View Full Version : 2020 Presidential Candidates
I know plenty of older people who voted for Bernie.
I know plenty of older people who voted for Bernie.
I would have if I hadn't voted early for Elizabeth Warren before she dropped out.
Gabbard and Weld dropped out.
I see Bernie has dropped out, pretty much condemning us to a Trump/Biden contest. I don’t think we can expect much by way of memorable political oratory.
I see Bernie has dropped out, pretty much condemning us to a Trump/Biden contest. I don’t think we can expect much by way of memorable political oratory.
Now if there are two older Americans who would happen to die from corona, who I would not miss, it would be the "star" of the Access Hollywood tape and Tara Reade's assailant.
The Libertarians have selected Jo Jorgensen, who has described the US response to covid-19 as "the biggest assault on our liberties in our lifetime".
I am far from Joe Biden's biggest fan, but nothing--nothing--I have read about Tara Reade suggests she is credible. Nothing. She's about as credible as Rachel Dolezal.
I am far from Joe Biden's biggest fan, but nothing--nothing--I have read about Tara Reade suggests she is credible. Nothing. She's about as credible as Rachel Dolezal.
Interesting you brought up Rachel Dolezal. Now there is someone to whom Joe Biden could have legitimately said, "You ain't black" instead of directing his comment to African-Americans who disagree with him politically. The guy is a dolt.
Interesting you brought up Rachel Dolezal. Now there is someone to whom Joe Biden could have legitimately said, "You ain't black" instead of directing his comment to African-Americans who disagree with him politically. The guy is a dolt.
:D But he's our dolt...
It’s good to see people moving away from the accusation equals evidence paradigm.
frugal-one
5-25-20, 12:07pm
Interesting you brought up Rachel Dolezal. Now there is someone to whom Joe Biden could have legitimately said, "You ain't black" instead of directing his comment to African-Americans who disagree with him politically. The guy is a dolt.
Way better than what we have or those who have come forward so far!
Way better than what we have or those who have come forward so far!
Tough call. Trump or the man who proudly proclaimed “We choose truth over facts!”.
I’ll probably just vote Libertarian again.
Howie Hawkins looks like he may get the Green Party nomination and he looks good to me.
I see Kanye West announced his candidacy yesterday. Apparently he wasn’t aware that Joe Biden had previously explained that if you don’t vote for him you ain’t Black.
happystuff
7-5-20, 10:06am
I see Kanye West announced his candidacy yesterday. Apparently he wasn’t aware that Joe Biden had previously explained that if you don’t vote for him you ain’t Black.
Just what we need - another arrogant, idiotic president - as if the current one isn't bad enough. :doh:
Just what we need - another arrogant, idiotic president - as if the current one isn't bad enough. :doh:
I loved this response to the announcement, found on FB:
"I certainly can't speak for all Canadians, but our neighbors to the south sure are endlessly entertaining. Though, it is a bit like living in an apartment above a meth lab ..."
I loved this response to the announcement, found on FB:
"I certainly can't speak for all Canadians, but our neighbors to the south sure are endlessly entertaining. Though, it is a bit like living in an apartment above a meth lab ..."
Haha! That's great!
I actually hear (from not-necessarily-reputable sources) that he's doing it to siphon votes from Biden and help Trump win. He is known to be a Trump fan.
Tough call. Trump or the man who proudly proclaimed “We choose truth over facts!”.
I’ll probably just vote Libertarian again.
A few gaffes is not a big deal. What is a big deal is trump remaining in office.
A few gaffes is not a big deal.
That’s like saying Mozart wrote a few tunes.
Teacher Terry
7-6-20, 9:43pm
L, no not even close.
A few gaffes is not a big deal. What is a big deal is trump remaining in office.
Convincing LDahl that trump needs to be out of office is a waste of time. After all, he doesn’t think there’s really any difference in awfulness between trump and jimmy carter.
Convincing LDahl that trump needs to be out of office is a waste of time. After all, he doesn’t think there’s really any difference in awfulness between trump and jimmy carter.
We’ve been through this before. I would like to see Trump out of office. But I don’t see Biden as a palatable alternative. I don’t see why that is that so difficult to grasp
I regard Carter as a failed president who spent decades lecturing his successors about where they were going wrong.
frugal-one
7-7-20, 12:28pm
We’ve been through this before. I would like to see Trump out of office. But I don’t see Biden as a palatable alternative. I don’t see why that is that so difficult to grasp
I regard Carter as a failed president who spent decades lecturing his successors about where they were going wrong.
trump has to go. People like you are going to make it possible for him to stay in office. What is there to get? Obviously, Biden is not the ideal candidate but he is a million times better than trump. You need to pick your poison with the few options available. trump has problems.... possibly frontotemporal dementia???? That, at least, would explain some of his behavior.
I am seeing bipartisan dementia, but what do I know?
Teacher Terry
7-7-20, 1:36pm
L lives in a state where his vote counts so a vote for a third party candidate is a vote for trump.
I am seeing bipartisan dementia, but what do I know?
Tybee, am I remembering correctly you are in South Carolina? If so, are you familiar with the Libertarian candidate Jo Jorgensen from that state and do you have an opinion on her?
Tybee, am I remembering correctly you are in South Carolina? If so, are you familiar with the Libertarian candidate Jo Jorgensen from that state and do you have an opinion on her?
We actually moved from SC a few years ago and I cannot tell you anything about her, sorry!
I am seeing bipartisan dementia, but what do I know?
I can't get it to paste .... so look up frontotemporal dementia. Other than the obvious, trump's stance is also an indicator.
Teacher Terry
7-7-20, 4:22pm
If Biden picks a good VP it won’t matter if he has dementia. Many health experts have been saying that about trump for a long time. It would explain his contradictions.
Well thank goodness we now have Kanye as a third option! :laff:
A lot of observers think Trump has dementia. Maybe he does, but he has a long history of drug abuse, with witnesses, as well.
A lot of observers think Trump has dementia. Maybe he does, but he has a long history of drug abuse, with witnesses, as well.
Really??? I thought he was a teetotaler, partially influenced by his alcoholic brother's death.
iris lilies
7-8-20, 12:20pm
Really??? I thought he was a teetotaler, partially influenced by his alcoholic brother's death.
Donald Trump is open about his vices.
Women.
Teacher Terry
7-8-20, 12:32pm
Trump abuses adavan.
L lives in a state where his vote counts so a vote for a third party candidate is a vote for trump.
I used to think that way, but have recently come to the conclusion that it may be short-sighted. If I want a particular governing philosophy to be advanced in the long term, I believe I should vote for the candidates who reflect it most closely, even if their chances in the immediate future are low. Otherwise the ultimate result is the ghastly regression to the political mean we see right now with the two dominant party candidates.
iris lilies
7-8-20, 1:15pm
I used to think that way, but have recently come to the conclusion that it may be short-sighted. If I want a particular governing philosophy to be advanced in the long term, I believe I should vote for the candidates who reflect it most closely, even if their chances in the immediate future are low. Otherwise the ultimate result is the ghastly regression to the political mean we see right now with the two dominant party candidates.
Teacher Terry’s comment is what both of my Trump supporting friendS told me when I said
i wouldnt be voting for Trump. Only their response was “a vote for 3rd party is a vote for Hilary.”
Some people, on both sides of the aisle, are black-and-white thinkers In The Now so seeing the national political scene thru that view is predictably limited.
And once again ldahl shows himself to be more optimistic than I am. There’s no chance in hell that any candidate he would approve of will ever become president. Yet he holds out hope for the impossible.
And in the meantime seems to believe that a Biden presidency will be equally destructive to the country as a second term trump presidency.
And in the meantime seems to believe that a Biden presidency will be equally destructive to the country as a second term trump presidency.
I confess to not being much of a Biden fan, but I'm curious what policy or issues do you think Biden would perform so poorly? I suppose quite a few of his intention have become evident in the debates and news. I basically just don't like his personality.
Adderall--crushed and snorted, usually.
As everyone knows--and Mary Trump's bio points out--he lies constantly, so his claims of sobriety are moot.
And once again ldahl shows himself to be more optimistic than I am. There’s no chance in hell that any candidate he would approve of will ever become president. Yet he holds out hope for the impossible.
And in the meantime seems to believe that a Biden presidency will be equally destructive to the country as a second term trump presidency.
While a Coolidge or a Reagan only comes along once in a lifetime, I don’t see it as outside the realm of possibility that a decent conservative could get elected. Certainly better than what’s on offer now.
And yes, I could see Biden as combining the character defects of Trump with the increasingly collectivist trends within his party as being at least as destructive in the long term as the current gaudy chaos.
iris lilies
7-8-20, 2:39pm
While I will not clutch my pearls at the impending downfall of our country if Joe Biden end up in the White House, I absolutely believe the Dow and accompanying institutions, businesses, and etc. will plunge. The business environment will be less friendly for business. That will take a toll.
I confess to not being much of a Biden fan, but I'm curious what policy or issues do you think Biden would perform so poorly? I suppose quite a few of his intention have become evident in the debates and news. I basically just don't like his personality.
I'm not the one that thinks biden will perform especially poorly. I'll leave it to others to explain how biden will be equally awful as a president who lies perpetually, doesn't believe in the rule of law and most certainly has never read the constitution, barely acknowledges the existence of a pandemic much less listens to experts on how best to respond to it, extorts foreign allies by witholding duly appropriated military aid for personal electoral gain, ignores it when Russia pays bounties for dead American soldiers, treats immigrants like animals, locking children in cages without adult care or basic necessities like toothbrushes, sucks up as much taxpayer money for personal benefit as it possible, has corrupted the function of the DOJ to become his personal law firm and attack dog and only hires the stupidest and most corrupt a$$holes to run everything.
But sure, some people don't like trump at all but think Biden will be just as bad. I'll let them explain how.
I'm not the one that thinks biden will perform especially poorly. I'll leave it to others to explain how biden will be equally awful as a president who lies perpetually, doesn't believe in the rule of law and most certainly has never read the constitution, barely acknowledges the existence of a pandemic much less listens to experts on how best to respond to it, extorts foreign allies by witholding duly appropriated military aid for personal electoral gain, ignores it when Russia pays bounties for dead American soldiers, treats immigrants like animals, locking children in cages without adult care or basic necessities like toothbrushes, sucks up as much taxpayer money for personal benefit as it possible, has corrupted the function of the DOJ to become his personal law firm and attack dog and only hires the stupidest and most corrupt a$$holes to run everything.
But sure, some people don't like trump at all but think Biden will be just as bad. I'll let them explain how.
No one could be as bad as trump. The above shows why he should be gone. Economy (he came along when it was on the upswing anyways) should not be the reason to vote for him. As others I know only will vote for him because of the abortion issue. Moronic.
