to be knocking at my mental door, I consciously count my blessings and things for which I am grateful and dismiss the invader. 'Pity parties' do try to invade periodically but I am getting much better at detecting and rejecting them.

Probably the most challenging is finding and acknowledging one's own worth and value. i realized fairly recently that another person never could do this for me. It is my responsibility, always has been. My response is that life is a precious gift - am I sharing my gift or hoarding it?

[goldensmom]

Even those of us with significant others imagine a time when our partner will no longer be there. I think about it a lot when I am trying to do something physical that my small hands just can't quite maneuver .....


This is so true.

Also, it is good for our mental health to develop and keep up certain skills that our SO’s, if we had them, might be doing. I used to be very independant when single and gradually have allowed DH to take on tasks I would ordinarily do. My skills have atrophied in certain areas.

I agree with both of the above. I have dogs for company and church for community. We own and operate a farm so I am sure I could continue with that as a single person. I think the main thing about being alone long term is to focus on things outside of yourself, be thankful for the material and non-material things you have and for me it is trust that God has everything worked out for me well ahead of anything that I may experience.

[SteveinMN]

After the fizzling-out of my most recent romance I was thinking about strategies for coping with being alone in the long term.
When my first wife and I divorced, one idea I had to be okay with was the possibility that I would never again be married or in a committed long-term relationship. That didn't preclude any relationship and there was no guarantee that a LTR would end up being that long-term. But I had to be okay with that.

I was. So, too (unbeknownst to me) was my current wife. She divorced her first husband when their kid was two and set in for almost two decades of single-parenthood. She dated here and there but no relationship lasted longer than 6-7 months until I appeared. My longest relationship before DW was three years.

Both of us kept busy with life. We both had careers which engaged us -- and sometimes demanded quite a lot of us. We both had friends and family with whom we could share dinners and holidays and movies and who could help out if we needed to move furniture or we needed a ride home from the repair shop. We reciprocated for those friends, too. Both of us volunteered about 8-10 hours a month, which exposed us to new people and experiences. We had other hobbies, too -- reading, antiquing, travel -- on which we spent what time we had left. We married not because we wanted someone around but because even the good lives we had were better with each other in it. Neither one of us ever regrets it.

Here's what I see (please correct me if I'm wrong): I see someone who isn't happy with his primary daily activity (his job) and really doesn't have enough burning passion to work at moving into another line of work. I see someone who is quite introverted and not willing at all to play the social game with others. I know you have a few very firm rules about who you want to even date in the hopes of forming a LTR. I don't read about friends; merely acquaintances. I may have missed posts about volunteering more than once in a while. I read about a dog and a fishing hobby and a burgeoning interest in travel, but that you don't/can't engage in those hobbies enough.

You live an ascetic life that doesn't seem to leave you engaged or happy. So what do you want to change about it?

[Rogar]

I’d take a hard look at the Four Noble Truths.

Have you ever considered intentional community or co-op living? Something that I’ve considered.

[JaneV2.0]

Unless someone is glued to your side 24/7 you could still choke on something and die. Is the other person never supposed to go to work, or the corner store, or anywhere else without you?

Once you hit a certain age (60 in my state) you can move into an elderly housing complex with some support services.

My godfather died just this way; my SO's brother also died a preventable death. In both cases, their housemate was not home. I think of this occasionally (more so than I used to :( ) and keep my cell close at hand.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Yea have a cell phone on you and you can call 911, doesn't even have to be a smart phone for that. I often don't have an active cell (forget to pay the prepaid bill etc.) on me, so I don't really do this myself, but if you are worried it makes sense.

Most women will outlive their male partners (exacerbated if they marry older, but even if they don't women statistically live longer, there are of course many exceptions as well where the woman dies sooner, but statistically). So I think a lot of women know they will be facing life alone at some point.

I think you are as well positioned to do well financially as just about anyone is, yes there is a greater financial risk in being single, but I don't' think it really applies to you. I know Suzie Orman has written on taking care of oneself financially as a woman (which is much higher risk or poverty statistically than being a single man), so it is a plenty relevant topic for single women, but maybe some of it would apply to single men as well - haven't read it). But I think you personally are about as stable as anyone could be financially (I realize the wind is not at the middle classes back in general these days but given that ..). Stable government job, that will pay off loans as long as you can keep the job (sure there is some risk of this not working out, having to take a private sector job, and being stuck with loans), if you plan to stay where you are then likely ability to buy property where you live as it's not some ridiculous coastal bubble (ability to retire in Eucador or something if you DON'T plan to stay where you are), don't know if you have a pension but if so congrats as noone does these days, ability to save long term for retirement in retirement vehicles. I mean really short of actually being rich, that's as much security as anyone can achieve these days, married or single. There can be some short term economic security in being partnered (like it would prevent homelessness if one couldn't find work if that was a fear maybe - so maybe for the most extreme destitution - but I don't think it really goes much further than that, as economic insecurity is widespread these days - both of you might be fairly economically insecure and in fact with a government job you are likely to be the more economically secure partner in the relationship).

Socially whether or not having lots of non-partnership relationships suffices really depends on one's personality. For some people it works well, for others it doesn't work particularly well (but for everyone is better than total isolation if they don't have a partner).

[Simplemind]

When you are alone there is always the good old Heimlich maneuver using the back of a chair. I know that I will want/need connection if my husband goes before me. I will want co-housing or intentional community.

[ToomuchStuff]

As simplemind said, there is the self Heimlich maneuver.
The word cope, makes me wonder about your emotional status. As for the financial aspect, the first and most important step, is to get/be/stay out of debt. However you have argued against that and have done the same thing expecting a different result (more schooling). That in itself is a lot of baggage.
The closest I came to being married, was proposing to a gal who responded with she wanted to be a kept woman. She knows some of my friends/connections and thought I would be a stepping stone up. I have had several married friends say they were jealous of my being single, and single friends who said they were jealous of those that were married. You need to get happy and comfortable with yourself first. Stop trying to change others to fix you.

Not sure what logistical issues your dealing with as a minimalist, as you generally shouldn't be needing help moving furniture or building things. (especially as a renter)
You might need a chair, or counter for the Heimlich though.
I've had to get used to doing a lot (most things) myself. With older friends growing up, so much was at different stages. While I was the second one to buy a home, most of my friends were renting, getting married, and having kids. One day, I may again have a couch, but I will have to design it, as I have to be able to move it myself. Now so many friends are in different states, others travel, and most of those locally, are older and with their own medical issues, most of the help I obtain is by those in their 70's.

Welcome to life.

[dado potato]

I agree with Simplemind on the possibilities of intergenerational connected living in intentional communities and co-housing. If I were single again, I would scout out two developments in Colorado.
Nyland CoHousing, Lafayette (6 miles east of Boulder) 42 units.
Hartwood CoHousing, (3 miles NW of Bayfield) 24 units.

In the mean time I intend to keep working on Non-Violent Communicaton (NVC). NVC is beneficial whether I am first or second to pass. In adapting to Co-housing after owning a single-family home, NVC skills would be useful (for anybody, but especially for a person of riper years, who has a tendency to make friends more slowly than when a young fellow).

[Lainey]

UL,
have you considered becoming a Big Brother? I think you have a lot of empathy and knowledge that a boy would really benefit from, aside from them enjoying the company of an older male they could be pals with. And watching them blossom under your guidance could be very life-affirming.

[Ultralight]

Unless someone is glued to your side 24/7 you could still choke on something and die. Is the other person never supposed to go to work, or the corner store, or anywhere else without you?

Think about the odds here. Okay, sure. 24/7 is not realistic. Heck, I probably would not want that. I like solitude sometimes (markedly more than most people).

But let's say it is 8/7. This reduces my odds of being alone when I choke on my salmon fillet.

Also: I like be there for someone else too. It feels good to help someone else feel and be more secure.

[Ultralight]

If i remember correctly, this won't work for you. But I believe I am never alone. I believe God wants the same thing with us that he wanted with Adam and Eve. To walk with us in the garden. "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me." I also have a church family that will be there if at some point my family isn't.

The God option is not on the table. My brain just does not work that way. But thank you, I know your suggestion comes from a good place and I appreciate that.

[Ultralight]

Loneness and solitude are different. Choking is a real wakeup call that I have faced as is tripping down my stairs. It seems to come down to facing one's fears and organizing solutions. A friend, counsellor at a shelter, once advised that she would rathe be alone than in a bad relationship.

What do I do? Senior groups are so depressing at times that I avoid them.

I live in a neighbourhood that includes all generations and greet them every day as I walk my dog. I see life expressed in so many ways. I get greetings waved from cars and doorways as I walk by. I know that each person I greet with warmth, I am giving her/him the gift of worth and validation that I am needing.

I am responsible for my mental health so - need to be outdoors daily, talk to someone every day, join a creative group, maintain my home in a desirable condition, plan my day or week, schedule time daily for metaphysical meditation and always watch my thinking. If the dark seems to be knocking at my mental door, I consciously count my blessings and things for which I am grateful and dismiss the invader. 'Pity parties' do try to invade periodically but I am getting much better at detecting and rejecting them.

Probably the most challenging is finding and acknowledging one's own worth and value. i realized fairly recently that another person never could do this for me. It is my responsibility, always has been. My response is that life is a precious gift - am I sharing my gift or hoarding it?

Very interesting thoughts here. Much to consider...

[Ultralight]

Steve: Thank you for the thoughtful responses and for sharing your experiences. Let me ask some follow-ups...


When my first wife and I divorced, one idea I had to be okay with was the possibility that I would never again be married or in a committed long-term relationship. That didn't preclude any relationship and there was no guarantee that a LTR would end up being that long-term. But I had to be okay with that.

How did you reach this state of mind?


I was. So, too (unbeknownst to me) was my current wife. She divorced her first husband when their kid was two and set in for almost two decades of single-parenthood. She dated here and there but no relationship lasted longer than 6-7 months until I appeared. My longest relationship before DW was three years.

Can you tell me how you all met and how courtship went in the beginning?


Both of us kept busy with life. We both had careers which engaged us -- and sometimes demanded quite a lot of us. We both had friends and family with whom we could share dinners and holidays and movies and who could help out if we needed to move furniture or we needed a ride home from the repair shop. We reciprocated for those friends, too. Both of us volunteered about 8-10 hours a month, which exposed us to new people and experiences. We had other hobbies, too -- reading, antiquing, travel -- on which we spent what time we had left. We married not because we wanted someone around but because even the good lives we had were better with each other in it. Neither one of us ever regrets it.

I have hobbies -- fishing in the spring (though not as much as I used to), plenty of reading, watching foreign films, trying new ethnic restaurants, more reading, etc.

My family consists mostly of my sister and BIL. But they have a one year old and their own lives -- so their interactions with me are limited. I go over there at least once a week for a half hour or hour visit. They love Harlan, so I take him over there too.

But my relationship with my parents is very troubled.

My platonic friendships have all fizzled out over the years -- moving to different places, lifestyle changes, relationship changes, etc. These things take a toll on friendships from childhood and friendships from college.

I don't have even one friend I can really count on. The friends I have are more like acquaintances who I get dinner with once a month.


Here's what I see (please correct me if I'm wrong): I see someone who isn't happy with his primary daily activity (his job) and really doesn't have enough burning passion to work at moving into another line of work. I see someone who is quite introverted and not willing at all to play the social game with others. I know you have a few very firm rules about who you want to even date in the hopes of forming a LTR. I don't read about friends; merely acquaintances. I may have missed posts about volunteering more than once in a while. I read about a dog and a fishing hobby and a burgeoning interest in travel, but that you don't/can't engage in those hobbies enough.

You are mostly right above. But I am relentlessly social. I go to atheist dinners, potlucks, discussions, canoeing trips, bike rides, and so forth. I volunteer at a support group for people who have left cults and fundamentalist religions. I volunteered for quite a while at a couple bike co-ops.

But I cannot seem to make a single close friend.


You live an ascetic life that doesn't seem to leave you engaged or happy. So what do you want to change about it?

Minimalism made me happier -- noticeably. This is a big reason I won't give it up.

[Ultralight]

I’d take a hard look at the Four Noble Truths.

Please share. :)


Have you ever considered intentional community or co-op living? Something that I’ve considered.

Yes, and for a year or so I met regularly with a group of folks who were also interested in forming an intentional community or a co-op.

No one could get on the same page. There were numerous people with unrealistic pie-in-the-sky ideas about building huge eco-villages. There were others who had more reasonable ideas -- like co-housing with shared meals and chores and some shared resources. But even getting these folks on the same page was hard! Many of them had totally insufferable personalities (perhaps others felt this way of me). But I was advocating for reasonable arrangements and compromises that would work for most people. But apparently "most people" were not in that group. haha

We looked at old apartment buildings, big houses that couple be revamped into communes, etc. in the city and surrounding it. We looked at plots of land for new building.

After 14 or so months the whole thing fizzled out. No one even go so much as a new roommate.

[iris lilies]

Think about the odds here. Okay, sure. 24/7 is not realistic. Heck, I probably would not want that. I like solitude sometimes (markedly more than most people).

But let's say it is 8/7. This reduces my odds of being alone when I choke on my salmon fillet.

Also: I like be there for someone else too. It feels good to help someone else feel and be more secure.

A few years ago DH was choking on somethIng and he had to
heimleich himself since my efforts were fruitless.

When you get that companion, make sure she is competent.

[Ultralight]

When you are alone there is always the good old Heimlich maneuver using the back of a chair.
Practicing this right now!

[Ultralight]

UL,
have you considered becoming a Big Brother? I think you have a lot of empathy and knowledge that a boy would really benefit from, aside from them enjoying the company of an older male they could be pals with. And watching them blossom under your guidance could be very life-affirming.

I am not good with kids at all. I have an acquaintance who did this for many years. He really liked it. But he is a far different person than I am.

[iris lilies]

UL, it is too bad that fishing is a fairly limited hobby, ”limited” meaning you need a body of water to engage in it, that is limiting.

If you were a gardener you could expand that interest to all sorts of volunteer and hobby groups, there is limitless opportunities in gardening.

My theory about forming close friendships is that you need to have a core interest that attracts a lot of people, and then you work within the interest or organization to further its goals and in that role,you make friends along the way and you hook up with people who share your values, not only that core value, but secondary ones. Hey, you also make enemies! Haha, but that is human nature.

That is why “church” is so important to many people, that is their social bonding experience. Worship of God is their core purpose and all of the church activities around it build friendships.

Our neighborhood holds most all of our friends because our core passion was furthering this neighborhood, restoring old houses and making the City do right by us and etc. In that work we were on the board, committees, etc and worked with others to further these goals.

We also have secondary friends in 1) dog rescue. 2) plant societies and garden clubs, but most of these latter folks are
acquaintances.

I have recently pondered why my brother and
I both have a very strong social network. He, living in the same town where we grew up, married someone very gregarious and they have a wide circle of friends that started with his high school buddies. It has expanded of course over decades, but they are the social core of their friends, many single. It is not a child centered group of friends since few have children.

It is kind of a surprise that he and I are busy socially, as I am not very needy when it comes to human interaction. Yet, I do have interests about which I am passionate and they last decades, they are in my DNA: old houses, bulldogs, flower gardeneing.

I watched my parents sort of flit from interest to interest, especially in their old age, and other than lawn maintenance and tree worship, I am not sure my father had consistent interests. My mother was flighty, and I remember her participation in one women's group that seemed to lack a core purpose. I never really understood what their purpose was. (PEO for anyone familiar with that.j I never u derstood the core purpose of the “lodges” that dotted small town Iowa.

wow, this is a long ramble.

My observation about Columbus is that if I lived there I would be all over German Village, working in their garden club and neighborhood association and etc. God, that place is fabulous! And also, expensive, yowza.

[rosarugosa]

UL: I don't click with children either, but I really enjoyed supervising high school interns at work (I supervised 53 of them over 20 years). Perhaps you could be a big brother to a teenager? I think teens are more like adults in training, and children are like aliens from another planet. :~)
I do also think it's worth revisiting the idea of criteria for a partner. DH and I first fell for each other when he was 12 and I was 15, so our criteria was probably along the lines of "male" and "female." We really evolved together, and so are on the same page about most things, if not all. I wouldn't think you would be happy with someone who was grossly materialistic, but maybe you could do well with someone more mainstream, and you might influence each other and both shift a bit in your ideas. You could have a "man cave" and keep it empty. ;) I think religion could be harder because I myself cannot fully respect the mind of a religious person (I see them as essentially irrational in a fundamental way). But it works for IL and her DH, so maybe keeping an open mind to at least agnostics, or not terribly observant believers (you obviously will avoid those who are passionate about converting others).
The movie we watched yesterday, "The Lobster" had me thinking a lot about this thread. There was an expectation that you needed to partner with someone who shared a "defining characteristic" with you such as being prone to nosebleeds, walking with a limp, or is nearsighted. Those are obviously silly, but I think a point was being made, and that we are poorly served by going around with a strict list of requirements that could cause one to rule out someone who could have been the great love of their life.

