Question regarding the protest-related fatality in Portland.....

[gimmethesimplelife]

Does this change in any way how you view the protests in Portland? If so, how? Rob

[bae]

Does this change in any way how you view the protests in Portland? If so, how? Rob

No.

First of all, what do you mean by "the protests"? To my understanding, which is admittedly informed by people who are there, is that multiple things are going on, not just a single thing you can call "the protests"....

[iris lilies]

But Rob, haven’t there been multiple fatalities in this Portland caper? I don’t get why you’re posting today about a death. Anyway whatever, it’s all a big shit show.

[LDAHL]

So on Saturday a right wing type is shot to death by a suspect identifying as Antifa, and the Governor makes a speech about not allowing right wing types to spread bloodshed in the streets. Even if they supply the blood.

[jp1]

So on saturday trump's loser fanboys showed up, drove in a caravan like migrants walking to save their lives and shot paint balls and pepper spray at BLM folks. And people are outraged that one of the trump fanboys ended up dead. Perhaps the outrage should be pointed at the instigator in chief. Some feel he's just a harmless figurehead. I would disagree and think things will get better once he's a harmless sad sack involved in endless litigation to prevent his likely deserved trip to prison as if he had been a lowly Illinois governor.

[iris lilies]

So on saturday trump's loser fanboys showed up, drove in a caravan like migrants walking to save their lives and shot paint balls and pepper spray at BLM folks. And people are outraged that one of the trump fanboys ended up dead. Perhaps the outrage should be pointed at the instigator in chief. Some feel he's just a harmless figurehead. I would disagree and think things will get better once he's a harmless sad sack involved in endless litigation to prevent his likely deserved trip to prison as if he had been a lowly Illinois governor.I have to say, this made me laugh

[JaneV2.0]

Trump was asked yesterday about systemic racism and he refused to address the issue, pivoting instead to blather about "law and order." (The last president who bloviated about "law and order" was Nixon, as I recall. Pay attention to what they do, not what they say...) People are demonstrating en masse because people sworn to uphold the law are routinely killing black people, racism is still alive and well and in fact resurging, economic injustice is rife--real--serious problems--and the right is bleating about property damage and the poor put-upon police. I keep thinking I'm all outraged out, but every day proves that I'm not.

[bae]

So on saturday trump's loser fanboys showed up, drove in a caravan like migrants walking to save their lives and shot paint balls and pepper spray at BLM folks. And people are outraged that one of the trump fanboys ended up dead.

If I were walking down the sidewalk here in the village, and some rando drove down the street shooting paintballs or pepper spray at people, I'd expect to see some return fire from the local citizenry, but probably lead, not paint.

[Rogar]

I would assume that citizens shooting random people with paint balls and pepper spray is some sort of illegal assault, but law enforcement has probably had to look the other way on a number of things. I also doubt they would want to mess with a caravan of armed Trump supporters.

[Alan]

I also doubt they would want to mess with a caravan of armed Trump supporters.Have we gotten to the point where everyone who believes in law and order must be a Trump supporter and, I guess, vice-versa? If so, I think we have to acknowledge that one of those Trump supporters was shot and killed by a Biden supporter, but how could that be since he was armed? Is there a Biden militia?

[bae]

Have we gotten to the point where everyone who believes in law and order must be a Trump supporter and, I guess, vice-versa?

Heck, I hope not. I'm a believer in law and order, and I'd like to see Trump making big rocks into little rocks in a federal prison for the rest of his days.

[JaneV2.0]

Have we gotten to the point where everyone who believes in law and order must be a Trump supporter and, I guess, vice-versa? If so, I think we have to acknowledge that one of those Trump supporters was shot and killed by a Biden supporter, but how could that be since he was armed? Is there a Biden militia?

My assumption is that most people, by default, are in favor of law and order. So I look askance at people who loudly tout their support for LE, etc. just as I look askance at people who go around purporting to be "patriots." I suppose that's their form of virtue signaling, but I see it as the first refuge of a scoundrel. Bill Barr, for example, is about as much a proponent of the law as I'm Jessica Rabbit.

[Rogar]

Have we gotten to the point where everyone who believes in law and order must be a Trump supporter and, I guess, vice-versa? If so, I think we have to acknowledge that one of those Trump supporters was shot and killed by a Biden supporter, but how could that be since he was armed? Is there a Biden militia?

I'm not totally sure of your point, but the truck caravan was loaded with MAGA hats and other Trump paraphernalia. Who knows what presidential politics the shooter mentioned represents. I've not seen any Biden signs in any news features I've noticed.

[early morning]

Why would you assume a "caravan of armed Trump supporters" believe in law and order? And when has Biden ADVOCATED for armed civilians to go ANYWHERE and mess with people of opposing political views?

I believe in law and order with some common sense thrown in - not every situation fits neatly into check boxes of "law" or "order" - esp as the second of those terms is subjective. And I am NOT a trump supporter. I don't advocate for riots or looting, but protest, I am deeply supportive of. I do not understand how anyone who considers themselves a moral, law-abiding citizen can excuse the actions of our current head of government.

