What is the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
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What is the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
Well said. Unless you've walked in another person's shoes.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
Acceptance of people for who they are makes life easier for all involved.
Can you think of exceptions to this rule?Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
No. Why would I go looking for exceptions, anyway? As a general rule, giving others the dignity of determining their own fate is the only option unless you're in law enforcement (OK, there's the exception).Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
To make sure that your idea holds water. You have heard of straw man fallacy, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
There is a technique called Steel Man. This is where you imagine someone disagrees with you. So you build up the best possible versions of their argument. This helps to make sure your point is airtight.
I was reading some time back about weight loss. Apparently after 5 years only 3% of people who lose 50 lbs. or more will have kept it off. Most gain it back within 5 years. Many gain more back.
The 3% who keep it off work at it all the time. It is the primary focus of their life, or darned close to it.
So perhaps for someone to stop hoarding they would have to do the same thing, make it the primary focus of their life and work at it all the time.
I hate to pull rank, but I believe I'm about twice your age, so I don't need techniques. I've done my own experimentation in my life and my conclusion holds water.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
That sounds like an appeal to authority fallacy. Just because you are older than me does not mean you could not benefit from using the Steel Man technique.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
Tell me about your experiments and why your conclusion holds water.
you could also see gaining it back within 5 years as success, because if they hadn't lost the 50 lbs in the first place they may have continued gaining instead and be an ADDITIONAL 50 pounds up (or whatever maybe only an additional 20 pounds up). Since it's very easy to gain weight as one gets older, and most people do, maintaining is a sort of success. Losing the weight may have given them the leeway to at least maintain their pre-diet weight, even though they somewhat overate in order to gain it back of course.Quote:
I was reading some time back about weight loss. Apparently after 5 years only 3% of people who lose 50 lbs. or more will have kept it off. Most gain it back within 5 years. Many gain more back.
Part of why people may gain weight as they age (beyond metabolism and blah blah blah) is IMO because they focus excessively on losing weight toward some ideal rather than just preventing weight gain and being satisfied with that. While if they actually manage to lose weight this gives them some leeway, if they don't it probably just diverts energy from a more helpful focus on maintaining. Hoarding also tends to get worse as one gets older of course.
UL, we are not all your projects, and we don't all need to be fixed by you.
Allow me to illustrate.
Suppose I repeated some maxim like: "An apple a day keeps the doctor away!"
I am 36. If an 18 year old asked me for proof or the reasoning behind this and I said: "Hey kid, I am twice your age. I don't need to proof or reasoning. It is just true because that is my view and my experience that I remember."
Would that be rational?
The project comment I made really hit home for you...Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
It did. And crystallized for me what I had been seeing, but couldn't quite put into words yet. You keep poking at everyone else, sometimes in ways that are not very nice, for a reason I don't yet understand.
I would, but it would be too self-revealing. Let's just say it's a personal choice I've adopted to let people be who they are. Can I do any differently anyway? I'm not God, and since you don't believe in God I'm assuming you are unwilling to adopt that role, too. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
Boredom, herbgeek. Boredom.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
You kinda zinged me here! haha :~)Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
or God complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
A carpenter repairs and builds things. Maybe I have a carpenter complex!Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
So he thinks he's Jesus?:~)
i went to get a goat. the thread grew three pages. I am still wondering about the store container "Tupperware". Also, UA can poke at me all he wants. I think it is probably good for both of us. And I am a tough old bird.
no, the landfill is not a warehouse of potential. That which goes into the landfill is not coming out in my lifetime and even if recovered someday has lost a lot of potential use.
also, I do not think focusing ones life on not hoarding is a good solution. 1) it is a very depressing thought, and 2) focusing on not hoarding is just another kind of focusing on stuff, and NOT focusing on stuff is one of the goals here.
I know I am making progress not because I throw the empty feed bags away, but because one day, I realize I threw the empty feed bag away without really thinking about it!