I used to think that way, but have recently come to the conclusion that it may be short-sighted. If I want a particular governing philosophy to be advanced in the long term, I believe I should vote for the candidates who reflect it most closely, even if their chances in the immediate future are low. Otherwise the ultimate result is the ghastly regression to the political mean we see right now with the two dominant party candidates.
+1
happystuff
7-9-20, 10:28am
I used to think that way, but have recently come to the conclusion that it may be short-sighted. If I want a particular governing philosophy to be advanced in the long term, I believe I should vote for the candidates who reflect it most closely, even if their chances in the immediate future are low. Otherwise the ultimate result is the ghastly regression to the political mean we see right now with the two dominant party candidates.
In my opinion, I do believe that this will lead to Trump gaining another victory, during which he will do his best to follow in his friend Putin's footsteps to become "President for Life" (or at least extended beyond the current limits). Now lots of folks will pooh-pooh that ever happening, but Trump actually BECOMING President was also pooh-poohed.
So, yes, you may see the demise of the two dominant party candidates, but I think it will be because Trump obtains his long-desired dictatorial position.
And, again, to some this sounds very far-fetched, but so did Trump becoming President in the first place.
Edited to add: Only time will prove me wrong and I REALLY hope it does!!
iris lilies
7-9-20, 11:25am
HappyStuff, I will only point out that it might be confirmation bias that led you to think Trump would not enter the White House. You didn't want him to, the sources you read didn't want him to, your circle of friends talked about that impossibility, etc so you heard what you wanted to hear.
I am reminded of Bernie Goldberg, a former news producer for CBS who recounted in his book about the George
Bush elections. In his little circle of liberal elite Eastern seaboard journalists, no one could comprehend Why anyone would vote for Bush, so it was assumed among those elites that it wouldnt happen. They were shocked both times.
I guess we saw the same phenomena with Hilary.
Me, I have no doubt that if Trump is defeated he will make noise and twitter flutters about a rigged election, he aint going anywhere, etc all the while, Melania will have been packing to get the hell out of Dodge. And they will be gone.
What The Donald tweets and what The Donald does is often at odds.
ApatheticNoMore
7-9-20, 11:31am
It's easy to think nothing could be worse than Trump in the emotion of the moment. And it actually is quite possible nothing could be worse than him because he not only has bad policies (which we are more than used to) but is also astoundingly incompetent and personality disordered. Most leaders may do their fair share of damage to many of the non-rich people of this country, but don't view in their interest to destroy the country entirely. While much of the rest of the world may not mind if the U.S. goes down, we have to live here, so even if we live in the maids quarters, burning down the house while we are living in it really sucks. That's the Trump administration.
But on Biden and policy. He has called for Social Security cuts on 3 separate occasions. Noone can afford this, the people in this country can't take any more cuts to it's threadbare safety net, we are going to have old people in the streets soon if this continues. So the present with Trump is incredibly bleak and the future with Biden might be bleak too. I mean you can deprive people of everything by straight out killing them en masse via a pandemic, which is not an option most of the powers that be would even choose frankly - it's all on Trump, and you can deprive people of everything by a non-ending stream of policies stacked against them too, which we have under Trump as well, but which we might have under Biden too.
But thinking one is contributing to the furthering of anything by voting 3rd party is pretty silly. It's a protest vote period. I live in a solid state so it's without any consequences to protest vote, but that's ALL it is, it's just saying "I don't like these choices". It's not contributing to anything. 3rd parties can't even win down ticket races, trust me they aren't going to be Prez.
As for economic destruction, you REALLY you can't beat Trump on that. Nothing is destroying more businesses than the current pandemic AND the economic handling of it. That's why I say as bad as our rulers tend to be, most of them don't want the wholesale destruction of the country, but Trump OTOH .... Everyone probably knows business that have closed locally from it and more to come. More people are going to be driven to eviction and homelessness soon. Businesses being closed is on the ground reality, go take a nice safe social distancing walk or drive, and you can see it. If the stock and bond etc. markets are doing ok it is because they are receiving a non-ending stream of government money and so don't reflect reality in the slightest. Problem is plenty of people live in the reality on the ground of businesses closing, people being evicted etc. etc.. Most countries are acting to preserve their actual economies in this pandemic and will, the U.S. just transfers funny money to the markets via the Fed until it no longer represents anything real. I mean it's like while other countries tend to reality, we've decided to no longer even bother with having an actual economy, but to all get high on our own supply, like an addict who doesn't even notice their actual life is in shambles.
happystuff
7-9-20, 12:04pm
HappyStuff, I will only point out that it might be confirmation bias that led you to think Trump would not enter the White House. You didn't want him to, the sources you read didn't want him to, your circle of friends talked about that impossibility, etc so you heard what you wanted to hear.
Absolutely! I definitely have a bias, and a fear, and a dread, and a hope - everyone does. Hence, why I always try to use the words "in my opinion".
"Most countries are acting to preserve their actual economies in this pandemic and will, the U.S. just transfers funny money to the markets via the Fed until it no longer represents anything real. I mean it's like while other countries tend to reality, we've decided to no longer even bother with having an actual economy, but to all get high on our own supply, like an addict who doesn't even notice their actual life is in shambles."
The whole post was excellent, but this part seems to me particularly so. The pandemic response here has been so inept and chaotic, it almost seems deliberate. Talk about watching a slow motion train wreck.
I was under the impression that the funny money approach was fairly popular internationally. What are other countries doing differently?
ApatheticNoMore
7-9-20, 2:27pm
Denmark paid people to furlough through the pandemic so that their jobs were waiting for them to get back to after the pandemic, people didn't lose jobs and have to start all over, then brought down the pandemic of course. Canada paid people 2k a month so they could pay rent etc.. during the pandemic, still is I believe, then worked on bringing the pandemic down. We can't do any of this. And it's not that those countries are so perfect, it's just that here is such a complete disaster. And the economic damage and the pandemic continue without end, demand destruction etc. Who pray tell is going to have any money to spend when this is done with people racking up debt on unpaid rent, losing jobs etc., with little money to spend there goes the economy, never mind restaurants closed reopened closed again and again, people afraid to frequent many businesses because there still is a very active pandemic going on etc..
Teacher Terry
7-9-20, 2:33pm
I totally agree Happy.
I was under the impression that the funny money approach was fairly popular internationally. What are other countries doing differently?
Other countries are universally masked and diligently testing and contact tracing. Also, they have sufficient PPE and follow the lead of doctors and scientists. Along with the afore-mentioned pandemic stipends to preserve jobs (not crony payoffs). In other words, everything we failed miserably at.
I used to think that way, but have recently come to the conclusion that it may be short-sighted. If I want a particular governing philosophy to be advanced in the long term, I believe I should vote for the candidates who reflect it most closely, even if their chances in the immediate future are low. Otherwise the ultimate result is the ghastly regression to the political mean we see right now with the two dominant party candidates.
And it will stay that way. Your vote is meaningless.
HappyStuff, I will only point out that it might be confirmation bias that led you to think Trump would not enter the White House. You didn't want him to, the sources you read didn't want him to, your circle of friends talked about that impossibility, etc so you heard what you wanted to hear.
I am reminded of Bernie Goldberg, a former news producer for CBS who recounted in his book about the George
Bush elections. In his little circle of liberal elite Eastern seaboard journalists, no one could comprehend Why anyone would vote for Bush, so it was assumed among those elites that it wouldnt happen. They were shocked both times.
I guess we saw the same phenomena with Hilary.
Me, I have no doubt that if Trump is defeated he will make noise and twitter flutters about a rigged election, he aint going anywhere, etc all the while, Melania will have been packing to get the hell out of Dodge. And they will be gone.
What The Donald tweets and what The Donald does is often at odds.
That alone should make you shudder!
And it will stay that way. Your vote is meaningless.
I disagree, using your vote to reflect your preferred philosophy seems to me to be every citizens ultimate responsibility. Voting for someone who simply tells you what you want to hear seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility.
I disagree, using your vote to reflect your preferred philosophy seems to me to be every citizens ultimate responsibility. Voting for someone who simply tells you what you want to hear seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility.
This is what privilege sounds like. People for whom the election results could potentially cause personal harm are likely to be more pragmatic in their choice.
This is what privilege sounds like. People for whom the election results could potentially cause personal harm are likely to be more pragmatic in their choice.I think true privilege is being able to be pragmatic in your choice although I don't expect anyone accusing others of privilege to recognize that.
I think true privilege is being able to be pragmatic in your choice although I don't expect anyone accusing others of privilege to recognize that.
I suppose it is when compared to people living in Russia or somewhere else who don't have the luxury of choosing the candidate least likely to make themselves or their loved ones dead or seriously harmed.
I suppose it is when compared to people living in Russia or somewhere else who don't have the luxury of choosing the candidate least likely to make themselves or their loved ones dead or seriously harmed.That's what I'll be doing, thanks for noticing.
That's what I'll be doing, thanks for noticing.
I suppose privilege is also having one's preferred candidate be the nominee of one of the two major parties.
I suppose privilege is also having one's preferred candidate be the nominee of one of the two major parties.I'll let you know if that happens, then you won't have to assume.
I'll let you know if that happens, then you won't have to assume.
If your preferred candidate is not one of the major party candidates than it's safe to assume that you're not concerned about either of them causing death or serious harm to yourself or a loved one. And now we've come full circle.
If your preferred candidate is not one of the major party candidates than it's safe to assume that you're not concerned about either of them causing death or serious harm to yourself or a loved one.
That reasoning and conclusion make no logical sense.
That reasoning and conclusion make no logical sense.
People's desire to not be dead tends to overrule their desire to "make a statement" by voting for a non-viable candidate. Undoubtedly there are people for whom that doesn't apply, but the majority of people will choose living another day over dying to make a point.
That reasoning and conclusion make no logical sense.
It makes sense if you accept the premise that your life depends on Joe Biden becoming president. Not only does that excuse you from considering the long term direction of the country, but you can also dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as a heartless monster blinded by privilege. It’s Orwell’s hedgehog analogy. Biden or death.
It makes sense if you accept the premise that your life depends on Joe Biden becoming president. Not only does that excuse you from considering the long term direction of the country, but you can also dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as a heartless monster blinded by privilege. It’s Orwell’s hedgehog analogy. Biden or death.
For people who work in meat packing plants, people whose loved ones are part of the DACA program, people who like having access to healthcare through the ACA and various other groups it probably is a potential matter of life and death.
ApatheticNoMore
7-10-20, 1:54pm
For people who work in meat packing plants, people whose loved ones are part of the DACA program, people who like having access to healthcare through the ACA and various other groups it probably is a potential matter of life and death
for people's whose healthcare though the ACA is not adequate nor affordable Sanders was the matter of life and death. Too late now. Now it's mostly just lesser evilism.