[JaneV2.0]

The suspected shooter in Portland is supposedly an avowed fan of Antifa, which should be good for days of right-wing chest-beating. From what I've read of him, he was just someone looking for a fight.

Yeah--yahoos in MAGA hats and pickup trucks flying American flags are the scoundrels that come to mind. They regularly show up at protests, trying to provoke people. Mostly, and wisely, protesters have their number.

[Rogar]

It doesn't seem like the caravan of Trump supporters is all that interested in law and order when they illegally provoke people with tear gas and pepper spray. Not to defend any of the illegal protesters or their acts of violence, but it's not supporting law and order you intentionally add provocation to an already tense situation.

[Alan]

Yeah--yahoos in MAGA hats and pickup trucks flying American flags are the scoundrels that come to mind. They regularly show up at protests, trying to provoke people. Mostly, and wisely, protesters have their number.How many days into the 100 plus day occupation of portions of Portland did it take before they showed up? How many businesses were destroyed, how many people beaten, how many fires set, how many bricks and bottles and bags of urine and feces were thrown before those scoundrels showed up? How many of those days did Democrats tolerate and seem to approve of the violence before Biden made a refreshingly forceful speech a few days ago condemning the rioting, looting and lawlessness? (Hint: It was after polls showed it was hurting Democrats)

[Rogar]

And in the end, what actual good did the Trump caravan do for law and order other than create a show for the media.

[Alan]

And in the end, what actual good did the Trump caravan do for law and order other than create a show for the media.Well, I'd consider an eventual acknowledgement and then transfer of responsibility for everything bad happening there to be considered good by many. Finally, lawlessness is a bad thing to the previously blind!

[gimmethesimplelife]

I spoke to former neighbors of mine in Portland who want out. They lived next door to me in the 97206 Kenilworth/Creston neighborhood off SE Holgate and 39th Avenue. They tell me that the quality of life is tanking in Portland and that the neighborly gin and tonics are over.....this really saddens me. Portland was once such a wonderful place and I miss posing as if middle class amongst people who didn't know my background, sipping g and t's as if life were stable and I didn't know the truth about America. In the mid 90's before it became do expensive, Portland was a great place to put on such a display. Now it seems as if America has arrived in Portland.

I still have the glasses I used to drink those g and t's with. I saved them for important occasions such as getting married and when Trump is voted out of office. Rob

[jp1]

I'm curious, did the neighborhood gatherings stop pre-covid? Or are they a temporary reality due to covid? Although I suppose they could still happen outside and distanced during covid.

San Francisco is certainly a less desirable place currently but that's hopefully only temporary. I expect that a year from now things will have gotten pretty much back to normal but for now certain neighborhoods are pretty awful. I had to go downtown for my dentist appointment the other day and it was really creepy. Other than construction workers the only people wandering around were great big encampments of homeless people in tents, despite the fact that there are a lot of high rise residential buildings in that neighborhood. My dentist's office is the only business operating in her building so the elevators are shut down. The security guard let me in to the fire staircase where I had to squeeze past the garbage dumpsters and up a dank and dirty staircase to her office. Adding to the dreariness was the fact that the windows, which look out across the embarcadero to the the Bay had not been cleaned in ages and were filthy. On top of all that the office experience itself was depressing. It's normally a bright, cheery open space that's been nicely decorated, but now it's got big ugly opaque plastic sheets hanging from the ceiling separating the chairs from each other with loud air purifiers in each space. I'm glad that they are being cautious and appear to be doing it right, but the whole experience was a depressing reminder of how not normal life is right now.

[gimmethesimplelife]

But Rob, haven’t there been multiple fatalities in this Portland caper? I don’t get why you’re posting today about a death. Anyway whatever, it’s all a big shit show.As far as I understand, to date, this kne only. Not that I could ever forgive America for such but so far, this one inexcusable death to America only. Let us pray that death due to America halts here. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Should have been this one only above. Rob

[Rogar]

Well, I'd consider an eventual acknowledgement and then transfer of responsibility for everything bad happening there to be considered good by many. Finally, lawlessness is a bad thing to the previously blind!

It would seem to me like the most logical action would be for the local police to arrest those who are damaging property or posing an illegal threat to others across the board. Eventually the threat of arrest and punishment would get some off the streets and deter others. From what little I understand of the situation, there are some arrests but they are released and back on the streets the next day. That hardly seems like law and order to me. I can suppose the city officials were elected by a majority and maybe that's the sort of response they favor? If it were in my neighborhood I'd be screaming for better protection.

Something doesn't seem to be working right, but I don't know that a gang of mean looking guys parading through town for one day in trucks, dressed in military garb, and taunting demonstrators is any solution and is more likely antagonistic. It's a little romantic to think of them as a militia when they are more accurately protesters or agitators at best. Trump and maybe his supporters are promising an end to violence, but the ball is pretty much in his court right now and I'm not seeing any solution coming from the big T. It's another false promise. Whatever federal troops were sent tended to increase the violence. I can only think that he and his supporters don't have a good answer.