[razz]

IL, has pretty much expressed my experience. I would add one more aspect. I have faced challenges of all sorts over my life. In each case, someone, often a stranger, has helped me work my way through them. Some of the help was spiritual support through church, other times a simple friendly hug when needed, sometimes just listening to me with thoughtful attention and empathy and reminding me of my strengths and sometimes simply making me feel cherished. At no point, ever, was sex involved, BTW, as that seems to be important to you.

So, now I look for opportunities to practice what I have learned from each of these dear people and pay it forward loving others and offering aid where possible and appropriate. It can be on the street walking my dog, in my art group, playing cards at community centres, etc. One acquaintance was standing totally still at a mall looking confused in a familiar setting. Her DH had passed on suddenly and unexpectedly 6 weeks earlier. Her mind had gone totally blank with a sense of loss so profound. I walked over and just put my arms around her, protecting her until she recovered enough emotionally to carry on. She is now a dear friend. People need to feel valued and worthy, not judged.
UL, give of your heart at the moment without concern for the long-term connection.

[SteveinMN]

Steve:

How did you reach this state of mind [about the possibility that I would never again be married or in a committed long-term relationship]?
Partly reality: I know more than a couple of people who never married or had very long LTRs. Partly recognizing that I married my first wife more out of loving the idea of being married than out of loving her. Perhaps similarly, I had a couple of friends/acquaintances who felt they were not able to live alone and who married serially and often. I was not going to make those mistakes.

I had spent a lot of time thinking about what I needed and wanted out of my primary relationship. Joint counseling indicated that we wouldn't get there in my first marriage. So we divorced. That analysis, though, became my template for thinking about future relationships. And it was clear to me that I might not ever meet someone who would have the non-negotiables and enough of the negotiables. (BTW, no illusions here on how well I would check off someone else's boxes.)


Can you tell me how you all met and how courtship went in the beginning?
Future-DW and I were busy with work, family, social events, volunteering, ... But work got busier (more overtime), family stuff started taking more time, and some activities (for example, volunteering where the crowd was pretty much the same people) meant it was getting harder to be free to meet new people when they were around.

So each of us signed up for an on-line match service. It was easy to sit over a cup of coffee at 6:30 am or 10:30 at night paging through personals. We found each other, communicated a bit on-line, and decided to meet face-to-face for coffee. It went well. She invited me to a concert she was going to in a few days. I went and had a good time, there, too. We set more dates, started writing emails (this before texting was "a thing"), and contact just got more and more frequent. After a few months we decided to go exclusive. I'd say we both decided marriage was our goal before our first year together ended, but it took longer to make it formal. We were in no rush.


I have hobbies [snip; descriptions of hobbies and familial relationships]

My platonic friendships have all fizzled out over the years -- moving to different places, lifestyle changes, relationship changes, etc. These things take a toll on friendships from childhood and friendships from college.

I don't have even one friend I can really count on. The friends I have are more like acquaintances who I get dinner with once a month.

[description of social activities]
You are mostly right above. But I am relentlessly social. I go to atheist dinners, potlucks, discussions, canoeing trips, bike rides, and so forth. I volunteer at a support group for people who have left cults and fundamentalist religions. I volunteered for quite a while at a couple bike co-ops.

But I cannot seem to make a single close friend.
My apologies for missing posts in which you mentioned your social activities. That does make a difference; you are meeting people.

I've moved around a lot in my life. I have not kept track of anyone from high school or college. There are few people I've kept up with from previous employers. I lost some friends through the divorce; I lost two pals to death (from unchecked medical conditions). So I get not having lots of friends (not that I want lots of close friends).

I learned through the divorce that it's better to be alone than wish you were. I have no problem being my own good company. Yet I've made many friends -- a few quite close friends -- over the years. Some I met through work, some have been friends of DW's for years, some were met through volunteer opportunities. I'm quite introverted but I'm pretty fearless about meeting new people (or, in days past, asking women for dates). Not everyone gets to the inner circle, though, and that’s fine with me.

So what do you think is the show-stopper here? Do you see a pattern in how you form relationships with others that just isn't sustainable over the long term? And, if the desire for very close friendship or even an LTR/marriage is strong enough, what are you willing to change (compromise on) to help make that happen?

[Ultralight]

One practical strategy I had was this:

I always keep Harlan's water bowl very full, and it is a pretty big bowl.
This way, if something happens to me, he has several days of water. This should buy him enough time to be rescued by my sister, for instance.

[Ultralight]

UL: I don't click with children either, but I really enjoyed supervising high school interns at work (I supervised 53 of them over 20 years). Perhaps you could be a big brother to a teenager? I think teens are more like adults in training, and children are like aliens from another planet. :~)
I do also think it's worth revisiting the idea of criteria for a partner. DH and I first fell for each other when he was 12 and I was 15, so our criteria was probably along the lines of "male" and "female." We really evolved together, and so are on the same page about most things, if not all. I wouldn't think you would be happy with someone who was grossly materialistic, but maybe you could do well with someone more mainstream, and you might influence each other and both shift a bit in your ideas. You could have a "man cave" and keep it empty. ;) I think religion could be harder because I myself cannot fully respect the mind of a religious person (I see them as essentially irrational in a fundamental way). But it works for IL and her DH, so maybe keeping an open mind to at least agnostics, or not terribly observant believers (you obviously will avoid those who are passionate about converting others).
The movie we watched yesterday, "The Lobster" had me thinking a lot about this thread. There was an expectation that you needed to partner with someone who shared a "defining characteristic" with you such as being prone to nosebleeds, walking with a limp, or is nearsighted. Those are obviously silly, but I think a point was being made, and that we are poorly served by going around with a strict list of requirements that could cause one to rule out someone who could have been the great love of their life.

I tutored at-risk teens in college as part of an after school program. It was not my cup of tea either.

I am much more open to dating a religious person than a clutter bug.

[Ultralight]

So what do you think is the show-stopper here? Do you see a pattern in how you form relationships with others that just isn't sustainable over the long term? And, if the desire for very close friendship or even an LTR/marriage is strong enough, what are you willing to change (compromise on) to help make that happen?

Lots of intriguing insights in your full reply. I am glad to here things went well for you and your wife, especially since it was online.

The show-stopper is usually me not wanting kids. Minimalism is another one, but that is usually after finding someone who does not want kids or who is willing to give up their plan to have kids in order to have a life partner (this is more common of women in their late 30s as they feel the writing is on the wall and they should take what they can get).

[Ultralight]

My theory about forming close friendships is that you need to have a core interest that attracts a lot of people, and then you work within the interest or organization to further its goals and in that role,you make friends along the way and you hook up with people who share your values, not only that core value, but secondary ones.



I agree with you. I think that this is a reason that atheism in an of itself has not created any real friendships. Atheism is merely a lack of belief, though many atheists share certain cultural affinities (left-leaning politics, Star Trek, Dr. Who, etc.), it is not enough of a glue to stick friends together.

I see others with friends. A guy a work has a fantasy football league. He and his friends live for this game! They drink and eat and socialize all around this activity.
Another coworker is a rock climber. She has lots of friends she climbs with. They even take trips to other places to climb in the wild. She actually has two big sets of friends because she skydives too, and has a tight-knit group of skydivers she is friends with.

I have thought about taking up some hobby in the hopes that I would make friends. But no social hobby speaks to me...

[Yppej]

But my relationship with my parents is very troubled.



Here is the root of the problem. Have you gone for counseling?

As Iyanla says, to see who you are today look at your foundation (family of origin).

[Ultralight]

Here is the root of the problem. Have you gone for counseling?

I went for 4 years.


As Iyanla says, to see who you are today look at your foundation (family of origin). Tell me more.

[Yppej]

You learn how to be a man by how your father behaves. You learn how to be in a relationship by how your parents interact with their significant others. Patterns repeat themselves unless you discover them and actively work to change them.

Were either of your parents judgmental? Hard to please? Did they suffer from diagnosed or undiagnosed anxiety disorders that led them to have rigid thinking? Were they emotionally absent or afraid of commitments? Did your father feel that the main thing he could contribute to a relationship is a paycheck?

[Ultralight]

You learn how to be a man by how your father behaves. You learn how to be in a relationship by how your parents interact with their significant others. Patterns repeat themselves unless you discover them and actively work to change them.

Were either of your parents judgmental? Hard to please? Did they suffer from diagnosed or undiagnosed anxiety disorders that led them to have rigid thinking? Were they emotionally absent or afraid of commitments? Did your father feel that the main thing he could contribute to a relationship is a paycheck?

My parents have been married since 1968. They were high school sweethearts.

Sure, I guess my parents are judgmental. More so than other people? I don't know.

My mom has really bad anxiety and depression. My dad has had some really bad bouts of depression too.

My dad was not especially emotional, but he certainly was not a paycheck dad. He taught me to fish, took me to martial arts classes, and we watched Nova and Star Trek together.

[Yppej]

You have inherited the anxiety. Anxiety disorders are characterized by rigid thinking such as I can only own 200 objects. It has also led to unrealistic expectations in a partner.

You have a tendency towards depression. You have low self-esteem and have said the only reason a woman would want you is for your paycheck or to support her children from a previous relationship.

It's too bad the 4 years of counseling did not lead you to a point where you can be happy. Maybe medication would help.

[Ultralight]

You have inherited the anxiety. Anxiety disorders are characterized by rigid thinking such as I can only own 200 objects. It has also led to unrealistic expectations in a partner.

I may have inherited it, or maybe I learned it; or maybe both.

Uh... actually my click-point is somewhere between 150 and 250. 200 is a good number though. A lot of it depends on hobbies or if I am living alone, and so forth.

Are my expectations really all that unrealistic?


You have a tendency towards depression. You have low self-esteem and have said the only reason a woman would want you is for your paycheck or to support her children from a previous relationship.

I have been depressed since the summer of 1979. Low self-esteem? I dunno about that. I would say it is more average or reasonable levels of self-esteem. I know I am a fairly bright guy -- well-read, slightly above average sense of humor, and I have accomplished a handful of things in life.


It's too bad the 4 years of counseling did not lead you to a point where you can be happy. Maybe medication would help.

At this juncture I am still quite against medication.

[Tradd]

I agree with you. I think that this is a reason that atheism in an of itself has not created any real friendships. Atheism is merely a lack of belief, though many atheists share certain cultural affinities (left-leaning politics, Star Trek, Dr. Who, etc.), it is not enough of a glue to stick friends together.

I see others with friends. A guy a work has a fantasy football league. He and his friends live for this game! They drink and eat and socialize all around this activity.
Another coworker is a rock climber. She has lots of friends she climbs with. They even take trips to other places to climb in the wild. She actually has two big sets of friends because she skydives too, and has a tight-knit group of skydivers she is friends with.

I have thought about taking up some hobby in the hopes that I would make friends. But no social hobby speaks to me...

I scuba dive. I'm quite passionate about it and also work hard at it. My social circle has expanded in a major way. A lot of stuff feeds into diving. I'm a history buff and have been very into Great Lakes shipwrecks for a quarter-century. I read a lot about the topic. I dive some of the wrecks I've read about (and will do others as I advance and get more training). In order to dive, I needed to be more fit, and I *really* need to be in be shape. I started off swimming 350 yards a year ago today, going twice a week. As of today, I'm doing 2000 yards (more than a mile) at least 3 times a week, and doing some light weights at home. I'm also doing pool dives once a month over the winter (3 hour sessions) and working my butt off on certain things. I got past a number of fears to do diving.

I took this up a year ago in October at the age of 47. Friends continue to be astonished. I'm much more active than I have ever been. I feel great. I'm single with no guy and no prospects of a guy. I'm fine with it. In fact, unless a guy was a diver, I wouldn't want to date him, as he would probably not appreciate how much I dive from April through October. It's one of the best things I've ever done for myself.

Have you nothing like this?

Diving is not a cheap hobby, and it's very gear intensive.

[Ultralight]

I scuba dive. I'm quite passionate about it and also work hard at it. My social circle has expanded in a major way. A lot of stuff feeds into diving. I'm a history buff and have been very into Great Lakes shipwrecks for a quarter-century. I read a lot about the topic. I dive some of the wrecks I've read about (and will do others as I advance and get more training). In order to dive, I needed to be more fit, and I *really* need to be in be shape. I started off swimming 350 yards a year ago today, going twice a week. As of today, I'm doing 2000 yards (more than a mile) at least 3 times a week, and doing some light weights at home. I'm also doing pool dives once a month over the winter (3 hour sessions) and working my butt off on certain things. I got past a number of fears to do diving.

I took this up a year ago in October at the age of 47. Friends continue to be astonished. I'm much more active than I have ever been. I feel great. I'm single with no guy and no prospects of a guy. I'm fine with it. In fact, unless a guy was a diver, I wouldn't want to date him, as he would probably not appreciate how much I dive from April through October. It's one of the best things I've ever done for myself.

Have you nothing like this?

Diving is not a cheap hobby, and it's very gear intensive.

This is really great! I am very glad to hear you have found this.

My father was a diver and made many trips to Florida to go diving. He loved it and was really into it for about 15 or so years.

I don't have anything like what scuba is to you.

[frugal-one]

You have inherited the anxiety. Anxiety disorders are characterized by rigid thinking such as I can only own 200 objects. It has also led to unrealistic expectations in a partner.

You have a tendency towards depression. You have low self-esteem and have said the only reason a woman would want you is for your paycheck or to support her children from a previous relationship.

It's too bad the 4 years of counseling did not lead you to a point where you can be happy. Maybe medication would help.

WOW!!!!! This is an over the top post. I would totally disregard this. How dare this person judge or diagnose you based on what you have written! What degree do they hold or what makes them the expert? I would be insulted!

[Yppej]

If despite years of efforts I could not be happy or sustain a relationship I'd be thinking of a way to bump up my serotonin levels.

I think it is a practical strategy to cope with being alone (often used with the elderly once they live alone, among other populations). Frugal-one, the OP has asked for advice. What are your suggestions? Doing the same thing he has been doing will not produce different results, and he is stuck and unable to change his patterns with women despite SteveinMN and others suggesting self-analysis and change.

And UL acknowledged my diagnoses of anxiety and depression are correct. Untreated these conditions could worsen. Already he feels each failed relationship has chipped away at him. Have you been reading his posts all along? How would you feel if he got worse and medication could have helped and no one suggested it?

No I am not a professional in his state and I will not be prescribing it. And he probably will never take it anyways because that would mean giving up control, and anxiety is about fear of a loss of control.

[creaker]

I volunteer - a lot. Actually most of my current friendships were made through volunteering.

I think "alone" is something completely different than "lonely". I spend a fair amount of time alone, but I rarely ever feel lonely.

[iris lilies]

WOW!!!!! This is an over the top post. I would totally disregard this. How dare this person judge or diagnose you based on what you have written! What degree do they hold or what makes them the expert? I would be insulted!

UL takes criticism in stride ESPECIALLY when it is meant to be helpful.

Jeppy, I hadnt made the connection between minimalist thinking and rigid thinking, but I certainly understand how a lot of physical objects in one’s environment can make one anxious. This is the time of year where crap enters our homes at an unprecedented rate and it makes me anxious in the social sense, not the clinical sense.

Aw UL, I am sorry you are suffering. i think you are a great dude and I hope you find a path to make your life more enjoyable. Notice I did not say “hope you find someone to make your life more enjoyable” because it is more than a person you need in your life.

[pinkytoe]

Due to heredity or childhood environment, I am an anxious person and can imagine all sorts of worrisome scenarios about myself if I go there. I also obsess on things. One thing I have noted about myself and other anxious personalities is that we can become (or are) totally self-absorbed. It takes continual effort to stay outer-directed and lessen most of those unpleasant thoughts, ie loneliness, fear, worry etc. Continue to try and reframe situations so they don't seem so awful. Perhaps a room-mate situation would make you feel less lonesome? You aren't an old man yet prone to illness and falls, so to worry about that now seems not worth the anguish.

[rosarugosa]

What about a travel club? You seem pretty passionate about travel.
I know a couple of people who found their mates on cruises.

[SteveinMN]

In reading the posts since the last time I posted on this thread, I've come up with some more questions.

- What is the essential difference between scuba-diving, rock-climbing, diving, and fishing as far as sociability? Each can be done individually or in groups. Certainly there should be a circle of fishing enthusiasts around Columbus. If a group is what you want.

- I don't quite understand being "quite against medication" to address your depression. There are ways to increase serotonin levels without reaching for a prescription pad. But they can go only so far. If I were diabetic, diet and exercise might be enough to manage my diabetes. But if they weren't, what do I gain by being "quite against insulin"? And if taking insulin stabilized your physical condition long enough to let you address sub-symptoms (like excess weight or a lack of energy to exercise) and didn't have dramatic side effects, why wouldn't you want to take it?

- Can there be a solid long-term relationship if you're what women in their late 30s "take [because it's] what they can get"? (btw, that's a low-self-esteem answer)

- Is Columbus big enough to handle a person of your interests? Seriously. Might you do better in a suburb of NYC or in Seattle or in Austin, Texas?