I once was in a discussion of debt with people I didn't know given free reign to talk about debt. I expected a lot of grumbling about student debt, semi first-world problems, as many people never even get to go to college (and if anyone lucky enough to afford a house dared to complain about a mortgage I would have hit them upside the head :) - ok only in my mind). But I learned the debt many were actually drowning under, even though most were young, was medical, they had bad luck of having a health problem.
Teacher Terry
7-10-20, 2:22pm
As JP stated this election might indeed be a life or death situation or at the very least big debt for medical reasons.
for people's whose healthcare though the ACA is not adequate nor affordable Sanders was the matter of life and death. Too late now. Now it's mostly just lesser evilism.
I agree. Now the choice is between a candidate who supports the ACA and a candidate actively trying to eliminate the ACA and a protest vote that will have no impact on the election. Those are the choices.
Imagine a no ACA, no better replacement, post covid world. Millions of people denied coverage for having the pre-existing condition of prior covid infection.
iris lilies
7-10-20, 3:09pm
I agree. Now the choice is between a candidate who supports the ACA and a candidate actively trying to eliminate the ACA and a protest vote that will have no impact on the election. Those are the choices.
Imagine a no ACA, no better replacement, post covid world. Millions of people denied coverage for having the pre-existing condition of prior covid infection.
If everyone I knew who could afford ACA coverage actually had insurance, I might agree with you. I personally think the pre-existing condition insurance is an obvious selling point of the ACA if not THE major selling point. But JP. Too many people just want the government to pay for everything. I’ve related my stories over the years I’ll people in my immediate circle, and now there’s three of them, who bitch and moan about the ACA. I’m done.
It’s not good enough, it will never be good enough, the subsidies will never be big enough, the government will never be able to provide enough.
Going along with that, my Swiss relatives bitch and moan about their poor coverage compared to the Germans.
ApatheticNoMore
7-10-20, 3:25pm
I had a hard time finding a doctor who would take it when using an ACA equivalent plan. So no that heap of flaming garbage isn't good enough.
I don't even know why I was chronically sick then (ha no it wasn't covid) because even when I got to doctors (some out of pocket) they didn't know, and it wasn't even fibromyalgia or some known unknown, it was the unknown unknown, except it eventually went away after a year. It could well have been some strange response to stress. I STRONGLY suspect it was working at an ex-toxic waste site (since the appearance and disappearance just about perfectly corresponds to that time - by hey correlation is not causation). My fault and all or something, I should have eaten more broccoli :~)
Teacher Terry
7-10-20, 3:28pm
I L, are you saying that you have friends that can afford ACA insurance and are going without it instead?
iris lilies
7-10-20, 4:17pm
I L, are you saying that you have friends that can afford ACA insurance and are going without it instead?
Of course!
I saw a study recently that found 45% of American adults were uninsured or under-insured as of 2018. That number hadn't significantly changed since 2016 which I believe we can safely call the Pre-Trump era. I think there may be elements of choice involved in that.
Teacher Terry
7-10-20, 4:27pm
I don’t know anyone doing that. I hate that our insurance takes a fourth of our gross income but no way would I ever go without insurance.
I saw a study recently that found 45% of American adults were uninsured or under-insured as of 2018. That number hadn't significantly changed since 2016 which I believe we can safely call the Pre-Trump era. I think there may be elements of choice involved in that.
You are indeed correct. Trump and the republicans have so far failed to kill the ACA. But like a bad horror film the zombies keep trying. Most recently a few weeks ago at the supreme court. Perhaps this time they will succeed. Just in time to run for reelection on a campaign of "we're taking away your healthcare protections during a pandemic! Vote for us!"
My sister-in-law works 2 part-time jobs. Neither provides insurance. And she cannot afford to buy it. She has rent, a car payment, gas, food and basic necessities covered. No mas.
iris lilies
7-10-20, 7:25pm
My sister-in-law works 2 part-time jobs. Neither provides insurance. And she cannot afford to buy it. She has rent, a car payment, gas, food and basic necessities covered. No mas.
One year our income was around $30,000, and our health insurance was Nearly fully subsidized through the ACA, if I remember correctly.
What is your Sister-in-law’s income?
I know working adults who do not have health insurance. But they have paid for motorcycle and luxury automobile.
I know people who do not have health insurance but they own multiple rental properties, free and clear.
There are people on this website, and I’m not going to name names, who said they can’t afford it. But they have similar assets to those I’ve named above and income streams.
The refrain “ I can’t afford it” Is what I am skeptical about. Especially since the whole premise of the ACA was that we were all supposed to pool together so that our premiums would cover the sickest among us. It really is not a very sharing system if people don’t do their fair share, is it?
I have another friend who I’ve talked about here before who has had easily $1 million worth of billable health care. She has no health insurance. After many years of cancer treatments, cancer treatments, and more cancer treatments, she was hit by a car as a pedestrian. That was expensive. And then she had back to back surgeries for gallbladder, appendicitis, and major dental work. Oral surgery. She is now diabetic due to all of the previous medications.
But she doesn’t have insurance For the reason that she doesn’t want it. She negotiates these costs down and pays them. She does have significant family resources, but the way she lives is super super simple. If she doesn’t mind me “I can’t afford it. “
Middle class Americans should be able to pay for their own health care--not insurance, care. Medications and all. Our system is not broken--it's rigged to provide maximum profit to a small, greedy segment of society. I'm thankful I've aged out of the gold-plated insurance racket.
Middle class Americans should be able to pay for their own health care--not insurance, care. Medications and all.
Why? What have you got against the insurance model? I don’t see how you could do it otherwise unless you got to the point of Walmart selling hip replacements for $199.98.
iris lilies
7-11-20, 12:24pm
Middle class Americans should be able to pay for their own health care--not insurance, care. Medications and all. Our system is not broken--it's rigged to provide maximum profit to a small, greedy segment of society. I'm thankful I've aged out of the gold-plated insurance racket.
Jane, the ACA put into place by your favorite president, Barack Obama, very much limited the profit cost of insurance companies and we all have seen refunds from that program, so who is making the profit?
Do you think that physicians should not be paid as much as they are? Specialist surgeons? Respiratory therapists? nurses?
I’m not saying you’re wrong necessarily I just wanna know who exactly in the chain of health care is being paid too much according to the Jane scale of appropriate income.
My larger continuing point about healthcare is that people will complain. No matter what. there’s complaining complaining complaining. We could offer Cadillac healthcare service to everyone in this goddamn country and I will hear nothing but a complaints. Whiners.
catherine
7-11-20, 12:35pm
Jane, the ACA put into place by your favorite president, Barack Obama, very much limited the profit cost of insurance companies and we all have seen refunds from that program, so who is making the profit?
Do you think that physicians should not be paid as much as they are? Specialist surgeons? Respiratory therapists? nurses?
I’m not saying you’re wrong necessarily I just wanna know who exactly in the chain of health care is being paid too much according to the Jane scale of appropriate income.
My larger continuing point about healthcare is that people will complain. No matter what. there’s complaining complaining complaining. We could offer Cadillac healthcare service to everyone in this goddamn country and I will hear nothing but a complaints. Whiners.
I was going to post this NYT article, "Employer-Based Healthcare, Meet Massive Unemployment," (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-medicare-for-all.html?action=click&block=more_in_recirc&impression_id=835995299&index=4&pgtype=Article®ion=footer) last week but never did, but it's a good response to your question, IL.
I really hope you aren't locked behind a paywall because it's worth reading.
In a nutshell:
"In other words, America has created the most expensive, least effective health care system in the modern world, and the most vulnerable Americans have been paying for that failure with their lives since long before the coronavirus came to town.
In many ways, of course, that system is no system at all. It’s a patchwork in which access to care depends on a roster of factors, including age, employment status and state of residence. It’s a free-for-all in which the prices of life-or-death essentials like insulin and heart surgery are set at whatever the market will bear*, and efforts to check those prices are routinely bludgeoned by interest groups that hold enormous sway over lawmakers. It’s a labyrinth in which consultants, billing clerks and administrators vastly outnumber medical professionals. And it’s a voracious beast that feeds American households with well-paying jobs, then devours them with insurmountable medical bills — often at their weakest moments."
*"Market will bear" is a bit misleading because really, no one entity is invested what the price is, except the managed care executives who try to tell doctors how to practice medicine.
First, let's eliminate insurance and all the costs that come with that.
Second, drugs in this country are way over-priced, partly due to incessant advertising, but mostly due to blatant greed.
I'm old enough to remember when people just paid for medical care, without much fuss. I'd like to return to that paradigm.
iris lilies
7-11-20, 1:15pm
First, let's eliminate insurance and all the costs that come with that.
Second, drugs in this country are way over-priced, partly due to incessant advertising, but mostly due to blatant greed.
I'm old enough to remember when people just paid for medical care, without much fuss. I'd like to return to that paradigm.
Babe, If you and I were running the world we would come up with all kinds of plans that we both agree to.
The populace has left that state of mind. Also, medical care has advanced beyond that which was when we were kids I don’t necessarily mean dress, I mean the operations and hip operations every time you turn around.
Katherine, I will spend some time with that article. Just skimming the premise, I don’t disagree with that necessarily, but it’s not just the managed-care people who are dictating treatment.
Babe, If you and I were running the world we would come up with all kinds of plans that we both agree to.
The populace has left that state of mind. Also, medical care has advanced beyond that which was when we were kids I don’t necessarily mean dress, I mean the operations and hip operations every time you turn around. ...
I couldn't agree more that there are way too many unnecessary appointments and procedures and operations and treatments. We've overmedicalized the human condition to the point that doctors perform like assembly lines. And, IMO, we're none the healthier for it.
iris lilies
7-11-20, 2:16pm
I couldn't agree more that there are way too many unnecessary appointments and procedures and operations and treatments. We've overmedicalized the human condition to the point that doctors perform like assembly lines. And, IMO, we're none the healthier for it.
Sure but I think you were not putting the responsibility where it lies.
The population, with its expectations of high-level treatment without solving their social problems of obesity smoking alcohol consumption. Obesity levels now do not touch what they were when we were children.
Expecting the medical community to give exactly the same treatments 50 years ago doesn’t seem practical to me, given the gend- up expectations of the citizen population.
My physician is a direct care physician because I theoretically like that model. No insurance company to dictate to her how to treat me. Or how not to treat me.
But we shall see if this is what I stick with long-term. Right now it’s an experiment.
Sure but I think you were not putting the responsibility where it lies.
The population, with its expectations of high-level treatment without solving their social problems of obesity smoking alcohol consumption. Obesity levels now do not touch what they were when we were children.
I don't buy this, that the population expects high level treatment without solving their social problems. I think most people now avoid going in if they can help it, as when they do, they are subjected to things like statins. I also think things like alcohol consumption relate to addictions and we have terrible addiction problems in our society with smoking, alcohol, and food, and I don't think those are merely personal issues--I think they are actual social problems, and community has been deconstructed, along with family support systems.