It's a bad situation with some moronic behavior coming form several sides, as i see it.

[jp1]

It would seem to me like the most logical action would be for the local police to arrest those who are damaging property or posing an illegal threat to others across the board. Eventually the threat of arrest and punishment would get some off the streets and deter others. From what little I understand of the situation, there are some arrests but they are released and back on the streets the next day. That hardly seems like law and order to me. I can suppose the city officials were elected by a majority and maybe that's the sort of response they favor? If it were in my neighborhood I'd be screaming for better protection.

Something doesn't seem to be working right, but I don't know that a gang of mean looking guys parading through town for one day in trucks, dressed in military garb, and taunting demonstrators is any solution and is more likely antagonistic. It's a little romantic to think of them as a militia when they are more accurately protesters or agitators at best. Trump and maybe his supporters are promising an end to violence, but the ball is pretty much in his court right now and I'm not seeing any solution coming from the big T. It's another false promise. Whatever federal troops were sent tended to increase the violence. I can only think that he and his supporters don't have a good answer.

It's a bad situation with some moronic behavior coming form several sides, as i see it.

+5000

[iris lilies]

It would seem to me like the most logical action would be for the local police to arrest those who are damaging property or posing an illegal threat to others across the board. Eventually the threat of arrest and punishment would get some off the streets and deter others. From what little I understand of the situation, there are some arrests but they are released and back on the streets the next day. That hardly seems like law and order to me. I can suppose the city officials were elected by a majority and maybe that's the sort of response they favor? If it were in my neighborhood I'd be screaming for better protection...

But that’s exactly how it works Roger. Perps are arrested, kept overnight, and let out the next day. I’ve been living with that reality for years in urban St. Louis. We just had a discussion about Returning nuisance actors at our neighborhood board meeting Tuesday night. I would love to know how their social workers would treat these guys? Sweet talk them into doing what, I’m not sure.Portland is seeing bits of the kind of lawlessness that takes place in much of urban America. That is new for Portland. It is hard for Portland.

I do not agree with you at all that the ball is in Trump’s court about violence in Portland. He’s probably taking advantage of that agitation, but he’s not gonna end it. It’s a local matter, it’s a bunch of goons on the ground. It’s a shit show for local gendarmes to address.I actually think it’s a very bad idea to invite Trump to “end it. “

[Rogar]

I do not agree with you at all that the ball is in Trump’s court about violence in Portland. He’s probably taking advantage of that agitation, but he’s not gonna end it. It’s a local matter, it’s a bunch of goons on the ground. It’s a shit show for local gendarmes to address.I actually think it’s a very bad idea to invite Trump to “end it. “

This is a quote from T's 2016 acceptance speech. “The crime and violence that today afflicts our nation will soon come to an end. Beginning on January 20th, 2017, safety will be restored.”

I anticipate he will make a similar promise again. My point being that if he is truly capable of this, what is he waiting for, the election? As in his court. More likely he is being more antagonistic than helping. I'd just as soon he kept his small fingers out these situations.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm curious, did the neighborhood gatherings stop pre-covid? Or are they a temporary reality due to covid? Although I suppose they could still happen outside and distanced during covid.

San Francisco is certainly a less desirable place currently but that's hopefully only temporary. I expect that a year from now things will have gotten pretty much back to normal but for now certain neighborhoods are pretty awful. I had to go downtown for my dentist appointment the other day and it was really creepy. Other than construction workers the only people wandering around were great big encampments of homeless people in tents, despite the fact that there are a lot of high rise residential buildings in that neighborhood. My dentist's office is the only business operating in her building so the elevators are shut down. The security guard let me in to the fire staircase where I had to squeeze past the garbage dumpsters and up a dank and dirty staircase to her office. Adding to the dreariness was the fact that the windows, which look out across the embarcadero to the the Bay had not been cleaned in ages and were filthy. On top of all that the office experience itself was depressing. It's normally a bright, cheery open space that's been nicely decorated, but now it's got big ugly opaque plastic sheets hanging from the ceiling separating the chairs from each other with loud air purifiers in each space. I'm glad that they are being cautious and appear to be doing it right, but the whole experience was a depressing reminder of how not normal life is right now.From what I understand as Portland has become more and more expensive it's composition is changing to less social, more stressed out people. And Oregon was not shy about a long lockdown. The protests are not really impacting SE Portland much - yet - unless works downtown or drives through there.

I think too that I arrived in Portland at it's tail end of being a mecca for frugal people. Rob

[iris lilies]

This is a quote from T's 2016 acceptance speech. “The crime and violence that today afflicts our nation will soon come to an end. Beginning on January 20th, 2017, safety will be restored.”

I anticipate he will make a similar promise again. My point being that if he is truly capable of this, what is he waiting for, the election? As in his court. More likely he is being more antagonistic than helping. I'd just as soon he kept his small fingers out these situations.


yes, he Should keep his fingers out of it, much of it anyway. I suppose I can accept the feds going in to protect federal property, but that seems to be over.

As for campaign promiseS and politician’s promises, well. OK. Especially Donald’s.