As Yppej pointed out, until you choose to change things, your results will stay the same. The changes do not have to be binary: "I'm no longer a minamalist! Bring on the Laura Ashley décor!" Counting 200 items is a convenient way to measure your minimalism. But I don't think you'd have to turn in your Minimalist Card (TM) if you took up with someone who had 350 items in her possession (hint: don't count them in her presence ;) ). This stance is a little harder to take with kids, though you might consider widening your potential-mate field to someone in her early 40s whose kids are soon to leave the nest (perhaps you already have). Unless the issue really is the tie a mother will have to her kids for the rest of their lives, under her roof or not...

[Gardenarian]

Hi ultralight,

Just curious - do you know what your Myers-Briggs type is?

[Teacher Terry]

There are many causes of anxiety. YOu may or may not inherit from your parents. You can develop it at any age due to hormones such as menopause or due to events in your life. Taking meds is an individual decision but it has helped many people for the better. Yes if you are serious about change you can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results. People only change when the pain of staying the same is greater then the pain of changing.

[frugal-one]

If despite years of efforts I could not be happy or sustain a relationship I'd be thinking of a way to bump up my serotonin levels.

I think it is a practical strategy to cope with being alone (often used with the elderly once they live alone, among other populations). Frugal-one, the OP has asked for advice. What are your suggestions? Doing the same thing he has been doing will not produce different results, and he is stuck and unable to change his patterns with women despite SteveinMN and others suggesting self-analysis and change.

And UL acknowledged my diagnoses of anxiety and depression are correct. Untreated these conditions could worsen. Already he feels each failed relationship has chipped away at him. Have you been reading his posts all along? How would you feel if he got worse and medication could have helped and no one suggested it?

No I am not a professional in his state and I will not be prescribing it. And he probably will never take it anyways because that would mean giving up control, and anxiety is about fear of a loss of control.

UL asked for suggestions, NOT a diagnosis ... of which you are admittedly unqualified. I think UL is wise and will figure this out. Perhaps, others here have given him the impetus to figure out what he needs and wants.

[Ultralight]

WOW!!!!! This is an over the top post. I would totally disregard this. How dare this person judge or diagnose you based on what you have written! What degree do they hold or what makes them the expert? I would be insulted!

Don't worry. I take it with a grain of salt.

[Ultralight]

If despite years of efforts I could not be happy or sustain a relationship I'd be thinking of a way to bump up my serotonin levels.

I think it is a practical strategy to cope with being alone (often used with the elderly once they live alone, among other populations). Frugal-one, the OP has asked for advice. What are your suggestions? Doing the same thing he has been doing will not produce different results, and he is stuck and unable to change his patterns with women despite SteveinMN and others suggesting self-analysis and change.

And UL acknowledged my diagnoses of anxiety and depression are correct. Untreated these conditions could worsen. Already he feels each failed relationship has chipped away at him. Have you been reading his posts all along? How would you feel if he got worse and medication could have helped and no one suggested it?

No I am not a professional in his state and I will not be prescribing it. And he probably will never take it anyways because that would mean giving up control, and anxiety is about fear of a loss of control.

Perhaps modernity is the cause of my purportedly low serotonin. ;)

No, I am opposed to taking "meds" because I think that the causes of my anxiety and depression are almost entirely external. Why treat me when my environment is the cause?

[Ultralight]

People only change when the pain of staying the same is greater then the pain of changing.
I essentially agree.

[Ultralight]

Hi ultralight,

Just curious - do you know what your Myers-Briggs type is?

INFJ.

Yours?

[Ultralight]

- What is the essential difference between scuba-diving, rock-climbing, diving, and fishing as far as sociability? Each can be done individually or in groups. Certainly there should be a circle of fishing enthusiasts around Columbus. If a group is what you want.

Well, to be honest, I have met folks out fishing and they are often not the type whose personalities jive with mine (or vice versa!).

But the whole Scuba Idea has merit, like as a general principal. Don't you think?


- I don't quite understand being "quite against medication" to address your depression. There are ways to increase serotonin levels without reaching for a prescription pad. But they can go only so far. If I were diabetic, diet and exercise might be enough to manage my diabetes. But if they weren't, what do I gain by being "quite against insulin"? And if taking insulin stabilized your physical condition long enough to let you address sub-symptoms (like excess weight or a lack of energy to exercise) and didn't have dramatic side effects, why wouldn't you want to take it?

I don't want to take "meds" because I don't think that I am the problem. The problem, I think, is external -- other people and our society, our culture.


- Can there be a solid long-term relationship if you're what women in their late 30s "take [because it's] what they can get"? (btw, that's a low-self-esteem answer)

I don't quite get the question. But I did not mean my phrasing to sound harsh. But if you have $5k to buy a car, and you need a car, you are going to take what you can get. Hopefully it is a used Honda with one-owner and no crashes.


- Is Columbus big enough to handle a person of your interests? Seriously. Might you do better in a suburb of NYC or in Seattle or in Austin, Texas?


Friends have told me for a few years now to move to the PNW. And I am considering it... But it would be a real endeavor.


As Yppej pointed out, until you choose to change things, your results will stay the same. The changes do not have to be binary: "I'm no longer a minamalist! Bring on the Laura Ashley décor!" Counting 200 items is a convenient way to measure your minimalism. But I don't think you'd have to turn in your Minimalist Card (TM) if you took up with someone who had 350 items in her possession (hint: don't count them in her presence ;) ). This stance is a little harder to take with kids, though you might consider widening your potential-mate field to someone in her early 40s whose kids are soon to leave the nest (perhaps you already have). Unless the issue really is the tie a mother will have to her kids for the rest of their lives, under her roof or not...

I would be open to dating a woman whose kids are launched.

If I met a woman with 350 items I'd marry her!

[iris lilies]

Every state in the PNW has an African American population that is significantly lower than your state. There is that to consider, not a positive when ‘woman shopping’ for you.

[Ultralight]

Every state in the PNW has an African American population that is significantly lower than your state. There is that to consider, not a positive when ‘woman shopping’ for you.

I know. But I am trying to broaden my preferences.

[Yppej]

Well Spokane has Rachel Dolezal.

[JaneV2.0]

It seems the PNW would be ideal for someone who wanted to remain alone.
http://kuow.org/post/seattle-freeze-real-thing

"I don't want to take "meds" because I don't think that I am the problem. The problem, I think, is external -- other people and our society, our culture." Or, as the old saying goes--everyone's out of step but you. I think I remember you've considered women from simpler cultures. Perhaps you should have another go at that.

[Ultralight]

Well Spokane has Rachel Dolezal.

Am I allowed to LOL at that?

[Yppej]

Yes.

[Ultralight]

It seems the PNW would be ideal for someone who wanted to remain alone.
http://kuow.org/post/seattle-freeze-real-thing

Very interesting article! I think Phoenix has a similar problem.


I think I remember you've considered women from simpler cultures. Perhaps you should have another go at that.
Why do you think I should have another go at that?

[Ultralight]

Yes.

There is an angel on my shoulder with pink hair, Doc Martin boots, and a t-shirt that says "This is what a feminist looks like" and she is telling me not to laugh. She says if I do, she'll get triggered.

[JaneV2.0]

I'm reading her memoir at the moment. "My family of origin sucked; I was brilliant at everything I touched..." The usual stuff
So far, no explanation of why she felt it necessary to reinvent herself.

[JaneV2.0]

...

Why do you think I should have another go at that?

Maybe a woman without preconceived notions about how USian life should be would be easier to fit into your ideal vision?

[Ultralight]

I'm reading her memoir at the moment. "My family of origin sucked; I was brilliant at everything I touched..." The usual stuff
So far, no explanation of why she felt it necessary to reinvent herself.

Did I miss something?

[Ultralight]

Maybe a woman without preconceived notions about how USian life should be would be easier to fit into your ideal vision?

I am not clear on what you mean. What are you getting at?

[Yppej]

Perhaps modernity is the cause of my purportedly low serotonin. ;)

No, I am opposed to taking "meds" because I think that the causes of my anxiety and depression are almost entirely external. Why treat me when my environment is the cause?

Is this your idea, or did your therapist espouse it?

[iris lilies]

I'm reading her memoir at the moment. "My family of origin sucked; I was brilliant at everything I touched..." The usual stuff
So far, no explanation of why she felt it necessary to reinvent herself.
Is that what she calls it, “reinventing” herself?

She is lying scum.

[iris lilies]

Maybe a woman without preconceived notions about how USian life should be would be easier to fit into your ideal vision?
How can there possibly be any woman in the world who has no preconceived notion of U.S. life?

[Yppej]

Maybe the Yanomami.

[Gardenarian]

INFJ.

Yours?

INTJ.
I can relate to a lot of what you are saying.
A lot.
My marriage is not ideal but dh is my only really close friend. It's just that he's a person, and people are difficult. If we hadn't married when we did (around 30 years of age) I would likely be very much on my own.

I have generally preferred dogs to people, but they're not much good at the Heimlich. :)

Imagining if I were single...I'd keep up a more active relationship with my sister. I might even go so far as to arrange a time to check in everyday (via text.) I'm 60, and female, so might have more health and safety concerns than you.

Being secure financially - it's hard for me to imagine being single and being dependent on a job again. Yuck! I think my primary goal would be to own my own home, and then to shoot for FI.

I would do whatever I could to maximize my health. I don't have anxiety or depression (much) but do have other health issues. Even with a partner, I belong to a gym (with all activities I get 2-3 hours of exercise a day) and try to eat well (a moving target nowadays.) I NEED this much exercise to keep on an even keel physically and psychologically.

One activity I really enjoy is dance. I'm able to be with people doing something that brings me joy, but I don't actually have to talk to anybody. So I'd probably do more dance - and yoga, too.

I haven't had great success with volunteering. The organizations are usually so inefficient that it drives me nuts, and I'm not much of a team player. I did enjoy volunteering at the local library but I was just on the Welcome Desk on my own. When the library offered me a part-time job, I knew I would get on fine with everyone. Very low key.

I work mainly to get to know more faces in the community, and frankly, as a reference librarian, I get to be in charge of the conversation. Doesn't make me sound very nice...people can irritate the heck out of me, so I guess I'm better in this structured setting. If I were single, I would probably work more, and having a really GREAT job fit would be a necessity.

I love love love where I live, and I would say my environment is at least 50% of my happiness - maybe 75%. Here, I feel like a naturally cheerful person. (Part of that might be getting older.)

And, thank goodness for books.

[Gardenarian]

Ooh, just read what you wrote about moving to the PNW. Moving to Oregon was one of the best things that has ever happened to me. Beautiful - biking, hiking, swimming, skiing, world class cultural events...wish I'd moved here from the start.

[Yppej]

Did I miss something?

You saw the antecedent of "her" as your pink-haired angel, but Jane is referring to Dolezal and her autobiography.

[Ultralight]

Is this your idea, or did your therapist espouse it?

My idea. I told my therapist I did not want to take any drugs. I told her the reason. She respected this and suggested non-drug methods to deal with depression and anxiety, among them: problem-focusing coping (where you identify a problem and solve it), meditation, nature walks, eating more healthy foods, avenues to be more social in the hopes of making better friends, and some CBT stuff.

[Ultralight]

INTJ.
I can relate to a lot of what you are saying.
A lot.
My marriage is not ideal but dh is my only really close friend. It's just that he's a person, and people are difficult. If we hadn't married when we did (around 30 years of age) I would likely be very much on my own.

I have generally preferred dogs to people, but they're not much good at the Heimlich. :)

Imagining if I were single...I'd keep up a more active relationship with my sister. I might even go so far as to arrange a time to check in everyday (via text.) I'm 60, and female, so might have more health and safety concerns than you.

Being secure financially - it's hard for me to imagine being single and being dependent on a job again. Yuck! I think my primary goal would be to own my own home, and then to shoot for FI.

I would do whatever I could to maximize my health. I don't have anxiety or depression (much) but do have other health issues. Even with a partner, I belong to a gym (with all activities I get 2-3 hours of exercise a day) and try to eat well (a moving target nowadays.) I NEED this much exercise to keep on an even keel physically and psychologically.

One activity I really enjoy is dance. I'm able to be with people doing something that brings me joy, but I don't actually have to talk to anybody. So I'd probably do more dance - and yoga, too.

I haven't had great success with volunteering. The organizations are usually so inefficient that it drives me nuts, and I'm not much of a team player. I did enjoy volunteering at the local library but I was just on the Welcome Desk on my own. When the library offered me a part-time job, I knew I would get on fine with everyone. Very low key.

I work mainly to get to know more faces in the community, and frankly, as a reference librarian, I get to be in charge of the conversation. Doesn't make me sound very nice...people can irritate the heck out of me, so I guess I'm better in this structured setting. If I were single, I would probably work more, and having a really GREAT job fit would be a necessity.

I love love love where I live, and I would say my environment is at least 50% of my happiness - maybe 75%. Here, I feel like a naturally cheerful person. (Part of that might be getting older.)

And, thank goodness for books.


Okay, I think you might really get me on a lot of this. :)

I prefer dogs too, often.

When I get sick (which unfortunately happens sometimes) I will email my sister and tell her. Then I will check in each day. I say: "If you don't hear from me for 24 hours, call the coroner to remove the body and come over and get Harlan." haha
Gallows humor, I suppose. But there is a sliver of seriousness to it.

Financial security. Yes, I know. I am way behind. Though in some contexts I continue to make progress.

As for maximizing my health, I agree this is a top priority. It really should be THE priority. My intention is to rage against my unhealthy habits. I fight them, I really do. Sometimes I win battles, sometimes I lose. But I need to win more.

That is great that you have dance! It sounds like a hobby that fits you well. :)

[JaneV2.0]

Maybe the Yanomami.

Hahaha! :laff:

[JaneV2.0]

How can there possibly be any woman in the world who has no preconceived notion of U.S. life?

I suppose there's that.

[SteveinMN]

I told my therapist I did not want to take any drugs. I told her the reason. She respected this and suggested non-drug methods to deal with depression and anxiety, among them: problem-focusing coping (where you identify a problem and solve it), meditation, nature walks, eating more healthy foods, avenues to be more social in the hopes of making better friends, and some CBT stuff.
Four years of therapy and I don't know how long since it ended (if, in fact, it has).

To quote a famous therapist on TV, "How's that workin' for ya?" Seriously, are you seeing progress -- commensurate with your investment in time and energy -- in addressing your anxiety and depression?

[ApatheticNoMore]

therapy very seldom works on the real causes of one's problems:

1) circumstances. If these can't be changed or one has absolutely ruled out changing them therapy is useless here. If they can be changed and there is some desire to change them therapy is actually BEYOND useless as it tends to not want to focus on changing actual circumstances of one's life but only changing one's thoughts toward one's circumstances.
2) actions, therapy might give some encouragement to changing actions. Changing actions might be enough for simple phobias, complex phobias are more difficult. Changing actions can be a useful approach but noone needs therapy for that really. Might be helpful if one literally has no other emotional support in life.
3) temperament, therapy isn't going to change one's basic temperament very much. Meds might some for some people.
4) human condition: therapy isn't going to help with the human condition - death of loved one's, fear of one's own death etc.. It's probably less useful for this than all the various thought systems one can study that over time have addressed them, as therapy can twist natural things like grief over death of loved ones etc. into weird things they aren't if it tries too hard to "analyze" them.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I can't imagine being in a relationship meaning be on the same page financially. My boyfriend wants to look into buying a house and work on starting a business. I don't particularly want either of these things for myself. I more often see a life of renting (I sometimes consider otherwise), contributing to the 401k and other savings, and improving job skills and education, and finding some career I can do into my old age even if part time or something some day. So no we're not really on the same page.

[JaneV2.0]

therapy very seldom works on the real causes of one's problems:

1) circumstances. If these can't be changed or one has absolutely ruled out changing them therapy is useless here. If they can be changed and there is some desire to change them therapy is actually BEYOND useless as it tends to not want to focus on changing actual circumstances of one's life but only changing one's thoughts toward one's circumstances.
2) actions, therapy might give some encouragement to changing actions. Changing actions might be enough for simple phobias, complex phobias are more difficult. Changing actions can be a useful approach but noone needs therapy for that really. Might be helpful if one literally has no other emotional support in life.
3) temperament, therapy isn't going to change one's basic temperament very much. Meds might some for some people.
4) human condition: therapy isn't going to help with the human condition - death of loved one's, fear of one's own death etc.. It's probably less useful for this than all the various thought systems one can study that over time have addressed them, as therapy can twist natural things like grief over death of loved ones etc. into weird things they aren't if it tries too hard to "analyze" them.

And, in some cases, diet, lack of exercise and/or sunlight, etc.