Anyway, everyone I know works hard to stay away from doctors and tries hard to solve problems before they get bigger, so maybe it just depends on who you know.
I agree with IL people have high expectations of what should be done for them, rather than taking responsibility for their health. A current example is covid. They don't want to stay home if they are high risk, so everyone else has to mask up. I pitied a clerk in the store today lifting her mask off her face and fanning herself because she was stationed near the door and it is brutally hot and humid. This was at J. C. Penney not an "essential" grocery store or pharmacy. No one is telling people lose weight or do other things to reduce their chance of a bad outcome from the virus.
I support a Medicare for all plan that covers basics and people can pay extra if they want extras. No it is not fair to lower income people but neither is the current system.
I'm a fat old broad, and all I expect from the medical community is to be left alone. If i have a medical problem I can't solve, I'll let them know. I've certainly not put any burdens on them so far.
Also, fat old broads did not just spring up this generation in my family...:~)
And our FOBs historically lived average or better lifespans, with little or no medical intervention.
Katherine, I will spend some time with that article. Just skimming the premise, I don’t disagree with that necessarily, but it’s not just the managed-care people who are dictating treatment.
Actually, that asterisk was mine... after talking to thousands of doctors and payers, I have come to the conclusion that managed care companies hogtie doctors and restrict patient access to many treatments. Getting approval for most branded medicines requires 2FTEs in doctor's offices and adds hours of administrative time to the doctors' days. I'm not saying that these medicines aren't overpriced and in many cases don't need some oversight, but it points to just one more layer of bureaucracy that someone has to pay for.
Teacher Terry
7-11-20, 3:30pm
It’s younger people that are packing bars, pools, etc and spreading the virus. Older people are being more careful. We are all in this together and the sooner everyone cooperates the sooner this will be over. Asian countries are used to wearing masks and are recovering much faster.
Around here the bars and wineries have been the big location where it might be spread. I guess stay out of bars and wineries!
Around here the bars and wineries have been the big location where it might be spread. I guess stay out of bars and wineries!
Any indoor space where one congregates with other people for any length of time is a bad idea. In a grocery store you may walk past an infected person but you're near them a few seconds and then they are not near you anymore. Bars, restaurants, winery tasting rooms, gyms, bowling alleys, churches, offices, planes, prisons, meat packing plants, trump rallies. All really risky places to go because you're indoors near other potentially infected people for longer periods of time. Most of these have already been traced as sources of a big spreading event. It's only a matter of time before the rest are as well.
ApatheticNoMore
7-11-20, 3:43pm
I'm a fat old broad, and all I expect from the medical community is to be left alone. If i have a medical problem I can't solve, I'll let them know. I've certainly not put any burdens on them so far.
Also, fat old broads did not just spring up this generation in my family...
And our FOBs historically lived average or better lifespans, with little or no medical intervention.
the personality responsibility thing is provably false anyway. Yes it's all well and good to follow the healthiest lifestyle one can afford and is able to make realistically doable considering few are perfect. Many things are correlated to say heart disease including diet etc., but the single largest correlation: socioeconomics. You can control for every personal variable in health outcomes, smoking rates, diet, exercise blah blah and still see an indepedent effect of poverty and racial discrimination (you can see racial discrimination even adjusting for economics!). Who dies more of covid, the poor, minorities, etc.. The elderly as well, but that really just is because of effects of aging probably. I say I think my job before made me temporarily sick, think, don't really know. And then generalize that, it was a cushy white collar job (well as cushy as contract work can be, contract work is REALLY stressful by definition), just in a reclaimed brown area that information about was still being suppressed (a website just up and vanished) - and generalize it to jobs with not just a speculated but a KNOWN exposure to toxic chemicals, and then talk to me about personal responsibility when people get sick making a dying. One estimate maybe nearly 70% of cancers due to lifestyle, but the rest, workplace exposure, genetics, pollution.
frugal-one
7-11-20, 5:09pm
I disagree, using your vote to reflect your preferred philosophy seems to me to be every citizens ultimate responsibility. Voting for someone who simply tells you what you want to hear seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility.
That is exactly why I can’t fathom anyone voting for trump. He flip flops on issues if he thinks it will help his re-election. Every day he does something unconscionable.
I'm not going to vote for Elizabeth Warren--though I think she'd make an outstanding president. Doing so wouldn't advance my ultimate goal, which is ridding the country of the scourge that is Trump. As I've said earlier, my days of voting for lost causes are over. This is far too important.
That is exactly why I can’t fathom anyone voting for trump. He flip flops on issues if he thinks it will help his re-election. Every day he does something unconscionable.
To be fair he hasn't flip flopped on every issue. He's been consistent on the issue of racism.
Teacher Terry
7-11-20, 8:59pm
Yea trump is consistently racist and delusional!!
He also hasn’t flip flopped in celebrating corruption and destroying the rule of law. It’s only on the more traditional issues Like policy issues that he’s a random flip flopper. But apparently his supporters don’t seem to care about those traditional issues, only the core things he’s stuck with all along.
happystuff
7-12-20, 10:18am
Yea trump is consistently racist and delusional!!
And simply hateful, mean, and nasty! He is a really unhappy man who seems to be intent on taking it out on the rest of the world. Part of me feels very sorry for him. I believe in karma (the Buddhist definition of karma) and he is going to have some serious effects from the causes he is generating.
iris lilies
7-12-20, 10:21am
And simply hateful, mean, and nasty! He is a really unhappy man who seems to be intent on taking it out on the rest of the world. Part of me feels very sorry for him. I believe in karma (the Buddhist definition of karma) and he is going to have some serious effects from the causes he is generating.
I don’t think Donald is unhappy at all.
happystuff
7-12-20, 10:23am
I don’t think Donald is unhappy at all.
He's not a full-fledged dictator yet - of course, he is unhappy!
I can understand the emotional weight behind the “Trump delenda est” fixation. And tactically, it’s easier to attack Trump than defend Biden. And vice versa. Both are venal, vain, vacuous, vicious liars. I also think there may be some belief that Biden could serve as a Trojan Horse for a VP with a more radical left wing agenda.
I have heard a number of explanations for the country’s ills. “Systemic racism”. Wealth inequality. Moral decay. A failing education system. Deficit spending. Elite overproduction. Even foreign subversion. I don’t see either candidate as having much capability of making inroads there. So I will use my vote to try to push the needle in a more helpful direction, thinking beyond November.
But have no fear. If my philosophy of government eventually prevails, you will have no shortage of things to frantically deplore.
Teacher Terry
7-12-20, 11:45am
L, I can’t believe that you are putting Biden in the same category as trump. Next you will say Carter was as bad as trump.
L, I can’t believe that you are putting Biden in the same category as trump. Next you will say Carter was as bad as trump.I think Carter was worse than Trump politically, he was just more likeable.
frugal-one
7-12-20, 2:13pm
I can understand the emotional weight behind the “Trump delenda est” fixation. And tactically, it’s easier to attack Trump than defend Biden. And vice versa. Both are venal, vain, vacuous, vicious liars. I also think there may be some belief that Biden could serve as a Trojan Horse for a VP with a more radical left wing agenda.
I have heard a number of explanations for the country’s ills. “Systemic racism”. Wealth inequality. Moral decay. A failing education system. Deficit spending. Elite overproduction. Even foreign subversion. I don’t see either candidate as having much capability of making inroads there. So I will use my vote to try to push the needle in a more helpful direction, thinking beyond November.
But have no fear. If my philosophy of government eventually prevails, you will have no shortage of things to frantically deplore.
This should be moved to the conspiracy theory thread.
I think Carter was worse than Trump politically, he was just more likeable.
That's a somewhat understandable sentiment since trump doesn't actually have much of a political agenda beyond putting as many partisan hack judges on the federal courts as he possibly can. And the only big piece of legislation that has passed during his presidency was the budget-busting tax cut for rich people.
His personal agenda, on the other hand, is bigly worse than Carter's, but some people don't seem to care much about that.
His personal agenda, on the other hand, is bigly worse than Carter's, but some people don't seem to care much about that.I think his only personal agenda is pissing off liberals, and as you might say he seems to be succeeding bigly. And you're right, outside of being amused I don't care much about that.
I think his only personal agenda is pissing off liberals, and as you might say he seems to be succeeding bigly. And you're right, outside of being amused I don't care much about that.
So conservatives are cool with rampant violations of the emoluments clause, don't care about the concept of equal justice under the law, and love the idea of firing all the inspectors generals who might call out his corruption, and firing or demoting anyone who dares point out his corruption. Cool. Good to know.
L, I can’t believe that you are putting Biden in the same category as trump. Next you will say Carter was as bad as trump.
Carter was too ineffectual to be as bad as Trump.
happystuff
7-12-20, 5:38pm
I think his only personal agenda is pissing off liberals, and as you might say he seems to be succeeding bigly. And you're right, outside of being amused I don't care much about that.
No, it's not. His personal agenda is to follow in the footsteps and reach the leadership *heights* of his friends, Putin and Kim Jung-Un. LOL
Teacher Terry
7-12-20, 5:48pm
Some of these posts would make me laugh because they are so ridiculous. But if not done in jest are actually sad.
happystuff
7-12-20, 5:55pm
Some of these posts would make me laugh because they are so ridiculous. But if not done in jest are actually sad.
I agree with you, TT. Even if I am one of those you think ridiculous! LOL
So conservatives are cool with rampant violations of the emoluments clause, don't care about the concept of equal justice under the law, and love the idea of firing all the inspectors generals who might call out his corruption, and firing or demoting anyone who dares point out his corruption. Cool. Good to know.I learned long ago that I didn't need to convince you of what a terrible person I am and can only strive to be as terrible as you think I am. ;)
Teacher Terry
7-12-20, 6:55pm
Happy, you aren’t one of them:))
happystuff
7-12-20, 7:03pm
Happy, you aren’t one of them:))
:cool: LOL.
Happy, you aren’t one of them:))
Oh we know who you're talking about and we're not at all bothered by it. :cool:
happystuff
7-12-20, 7:50pm
I learned long ago that I didn't need to convince you of what a terrible person I am and can only strive to be as terrible as you think I am. ;)
Rest assured - you are succeeding! :+1:
;) LOL.
iris lilies
7-12-20, 8:17pm
Carter was too ineffectual to be as bad as Trump.
That’s what was floating around in my head but I couldn’t bring it to a point but yeah that’s it.
Rest assured - you are succeeding! :+1:
;) LOL.
:thankyou: I was afraid I wasn't living up to my potential.
happystuff
7-12-20, 8:59pm
:thankyou: I was afraid I wasn't living up to my potential.
LOL - I doubt you harbored any such fears.
But, enough bantering. Have a good night.
I learned long ago that I didn't need to convince you of what a terrible person I am and can only strive to be as terrible as you think I am. ;)
And I’m super impressed at your deflection skills. I’m curious whether you Actually think trump hasn’t done the things I pointed out that he did or if you just don’t think they are a big deal. Of course I dont actually expect an answer since you never give one. You always give what you think is a witty sidestep.