[Teacher Terry]

UL: the world is not the problem. Your reaction to it is. St. John's Wort is a supplement you can buy over the counter and it has helped some people with depression/anxiety. These two issues are different sides of the same coin. A good therapist does not solve your problems for you but helps you identify the solution that will work for you. Modern therapy techniques does not involve analyzing your past in a deep way to understand your problems now because that is really not helpful. We live on the West Coast and the first thing I said upon moving here is "Where are the black people?" So not a good choice when this is a population you are attracted too. There is no magic wand and no one is going to solve your problems. It is an inside job that often is facilitated by a helping professional. I used to tell my clients that if I was working harder then them we had a real problem.

[Ultralight]

therapy very seldom works on the real causes of one's problems:

1) circumstances. If these can't be changed or one has absolutely ruled out changing them therapy is useless here. If they can be changed and there is some desire to change them therapy is actually BEYOND useless as it tends to not want to focus on changing actual circumstances of one's life but only changing one's thoughts toward one's circumstances.
2) actions, therapy might give some encouragement to changing actions. Changing actions might be enough for simple phobias, complex phobias are more difficult. Changing actions can be a useful approach but noone needs therapy for that really. Might be helpful if one literally has no other emotional support in life.
3) temperament, therapy isn't going to change one's basic temperament very much. Meds might some for some people.
4) human condition: therapy isn't going to help with the human condition - death of loved one's, fear of one's own death etc.. It's probably less useful for this than all the various thought systems one can study that over time have addressed them, as therapy can twist natural things like grief over death of loved ones etc. into weird things they aren't if it tries too hard to "analyze" them.

Therapy is at least 90% "rent-a-friend."

[Ultralight]

UL: the world is not the problem. Your reaction to it is.
I disagree. Here is why:

We live in a world where/that is:
-Overpopulated by like 8 times
-On the verge of an antibiotic efficacy crisis
-Trump is President
-Terrorism and war are rampant even in the most advanced nations
-Cancer kills children and adults daily
-Starvation and access to clean water a huge deadly problem for millions and millions if not billions of people
-Reality TV
-Global Warming
-Murder and crime rates
-There are gun nuts all over
-North Korea probably has nuclear weapons
-ISIS and other terror organizations are seeking out nuclear weapons
-We still have to struggle to keep things like Creationism out of public schools
-AIDS and other STDs
-Boy Bands
-At least a third of all dogs die without a forever home
-Literally every body of water is polluted in the world
-The rain forests (the lungs of the planet) get deforested more each year
-There are huge islands of plastic waste in the oceans and they grow every year

Should I go on? Are you seriously -- like seriously -- going to tell me that having anxiety and depression in a world like this is an inappropriate reaction and I should just take some pill whose efficacy probably is not even evidence-based?

Wake up and smell the burnt toast! Or don't, because it will only depress you and make you anxious.

[iris lilies]

What? North Korea definately has nukes. Please update your list of horrors.

[iris lilies]

And yet, UL, what allows some people like me to ignore the shit out there? I believe it is brain chemistry.

Just this week I had a disappointment and spent a helf day ruminating about it, but was able to fully feel the disappointment, sit with it, and then move on, putting it behind me. I thought about self -soothing and how that is a life skill.

Some people cannot self- soothe or cant do it well. Probably that has something to do with brain chemistry, not necessarily nature, but chemical reactions developed in early childhood. Instability in early childhood causes all kinds of problems.

[ToomuchStuff]

I disagree. Here is why:

We live in a world where/that is:
-Overpopulated by like 8 times
-On the verge of an antibiotic efficacy crisis
-Trump is President
-Terrorism and war are rampant even in the most advanced nations
-Cancer kills children and adults daily
-Starvation and access to clean water a huge deadly problem for millions and millions if not billions of people
-Reality TV
-Global Warming
-Murder and crime rates
-There are gun nuts all over
-North Korea probably has nuclear weapons
-ISIS and other terror organizations are seeking out nuclear weapons
-We still have to struggle to keep things like Creationism out of public schools
-AIDS and other STDs
-Boy Bands
-At least a third of all dogs die without a forever home
-Literally every body of water is polluted in the world
-The rain forests (the lungs of the planet) get deforested more each year
-There are huge islands of plastic waste in the oceans and they grow every year

Should I go on? Are you seriously -- like seriously -- going to tell me that having anxiety and depression in a world like this is an inappropriate reaction and I should just take some pill whose efficacy probably is not even evidence-based?

Wake up and smell the burnt toast! Or don't, because it will only depress you and make you anxious.

Yes.
Unless your going to take over the world, get a vasectomy and then start eliminating population through Eugenics and death camps, it is only your reaction to this you control.
If you go back over what you listed, so much there is both man (part of nature) and nature reacting to man, and the population and taking care of the problem.
Of course we should't worry about your worrying, as developing anxiety (ulcers and other medical issues brought on by stress), and depression (and the want of self termination) is just a slow way of the world taking care of the overpopulation one person at a time.

[JaneV2.0]

Life has always been scary, less so now for most of us.
Work to fix what you can and don't dwell on the rest of it.

[Ultralight]

Life has always been scary...

I know. When I was a kid and said: "Mom, I wish I had never been born!" I really meant it.

[ApatheticNoMore]

hmm I thought by the world drives people to depression and anxiety it would be more the everyday stuff, the stressful jobs that take all our time, the money and job worries, the stresses of urban life, the time and other pressures that make social connections hard to maintain. Before I was let go from my last job I was reading a book called "Overwhelmed", and that is how I CONSTANTLY felt (was commuting a couple hours a day as well) - constantly feeling overwhelmed. (and yea I may well end up back to that type of crazy again - and that's the better scenario)

I guess I think the day to day experience of life can in many cases contribute to anxiety and depression. And yes fine a political system that can't actually deal with real problems and that seems completely beyond insane does not help, and there is no other way to describe D.C. now, and people do know this. But all the problems in the world that one only reads about are probably just information overload.

[Ultralight]

hmm I thought by the world drives people to depression and anxiety it would be more the everyday stuff, the stressful jobs that take all our time, the money and job worries, the stresses of urban life, the time and other pressures that make social connections hard to maintain. Before I was let go from my last job I was reading a book called "Overwhelmed", and that is how I CONSTANTLY felt (was commuting a couple hours a day as well) - constantly feeling overwhelmed.

I guess I think the day to day experience of life can in many cases contribute to anxiety and depression. And yes fine a political system that can't actually deal with real problems and that seems completely beyond insane does not help, and there is no other way to describe D.C. now, and people do know this. But all the problems in the world that one only reads about are probably just information overload.

My list was long and on the macro level. It would have gone really long if I went micro too. But what you said is largely true. Meaningless work with no real power or agency, bills to pay, chores, all sorts of obligations, fatigue, loneliness, physical ailments, etc.

This stuff will depress you and give you anxiety. I certainly understand why people drink heavily or smoke herb every day or take Prozac.

But I still have a little fight in me, not enough to fight the "system" but maybe enough fight to keep my person free of drugs.

Who knows. This world may eventually take all the fight out of me and then I will succumb to drugs.

[Yppej]

Today I read an article in Weight Watchers magazine, "Set Yourself Free". It said, "After a point the more we talk about a problem, the more we risk cementing ourselves into it."

UL how many posts have you had about your lonely life and nothing has changed? You say you will give up online dating and then a few weeks later post about a new woman you met online, but it never works out because of course she - like the world in general - does not measure up to your expectations.

You can either wallow in your misery or do something different than you have been doing.

[catherine]

I disagree. Here is why:

We live in a world where/that is:
-Overpopulated by like 8 times
-On the verge of an antibiotic efficacy crisis
-Trump is President
-Terrorism and war are rampant even in the most advanced nations
-Cancer kills children and adults daily
-Starvation and access to clean water a huge deadly problem for millions and millions if not billions of people
-Reality TV
-Global Warming
-Murder and crime rates
-There are gun nuts all over
-North Korea probably has nuclear weapons
-ISIS and other terror organizations are seeking out nuclear weapons
-We still have to struggle to keep things like Creationism out of public schools
-AIDS and other STDs
-Boy Bands
-At least a third of all dogs die without a forever home
-Literally every body of water is polluted in the world
-The rain forests (the lungs of the planet) get deforested more each year
-There are huge islands of plastic waste in the oceans and they grow every year

Should I go on? Are you seriously -- like seriously -- going to tell me that having anxiety and depression in a world like this is an inappropriate reaction and I should just take some pill whose efficacy probably is not even evidence-based?

Wake up and smell the burnt toast! Or don't, because it will only depress you and make you anxious.

Krishnamurti: "It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

At the same time, you just posted a beautiful thread about moments of peacefulness, and that's how we overcome our environment. As Viktor Frankl said, "“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way."

There are so many wonders in life, despite the yucky stuff, that we waste our time on earth by not acknowledging the wonders as well as the woes.

[Ultralight]

Today I read an article in Weight Watchers magazine, "Set Yourself Free". It said, "After a point the more we talk about a problem, the more we risk cementing ourselves into it."

UL how many posts have you had about your lonely life and nothing has changed? You say you will give up online dating and then a few weeks later post about a new woman you met online, but it never works out because of course she - like the world in general - does not measure up to your expectations.

You can either wallow in your misery or do something different than you have been doing.

Come at me with some bright ideas, bro. I am all ears.

[Teacher Terry]

I love V. Frankel's writing as well as a few others from their experience in the Holocaust. I cried while reading the books but very inspiring.

[Teacher Terry]

You can have many good friends to talk about your problems with but most will not be able to give you the insight and guidance to find your path. Sure there are lots of crappy therapists but a good one is worth their weight in gold.

[Ultralight]

You can have many good friends to talk about your problems with but most will not be able to give you the insight and guidance to find your path. Sure there are lots of crappy therapists but a good one is worth their weight in gold.

I apparently have one of the best in the city. I know several other people (atheists here) who see her and sing her praises. She was on the Secular therapy project list of therapists here.

Perhaps some cases of depression and anxiety cannot be cured.

[Yppej]

Come at me with some bright ideas, bro. I am all ears.

1. Medication
2. Picture bride from abroad
3. Stop kvetching. Sometimes when you are too focused on something it doesn't happen. Then when you stop trying it does. That's the story of my mother's second pregnancy.
4. Work on yourself and finding a purpose and passion in life by serving others. If your job lacks these qualities volunteer.

[Zoe Girl]

I am also INFJ, there is a real experience of chronic mild to moderate dissatisfaction with this world. I do a lot of reading on types, we are not really set up for the way the world is. I focus on how this is not my fault, and so some of it is the way it is. I have slowly found that talking or journaling about it often doesn't help. I find a solid sense of community and belonging are the best supports. I also have a very solid meditation practice which does not stop me from using medication. Several things happened to push me over to this many years ago and I do not regret it at all.

[JaneV2.0]

I wouldn't have a depressed partner--one of us with those tendencies is enough. I mentioned that to a relative, who seemed insulted.

Chronic depression is one of the most life-sapping conditions there is. The same relative later remarked to me that they think they had been robbed of a good part of their life by the "black dog." And that's with medication.

So unless you happen to meet a sex-positive African-American minimalist who can take or leave religion and children, enjoys dogs, and likes the idea of being the companion of a morose, moody, glass empty and dry as the Mojave kinda guy, you should probably cultivate the joys of solitude. Or any joy at all.

[ToomuchStuff]

Perhaps some cases of depression and anxiety cannot be cured.

Based on a couple of PTSD people I know, that is an accurate assessment. One has a service dog, just to make him get out of bed (to let the dog out and feed it), just because of that.

[ApatheticNoMore]

therapists often have no special insights (in fact in some areas they can be so lacking in life experience - say since they are often self-employed that they have never worked for a bad boss - that the average person has more). I mean this is all hypotheticals but I think ideally one might be better off just finding someone else who has done what one is pursuing (say a career or business direction etc.) or is in a situation one is in but further along (say one found oneself a single parent they could use a someone else who had done that who kids were grown etc..), and on many things one's friends are as likely to have good insight as any therapists (say one is wondering if they should stay with their partner - their friends and their own counsel is likely to have as much wisdom into that as any therapist).

And if one can't find anyone to learn from, then it still doesn't meant that one will necessarily be helped by therapy much. But if renting a friend makes life better then it's neither illegal nor immoral. :~)

[Ultralight]

therapists often have no special insights (in fact in some areas they can be so lacking in life experience - say since they are often self-employed that they have never worked for a bad boss - that the average person has more). I mean this is all hypotheticals but I think ideally one might be better off just finding someone else who has done what one is pursuing (say a career or business direction etc.) or is in a situation one is in but further along (say one found oneself a single parent they could use a someone else who had done that who kids were grown etc..), and on many things one's friends are as likely to have good insight as any therapists (say one is wondering if they should stay with their partner - their friends and their own counsel is likely to have as much wisdom into that as any therapist).

And if one can't find anyone to learn from, then it still doesn't meant that one will necessarily be helped by therapy much. But if renting a friend makes life better then it's neither illegal nor immoral. :~)

I spent a year in master's level social work classes. Many of the people I was in class with wanted to be therapists. And I got the feeling that many of them had more than enough problems of their own they have not been able to deal with. Sometimes I think it is the blind leading the blind.

My first therapist was a nice lady, benign in every way. And generally not helpful, though she was polite and nice.

My second therapist reminded me more of a hairdresser dolling out gossip and "words of wisdom."

The third and current therapist certainly has her own set of problems. But while she may not be able to see the "kick me" sign on her own back she seems to be able to tactfully point it out for others. Again, lots of my peers in the atheist community see her and sing her praises.

But for me, yeah, it is mostly a rent-a-friend.

[Ultralight]

Based on a couple of PTSD people I know, that is an accurate assessment. One has a service dog, just to make him get out of bed (to let the dog out and feed it), just because of that.

Some people are FUBARed. Maybe something happens -- an accident, an illness, tour of duty in a war, etc. but either way, they are just broken and that's it.

I'd venture a guess that some folks are born this way.

[Ultralight]

Chronic depression is one of the most life-sapping conditions there is.

Tell me about it...


The same relative later remarked to me that they think they had been robbed of a good part of their life by the "black dog." And that's with medication.

You lost me here. What do you mean?


So unless you happen to meet a sex-positive African-American minimalist who can take or leave religion and children, enjoys dogs, and likes the idea of being the companion of a morose, moody, glass empty and dry as the Mojave kinda guy, you should probably cultivate the joys of solitude. Or any joy at all.
1. Sex-positive is great! A fairly reasonable and normal sex life is fine too.
2. She does not have to be black. I have had long term relationships with women of other backgrounds. And I am expanding my preferences.
3. If she is minimalist that'd be amazing.
4. Again: Religion is not that big of a deal as long as it is live-and-let-live.
5. Not having kids is a deal breaker. No doubt.
6. Harlan and I are a package deal. No negotiations on that.

[SteveinMN]

You can either wallow in your misery or do something different than you have been doing.
Come at me with some bright ideas, bro. I am all ears.
This thread is full of "bright" ideas, pretty much all of which have been swatted away like a mosquito at a picnic. Won't consider addressing a chemical imbalance (even temporarily) with drugs; raising the walls of defense and then retrenching when certain life preferences are discussed; not apparently actively searching for help in finding a new job/career/location/hobbies;... There's "something wrong" with each suggestion or they seem to be received with a "maybe I'll think about it" or they're ducked entirely.

I understand that may be the depression talking. Having been a "glass half-empty" kind of guy and not well-rooted for most of your life hasn't helped. But that can change if you want it to. It won't be easy because the depression zaps that kind of energy. But I think it can be done if you're willing to fight the depression on whatever front it presents itself.

A member of my family sounds much like this -- she hasn't been happy with her life for years but there's always some reason why she "can't" change status quo. She can. She chose the life she's living and she has the time, energy, and money it would take to at least embark on improving things. I'm no psychologist but my suspicion is that this person has been in the trenches for so long that she is scared of the idea that she can function with substantial control over her own life. At this point I'm quite willing to help support her if she chooses to address her life in a sustainable manner. But it's getting harder to listen to why nothing is even worth a try. And I regret that so much of a life has been wasted this way.

[JaneV2.0]

"Black dog" is a phrase used to characterize depression, often associated with Winston Churchill. Similar to a black cloud hanging over your head.

I think it's possible that some are born depressed; certainly there's a hereditary tendency toward it. i'm just optimistic enough to believe it can be overcome (by natural means, most likely)

“When you've got it, if there were a magic wand across the room on the table that would make you happy and give you everything you want, it would be too much trouble to cross to cross the room and pick it up.” Dick Cavett on depression That's probably what you're up against, and why suggestions are generally deflected.

Asking another person to solve what may be a life-long problem--if only by her presence--would be daunting to any but the most dogged and self-sacrificing woman. Think about that. What, exactly, are you bringing to the relationship that would offset a lifetime of acting as a psychiatric nurse and sounding board for your uber-gloomy world view?