And I’m super impressed at your deflection skills. I’m curious whether you Actually think trump hasn’t done the things I pointed out that he did or if you just don’t think they are a big deal. Of course I dont actually expect an answer since you never give one. You always give what you think is a witty sidestep.I think most of your allegations have a basis in truth and are a concern but the heights you reach are mostly wishful thinking. I blame the broadcast media and social media for that since nothing drives clicks and ratings like controversy, these days it's a nearly full time job trying to separate facts from speculation and outright propaganda. Throw in a touch of bias and propaganda wins and the hearts and minds of many are forever changed.
We can debate your allegations one by one if you wish and attempt to separate the wheat from the chaff. Let me know.
Teacher Terry
7-13-20, 12:35pm
I think a straight answer from Alan would be a refreshing change:))
I think a straight answer from Alan would be a refreshing change:))Ask me a question rather than make an accusation. That's the key to communication.
Teacher Terry
7-13-20, 12:38pm
I am waiting for you to address all the points previously mentioned by JP.
I am waiting for you to address all the points previously mentioned by JP.His point was that conservatives are ok with accusations which go beyond what facts reveal. I offered to discuss each in hopes of establishing where the truth lies but he hasn't responded to that. If I were to respond to his and your specific accusations I'd simply say "No, don't be silly" and be done with it.
Like the facts revealed Barack Obama was born in Hawaii of an American citizen mother. Many conservatives were happy to assert, repeatedly, that he was born in Kenya, with no mention of his mother's citizenship. I get it.
"Beyond what facts reveal" sounds like opening the door to Vince Foster, Pizzagate, Bill Gates' vaccine machinations, and myriad other QAnon/Russian troll farm conspiracy theories. Prove me wrong.
His point was that conservatives are ok with accusations which go beyond what facts reveal. I offered to discuss each in hopes of establishing where the truth lies but he hasn't responded to that. If I were to respond to his and your specific accusations I'd simply say "No, don't be silly" and be done with it.
If you haven’t seen all the things happen that I pointed out then you haven’t been paying attention and there’s no point discussing further.
Judging from the comments on Fox news articles about federal troops without badges grabbing random people off the streets in Portland and arresting them for exercising their first amendment rights, despite both the Oregon governor and Portland mayor asking that the troops be removed it appears that trumpers now fully support his desire to end federalism and descend into authoritarianism. Funny how all the things republicans supposedly hold dear have been found to be completely unimportant to them now.
Judging from the comments on Fox news articles about federal troops without badges grabbing random people off the streets in Portland and arresting them for exercising their first amendment rights, despite both the Oregon governor and Portland mayor asking that the troops be removed it appears that trumpers now fully support his desire to end federalism and descend into authoritarianism. Funny how all the things republicans supposedly hold dear have been found to be completely unimportant to them now.Haven't the peaceful protesters been defacing and destroying Federal property within the city limits? If so it seems appropriate to stop them if possible, especially since it's been going on for what, a month, and the Mayor showing no interest in putting them in check. The city has lost police stations and their justice center to arson and it's my understanding the Feds take a dimmer view of having the same happen to their properties.
I would think the residents of Portland would be ready to put all this foolishness behind them by now and possibly prefer a little law and order over rampant anarchy. But maybe not.
iris lilies
7-18-20, 3:59pm
They are still rioting in Portland?
hunh. Well that is silly.
ApatheticNoMore
7-18-20, 4:03pm
Funny how all the things republicans supposedly hold dear have been found to be completely unimportant to them now.
that's been completely obvious for years. That Republicans actually caring about civil liberties, ROFLOL.
I guess I'd like a few more details on this "people being disappeared by anonymous federal agents" business before I go all Solzhenitsyn on folks.
I guess I'd like a few more details on this "people being disappeared by anonymous federal agents" business before I go all Solzhenitsyn on folks.
It's been pretty well documented in Portland. With photos and videos. The governor, mayor, both senators, and the ACLU are firmly opposed. (And I don't see how anyone wouldn't be--what happened to "states' rights?" They seem to disappear when Republicans want them to.
People are still demonstrating peacefully. If there's any violence it's either agitators or Trump's Stasi that are causing it.
I filled out my application to vote by mail, a first for me, and will mail it in Monday.
It's been pretty well documented in Portland. With photos and videos.
I mean, details like:
- which agencies?
- operating under what legal authority?
- what precisely did they do?
- does that stray from the law?
- is there some rule-of-law remedy in progress?
Don't go Full Solzhenitsyn before doing the homework.
iris lilies
7-18-20, 4:43pm
I filled out my application to vote by mail, a first for me, and will mail it in Monday.
I debated about voting by mail in our next election coming up in a couple of weeks, but I have to notarize it. And while our neighborhood has set up a notary in a convenient, open air place for this event, I think by the time I go out to notarize it I might as well go in to the regular polling place to vote. These non major elections are always sparsely attended. When it comes to the November election I will likely vote absentee though because I don’t want to stand in those long lines.
DH is no longer working the polls, he is done with that madness.
ApatheticNoMore
7-18-20, 4:49pm
maybe we'll be able to vote by mail, maybe
https://apnews.com/59c25efd4d325c4895f8ba85517f9bfd
I mean, details like:
- which agencies?
- operating under what legal authority?
- what precisely did they do?
- does that stray from the law?
- is there some rule-of-law remedy in progress?
Don't go Full Solzhenitsyn before doing the homework.
They had no business being there, so the details are irrelevant. The ACLU and the Oregon AG are actively pursuing the case.
And I hope the peaceful protester they shot in the face with one of their "non-lethal" projectiles files suit against them; he'll surely need settlement money to pay for his reconstruction.
They had no business being there, so the details are irrelevant. The ACLU and the Oregon AG are actively pursuing the case.
My understanding is that Federal law enforcement agencies are allowed to operate inside the USA under some circumstances, so, the details really do matter.
I guess I'd like a few more details on this "people being disappeared by anonymous federal agents" business before I go all Solzhenitsyn on folks.
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/border-patrol-portland-arrest/ was one I read this morning. The story is also on npr, and oregon public radio, and Washington Post.
The particular person arrested was allegedly walking home at 2:30 in the am when apprehended. Not destroying anything.
It's just Trump brandishing his tiny mushroom ahead of the election, to invigorate his supporters. But, IMO, it's way down the slippery slope--we're not, or we shouldn't be--a police state.
Trump is beginning to see the writing on the wall, and he's testing the limits of his power. If he gets away with calling out his secret police in DC and Portland, he'll be emboldened to deploy them wholesale if the election doesn't go his way. Between his zombie army and the Russian hackers/disinformation artists, he's going to give it all he's got. Meanwhile, COVID19 rages unopposed.
Trump is beginning to see the writing on the wall, and he's testing the limits of his power. If he gets away with calling out his secret police in DC and Portland, he'll be emboldened to deploy them wholesale if the election doesn't go his way.
The trouble is - the pace of the news cycle and the outrage-of-the-day is much much faster than the pace of resolving these troublesome behaviors through rule-of-law, which can take weeks/months/years.
Some folks are quite good at exploiting this mismatch.
The trouble is - the pace of the news cycle and the outrage-of-the-day is much much faster than the pace of resolving these troublesome behaviors through rule-of-law, which can take weeks/months/years.
Some folks are quite good at exploiting this mismatch.
I agree. The rule of law is under siege. The Supreme Court is (surprisingly) holding up its end, and as the saying goes "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."
They had no business being there, so the details are irrelevant. The ACLU and the Oregon AG are actively pursuing the case.
How long must the peaceful protesters be allowed to damage federal property and commit violence against those trying to protect the property before they have business being there? https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-condemns-rampant-long-lasting-violence-portland
How long must the peaceful protesters be allowed to damage federal property and commit violence against those trying to protect the property before they have business being there? https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-condemns-rampant-long-lasting-violence-portland
See, those might be some of those circumstances that might well get the Feds entry to the party.
I debated about voting by mail in our next election coming up in a couple of weeks, but I have to notarize it. .
Do all absentee ballots in MO have to be notarized? If so, why?
The trouble is - the pace of the news cycle and the outrage-of-the-day is much much faster than the pace of resolving these troublesome behaviors through rule-of-law, which can take weeks/months/years.
Some folks are quite good at exploiting this mismatch.
We live in an age where the BBC can refer to 27 police officers injured in largely peaceful anti-racism demonstrations. Details and chronology matter little when we’ve already decided on the ascendant narrative.
iris lilies
7-19-20, 9:58am
Do all absentee ballots in MO have to be notarized? If so, why?
oh jp, you know very well why. Let’s say it together:
EVIL REPUBLICANS REQUIRE THAT COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY STEP TO KEEP UNDESIRABLES FROM VOTING!!!
amirite?
edited to add: but it’s not entirely true. People who are over the age of 65 are who have serious health conditions that keep them away from COVID-19 spreading crowds may vote absentee ballot without getting it notarized.
And then, there’s always the option of just going down to the voter election board whenever ballots are ready, many daysBefore Ifficial election day, and voting. It’s never crowded, it’s a big space, wear a mask, it’s easy.
frugal-one
7-19-20, 11:55am
maybe we'll be able to vote by mail, maybe
https://apnews.com/59c25efd4d325c4895f8ba85517f9bfd
Hopefully, trump will not get the PO in such condition or nonexistence by November. He, of course, wants to abolish the Post Office.
A friend of a friend was kidnapped in one of those fed sweeps a couple of nights ago, held and questioned for two hours. He had done nothing wrong, had not damaged property, but was picked out of a small group and hauled away. I guess we should be grateful he wasn't shot in the face. This is scary stuff, much like what I've read about the beginnings of totalitarianism.
If the feds are so worried about petty vandalism--such as graffiti--they can discuss the problem with authorities and encourage local police to patrol the building. There is absolutely no need to invade a sovereign state, unidentified, and terrorize peaceful protesters. None. According to my friend's reports, this is--and has been--merely a crowd of demonstrators. We still have the right to demonstrate, It's one of the few avenues left to us that can effect change.
My friend is the farthest thing from a bomb-thrower, being an UMC housewife, but she, and others, are being influenced by what they see around them.
I’ve been voting by mail in Arizona for 10 years. No notary required. This is not difficult.
I’ve been voting by mail in Arizona for 10 years. No notary required. This is not difficult.
It's how we've been voting in Washington for over a decade now, and it seems to work fine. We seemingly have some safeguards in place - I had a ballot bounced last year because my signature didn't match my signature on my voter registration card (due to a hand injury I had just received). I got a phone call and email about the issue to straighten things out.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/15/us/politics/washington-where-everyone-votes-by-mail.html
I’ve been voting by mail in Arizona for 10 years. No notary required. This is not difficult.