[Teacher Terry]

APN and UL: you two are birds of a feather. Gloom and doom and therapists are all rent a friends, nothing will help, the world is stacked against me, etc. Focus on what is in your circle of control and work on that. Or not-just complain and moan because really that is much easier. Read the books -Man's Search for Meaning, Night and All But My Life and what these people went through yet how they came out on the other side and had good lives. All of what we go through pales by comparison. Therapists are people too and have there own problems but that does not mean they can't help others. Many therapists are employed by hospitals, clinics, etc and are not self-employed. But just keep wallowing instead of doing the hard work of changing.

[iris lilies]

I think UL made some positive changes over the past year. He lost weight and upped his cooking skills. At least, those are things I am getting from his posts. He also stopped big time fishng, not that that was a negative thing.

About the minimalist thing: I have a friend who I met 30 years ago the same night I met DH. She is a real clutter bug. She has, what I consider to be, a strange obsesssion with physical objects, like dog equipment and camera equipment and household kitchen tools and decorative items. She is not a stupid person and she has interests and hobbies, all revolve around dogs and taking pictures. She had dozens of rolls of undeveloped film back in the days of film cameras. She couldnt afford to develop it. I think the dog hobby is good because It gets her out into the world even though she is always in the edge financially but I never u derstood constant focus on taking photos. She is trained at the professional level for it but did nt do anything professionally with that training.

Anyway, many years ago she married a nice guy and that marriage lasted less than five years. He talked about her stuff filling up their small house. It seemed to be a major factor in their split.

So, from this it seems minimalism isnt a small thing that can be ignored for luuuurv.

[Tammy]

Tell me about it...



You lost me here. What do you mean?


1. Sex-positive is great! A fairly reasonable and normal sex life is fine too.
2. She does not have to be black. I have had long term relationships with women of other backgrounds. And I am expanding my preferences.
3. If she is minimalist that'd be amazing.
4. Again: Religion is not that big of a deal as long as it is live-and-let-live.
5. Not having kids is a deal breaker. No doubt.
6. Harlan and I are a package deal. No negotiations on that.

And you totally skipped the last part of that sentence, after numbers 1-6. About finding a person willing to hang out with you.

[Tammy]

"likes the idea of being the companion of a morose, moody, glass empty and dry as the Mojave kinda guy, you should probably cultivate the joys of solitude. Or any joy at all."

I think that is what Steve was getting at. I would be afraid to commit to you simply because you would want me to be your psych nurse all the time. 😄

[ApatheticNoMore]

APN and UL: you two are birds of a feather. Gloom and doom and therapists are all rent a friends, nothing will help, the world is stacked against me, etc.

I was making a critique of therapy which I realize was taken personality even though I was very careful not to make things personal.

I guess my main point is therapists have their own human biases which can and sometimes DOES interfere with therapy. They often have no special insight. I think above average insight into other people is a kind of gift or aptitude that can't really be taught in school. There are many areas of life they are often ill equipt to advise on and yes often don't have the humility to say: "I don't think I have anything to offer you on that topic, I am simply out of my depth there". But this last part, that therapists are not experts on many aspects of life, is obvious if one doesn't expect therapists to be magic men and women. But I think part of their appeal to many people is they do.

[Teacher Terry]

Therapists do turn away clients when it is not a good fit. Also some can't work with certain clients because of their own triggers so they will refer them out. Some will refer out if they and the client are not making progress. There are lousy people in every profession. It takes a lot of training to be a therapist. After graduate school they put in many supervised hours honing their skills. I am not taking it personally because I chose not to practice in that area because
I found it too depressing. Instead I used my degrees to test, evaluate and make recommendations to help people with disabilities and their counselors develop a plan to return to work in a capacity that fit them. I found that to be rewarding. I was a SW for while working with abused kids and their families and after 4 years was burned out. In human services you need to find your niche.

[frugal-one]

Krishnamurti: "It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

At the same time, you just posted a beautiful thread about moments of peacefulness, and that's how we overcome our environment. As Viktor Frankl said, "“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way."

There are so many wonders in life, despite the yucky stuff, that we waste our time on earth by not acknowledging the wonders as well as the woes.

There were people in the death camps who survived and did not succumb to depression, etc.... Read the bolded part above. I think this is why. There are people I know who have TERRIBLE things happen to them, yet they remain positive. And, there are people I know who are drama queens... that is, make a big deal out of EVERY little thing. I believe the choice is yours to make.

[LDAHL]

We live in a world where/that is:
-Overpopulated by like 8 times
-On the verge of an antibiotic efficacy crisis
-Trump is President
-Terrorism and war are rampant even in the most advanced nations
-Cancer kills children and adults daily
-Starvation and access to clean water a huge deadly problem for millions and millions if not billions of people
-Reality TV
-Global Warming
-Murder and crime rates
-There are gun nuts all over
-North Korea probably has nuclear weapons
-ISIS and other terror organizations are seeking out nuclear weapons
-We still have to struggle to keep things like Creationism out of public schools
-AIDS and other STDs
-Boy Bands
-At least a third of all dogs die without a forever home
-Literally every body of water is polluted in the world
-The rain forests (the lungs of the planet) get deforested more each year
-There are huge islands of plastic waste in the oceans and they grow every year

Should I go on? Are you seriously -- like seriously -- going to tell me that having anxiety and depression in a world like this is an inappropriate reaction and I should just take some pill whose efficacy probably is not even evidence-based?

Wake up and smell the burnt toast! Or don't, because it will only depress you and make you anxious.

I am seriously like seriously going to tell you that a lifetime of angst-in-the-pants is in fact an inappropriate reaction to a world like this. I mean, how has it worked out for you so far?

Today, it's global warming, Kim Jong Un and cancer. Yesterday it was the little ice age, Attila the Hun and the Black Death. You're going to die, as is everyone you know. Until then, you get to scratch out a living in a world oozing with stupidity, alienation, violence and gratuitous cruelty. Are you going to let something as trite as mortality ruin your day? Are you going to let tomorrow's darkness steal today's sunshine?

I recommend William Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. I think he makes a good case that the fact that the world often or even mostly sucks does not preclude a happy life. No self-delusion required.

[catherine]

I recommend William Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. I think he makes a good case that the fact that the world often or even mostly sucks does not preclude a happy life. No self-delusion required.

Yup, I can second that recommendation.

[Ultralight]

Okay, I am going to to address many of the points you all have brought up here, from what I consider the good ones to the rather questionable ones and those in between.

I'd say yes, I am in a rather deep depression now. I have got a few physical health problems at the moment I am struggling with too. So that is making it all the worse. But I would rather not get into those in detail now.

I want you all to remember that this is just one of my threads on here. I have created numerous upbeat and/or feisty and/or interesting threads ranging from weight loss to cooking to book reviews to vacation stories to reflective threads (such as a recent one about moments of peacefulness).

Rest assured, no ex-girlfriend of mine would ever report that she had to be my psych nurse. lol
My ex-wife was not all that nurturing and was often quite cold. She and the other significant others experienced me at my depressive worst but they also experienced me at my silly best and my thoughtful best and my noble best and my loving best and my supportive best.

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” -- George Bernard Shaw
When I was a young man I was unreasonable in Shaw's sense.

But as I got older and the weight of the world crushed my spirit and I lost the grand hope for humanity I thought: "If I cannot change the world, perhaps I can at least keep its adverse effects off of me."

That is no easy task either though.

[Ultralight]

I recommend William Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. I think he makes a good case that the fact that the world often or even mostly sucks does not preclude a happy life. No self-delusion required.

I am going to check this out.

[LDAHL]

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” -- George Bernard Shaw


When I was a young man I was unreasonable in Shaw's sense.



So was Stalin. I think much of the world's misery is the result of people trying to replace gradual, hard-earned cultural evolution with the imposition of some shiny new looks-good-on-paper social theory they thought up last week. That's why I'm a conservative.

[catherine]

So was Stalin. I think much of the world's misery is the result of people trying to replace gradual, hard-earned cultural evolution with the imposition of some shiny new looks-good-on-paper social theory they thought up last week. That's why I'm a conservative.

Unfortunately, the status quo doesn't change for the better without incredible sacrifice by visionary people. That's why I'm a liberal.

[Alan]

I think much of the world's misery is the result of people trying to replace gradual, hard-earned cultural evolution with the imposition of some shiny new looks-good-on-paper social theory they thought up last week. That's why I'm a conservative.True that!

[Ultralight]

When I lived in Dayton I had these two friends. We'll call them Frank and Lee.

Frank was a depressive and had been since his teen years. You think I get the blues? Frank was a virtuoso who could rattle off a bazillion reasons. And he would really cling to things, ruminate over them, many, many of them.

Lee said once: "I think when you are born fate or genetics or whatever throws you a ball of depression. And generally you carry it for life. When I was born the ball of depression they threw at me was the size of a tennis ball. Something bad happens, I will feel bad for a little while then move on. But when Frank was born they threw a jumbo beach ball sized ball of depression to him."

I know Frank was worse off than me, especially since he killed himself a couple summers ago.


Lee is still kickin' though -- he smiles, laughs, plays music, and is social with the best of them. And he has had some tough times, like when his wife died several year back. Lee is resilient.
Frank was not resilient.

I am perhaps between the two.

[catherine]

When I lived in Dayton I had these two friends. We'll call them Frank and Lee.

Frank was a depressive and had been since his teen years. You think I get the blues? Frank was a virtuoso who could rattle off a bazillion reasons. And he would really cling to things, ruminate over them, many, many of them.

Lee said once: "I think when you are born fate or genetics or whatever throws you a ball of depression. And generally you carry it for life. When I was born the ball of depression they threw at me was the size of a tennis ball. Something bad happens, I will feel bad for a little while then move on. But when Frank was born they threw a jumbo beach ball sized ball of depression to him."

I know Frank was worse off than me, especially since he killed himself a couple summers ago.


Lee is still kickin' though -- he smiles, laughs, plays music, and is social with the best of them. And he has had some tough times, like when his wife died several year back. Lee is resilient.
Frank was not resilient.

I am perhaps between the two.

That's tough, so tough.

My 28 yr old DIL's first husband wrapped a plastic bag around his head and killed himself the day after she told him she was marrying my son. I get angry when I think about the suffering he caused his family including her.

My father killed himself more slowly. He went from having a wonderfully intelligent, loving family, devoted wife and 4 kids and living in a house he built with his two hands to dying at age 43, homeless in the Bowery, from alcoholism.

When my DIL and I had a more intimate moment, I told her that not everything in nature thrives. There's no explanation for why some people are resilient, as you said, UL, and why others opt out of their existence.

I'm happy that you have more of Lee than Frank in you.

[SteveinMN]

"likes the idea of being the companion of a morose, moody, glass empty and dry as the Mojave kinda guy, you should probably cultivate the joys of solitude. Or any joy at all."

I think that is what Steve was getting at. I would be afraid to commit to you simply because you would want me to be your psych nurse all the time. 
Just for the record, that quote is not mine.

My main thrust is that (at least in our society) we all get to re-create our lives based on how we react to what's around us. Notions, goals, and priorities can and do change. Nothing wrong with that. Once a notion or goal or priority no longer serves an individual, though, it should be re-evaluated and the possibility of discarding it at least a possibiiity.

If being a part of a committed LTR has that much priority for UL, then the barriers to forming such a relationship need to be determined and some existing notions/goals/priorities changed or eliminated. If being part of a committed LTR does not have a higher priority than life as it is now, then there's no need for change. Or for wishing things were different. Or for lamenting the situation.

In UL's case, if depression is keeping him from even getting to the point at which he could consider what to change to form an LTR, then the notions, goals, and priorities he's using to address his depression need to be evaluated first. Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result? The odds of that happening are incalculable.

[Teacher Terry]

Imagine pouring yourself a glass of milk to discover it is spoiled after you take a drink.
But instead of throwing it out you put it back in the refrigerator and the next day take another drink expecting it to taste good. But it is spoiled and you keep repeating this over and over expecting a different result.

[Ultralight]

Ain't no two ways about it. I am in a real funk.

I appreciate the ideas, suggestions, and thoughts.

[Ultralight]

That's tough, so tough.

My 28 yr old DIL's first husband wrapped a plastic bag around his head and killed himself the day after she told him she was marrying my son. I get angry when I think about the suffering he caused his family including her.

My father killed himself more slowly. He went from having a wonderfully intelligent, loving family, devoted wife and 4 kids and living in a house he built with his two hands to dying at age 43, homeless in the Bowery, from alcoholism.

When my DIL and I had a more intimate moment, I told her that not everything in nature thrives. There's no explanation for why some people are resilient, as you said, UL, and why others opt out of their existence.

I'm happy that you have more of Lee than Frank in you.

I am sorry to hear about those tragedies in your family. You are right, it is tough. That is an understatement.

As for Frank, none of his closest friends blamed him for committing suicide. We all knew it was what was best for him. We do wish there had been a more humane way for him to do it. And we all miss the heck out of him. Because at his best he was so funny and insightful. But he was terminally mentally ill with profound depression.

As for whether or not I am more like Frank or more like Lee, who really knows. I think I am somewhere between them. I know I am not a very resilient person. And what resilience I have seems to fade with each passing year. The older I get, the less fight I have in me. Perhaps this is natural.

[frugal-one]

So was Stalin. I think much of the world's misery is the result of people trying to replace gradual, hard-earned cultural evolution with the imposition of some shiny new looks-good-on-paper social theory they thought up last week. That's why I'm a conservative.

gobbledygook

[Ultralight]

I have been reflecting a great deal on this discussion, the suggestions and ideas therein, along with my responses.

One thing that I think is absolutely correct and worthwhile is your suggestion to find a meaningful hobby or pastime, one that involves a fair amount of socializing in a way that builds a relationship (goes beyond chit-chat).

Some of you all have provided examples from your own lives (scuba or gardening, for instance).

I noted some examples from my colleagues or from acquaintances (rock climbing, sky diving, fantasy football).

My conclusion is that you all are correct. I need something like this. So I am keeping my eye out for something that appeals to me. And to be honest, I am keeping my eye out for things that don't necessarily appeal to me but also don't repulse me either. haha

Here are some of the ideas I have considered:
-Table top gaming (Settlers of Catan, Railroad Tycoon, etc.)
-Dog rescue volunteering
-Community gardening (I already did this with no success, so I remain a little dubious)
-Rock climbing (they are building a rock wall a couple blocks from my apartment building
-Book club (find one or even start one)
-Movie club (this could be an atheist thing as I strongly suspect matinee and dinner outings would be popular).
-Yoga
-Tai Chi

Of course, as I mentioned earlier I am dealing with some health issues at the moment. So that is my first priority. If I can get well, then finding a meaningful and social hobby is next on the list.

[catherine]

-Community gardening (I already did this with no success, so I remain a little dubious)
-

Happy New Year's, UL! Glad you're scouting fun things that will bring a little joy and friendship to your life!

Just want to offer up an idea: As some of you know, I enrolled in a Master Gardener class last fall. Believe me, even though I have backyard gardens, I started out as a total beginner in terms of really knowing gardening. It has been amazing!! (BTW, I little bragging--I got a 97% on my midterm a couple of weeks ago!).

The benefit of a Master Gardener program vs community gardening is it's more intense. You're going with a goal of not only learning, but ultimately being a community resource. It's really rewarding!

I googled Master Gardener programs in Ohio and there's one at OSU: https://franklin.osu.edu/program-areas/master-gardener-volunteers/how-become-master-gardener-volunteer. Is that anywhere near you?

It starts in January, so you may be able to slip in. At least in the Rutgers MG class, the cost is 0. You only pay for the materials for a year-long class. It's such a gift!

This is just a thought. I've really enjoyed it. Yes, there are a lot of old ladies like me, but we also have younger men and women. It's a diverse class, and fun.

[SteveinMN]

I need something like this. So I am keeping my eye out for something that appeals to me. And to be honest, I am keeping my eye out for things that don't necessarily appeal to me but also don't repulse me either. haha
Good to hear this! I'm guessing you'll find something. You may not, however, find it on your first try. It may take more than one shot or tweaking the idea a little to make it successful.

My experiences in life make me believe strongly in The Law of Attraction. I have found that expressing myself in an interest eventually brings like-minded people and opportunities to me, which makes pursuing the interest even more interesting and fun. Good luck!

Also good luck addressing your health issues. That has to come first, of course.

[Williamsmith]

I have followed this thread but have been hesitant in making any comments because the nature of depression, in my humble and uneducated opinion, is such that what works for one person cannot and does not work for another. Because of the seriousness of the consequences of getting it wrong, I defer to professionals who are paid to get it right. And so in this instance as in the literally hundreds of instances of my past, when I interact with people who are obviously suffering from anxieties and depressions, it is my way to listen and encourage them to continue seeking professional help.

I do not come at this without personal experience nor am I emboldened by my professional exposure. I write here out of personal concern for my fellow man. An atheist probably does not benefit from a religious person’s promises to ask God to intercede on his behalf, though I may do that. But I can promise UL that his health and welfare are on my mind and in my heart. The responses to his OP here thus far should reinforce to him that much of the humanity he is a part of daily, truly cares about his right to pursue happiness and have it.