I've been doing the same in CA. I sign the envelope to verify my identity. The same as I would do for in person voting, as I did in the four other states that I have previously lived in since turning 18.
IL is really pushing vote by mail. I’ve already applied for it online. I love it. Hate standing in lines, even for early voting, under normal circumstances n
IL has you sign the envelope as well.
And you can verify that your ballot gets to its destination and is counted.
I remember in 2016 everyone was worried that the inevitable loser Trump would paint the election as illegitimate. And when he won, we got a torrent of reasons why the election was illegitimate. The FBI, Russian Intelligence, election equipment manufacturers, Fox News, massive voter suppression, domineering fathers and brothers and bosses, even the far-sighted fiends behind the Electoral College.
Sadder but wiser today, the forces of good (FOG) are still worried about sore-loser stories from Trump. But they are also preparing for the worst case this time: most of the old stuff is being recycled, along with some new material. Trump wants to defund the USPS to cripple voting by mail. His squadrons of black helicopter troops are conducting exercises in Portland. Who knows what inventive new theories we will hear between now and November?
I remember in 2016 everyone was worried that the inevitable loser Trump would paint the election as illegitimate. And when he won, we got a torrent of reasons why the election was illegitimate. The FBI, Russian Intelligence, election equipment manufacturers, Fox News, massive voter suppression, domineering fathers and brothers and bosses, even the far-sighted fiends behind the Electoral College.
Sadder but wiser today, the forces of good (FOG) are still worried about sore-loser stories from Trump. But they are also preparing for the worst case this time: most of the old stuff is being recycled, along with some new material. Trump wants to defund the USPS to cripple voting by mail. His squadrons of black helicopter troops are conducting exercises in Portland. Who knows what inventive new theories we will hear between now and November?
Which of these scenarios aren't being borne out? Trump himself wouldn't rule out refusing to leave office were he to be defeated.
Teacher Terry
7-20-20, 12:29pm
Yes those things are happening. Portland told the Feds to leave but they won’t comply.
Yes those things are happening. Portland told the Feds to leave but they won’t comply.The feds are responsible for all federal property in the city. Under what authority are they being asked to abandon it?
States' rights, bruh.
Oregon can clean up any graffiti on its own.
And Barr has announced his occupying army will be coming to a city near you soon. You can go out to meet them--no mask required.
States' rights, bruh.
I'm a huge believer in states rights but I'm not sure any state has a right to force another governmental entity to abandon its property or allow rampant vandalism. Is there precedent for that?
Along that same line, does a state have a right to allow vandalism to your private property while taking away your ability to protect it? If so, I think the people you've placed in charge of your state should be replaced democratically. States rights are ultimately the responsibility of its citizens.
Is there precedent for
Fort Sumter?
Fort Sumter?
Those that attacked that federal facility are now being hailed as traitors, undeserving of remembrance much less a place in history. I wonder if Portland's anarchists and their supporters are aware of the irony?
Those that attacked that federal facility are now being hailed as traitors, undeserving of remembrance much less a place in history. I wonder if Portland's anarchists and their supporters are aware of the irony?
The traitors from fort Sumter times deserve a place in history. Just not a place of honor.
Teacher Terry
7-20-20, 2:19pm
A 53 year old veteran was walking down the street not a part of the protests. He was beaten with a baton breaking his hand and pepper sprayed in the face. All of a sudden people loving states rights have changed their mind.
Re PDX: They are supposed to be guarding the Federal office building, but they are straying far from it.
A 53 year old veteran was walking down the street not a part of the protests. He was beaten with a baton breaking his hand and pepper sprayed in the face. All of a sudden people loving states rights have changed their mind.
According to the veteran, he approached an anonymous goon and reminded him of his military oath. The goon responded by breaking his hand.
frugal-one
7-20-20, 3:12pm
Yes those things are happening. Portland told the Feds to leave but they won’t comply.
Special agents in camouflage or dark clothing putting people in unmarked vans/cars. Crazy.....
According to the veteran, he approached an anonymous goon and reminded him of his military oath. The goon responded by breaking his hand.
Here's the video; it's shocking. I'm not sure why anymore.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/us/portland-protests-navy-christopher-david.html
Teacher Terry
7-20-20, 3:48pm
Our politicians and leaders in the military are culpable if they stand by and do nothing.
The traitors from fort Sumter times deserve a place in history. Just not a place of honor.
So 150 or so years of reconciliation and forgiving acceptance is suddenly washed away? This sudden need to voice our displeasure with our history and re-prosecute old grievances seems odd to me.
So 150 or so years of reconciliation and forgiving acceptance is suddenly washed away? This sudden need to voice our displeasure with our history and re-prosecute old grievances seems odd to me.
No, we’re finally treating these traitors with the amount of respect they should have been receiving all along.
No, we’re finally treating these traitors with the amount of respect they should have been receiving all along.So that's a yes?
So that's a yes?
If by history you mean the post war history where the traitors were treated like heroes, yes.
This man is treated like a hero in South Carolina, with lots of things named after him in Beaufort.
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-americans-many-rivers-to-cross/history/which-slave-sailed-himself-to-freedom/
As long as we are talking about heroes, and about South Carolina.
frugal-one
7-20-20, 6:00pm
Our politicians and leaders in the military are culpable if they stand by and do nothing.
This is NOT the military but trump enlisting federal agents.
The federal goons are supposedly in Portland to protect buildings. Totally unnecessary, but why aren't they just standing in front of the buildings, armed to the teeth, instead of going rogue, tear-gassing and kidnapping people? Trump's Stasi. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Trump's targeting Democrat-led cities, often headed by women. He's despicable.
The federal goons are supposedly in Portland to protect buildings. Totally unnecessary, but why aren't they just standing in front of the buildings, armed to the teeth, instead of going rogue, tear-gassing and kidnapping people? Trump's Stasi. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Trump's targeting Democrat-led cities, often headed by women. He's despicable.
It appears to me that they are pretty much just standing in front of the buildings and probably collecting video of hooligans which are then plucked out of crowds when they're seen again if they escape arrest while actively hooliganing. That's how this sort of thing is usually done.
I'm not sure why protecting those buildings is totally unnecessary given the destruction they're being subjected to on a nightly basis. I think there may be politics involved.
Of course there are politics involved. Trump has said publicly he wants to "dominate" Democrat-run (and apparently female-run) cities. He thinks his chest-beating and misogyny will play well with his base, and it probably will.
Reports out of Portland, found in local media, paint a very different picture than his ranting about "anarchists" running rampant (I notice he's given up on the scary "Antifa" rhetoric. I'm surprised he hasn't dragged in MS-13.
https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/feds-right-wing-media-paint-portland-as-city-under-siege-a-tour-of-town-shows-otherwise.html?fbclid=IwAR1QsYMf7q68SFGN5RX1ncDtkh TY2LPmuqKRDRKy5YbjvKqA20baGNOMoVs
Of course there are politics involved. Trump has said publicly he wants to "dominate" Democrat-run (and apparently female-run) cities. He thinks his chest-beating and misogyny will play well with his base, and it probably will.
Reports out of Portland, found in local media, paint a very different picture than his ranting about "anarchists" running rampant (I notice he's given up on the scary "Antifa" rhetoric. I'm surprised he hasn't dragged in MS-13.
https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/feds-right-wing-media-paint-portland-as-city-under-siege-a-tour-of-town-shows-otherwise.html?fbclid=IwAR1QsYMf7q68SFGN5RX1ncDtkh TY2LPmuqKRDRKy5YbjvKqA20baGNOMoVsSo it's only a 12 block area surrounding the Justice Center and Federal Courthouse that are the focus of the latest demonstrations and vandalism. How long do you think they'll continue the assault on that area, so far it's been something like 53 continuous days with the Feds involved for the last 10 or so days, and that only after the Mayor ordered the local police to scale back contact with demonstrators. Twenty Three Million $ in losses in the area seems like a lot for peaceful protests. I wonder what the final bill will be?
I also doubt there's anything inherently sexist in the federal response, if Republican city administrators (regardless of sex) were allowing the same sort of activities to continue against Federal property I suspect the Feds would step in to help combat it there as well. We'll probably never know.
Trump never misses a chance to call out "nasty" women--all Democrats, for some reason.
As far as I'm concerned citizens can demonstrate 365 days a year until they secure meaningful change. That's the way it has always worked--with civil rights, with Viet Nam, with women's suffrage, etc.
As far as I'm concerned citizens can demonstrate 365 days a year until they secure meaningful change.I agree, demonstrate all you want just leave your paint and bricks and bats and hammers at home and clean up after yourself before you go. No harm, no foul.
My son in Portland was at a peaceful demonstration in his neighborhood last week, 6.5 miles from the justice center. He was pepper sprayed and at one point they were charged by the police. He said they were eyeballing the crowd and pairs of police (or whatever they were) were going after specific people and taking them away.
I'm not buying that this is about protecting federal property down town or about vandalism. I was shocked by what he told me.
I'm not buying that this is about protecting federal property down town or about vandalism. I was shocked by what he told me.I think it's two separate things, it was probably local police 6.5 miles away and they were probably singling out people suspected of causing damage or violence. I have no doubt though that federal officers are doing the same in the vicinity of federal properties.
frugal-one
7-21-20, 1:28pm
So it's only a 12 block area surrounding the Justice Center and Federal Courthouse that are the focus of the latest demonstrations and vandalism. How long do you think they'll continue the assault on that area, so far it's been something like 53 continuous days with the Feds involved for the last 10 or so days, and that only after the Mayor ordered the local police to scale back contact with demonstrators. Twenty Three Million $ in losses in the area seems like a lot for peaceful protests. I wonder what the final bill will be?
I also doubt there's anything inherently sexist in the federal response, if Republican city administrators (regardless of sex) were allowing the same sort of activities to continue against Federal property I suspect the Feds would step in to help combat it there as well. We'll probably never know.
Just read this ... Titled: Portland wants agents to leave
Constitutional law experts said Monday the federal officers' actions are a "red flag" in what could become a test case of states' rights as the Trump administration expands its federal policing into other cities.
"it is a standard move of authoritarians to use the pretext of quelling violence to bring in force, thereby prompting a violent response and then bootstrapping the initial use of force in the first place," said Michael Dorf, a professor of constitutional law at Cornell University.
Portland's Democratic mayor said federal officers "are not wanted here." "We haven't asked them here. In fact, we want them to leave, " Ted Wheeler said.
President Donald Trump said he plans to send federal agents to other cities as well. The Chicano Tribune, citing anonymous sources reported Monday that Trump planned to deploy 150 federal agents to Chicago. The article goes on......
"I have talked to the mayor of Portland (and) we don't need federal agents without any insignia taking people off the street and holding them, I think, unlawfully," Lightfoot added.
Top leaders in the US House said Sunday they were "alarmed" by the Trump administration's tactics in Portland and other cities. They've called on federal inspectors general to investigate.
Just read this ... Titled: Portland wants agents to leave
Constitutional law experts said Monday the federal officers' actions are a "red flag" in what could become a test case of states' rights as the Trump administration expands its federal policing into other cities.
"it is a standard move of authoritarians to use the pretext of quelling violence to bring in force, thereby prompting a violent response and then bootstrapping the initial use of force in the first place," said Michael Dorf, a professor of constitutional law at Cornell University.
Portland's Democratic mayor said federal officers "are not wanted here." "We haven't asked them here. In fact, we want them to leave, " Ted Wheeler said.
President Donald Trump said he plans to send federal agents to other cities as well. The Chicano Tribune, citing anonymous sources reported Monday that Trump planned to deploy 150 federal agents to Chicago. The article goes on......
"I have talked to the mayor of Portland (and) we don't need federal agents without any insignia taking people off the street and holding them, I think, unlawfully," Lightfoot added.
Top leaders in the US House said Sunday they were "alarmed" by the Trump administration's tactics in Portland and other cities. They've called on federal inspectors general to investigate.
I don't know about that, Federal officers have operated in cities for years and years. US Marshalls are tasked with policing Federal courthouses, my city's local Federal Reserve facility has federal officers tasked with providing security on its premises, US Park Service officers are responsible for security of federal monuments, etc. These are the same people everyone's talking about in Portland, probably with reinforcements from other areas, but the same organizations none-the-less.
To suggest that they shouldn't be allowed or that it is improper for them to do their jobs seems silly.
It just doesn't sound like that is what they are doing, from what my son told me about what happened to him. You are standing at a peaceful demonstration chanting, and you get pepper sprayed. That's not protecting anything.
It's ironic that people are demonstrating against systemic police brutality while police are demonstrating openly that brutality is their modus operandi.
I have no problem with arrests of individuals breaking the law, as long as those arrests are made as non-violently as possible. A few bad actors usually show up at demonstrations, often under false flags.
I agree, demonstrate all you want just leave your paint and bricks and bats and hammers at home and clean up after yourself before you go. No harm, no foul.
And don't throw the tea in the water?
Teacher Terry
7-21-20, 2:15pm
My sister in Chicago said that the protests had stopped but now started up again once trump announced his plan.
And don't throw the tea in the water?
Yeah, I wouldn't suggest it.
My sister in Chicago said that the protests had stopped but now started up again once trump announced his plan.Interestingly enough, someone has created a website to keep track of scheduled protests in Chicago. They're currently scheduled over a week out but apparently are removed from the list after each has taken place. The descriptions provided don't mention the nefarious plan to allow federal police to protect federal property. I'd love to see their archives. https://www.protestchicago.com/
frugal-one
7-21-20, 5:33pm
I don't know about that, Federal officers have operated in cities for years and years. US Marshalls are tasked with policing Federal courthouses, my city's local Federal Reserve facility has federal officers tasked with providing security on its premises, US Park Service officers are responsible for security of federal monuments, etc. These are the same people everyone's talking about in Portland, probably with reinforcements from other areas, but the same organizations none-the-less.
To suggest that they shouldn't be allowed or that it is improper for them to do their jobs seems silly.
This is not silly at all. These federal agents are not trained for this.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/507976-federal-agents-deployed-to-portland-did-not-have-training-in-riot
It was odd, I saw a Biden interview today, and he seemed to be speaking in complete sentences. Sort of refreshing.
Lt. General Russel Honore' weighed in on Trump's storm troopers in an interview last night. His opinion is that they're a disgrace to military personnel everywhere. Firing on our own citizens, dressing in ridiculous camouflage to intimidate. Totally unnecessary.
Yes--I'm not Biden's biggest fan, but he provides a refreshing contrast to what we're currently stuck with.
Lt. General Russel Honore' weighed in on Trump's storm troopers in an interview last night. His opinion is that they're a disgrace to military personnel everywhere. Firing on our own citizens, dressing in ridiculous camouflage to intimidate. Totally unnecessary.
Yes--I'm not Biden's biggest fan, but he provides a refreshing contrast to what we're currently stuck with.
It's actually a great tactical uniform, plenty of pockets and reinforcement everywhere. Camouflage uniforms were designed years and years ago for use in tropical or wooded environments but then started showing up in every environment in the 90's. But regardless of the pattern they beat the hell out of the old olive drabs I used to wear.
happystuff
7-22-20, 11:42am
It's actually a great tactical uniform, plenty of pockets and reinforcement everywhere. Camouflage uniforms were designed years and years ago for use in tropical or wooded environments but then started showing up in every environment in the 90's. But regardless of the pattern they beat the hell out of the old olive drabs I used to wear.
And imagine having to wear those various shades of not-so-attractive-green in a skirt and blouse, with cute little tie as well. LOL.
Lt. General Russel Honore' weighed in on Trump's storm troopers in an interview last night. His opinion is that they're a disgrace to military personnel everywhere. Firing on our own citizens, dressing in ridiculous camouflage to intimidate. Totally unnecessary.
Yes--I'm not Biden's biggest fan, but he provides a refreshing contrast to what we're currently stuck with.
I think we should be clear that no military personnel are involved in the Portland frolics.
Local government seems outraged that after investing a couple of months in the surrender-appease-pander (SAP) strategy, the feds always are ruining everything with more active measures.
People seem really upset over the federal costumery. Personally I see them as too imitative of Antifa’s fashion statement. Talk about your non-consensual co-platforming.
I also find it refreshing that Biden is signaling a return to well-phrased counterfactuality I expect nothing less from a man claiming the degrees, academic honors and superior IQ that he possesses.
frugal-one
7-22-20, 1:57pm
Lt. General Russel Honore' weighed in on Trump's storm troopers in an interview last night. His opinion is that they're a disgrace to military personnel everywhere. Firing on our own citizens, dressing in ridiculous camouflage to intimidate. Totally unnecessary.
Yes--I'm not Biden's biggest fan, but he provides a refreshing contrast to what we're currently stuck with.
From what I understand, these are not military personnel but federal agents. There is a major difference. These goons are not trained in this type of action. I agree this is a total disgrace.
I'm not Biden's biggest fan either but he is totally better than the dictator-wannabe.
frugal-one
7-22-20, 1:59pm
It's actually a great tactical uniform, plenty of pockets and reinforcement everywhere. Camouflage uniforms were designed years and years ago for use in tropical or wooded environments but then started showing up in every environment in the 90's. But regardless of the pattern they beat the hell out of the old olive drabs I used to wear.
Wow... you are complimenting them on their uniforms?????? They are not even identifiable.
From what I understand, these are not military personnel but federal agents. There is a major difference. These goons are not trained in this type of action. I agree this is a total disgrace.
I'm not Biden's biggest fan either but he is totally better than the dictator-wannabe.Are the local police trained in this type of action?
frugal-one
7-22-20, 2:02pm
I think we should be clear that no military personnel are involved in the Portland frolics.
Local government seems outraged that after investing a couple of months in the surrender-appease-pander (SAP) strategy, the feds always are ruining everything with more active measures.
People seem really upset over the federal costumery. Personally I see them as too imitative of Antifa’s fashion statement. Talk about your non-consensual co-platforming.
I also find it refreshing that Biden is signaling a return to well-phrased counterfactuality I expect nothing less from a man claiming the degrees, academic honors and superior IQ that he possesses.
haha... trump's says he is a genius and refuses to show his college transcripts, not to mention his tax statements. Biden is much more qualified in all respects.
Wow... you are complimenting them on their uniforms?????? They are not even identifiable.I was complimenting the uniforms, they're very functional and made for rough duty. Much better for this operation than the slacks and button down shirts and ties these officers usually wear.
frugal-one
7-22-20, 2:04pm
Are the local police trained in this type of action?
I do not have police background but would think they would be trained in protest rallies and riot procedures. LDAHL, I believe, was police and could shed light on this subject???
frugal-one
7-22-20, 2:05pm
I was complimenting the uniforms, they're very functional and made for rough duty. Much better for this operation than the slacks and button down shirts and ties these officers usually wear.
These officers are not usually in this type of situation. They are federal agents.
I do not have police background but would think they would be trained in protest rallies and riot procedures. LDAHL, I believe, was police and could shed light on this subject???
I have never been involved in law enforcement. Unless you count processing their payroll and paying their invoices. I am not nearly a good enough person to be a cop.
Biden is much more qualified in all respects.
His claims of intellectual superiority have certainty been useful to his opposition in an attack ad currently running in my state. You would think a fellow bragging about his academic achievements would be more cautious in lying about things which can be easily verified.
These officers are not usually in this type of situation. They are federal agents.Federal agents are sworn peace officers, just like local police.
I do not have police background but would think they would be trained in protest rallies and riot procedures. LDAHL, I believe, was police and could shed light on this subject???
I believe you're thinking of WilliamSmith who started this thread a year and a half ago, or possibly me as I was a police officer for about 6 years a long time ago. I thought you may be be more up-to-date on current police training after making lack of training claims for police officers from a collection of federal agencies.
I'm personally dubious of any claims that they're not, believing that their training may not be up-to-date but is usually acquired during training for peace officer certification.
I'm personally dubious of any claims that they're not, believing that their training may not be up-to-date but is usually acquired during training for peace officer certification.
I participate every few years in the state training exercises for riot control. It's a lot of fun (*), a lot of material, and a lot of work. Based on my observation, it is a perishable, specialty skill. I'd hope units deployed to these situations have this sort of training.
(*) One year we had a zombie-afternoon
(*) One year we had a zombie-afternoonWe never trained for zombies back in the 70's, back then it was mostly for '68 Democratic Convention and Bernie Sanders supporter types.
We never trained for zombies back in the 70's, back then it was mostly for '68 Democratic Convention and Bernie Sanders supporter types.
I think at the time it was meant to be an analogue for the residents of "The Jungle" in Seattle, which was cleared out shortly thereafter in an action oddly similar to a scene from "They Live".
Simpler times.
frugal-one
7-22-20, 8:28pm
Federal agents are sworn peace officers, just like local police.
I was a sworn federal agent. It is not at all like local police.
https://www.fedsmith.com/2019/10/31/oath-office-what-means/
frugal-one
7-22-20, 8:34pm
His claims of intellectual superiority have certainty been useful to his opposition in an attack ad currently running in my state. You would think a fellow bragging about his academic achievements would be more cautious in lying about things which can be easily verified.
I saw that ad here too. It didn't even look like Biden. I can't remember who was running the ad but it was not done well IMO.
I was a sworn federal agent. It is not at all like local police.
https://www.fedsmith.com/2019/10/31/oath-office-what-means/Were you a US Marshall or ATF Agent or Park Service Officer or Federal Protective Services Officer and commissioned as a Police Officer as they are? I believe it's some combination of those officers you referred to as goons earlier. Did you consider yourself a goon? I hope not as that's a rather unhealthy outlook.