And so, I encourage him to continue seeking professional help, even though his experience with it for quite some time has led him to believe it is largely ineffective. I have tried certain things for tedious periods of time without success and suddenly and unexpectedly had a breakthrough. And this is what I hope for UL. A breakthrough, a small crack in the wall that he can excavate a hole to crawl through.

Do not rule out any solution, as far fetched as it may appear.

[Ultralight]

I have followed this thread but have been hesitant in making any comments because the nature of depression, in my humble and uneducated opinion, is such that what works for one person cannot and does not work for another. Because of the seriousness of the consequences of getting it wrong, I defer to professionals who are paid to get it right. And so in this instance as in the literally hundreds of instances of my past, when I interact with people who are obviously suffering from anxieties and depressions, it is my way to listen and encourage them to continue seeking professional help.

I do not come at this without personal experience nor am I emboldened by my professional exposure. I write here out of personal concern for my fellow man. An atheist probably does not benefit from a religious person’s promises to ask God to intercede on his behalf, though I may do that. But I can promise UL that his health and welfare are on my mind and in my heart. The responses to his OP here thus far should reinforce to him that much of the humanity he is a part of daily, truly cares about his right to pursue happiness and have it.

And so, I encourage him to continue seeking professional help, even though his experience with it for quite some time has led him to believe it is largely ineffective. I have tried certain things for tedious periods of time without success and suddenly and unexpectedly had a breakthrough. And this is what I hope for UL. A breakthrough, a small crack in the wall that he can excavate a hole to crawl through.

Do not rule out any solution, as far fetched as it may appear.

Much appreciated. Thank you.

[pinkytoe]

UL-I just want to reiterate that I bet that many of us here think of you fondly and have fingers crossed that you will find new beginnings in the coming year. It is a strange but beautiful phenomenon to me that we have this little community of kindred spirits here that we will most likely never meet yet that we care about each other's lives.

[ApatheticNoMore]

truthfully I think UL will find someone (a romantic partner I mean). I fully expect to hear it, but who knows when. that I can't predict. But it kind of seems bound to happen. It doesn't of course fully cure depression for everyone but that depends, it could, but not necessarily.

[frugal-one]

This might help you find an interest?????
https://www.columbusonthecheap.com/events/

[rosarugosa]

UL-I just want to reiterate that I bet that many of us here think of you fondly and have fingers crossed that you will find new beginnings in the coming year. It is a strange but beautiful phenomenon to me that we have this little community of kindred spirits here that we will most likely never meet yet that we care about each other's lives.

Well said, Pinkytoe, and I think it's a pretty wonderful thing. I feel fortunate to be a part of it. :)

[Ultralight]

UL-I just want to reiterate that I bet that many of us here think of you fondly and have fingers crossed that you will find new beginnings in the coming year.

Thank you. It means a lot.


It is a strange but beautiful phenomenon to me that we have this little community of kindred spirits here that we will most likely never meet yet that we care about each other's lives.

I agree!

[Ultralight]

This might help you find an interest?????
https://www.columbusonthecheap.com/events/

Thanks!

[Ultralight]

I found out something interesting. The Minimalists, Joshua Fields Millburn and Ryan Nicodemus are both partnered.
Now, these two guys are arguably the most well-known and influential minimalists in the world. They have books, documentaries, a blog, a podcast, and they go on tours to spread minimalism.

Ryan's partner, who he met after becoming successful is not a minimalist.

Joshua's partner is a minimalist. But she was also a single mom, he appears to have taken on the co-parenting of her kid.

This makes me think...

These two guys who ought to have their pick of any minimalist woman in the country have chosen women who I would politely decline for deal breaker reasons. What am I to make of this? What are the implications?

[iris lilies]

Dude. I think you know.

[Alan]

What am I to make of this?
You value an ideology more than a potential life partner.

What are the implications?
You will be lonely until you bring balance into your life.

[Ultralight]

I had dinner with a friend of mine last night. We're close enough to be candid.

I had mentioned something that happened back in Arizona and referred to me "then wife."

He said: "I always forget you were married. It is hard for me to believe you were ever married. You are the most individualistic person I have ever known. You live your life your way, you enjoy more solitude than anyone I know."

I thought: "Is he trying to tell me something?"

[mschrisgo2]

You go to extremes?

[catherine]

I found out something interesting. The Minimalists, Joshua Fields Millburn and Ryan Nicodemus are both partnered.
Now, these two guys are arguably the most well-known and influential minimalists in the world. They have books, documentaries, a blog, a podcast, and they go on tours to spread minimalism.

Ryan's partner, who he met after becoming successful is not a minimalist.

Joshua's partner is a minimalist. But she was also a single mom, he appears to have taken on the co-parenting of her kid.

This makes me think...

These two guys who ought to have their pick of any minimalist woman in the country have chosen women who I would politely decline for deal breaker reasons. What am I to make of this? What are the implications?

You are more committed to deal breakers than the average guy? Your deal breakers have kept you single? Your ideologies are more important than your relationships?

My son was talking to me last night about a 30-something woman he knows who broke up with a great guy about a year or so ago. So my son asked here what happened between you and them to cause the breakup. She said, "It was basically my cat." Turns out he has cat allergies and she adores her cat. She's about to get a picture of her cat tattooed on her arm.

"So," I said to my son, "She basically has chosen a relationship with her cat over this guy?" I found that amazing. True, there could have been any number of other factors involved, but I think that some people just get too attached and comfortable with their single-life "must-have's". Her cat will only be around another few years, but B, a truly nice guy and definitely partner material, will be around, hopefully, for at least 50 years if he lives a normal lifespan. And he'll be sharing those years with someone else because his first love preferred her cat.

ETA: The cat thing is just an example. Obviously I know that of all the deal breakers, ULs biggest one would be that he and Harlan are a package deal, and I get that. But then again, I'm a dog person, not a cat person. :)

[Williamsmith]

You know UL, I’ve been accused of being a little “out there” but reading this thread, the thought occurred to me that things could be worse........you could have titled this thread, “Practical Strategies to Cope with Being Partnered.” Think about that and have a beer.

[JaneV2.0]

I am a cat person. Allergies can be managed. What was she supposed to do, dump her beloved cat out on a street corner like a scene out of Breakfast at Tiffany's? Animals can get their hearts broken, too. I know countless people with allergies to cat dander who keep cats. I suspect it was his rigidity that sealed the deal.

[catherine]

I am a cat person. Allergies can be managed. What was she supposed to do, dump her beloved cat out on a street corner like a scene out of Breakfast at Tiffany's? Animals can get their hearts broken, too. I know countless people with allergies to cat dander who keep cats. I suspect it was his rigidity that sealed the deal.

I know. I realize that. I think the key word is "management"--and that there are probably other reasons that relationship didn't work. And I joked about not being a cat person, but in truth I don't want any animal to suffer--that's why I'm mostly vegetarian and have shepherded mice from my home to the grasses in the creek behind my house rather than kill them.

So that was probably a bad example, but I used it to show how certain things become prioritized in our lives over relationships. I wonder if it's a function of people getting married later these days? When I got married in my early 20s, I had had no time to get attached to anything.

[razz]

When I was considering my marrying my DH, I was so concerned and caring about him, i asked him if he was really sure I was the right person for him and listed all my faults, emotionalism etc until he finally told me, "All we can do is try." He couldn't imagine not at least trying to be a couple despite our obvious joint human flaws. I couldn't imagine either. We saw each other as truly worthy and loveable.

I don't understand all the reasons being mentioned in this thread. One either really cares the other and wants what is the best for the beloved or not. If one doesn't start out that way, how does one get through the stresses of married life? Why marry or partner someone without commitment from the outset?

Part of me does understand somewhat though. Some have asked if I wish to remarry. I cannot now imagine sharing my freedom and space with another. I am content as I am so maybe that is the difference that is being explored here. What would make me change my thinking? I would love to have more hugs, more intellectual discussions but that is about all that I miss. Fun thinking about it!

[JaneV2.0]

How is life with a companion animal not a relationship? I wouldn't partner with someone who could discard a cat or dog on a whim; that would tell me all I needed to know about them. And many animal "allergies" are a more acceptable cover for dislike.

There is something to be said for marrying young, I suppose, from the standpoint of growing up together. Although you could just as easily grow apart. Marrying doesn't suit everybody, anyway.

[catherine]

How is life with a companion animal not a relationship? I wouldn't partner with someone who could discard a cat or dog on a whim; that would tell me all I needed to know about them. And many animal "allergies" are a more acceptable cover for dislike.


A companion animal is definitely a relationship, no doubt. But it's not the same as a human relationship. If I were truly interested in a person, and I was really hoping to have a long-term human partner, and they were allergic to my dog, that would be a real Sophie's choice, but I wouldn't make that choice between man or beast until I had investigated all possibilities for resolution.

[Oddball]

You are the most individualistic person I have ever known. You live your life your way . . .
A best friend from childhood told me the same thing back when we were about 30. It took me nearly 20 years to realize it was not a compliment. Rugged individualism may seem admirable, but most often it's a symptom of deeply suppressed emotional pain. Just ask Frank Sinatra and Jules Verne (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0192828398/). Suggested reading: The Road Less Traveled (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0743243153/) and I'll Meet You There (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1499030789/).

[Ultralight]

Dude. I think you know.

Do I...?

[Ultralight]

You value an ideology more than a potential life partner.



I relate better to ideas than people; that is true.

[Ultralight]

You go to extremes?

I'd say I am thorough.

[Ultralight]

A best friend from childhood told me the same thing back when we were about 30. It took me nearly 20 years to realize it was not a compliment. Rugged individualism may seem admirable, but most often it's a symptom of deeply suppressed emotional pain. Just ask Frank Sinatra and Jules Verne (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0192828398/). Suggested reading: The Road Less Traveled (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0743243153/) and I'll Meet You There (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1499030789/).

It may not have been a compliment to me either. In the political and socioeconomic realm I am certainly more collectivist (universal healthcare please!). But in my personal life I will admit to being stubbornly, vehemently, rebelliously individualistic. haha

Peer pressure had nowhere near the effect on me it had on others, so individualism came with some bonuses.

[ApatheticNoMore]

He said: "I always forget you were married. It is hard for me to believe you were ever married. You are the most individualistic person I have ever known. You live your life your way, you enjoy more solitude than anyone I know."

I thought: "Is he trying to tell me something?"

perhaps something trite and true: like relationships require give and take and perhaps some degree of compromise.

Liking solitude or not is another issue: a lot of of that probably depends on other things like degrees of introversion and extroversion. We are in deepest touch with ourselves in solitude, sometimes not the great aspects (aware of our pain etc.), but also sometimes aspects of our best selves as well are best made sense of in solitude. I really don't know that this part is a problem.

[Tammy]

Actually not all allergies can be managed. It would actually kill me to live in a house with a cat. The potential partner would have to choose between me and their cat.

[JaneV2.0]

Actually not all allergies can be managed. It would actually kill me to live in a house with a cat. The potential partner would have to choose between me and their cat.

I would think you would convey that up front, to save any misunderstanding. Just like the men I encountered who had children. Saved me getting involved.

[SteveinMN]

Originally Posted by Tammy
Actually not all allergies can be managed. It would actually kill me to live in a house with a cat. The potential partner would have to choose between me and their cat.
I would think you would convey that up front, to save any misunderstanding. Just like the men I encountered who had children. Saved me getting involved.
Deal-breakers (severe allergies, gender/sexual orientation, substance usage/abuse, children, etc.) need to be addressed as soon as the need becomes evident.


You value an ideology more than a potential life partner.

You will be lonely until you bring balance into your life.
This pretty well sums it up for me. We all have to put (relative) values on what's around us.

One of my dealbreakers was "no smokers". I'm sure there were women out there with whom I could have had an amazing relationship -- but they smoke. I cannot abide it. Can't even stand to walk by people who are smoking or whose clothes (and house and car...) smell of it. Yeah, I'm valuing the concept of being smoke-free more than the individual. The discussion of the health aspects of it are incidental. It's my choice.

Fortunately, for me, that restriction did not cause the universe of potential partners to approach zero. If it did, I might choose to re-evaluate how much I needed a partner over how much I needed a smoke-free life. (Interestingly, DW is an ex-smoker. So is another woman I was serious enough to marry. Both quit long before we got together, leading to interesting thoughts about how neither one of us would have progressed far as romantic partners earlier in our lives.) Sometimes, as in Tammy's situation, the dealbreaker is not a choice. For me -- and for UL -- it is.

[Tammy]

Of course! As soon as I was invited to someone's home they would find out that I couldn't enter the front door because of their pets. And then we would proceed from there with decision points along the way. It's not that complicated.

[Tammy]

It's the same thing with my current friendships. Those that choose to continue to be my friend agreed to either come to my house or meet in a public location.

[Zoe Girl]

It just hits home that it is hard to plan out choosing relationships, as much as we want some certainty or ability to control or influence our relationships. There is a lot of vulnerability in knowing that you are not physically able to accomodate everyone (as in the case of allergies or smoking), and then realizing that other people are going to work with you or not. Some people will literally not budge regardless, and that stops things short. Other people will accommodate because the value of the relationship is so much higher than the value of having to meet in their own home or smoke.

I heard through the family grapevine the things I am not supposed to know, or at least my mom is not going out of her way to tell me. My uncle deals with alcoholism and now is in his early 70's and retired. So he is dealing with a lot of aloneness. He was a professional, always employed, owns his home, cares for his adult daughter with Down Syndrome when she is not with mom. My aunt told me that the DR's were clear, he cannot be alone and stay sober. This is not a rehab situation just a reality. So he lives with my aunt most of the time, but they went on a trip so he stayed with my parents. And he brought the dog. This is earth shattering people! My mom let the dog in (there are no allergies). I think he stayed for a week. Literally the guy just needs to be with people, he is nice, he is responsible, he has his own money, he smokes outdoors only, if you met him he would be very normal, yet it has taken the family facing that he simply needs people to let the dog in the door. My mom of course did not tell me because I am on the side of accommodating more, people matter after all and that takes some flexibility. I have a had a lot of years with my mom, her insistence that people can't live without peanut butter so she always bought it for me, and my daughter has an epi-pen for a peanut allergy. Really peanut butter is not a requirement for life. So I am glad she had my uncle over to stay, and I am glad that she accepted that having his dog and people are essential for his mental health, and I understand she is not going to tell me about it.

[gmpg54]

I've been alone since my husband passed in 06.
What you mentioned always frightens me,I wonder what the outcome would be.If you find any solutions I'd appreciate hearing them.

[profnot]

Friends have told me for a few years now to move to the PNW. And I am considering it... But it would be a real endeavor.

Don't move to the PNW!

The Seattle Freeze applies to all of western Washington. Here's what wikipedia says:
Newcomers to the area have described Seattleites as being standoffish, cold, distant, and not trusting,[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze#cite_note-3) while in settings such as bars and parties, people from Seattle tend to mainly interact with their particular clique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clique).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze#cite_note-4)One author described the aversion to strangers as: "people are very polite but not particularly friendly."[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze#cite_note-5) In 2008 a peer-reviewed study published in Perspectives on Psychological Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspectives_on_Psychological_Science_(journal)) found that among all states, Washington residents ranked 48th in the personality trait extroverted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion).[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze#cite_note-6)

Yes, WA people are very introverted. It is very hard to make friends in the PNW, especially if you are new to the area. My friend in OR tells me it is the same there.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well the insular may not be so good, but very introverted seems like a MAJOR PLUS in my book. Not having to pretend to be an extrovert because the culture actually groks introverts, but just being able to be an introvert around introverts, sounds very good to me.

[JaneV2.0]

Well the insular may not be so good, but very introverted seems like a MAJOR PLUS in my book. Not having to pretend to be an extrovert because the culture actually groks introverts, but just being able to be an introvert around introverts, sounds very good to me.

I've never lived anywhere but the PNW, but I'm very comfortable here, for that reason and others. Perhaps you and the SO could look for jobs here? Companies are hiring...

[profnot]

Here are some of the ideas I have considered:
-Table top gaming (Settlers of Catan, Railroad Tycoon, etc.)
-Dog rescue volunteering
-Community gardening (I already did this with no success, so I remain a little dubious)
-Rock climbing (they are building a rock wall a couple blocks from my apartment building
-Book club (find one or even start one)
-Movie club (this could be an atheist thing as I strongly suspect matinee and dinner outings would be popular).
-Yoga
-Tai Chi


I suggest you create some profiles of women you would be interested in.
Age, geographic area, likes, dislikes, interests, values, children, etc - as complete a picture as possible.

Then make a list of what these women do outside work. Hobbies, volunteer contributions, etc - anything which tells you where women you are interested in hang out.

Then go to where they hang out. Prioritize the venues / events with more women than men, such as yoga. (Delete rock climbing and gaming from your list.)

To learn where women you like hang out, ask, ask, ask. Ask your female co-workers, ask the mothers and aunts of these women, ask sisters, ask them to ask other women, etc. Ask women.

I give speeches on how to attract new volunteers to non-profit groups. I've been using these recruiting techniques with great success for many years.