I was a sworn federal agent. It is not at all like local police.
https://www.fedsmith.com/2019/10/31/oath-office-what-means/
I think my oath went something like this:
I __________________ do hereby declare, that I will support the constitution of the United States, the constitution of the State of Washington, and that, as a member of the _____ Fire District, my fundamental duty is to serve the people I swear to protect, to safeguard and preserve life, health and property against fire and other perils, and to maintain a proficiency in the fire service.
I recognize the badge of my office as a symbol of public faith and trust, and I accept so long as I am true to the ethics of the fire service and make these promises so solemnly, freely, and upon my honor.
frugal-one
7-22-20, 9:43pm
Were you a US Marshall or ATF Agent or Park Service Officer or Federal Protective Services Officer and commissioned as a Police Officer as they are? I believe it's some combination of those officers you referred to as goons earlier. Did you consider yourself a goon? I hope not as that's a rather unhealthy outlook.
Look up the duties of these agents.... they are not trained for riots and protests. They are goons in the context they have now been put in. And, no .. I was not any of those. Also look above at what is considered to be a sworn agent. It is not at all like local police.
Look up the duties of these agents.... they are not trained for riots and protests. They are goons in the context they have now been put in. And, no .. I was not any of those. Also look above at what is considered to be a sworn agent. It is not at all like local police.
The Scope and Organization of Federal Law Enforcement AgenciesAccording to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, federal law enforcement agencies are organizational units of the federal government, and their principle functions include the prevention, detection, and investigation of crime, as well as the apprehension of alleged offenders.
https://www.federallawenforcement.org/what-is-federal-law-enforcement/#:~:text=The%20Scope%20and%20Organization%20of%20F ederal%20Law%20Enforcement,as%20well%20as%20the%20 apprehension%20of%20alleged%20offenders.
Teacher Terry
7-22-20, 10:37pm
They are beating up innocent people. It’s been filmed many times. They are also not wearing identification so people don’t know who to complain about. My husband is ex military and thinks what’s occurring is horrible and he is a Republican.
The Scope and Organization of Federal Law Enforcement AgenciesAccording to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, federal law enforcement agencies are organizational units of the federal government, and their principle functions include the prevention, detection, and investigation of crime, as well as the apprehension of alleged offenders.
https://www.federallawenforcement.org/what-is-federal-law-enforcement/#:~:text=The%20Scope%20and%20Organization%20of%20F ederal%20Law%20Enforcement,as%20well%20as%20the%20 apprehension%20of%20alleged%20offenders.
I seem to have missed the part in that link where they talked about training for riots and protest. I also missed the part where they talk about not wearing their official uniforms or badges.
But it was a fascinating read. And one that must send a chill down the spines of anyone who believes the constitution prescribes a limited federal government.
“ More than 40 percent of all federal criminal provisions have been enacted since 1970. This means that dozens of offenses what were once considered state crimes now fall under federal jurisdiction.”
And now the mayor of Portland got tear gassed while talking to protestors. Besides the face that I have a hard time imagining him being anywhere near people who are rioting, which is the supposed justification for the unidentified federal goons, it also seems to make a mockery of the part in Alan’s article about working with local and state.
Maybe the Portland police department need to start arresting anyone acting like police but not wearing appropriate agency uniforms.
Well jp, maybe this will be a learning experience for liberals and states rights and limited Federal government will become a priority. I'll not count on it but one can hope. :)
Well jp, maybe this will be a learning experience for Democrats and states rights and limited Federal government will become a priority. I'll not count on it but one can hope. :)
Off the top of my head "states' rights" were employed in the fifties to excuse Jim Crow laws and associated human rights violations. I remember federal troops (real troops, I recall, not ICE Rent-a-Brutes) guarding black children as they bravely entered newly desegregated schools. That's why many of us have a jaundiced opinion of them.
Off the top of my head "states' rights" were employed in the fifties to excuse Jim Crow laws and associated human rights violations. I remember federal troops (real troops, I recall, not ICE Rent-a-Brutes) guarding black children as they bravely entered newly desegregated schools. That's why many of us have a jaundiced opinion of them.
So you like federal involvement when you like it and you don't when you don't? Makes it kinda hard to keep up doesn't it?
Those Democrats and their Jim Crow laws, it's a wonder that party can still exist in this environment isn't it?
Jim Crow laws were an abomination. Good for the Democrats for renouncing their racist roots.
frugal-one
7-23-20, 11:18am
The Scope and Organization of Federal Law Enforcement AgenciesAccording to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, federal law enforcement agencies are organizational units of the federal government, and their principle functions include the prevention, detection, and investigation of crime, as well as the apprehension of alleged offenders.
https://www.federallawenforcement.org/what-is-federal-law-enforcement/#:~:text=The%20Scope%20and%20Organization%20of%20F ederal%20Law%20Enforcement,as%20well%20as%20the%20 apprehension%20of%20alleged%20offenders.
I was in law enforcement. The above statement is correct. The apprehension by force is not necessary. Each state has a national guard unit if help is desired. There is no reason for the feds to get involved other than trump trying to be a dictator... ie Hitler wanna-be!
Mayor Lightfoot of Chicago says it well. "We do not welcome dictatorship. We do not welcome authoritarianism, and we do not welcome unconstitutional arrest and detainment of our residents. That is something I will not tolerate." BTW.. Lightfoot is a former federal prosecutor.
frugal-one
7-23-20, 11:20am
Well jp, maybe this will be a learning experience for liberals and states rights and limited Federal government will become a priority. I'll not count on it but one can hope. :)
And a dictatorship!!!
And a dictatorship!!!
I don't think you can vote a dictator out of office, and these days I'm pretty sure that will happen with Trump in just a few months.
And a dictatorship!!!
I can remember when such talk was the province of far-right crazies. Either you owe them an apology or you’re being disingenuous.
And now the mayor of Portland got tear gassed while talking to protestors.
I just saw a video clip of that, it appears the tear gas was used to disperse a crowd surrounding him chanting "Quit your job, quit your job" while a few others threw rocks at him.
You have to admire his ability to stay on point as he continued to appease the crowd who were upset that Federal Police were actually protecting federal property.
Federal Police were actually protecting federal property.
by grabbing random people off the street and putting them in unmarked cars without identifying themselves or telling the people why they are being arrested.
by grabbing random people off the street and putting them in unmarked cars without identifying themselves or telling the people why they are being arrested.
That's an interesting point, I read today they they're using unmarked cars because they discovered marked cars immediately became targets on the street. That and the fact that most media refuses to acknowledge it or the patches on their uniforms seems like a version of clickbait to me. Whatever works I guess.
I also don't understand the claim that "random" people are being grabbed off the street rather than "targeted" people. Where's the value in that other than to inflame the easily inflamed? It doesn't make sense.
Teacher Terry
7-23-20, 12:52pm
Kidnapping people off the street and detaining them wit no charges is what Hitler did.
Kidnapping people off the street and detaining them wit no charges is what Hitler did.Is Godwin's Law is not a thing anymore?
Is Godwin's Law is not a thing anymore?
I suppose we could compare him to any dictator of your choice.
I suppose we could compare him to any dictator of your choice.Dictatorships only work in Socialist or their parent Communist countries. Thank goodness we're not there yet.
I just saw a video clip of that, it appears the tear gas was used to disperse a crowd surrounding him chanting "Quit your job, quit your job" while a few others threw rocks at him.
You have to admire his ability to stay on point as he continued to appease the crowd who were upset that Federal Police were actually protecting federal property.
Mayor Wheeler was quoted as saying he didn't see any need for the attack. Portland could hire two off-duty city police officers to stand in front of that building. Goons begone!
Was your video clip authentic? More authentic than this still shot, I hope:
https://god.dailydot.com/trump-ukraine-ad-chaos/?fbclid=IwAR2iTsuzvO4QjGp-339-Kz1IV3NkO0XhTW4XmZMNNCJa3vNUB0PC9Jc9giM
ETA: There's conjecture that operatives are coming in late every evening to cause trouble and gin up photo ops for Trump's campaign ads. Wouldn't surprise me.
frugal-one
7-23-20, 1:14pm
I can remember when such talk was the province of far-right crazies. Either you owe them an apology or you’re being disingenuous.
Maybe at one time that was true but now look what is in the White House. Times have radically changed. This is how Hitler came to power. People did not believe or want to see what he was doing. The good news about all this ... is some Republicans are starting to speak up!
frugal-one
7-23-20, 1:15pm
I don't think you can vote a dictator out of office, and these days I'm pretty sure that will happen with Trump in just a few months.
he keeps saying he will not believe the results of the election (unless they are in his favor, of course). He may have to be dragged out! I hope you are right. He can't be gone too soon.
frugal-one
7-23-20, 1:17pm
Is Godwin's Law is not a thing anymore?
I never heard of anyone else being referred to as Hitler. This guy is the closest I have ever seen.
frugal-one
7-23-20, 1:19pm
Dictatorships only work in Socialist or their parent Communist countries. Thank goodness we're not there yet.
The operative word here is YET.
Hitler was a fascist, a dictator solidly on the right pole of the spectrum.
Roderick Stackelberg places fascism—including Nazism, which he says is "a radical variant of fascism"—on the political right by explaining: "The more a person deems absolute equality among all people to be a desirable condition, the further left he or she will be on the ideological spectrum. Clearly Hitler, with his murderous racism, was not a proponent of "absolute equality."
Mayor Wheeler was quoted as saying he didn't see any need for the attack. Hence my earlier stated admiration for his ability to stay on point.
Was your video clip authentic? I saw it this morning on MSNBC's three hour daily Mika & Joe Hate Trump show, so I can't actually vouch for its authenticity or context.
I also don't understand the claim that "random" people are being grabbed off the street rather than "targeted" people. Where's the value in that other than to inflame the easily inflamed? It doesn't make sense.
I suppose if you ignore the multiple videos floating around the internet showing exactly that, and that pretty much all the people who get kidnapped get released without ever being told why they were picked up or having any charges brought against them then, sure, it's not happening.
I suppose if you ignore the multiple videos floating around the internet showing exactly that, and that pretty much all the people who get kidnapped get released without ever being told why they were picked up or having any charges brought against them then, sure, it's not happening.So the Force does work!
https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/61d6ea13e53e0e79487e1b1006419e7f.jpg
I watched several different live streams of the Portland events of last night.
I did see:
- hard objects being thrown over the fence at the building, and at humans on the other side of the fence
- seemingly some flaming objects being thrown over the fence, some looked like the classic bottle-with-rag-on-fire
- laser beams pointing at humans on the other side of the fence
- fires inside the fenceline, not sure of the cause
Now, if I were a homeowner, and a mob was throwing flaming bottles at my home, and lighting me up with what appear to be laser sighting devices, I'd be tempted to react strongly....
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