Find out where the people you want are - then go there.

When you talk to women, discuss their interests, not yours. The conversations are not about you. Listen to them. You will soon learn if you are interested.

Women love it when men listen.

Good luck!

[Tybee]

This is such great advice, profnot. If I were suddenly single and wanted another guy, I would immediately get another horse and start riding Western and hang around the quarterhorse set. Or the draft horse set--because I like these things, and I like the guys who like these things. I met my husband through mutual interests of music. I got lucky because he also likes draft horses as much as I do.
But mutual interests are the way to go.

[iris lilies]

Car clubs. Thats where the men my age are. If I were single and looking, I would buy an English car and join the car club for English sports cars. I always have liked gear heads. I like fixit men, but carpenters and etc tend to be solitary, they dont join together.

I find it a very comforting environment with men sitting around a table talking about fixing stuff, even if I have no idea what they are talking about. It brings back memories of my childhood and family reunions with my uncles.

[Ultralight]

I suggest you create some profiles of women you would be interested in.
Age, geographic area, likes, dislikes, interests, values, children, etc - as complete a picture as possible.

Then make a list of what these women do outside work. Hobbies, volunteer contributions, etc - anything which tells you where women you are interested in hang out.

Then go to where they hang out. Prioritize the venues / events with more women than men, such as yoga. (Delete rock climbing and gaming from your list.)

To learn where women you like hang out, ask, ask, ask. Ask your female co-workers, ask the mothers and aunts of these women, ask sisters, ask them to ask other women, etc. Ask women.

I give speeches on how to attract new volunteers to non-profit groups. I've been using these recruiting techniques with great success for many years.

Find out where the people you want are - then go there.

When you talk to women, discuss their interests, not yours. The conversations are not about you. Listen to them. You will soon learn if you are interested.

Women love it when men listen.

Good luck!

Thank you!

I am just laying low for the moment though, and working on improving my health situation.

When the time comes I will take much of your advice.

[boss mare]

This is such great advice, profnot. If I were suddenly single and wanted another guy, I would immediately get another horse and start riding Western and hang around the quarterhorse set. Or the draft horse set--because I like these things, and I like the guys who like these things. I met my husband through mutual interests of music. I got lucky because he also likes draft horses as much as I do.
But mutual interests are the way to go.

I am a horse person ... I was married to a person that had horses... huge huge mistake Big difference in ahorse person VS the person who simply has horses

[boss mare]

Don't move to the PNW!

The Seattle Freeze applies to all of western Washington. Here's what wikipedia says:
Newcomers to the area have described Seattleites as being standoffish, cold, distant, and not trusting,[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze#cite_note-3) while in settings such as bars and parties, people from Seattle tend to mainly interact with their particular clique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clique).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze#cite_note-4)One author described the aversion to strangers as: "people are very polite but not particularly friendly."[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze#cite_note-5) In 2008 a peer-reviewed study published in Perspectives on Psychological Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspectives_on_Psychological_Science_(journal)) found that among all states, Washington residents ranked 48th in the personality trait extroverted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion).[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze#cite_note-6)

Yes, WA people are very introverted. It is very hard to make friends in the PNW, especially if you are new to the area. My friend in OR tells me it is the same there.

Another PNW chiming in And another huge big introvert Also there is a huge differences in areas. You could be in Bellevue, then go 100 miles south and be in a whole 'nuther planet !Splat!

[boss mare]

Car clubs. Thats where the men my age are. If I were single and looking, I would buy an English car and join the car club for English sports cars. I always have liked gear heads. I like fixit men, but carpenters and etc tend to be solitary, they dont join together.

I find it a very comforting environment with men sitting around a table talking about fixing stuff, even if I have no idea what they are talking about. It brings back memories of my childhood and family reunions with my uncles.

The Fix-it guy will always catch my heart

[gmpg54]

Your post has made me feel sad for you.
I've been a widow,12 years in April,I have 3 kids who are involved with their jobs,hobbies,spouses,we see each other once a month usually...
I'm an introverted minimalist so I have learned to enjoy my own company and I can't endure clutter and disorganization so shopping for a hobby and or entertainment doesn't happen.
I lived with a friend for a short time and got involved in her religion which turned out to be an enormous mistake,as I found them to be over- bearing and mostly nosy so I have reversed to calling myself a lapsed Catholic.
This doesn't provide you with any solutions but I just wanted to express some solidarity. ..BTW,I worry about choking sometimes too

[Ultralight]

Your post has made me feel sad for you.
I've been a widow,12 years in April,I have 3 kids who are involved with their jobs,hobbies,spouses,we see each other once a month usually...
I'm an introverted minimalist so I have learned to enjoy my own company and I can't endure clutter and disorganization so shopping for a hobby and or entertainment doesn't happen.
I lived with a friend for a short time and got involved in her religion which turned out to be an enormous mistake,as I found them to be over- bearing and mostly nosy so I have reversed to calling myself a lapsed Catholic.
This doesn't provide you with any solutions but I just wanted to express some solidarity. ..BTW,I worry about choking sometimes too

I am a lapsed Catholic too. ;)

Perhaps we're kindred spirits, in a few ways. :)

[Yppej]

finding someone ... who is willing to give up their plan to have kids in order to have a life partner (this is more common of women in their late 30s as they feel the writing is on the wall and they should take what they can get).

This is where you expressed that women reach an age of desperation and so you can get them, and bend them to your anti-child wishes (power imbalance).

[Ultralight]

This is where you expressed that women reach an age of desperation and so you can get them, and bend them to your anti-child wishes (power imbalance).

I am merely describing a social phenomenon I have observed, experienced in my dating life, and seen female friends go through (they have literally explained to me that was what they were doing).

Would I date someone who is willing to give up their plan to have kids? Yes. Why? Not because I want to bend them to my will, but simply because I do not want kids.

Desperation is part of the human experience. Every person I have known has been desperate in some context during their life.

A woman deciding she is willing to forgo her dream of having a life partner and kids to simply have only a life partner is a negotiation some women have to make or feel they must make.

Some men have to decide whether or not they want to keep holding out for a woman without cellulite or if they are willing to compromise and date a really great woman who happens to have some cellulite. (For the record: Some cellulite is not a big deal to me, seems fairly normal).

But you get my point. Right? In this competitive environment we call dating, you don't get everything you want. You negotiate. You make some compromises. You win some and you lose some.

[Ultralight]

(power imbalance).

Everyone can make their own choices. What makes you think the power is imbalanced?

[CathyA]

There might be a nugget of insight in this 1,260 year-old poem of Li Po.

DRINKING ALONE WITH THE MOON
From a pot of wine among the flowers
I drank alone. There was no one with me --
Till, raising my cup, I asked the bright moon
To bring me my shadow and make us three.
Alas, the moon was unable to drink,
And my shadow tagged me vacantly;
But still for a while I had these friends
To cheer me through the end of spring...
I sang. The moon encouraged me.
I danced. My shadow tumbled after.
As long as I knew, we were boon companions.
And then I was drunk, and we lost one another.
... Shall goodwill ever be secure?
I watch the long road of the River of Stars.

That’s beautiful!

[dado potato]

The River of Stars...
http://twanight.org/newtwan/photos/3001438.jpg

[frugal-one]

That’s beautiful!

Didn’t understand it at all.

[Ultralight]

One of my colleagues has said she is going to try to fix me up with someone. haha

[SteveinMN]

One of my colleagues has said she is going to try to fix me up with someone. haha
Why is that a "haha"? Did you decide to abstain from going out? Are you laughing at the odds? Inquiring minds want to know. :)

[Ultralight]

Why is that a "haha"? Did you decide to abstain from going out? Are you laughing at the odds? Inquiring minds want to know. :)

Well, she is 24. So almost all the women she knows are that age. I am 39. 24 is way too young for this worn out, tired, middle aged dude. So that is probably a no-go right there.

But a woman that works in the office suite beside the one I work in apparently has a crush on me. She is about 30. I have seen her making googly eyes at me and giving me little waves and smiles. I kid you not.

That would be a no-go too as "I don't get my honey where I make my money."

Another colleague has suggested I meet one of her single friends. But she wants babies. So no-go!

[Ultralight]

A local minimalist woman I have been talking to (about minimalism) seems interested. She is mid-40s, does not have the baby-rabies at all, is into the tiny house movement, likes dogs, has a master's degree and a good job, enjoys traveling quite a bit (she is a national parks collector), and is physically attractive. She is also an avid reader of foreign fiction novels!

[Chicken lady]

Maybe the colleague thinks you’d be good for her friend’s mom.....

(you don’t mind grown up kids, right?)

[Ultralight]

Maybe the colleague thinks you’d be good for her friend’s mom.....

(you don’t mind grown up kids, right?)

Maybe. And probably, so long as they are leeches.

I went on a really, really good date a couple years ago with a 59 year old woman. She was pretty and sweet and fun and genuine. I was thinking: "This is definitely going to have subsequent dates. We have a great rapport!"

Then she proceeded to tell me about her two mid-to-late 20s sons who worked part time at a grocery store and lived at home. I was like: "This is definitely not going to have subsequent dates."

I simply told her we weren't a good match and wished her the best. She was a lovely woman though, relationship material if it weren't for the anchors weighing her down.

[Ultralight]

(you don’t mind grown up kids, right?)

I will say this, I am feel like my mind is changing about dating single moms. What I have noticed is that there are a certain and considerable number of single moms with just one kid. These moms wanted a family, they wanted kids. But then once they had one they realized it is a ton of unpleasant work. And then when they got divorced or the baby-daddy was a no-show and they were doing all or almost all that unpleasant child raising work they quickly decided: "No more kids!"

And I have plenty of my own baggage and problems -- the $165k in student loans certainly sticks out.

So I need to be a bit forgiving and understanding of the women I date too.

Anyway, this is something I am thinking about.

[catherine]

But then once they had one they realized it is a ton of unpleasant work. And then when they got divorced or the baby-daddy was a no-show and they were doing all or almost all that unpleasant child raising work they quickly decided: "No more kids!"


I'd hate for joint disdain of kids to be the common ground in your relationship--for the kid's sake. I have pictures of those movies where the relationship-starved woman and her bf drop her kids off at a Sunoco station and then peal off.

OTOH, I really don't know your comfort level around kids. I'd imagine you could be very good with someone in their teens--you have a healthy outlook on "fun." My stepfather was only 28 when my 38 year old mother married him, and he had no good experience with kids, but was actually a great stepfather. But if you do decide to take "no kids" off your dating checklist, be aware that it's not like accepting a few extra gizmos in the kitchen. You have to buy in 100% to the family, no matter how old the kid is.


So I need to be a bit forgiving and understanding of the women I date too.

Anyway, this is something I am thinking about.

Wow. That's great.

[Tammy]

I think it’s possible to be simultaneously against procreating but to be accepting and loving toward an already existing child.

[Ultralight]

I'd hate for joint disdain of kids to be the common ground in your relationship--for the kid's sake. I have pictures of those movies where the relationship-starved woman and her bf drop her kids off at a Sunoco station and then peal off.

OTOH, I really don't know your comfort level around kids. I'd imagine you could be very good with someone in their teens--you have a healthy outlook on "fun." My stepfather was only 28 when my 38 year old mother married him, and he had no good experience with kids, but was actually a great stepfather. But if you do decide to take "no kids" off your dating checklist, be aware that it's not like accepting a few extra gizmos in the kitchen. You have to buy in 100% to the family, no matter how old the kid is.



Wow. That's great.

I don't have disdain for kids. I am not parental, that is all.

And just because a woman does not want more kids because she realizes how much work it is does not mean that she does not love her kid and care for it properly.

For instance, after Harlan goes off to college it is very likely I won't adopt another dog -- at least for several years. Why? It is a lot of work, responsibility, and obligation.

But every day I have with Harlan I appreciate. He is a great dog and in many ways my life revolves around him in joyful ways -- taking him on walks, having him run zoomies, etc.

I actually don't think you have to buy into the family 100%. I know a few single moms who keep their mom life and their romantic life totally separate. They plan to launch their kids and then invest in a relationship (move in, marriage, etc.) Every woman is different. Not all expect a boyfriend to play house.

[Chicken lady]

My best friend in Cleveland is an archeologist trapped in place by a bad divorce settlement. (She can leave her school district IF she gives the kids to her ex.) she is a great mom. But she says as soon as the youngest (15 y.o. Sophomore) leaves for college, she is moving to New Zealand. (I have thought about introducing you two somehow, but I doubt the long term potential, which is your goal - it probably won’t be New Zealand, but it might be Cambodia. Also, she is white, eastern spiritual, and has stuff. And having been forced to pay off half the debt her dh ran up keeping his mistress and dealing with her own student loans she might be put off a legal partnership by yours.)

[Ultralight]

My best friend in Cleveland is an archeologist trapped in place by a bad divorce settlement. (She can leave her school district IF she gives the kids to her ex.) she is a great mom. But she says as soon as the youngest (15 y.o. Sophomore) leaves for college, she is moving to New Zealand. (I have thought about introducing you two somehow, but I doubt the long term potential, which is your goal - it probably won’t be New Zealand, but it might be Cambodia. Also, she is white, eastern spiritual, and has stuff. And having been forced to pay off half the debt her dh ran up keeping his mistress and dealing with her own student loans she might be put off a legal partnership by yours.)

I appreciate the thought. But I can do bad all by myself.

[Chicken lady]

I’ve noticed.

the thought occurred to me more for her benefit, but I like you.

[Ultralight]

I’ve noticed.

;) lol

[Teacher Terry]

Seems pretty silly to me that because she had adult children living at home you didn’t want to date her. I doubt that they will live their forever. Kids do boomerang back for all kinds of reasons in their 20’s.

[Ultralight]

Seems pretty silly to me that because she had adult children living at home you didn’t want to date her. I doubt that they will live their forever. Kids do boomerang back for all kinds of reasons in their 20’s.

They were 25 and 27, never gone to college, never moved out, worked part time at a grocery store.

Do the math. They ain't leaving!

[Teacher Terry]

Got it! My kids boomeranged back to finish college and one when he hit hard times but not a permanent thing. She is doing those kids no favors.

[Ultralight]

She is doing those kids no favors.

I agree with you, big time.

[iris lilies]

I think it’s possible to be simultaneously against procreating but to be accepting and loving toward an already existing child.
Exactly.

Kids age 10 and upcan be pretty independant, yet are open for family fun.

It is those 25 year old part time grocery store workers who live with their moms that are the problems. You can see the 10 year old now, today, but cannot project where he will be at 25.

I also know a few moms who had serious committed relationships but didnt live together until their children launched, age 18 or 21. Then they married the long term boyfriend. I think that can be a very workable path, too.

[Ultralight]

I also know a few moms who had serious committed relationships but didnt live together until their children
launched, age 18. Then they married the lojg term boufriend. think that can be a very responsible path, too.

Exactamundo.

[Ultralight]

On another note: My ex-wife is remarrying today, probably now.

[iris lilies]

On another note: My ex-wife is remarrying today, probably now.
Oh. Well. I wish you well today.

[Ultralight]

Oh. Well. I wish you well today.

Oh, I wish her well. She has the life she always wanted.

[SteveinMN]

I actually don't think you have to buy into the family 100%. I know a few single moms who keep their mom life and their romantic life totally separate. They plan to launch their kids and then invest in a relationship (move in, marriage, etc.) Every woman is different. Not all expect a boyfriend to play house.
Back when I was dating (ten years ago) the single moms kept their romantic lives separate from their kids -- until things got more serious. Then (usually around three months in if we lasted that long) I was introduced and asked to take part in family events and outings that included the kids (of course, mom and I still went out by ourselves but families do family things together). If you get to the points where the two of you are expected to appear at events together because you're "a thing" and you're staying overnight at each other's homes, that will happen on "dad's weekends" only so long.

When I became grandma's husband I was told that I did not have to feel that I needed to participate as fully in the grandkids' lives as grandma did; it was my choice. Since I was never a dad before this, it's all new to me, and sometimes it's a bit of a challenge. But I do it and, I think, do at least a passable job and am reaping the benefits of grandpa-hood. Come to find out that some of my wife's peers/friends have husbands who don't participate in the stepkids' (or grandkids') lives much at all. I think one key difference for me in this situation is that the grandpas who qualify on a biological basis are either otherwise occupied or just not reliable. I'm the grandpa that shows up, and that is noticed -- by more than the grandkids.

tl;dr You may not have to "buy into the family 100%" but if your romantic partner has kids who want to be part of her life, even as adults, you'll have to buy in at more than 0%. So you might want to consider your "rules of engagement" before you start dating many single moms.

[Ultralight]

Back when I was dating (ten years ago) the single moms kept their romantic lives separate from their kids -- until things got more serious. Then (usually around three months in if we lasted that long) I was introduced and asked to take part in family events and outings that included the kids (of course, mom and I still went out by ourselves but families do family things together). If you get to the points where the two of you are expected to appear at events together because you're "a thing" and you're staying overnight at each other's homes, that will happen on "dad's weekends" only so long.

When I became grandma's husband I was told that I did not have to feel that I needed to participate as fully in the grandkids' lives as grandma did; it was my choice. Since I was never a dad before this, it's all new to me, and sometimes it's a bit of a challenge. But I do it and, I think, do at least a passable job and am reaping the benefits of grandpa-hood. Come to find out that some of my wife's peers/friends have husbands who don't participate in the stepkids' (or grandkids') lives much at all. I think one key difference for me in this situation is that the grandpas who qualify on a biological basis are either otherwise occupied or just not reliable. I'm the grandpa that shows up, and that is noticed -- by more than the grandkids.

tl;dr You may not have to "buy into the family 100%" but if your romantic partner has kids who want to be part of her life, even as adults, you'll have to buy in at more than 0%. So you might want to consider your "rules of engagement" before you start dating many single moms.

Well, a minimalist single mom asked me to get a drink with her before the next minimalist meeting. I decided to go ahead and have the drink with her.

[SteveinMN]

Well, a minimalist single mom asked me to get a drink with her before the next minimalist meeting. I decided to go ahead and have the drink with her.
It's just a drink. It's not the rest of either one of your lives. Why not? If nothing else you two could be friends. Not every male-female interaction has to end in dating/sex/living together/marriage.

[Ultralight]

It's just a drink. It's not the rest of either one of your lives. Why not? If nothing else you two could be friends. Not every male-female interaction has to end in dating/sex/living together/marriage.

Oh, I know. I have lots of female friends. I am open to that, especially since she is a minimalist too.

[catherine]

I don't have disdain for kids. I am not parental, that is all.

And just because a woman does not want more kids because she realizes how much work it is does not mean that she does not love her kid and care for it properly.

For instance, after Harlan goes off to college it is very likely I won't adopt another dog -- at least for several years. Why? It is a lot of work, responsibility, and obligation.

But every day I have with Harlan I appreciate. He is a great dog and in many ways my life revolves around him in joyful ways -- taking him on walks, having him run zoomies, etc.

I actually don't think you have to buy into the family 100%. I know a few single moms who keep their mom life and their romantic life totally separate. They plan to launch their kids and then invest in a relationship (move in, marriage, etc.) Every woman is different. Not all expect a boyfriend to play house.

Sorry if I offended. Maybe my points came across harsh.

--Maybe "disdain" was not the right word. But you have been so "anti-kids" in these posts, I just wondered if the "anti-" is against kids, or against the thought of being responsible for one.

--I like your analogy with Harlan. I feel the same about Nessie.

--One interesting thing is how you used an impersonal pronoun to describe the kid ("it")

--Maybe not 100%, but I really think you have to "pressure-test" (a business term I was exposed to way too frequently this week) a relationship with mom + child. But again, I do think you, personally, could ace that--as long as you are sincerely interested in the kid. It is very difficult for a kid to accept "an intruder" into the family--no matter how old they are. They don't go off to college and never look back at their previous family experience--the one "you" are usurping. In terms of the mom waiting until the kid is 18, yeah, that takes pressure off, but keep in mind the quote "blood is thicker than water."

After all that, by all means go out and have a drink with Single Mom!!

[Ultralight]

Sorry if I offended. Maybe my points came across harsh.

--Maybe "disdain" was not the right word. But you have been so "anti-kids" in these posts, I just wondered if the "anti-" is against kids, or against the thought of being responsible for one.

--I like your analogy with Harlan. I feel the same about Nessie.

--One interesting thing is how you used an impersonal pronoun to describe the kid ("it")

--Maybe not 100%, but I really think you have to "pressure-test" (a business term I was exposed to way too frequently this week) a relationship with mom + child. But again, I do think you, personally, could ace that--as long as you are sincerely interested in the kid. It is very difficult for a kid to accept "an intruder" into the family--no matter how old they are. They don't go off to college and never look back at their previous family experience--the one "you" are usurping. In terms of the mom waiting until the kid is 18, yeah, that takes pressure off, but keep in mind the quote "blood is thicker than water."

After all that, by all means go out and have a drink with Single Mom!!

Yeah, you are probably right in the sense that me dating a woman with a kid will go nowhere.

I will still have the drink with her. No harm in that. But I won't flirt or act romantic in any way with this woman.

[catherine]

Yeah, you are probably right in the sense that me dating a woman with a kid will go nowhere.

I will still have the drink with her. No harm in that. But I won't flirt or act romantic in any way with this woman.

I think I went overboard in the caution department... I don't feel you should curtail interest in single mothers--as I said, I had a stepfather who was awesome and he virtually saved my life in some ways. I was just pointing out the fact that even if children are relatively independent, they are still very much present in the relationship and probably always will be.

I would still keep an open mind.

[Ultralight]

I think I went overboard in the caution department... I don't feel you should curtail interest in single mothers--as I said, I had a stepfather who was awesome and he virtually saved my life in some ways. I was just pointing out the fact that even if children are relatively independent, they are still very much present in the relationship and probably always will be.

I would still keep an open mind.

Well, I have a friend who does not want kids and is not parental.

He is dating a woman with a teenage daughter. He told the woman that he has "no interest in playing house or being a step-dad."

She honors this and has made no expectations of him in the roughly 12 months they have been dating.

There has been a variety of reactions to their arrangement. Women often say things like:
"He needs to step up and be a real man and help take care of her daughter!"
"She could do so much better! He doesn't even help take care of her daughter!"

[Ultralight]

This one is a real gem (though not all that uncommon).

"I am tired of doing for everyone else all the time and settling. I want an attractive, hard working, loving, kind, considerate, selfless man!
Apparently I need to be more specific about what I'm looking for:
ATTRACTIVE is above, so please don't waste my time otherwise. I'm not trying to be a snob, but I'm really busy and just don't have time for overweight, old, unattractive guys.
That being said, I don't care about age as long as you're decent looking. I'm not expecting Brad Pitt, but would like to have at least an average looking man!"

[herbgeek]

This one is a real gem (though not all that uncommon).

How is this significantly different from what you've posted YOU want?

[Ultralight]

How is this significantly different from what you've posted YOU want?

"I am an avid reader, fisherman, and rescue dog enthusiast. I live simply and enjoy minimalism.


I have gotten into traveling recently -- just a backpack and a plane ticket is my style. In the past couple years I have gone to Israel, Cuba, Jordan, Argentina, and Uruguay. I have also been to England, Spain, Costa Rica, Canada, Aruba, and Portugal. My next trip is either Iceland or Panama!


I love all kinds of music -- yacht rock, disco, funk, folk, outlaw country, and so on.


I am looking for a serious relationship that will lead to a life partnership. What I value most in a significant other are empathy, a sense of humor, shared values, and a mutual physical attraction.


Talk to me about travel, your dog, or any book you're reading."

[Ultralight]

"I am tired of doing for everyone else all the time and settling. I want an attractive, hard working, loving, kind, considerate, selfless man!
Apparently I need to be more specific about what I'm looking for:
ATTRACTIVE is above, so please don't waste my time otherwise. I'm not trying to be a snob, but I'm really busy and just don't have time for overweight, old, unattractive guys.
That being said, I don't care about age as long as you're decent looking. I'm not expecting Brad Pitt, but would like to have at least an average looking man!"


Let's rewrite this and switch the genders around to see how it sounds. lol

"I am tired of taking care of my own business. I don't want to settle. I want an attractive, hard working, loving, kind, considerate, selfless woman!
Apparently I need to be more specific about what I'm looking for:
SEX & HOT is above, so please don't waste my time if you are not sexy & hot. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm really busy and just don't have time for overweight, old, unattractive women.
That being said, I don't care that much about age as long as you're an okay-looking woman. I'm not expecting Scarlet Johansson, but would like to have at least an average looking woman!"

Wouldn't a guy who said this be considered a complete and total a-hole? lol

[herbgeek]

I'm talking about what you've said you want, not what you publicly post on your dating profile. You've been pretty clear that you will not date a fat woman. You've mentioned a preference for black women. You have very specific preferences on habits and interests. How is that different from someone indicating their preferences on appearances?

[SteveinMN]

Wouldn't a guy who said this be considered a complete and total a-hole? lol
The "a-hole quotient" is measurable in both genders.

The profile you quoted is similar to ones which warned me (when I was reading on-line dating profiles) to think at least twice before initiating contact with the writer. I didn't want to play the game of "do I qualify based on criteria which are totally subjective? How old is "old" and what constitutes "unattractive"?". This person obviously has not had her expectations met in the past so she has become pretty blunt about getting what she wants. I know people on dating sites are "aspirational" but how does one know if one is "too" unattractive? Time magazine? Hot or Not? Committee of one? But, as mentioned, that train runs in both directions.


Women often say things like:
"He needs to step up and be a real man and help take care of her daughter!"
"She could do so much better! He doesn't even help take care of her daughter!"
It was clear to me when I was dating women with kids was that (in almost all cases) the kids already had fathers. Especially with the teenagers, who were largely independent (didn't need help eating or getting dressed or doing homework), I would be another adult in their lives but not their dad, with his input on education, financial participation, etc. Not that I couldn't model successful adult behavior or help out or take an interest in their lives, but my position would be different and it would be up to the child to decide how much of a role I played in their life.

If this friend has been okay with this situation for a year of dating, it's no one else's business how much of a "dad" role the guy takes or wants. They end up dating him; they can establish the rules.

[Chicken lady]

Did UL say he wouldn’t date fat women? I missed that.

my friend in Cleveland said she isn’t ready to date men over 50 (she’s 47). My dh is 52. i told her “well, I hate to tell you, but that’s your demographic. Personally, i’m a fan.”

[herbgeek]

Did UL say he wouldn’t date fat women? I missed that.

He made pejorative comments about fat women singles. I made the assumption that that means he wouldn't date them.

[Tenngal]

"I am an avid reader, fisherman, and rescue dog enthusiast. I live simply and enjoy minimalism.


I have gotten into traveling recently -- just a backpack and a plane ticket is my style. In the past couple years I have gone to Israel, Cuba, Jordan, Argentina, and Uruguay. I have also been to England, Spain, Costa Rica, Canada, Aruba, and Portugal. My next trip is either Iceland or Panama!


I love all kinds of music -- yacht rock, disco, funk, folk, outlaw country, and so on.


I am looking for a serious relationship that will lead to a life partnership. What I value most in a significant other are empathy, a sense of humor, shared values, and a mutual physical attraction.


Talk to me about travel, your dog, or any book you're reading."


I like it. Gives me an idea of who you are.

[iris lilies]

He made pejorative comments about fat women singles. I made the assumption that that means he wouldn't date them.
He like curvy women.He dates them.

Probably he has an idea of weight limit, as would I in the dating world.He would likley like women who could haul around their backpack on a walking European trip, and not all large people are willing to do that.

[herbgeek]

IL my point was: he has ideals and standards, but it appears to me that he was pointing out (in what I read as a complaining tone) that someone else in a profile mentioned they had particular standards. It seems hypocritical to me about complaining about something, when you do the same thing. I wasn't judging on what the preferences actually were.

[iris lilies]

IL my point was: he has ideals and standards, but it appears to me that he was pointing out (in what I read as a complaining tone) that someone else in a profile mentioned they had particular standards. It seems hypocritical to me about complaining about something, when you do the same thing. I wasn't judging on what the preferences actually were.
Oh ok, well,
I agree that UL certainly has requirements.

[Ultralight]

I'm talking about what you've said you want, not what you publicly post on your dating profile. You've been pretty clear that you will not date a fat woman. You've mentioned a preference for black women. You have very specific preferences on habits and interests. How is that different from someone indicating their preferences on appearances?

What have I said I want?

Where and when did I say I would "not date a fat woman?"

I do have a preference for black women. But I am sincerely trying to be more open minded and less superficial. I am focusing more on personality and values because I think that is what really counts when looking for a life partner.

[Ultralight]

Did UL say he wouldn’t date fat women? I missed that.


You didn't miss it. I never said it.

[Ultralight]

He made pejorative comments about fat women singles.

I challenge you to prove this accusation.

[Ultralight]

He like curvy women.He dates them.

Probably he has an idea of weight limit, as would I in the dating world.He would likley like women who could haul around their backpack on a walking European trip, and not all large people are willing to do that.

My most recent girlfriend was 5'3" and 180 lbs. I am 5'9" and 195 lbs. That paints a picture.

[Dave B]

After the fizzling-out of my most recent romance I was thinking about strategies for coping with being alone in the long term.

Now, I am not just talking about feeling lonesome. I am talking about the emotional, mental, logistical, financial, etc. issues that come with being alone/living alone for the long term.

Yesterday I was eating a big bite of baked salmon when it, just for a second, got caught in my throat. I could not inhale or exhale. I managed to cough it up. But had I begun to really choke, I could have died as there is no one to help me.

I welcome suggestions from you all about how to deal with the emotional, mental, logistical, financial, etc. issues of being alone long term.

As always: Snark is welcome, but I do want real ideas too!

Several years ago a man in his late fifties died in my town. He was newly retired and moved here from Ohio, having bought a small condo, and had his bills on auto pay. He died in his condo and no one knew until his sister contacted the Sherriff's Department and asked them to do a wellness check because she could not contact him. An autopsy showed that he had died about eighteen months earlier of what they believe was a heart attack. Unfortunately, your fears are rational.

[sweetana3]

There are more of these stories than we probably know. This was just in the Alaska papers. https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2018/08/31/he-withdrew-from-his-friends-and-neighbors-when-he-died-in-his-fairbanks-house-no-one-noticed-for-years/

[Teacher Terry]

Your GF was fat as I am 5’7’’ and the same weight. I am also fat. So that dispenses with that myth.

[Gardnr]

If you don't figure out why past relationships ended, you won't have a future long-lasting relationship.

[Gardnr]

"I am an avid reader, fisherman, and rescue dog enthusiast. I live simply and enjoy minimalism.


I have gotten into traveling recently -- just a backpack and a plane ticket is my style. In the past couple years I have gone to Israel, Cuba, Jordan, Argentina, and Uruguay. I have also been to England, Spain, Costa Rica, Canada, Aruba, and Portugal. My next trip is either Iceland or Panama!


I love all kinds of music -- yacht rock, disco, funk, folk, outlaw country, and so on.


I am looking for a serious relationship that will lead to a life partnership. What I value most in a significant other are empathy, a sense of humor, shared values, and a mutual physical attraction.


Talk to me about travel, your dog, or any book you're reading."

You left out "no children"......that way you won't waste her time!

[catherine]

I like it. Gives me an idea of who you are.

I agree.

[Gardenarian]

Yacht rock?

[herbgeek]

Yacht rock on satellite radio is what we used to call soft rock. Lots of 70's, 80's radio songs.

[Ultralight]

Your GF was fat as I am 5’7’’ and the same weight. I am also fat. So that dispenses with that myth.

The myth that I am some "not fat chicks" hater type?

I would say she was "thick." But yeah, you get my point.

[Ultralight]

You left out "no children"......that way you won't waste her time!

It says that in a little side bar.

[Ultralight]

I met with "the minimalist mom" for a drink yesterday. We both showed up a couple minutes early with a book in hand. She told me she has a total of five towels and that she does not have a "real bed" but a memory foam mattress. She also has a small capsule wardrobe with just ten primary items. She only allows her daughter two gifts for birthdays and holidays -- "one material item and one experiential gift."

She does, however, engage in a form of minimalism I actually don't agree with: Bandit Purging.

[catherine]

What is Bandit Purging?

[Ultralight]

What is Bandit Purging?

That is when you purge someone else's stuff without their permission for their own damn good.

[Chicken lady]

Does she do that to her kid, or to other adults?

i’m pretty sure if you do that to other adults, it’s called “theft”. If you do it to your kid, (or other family members) imho, it’s called “violation of trust” and you’re asking for all kinds of issues now and later.

[Ultralight]

Does she do that to her kid, or to other adults?

i’m pretty sure if you do that to other adults, it’s called “theft”. If you do it to your kid, (or other family members) imho, it’s called “violation of trust” and you’re asking for all kinds of issues now and later.

She told us she purges her kid's old/excess clothes.

But another minimalist who was at the meeting later on told us how he is also a bandit purger. He purges stuff from his mom's hoarded basement.

[Chicken lady]

How old is the kid?

[Ultralight]

How old is the kid?

Six.

[Chicken lady]

Ok, at six the kid is only minimally able to make those decision about clothing. Hopefully the parent is involving her - to both help her learn to make good decisions and to respect her preferences, but it’s not a huge deal.

[Ultralight]

Ok, at six the kid is only minimally able to make those decision about clothing. Hopefully the parent is involving her - to both help her learn to make good decisions and to respect her preferences, but it’s not a huge deal.

Nope, that is how bandit purging works. The kid's clothes just disappear from their hangers.

[Ultralight]

The minimalist mom told me this when we were having a drink: "I might be an over-purger!"

I said: "No such thing!"

And we both giggled.