I don't think focusing on not-stuff is the same as focusing on stuff.
Is eating a diet of all junk food the same as eating a diet of fresh healthy foods? I mean, it is still focusing on food.
People say minimalism is as bad as hoarding because it is still all about focusing on stuff. And that makes no sense. Once the stuff is jettisoned and you turn off the acquisition valve then badda-boom-badda-bing -- you are focused on whatever you really wanted to focus on (writing, jogging, meditating, raising weasels, whatever).
Here is another thought:
I think that the point of waste is when the materials are extracted from the environment.
So save all the plastic cups you want. That does not change the wastage. It rearranged the plastic cups on the dining tables on the deck of the Titanic though.
that's all that matters and good for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Heck yeah!!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
If once the plastic cup has been extracted from the earth, it is used 17 times, instead of thrown away and replaced by a newly extracted from the earth cup 17 times, then you have in fact reduced the wastage. If you simply add 17 cups to the closet, then no, the wastage has not been reduced. The hoarding in this case is caused by inability to get the cups back into use coupled with faith that that can happen.
you are out of parallel with your food analogy. The amount of time and energy spent focusing on food is not changed by wether the focus is on healthy food or junk food. In the food case I would argue that healthy food probably requires more time and energy, as junk food is often easily picked up, but the reward is greater. The eating is different, the food is different, but yes, it is just another kind of focusing.
You can never "turn off the aquistion valve". Your bread will come in a bag, so you will have to make a decision about what to do with the bag. Or you will have to go out of your way to the bakery that sells bread without bags, and bring a bag, or carry your naked bread home unprotected. If you are "focusing on not hoarding" throwing that bag away, or recycling it, is going to take a lot more mental energy than mindlessly stuffing it in your kitchen drawer. In fact, it will probably take more time as well.
today I picked up a goat, and the goat guy gave me a plastic bag of feed so I can change his food over slowly. When the feed is gone I will have an empty plastic bag. Go ahead, focus on raiding weasels. The weasel raising is guaranteed to bring stuff into your life.
in fact, having a relationship with your father brings stuff into your life. One of the things that clearly pisses you off is that you cannot turn the valve off without giving up the relationship.
stuff happens.
You know, I don't think minimalism has to be focused on stuff. I think minimalism is focused on stuff when one feels a need to be a guard at the gate with a sword attempting to turn of the valve. I think minimalism stops being about stuff when one can just stand in the inevitable flow of stuff, not even noticing it passing by except to occaisionally pick up that which one wishes to use and to return that which one has no further use for to the flow.
that is a healthy attitude toward stuff. And I think that is what recovery from hoarding will look like. Except the minimalist is going to keep everything in his pocket, and someone like me is going to be holding a big box (ok, bigger than a box, I'm being figurative anyway)
My son called us on face time last night. He has been sighing about the amount of stuff his gf has (ironically both of my grown children have chosen partners who have "a lot" of stuff. - although in both cases the stuff has been intensified by premature inheritance - one father died and the other walked out, both mothers downsized immensely and moved. So you have millennials with pianos, full sets of bar ware, tools, and antique living room sets)
anyway, he walked us around the new apartment and showed it off. He was really happy. Previously they have been living in "we can afford this" housing. Now he has a really good job, and she is also working, so "we can afford this" has changed - overnight they are middle class. The apartment is 900 sq ft with a one car plus garage. He said "our apartment is finally the right size! We have unpacked everything and put it away and I can come home without having stuff everywhere."
dh said "that has never happened with us." And he looked at me somewhere between frustrated and sad.
today I am feeling discouraged. I'm working so hard and I still have so far to go.
You've come so far! That elephant is getting eaten. Hugs.
well, remember that your son (apparently) is happy in a clean and spare room, you are not. So your house wont look like his house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I have been on the phone with my mom a lot today. She and my uncle are starting the clean out of the beach house my grandparents built when my mom was little. It's going to be sold. Which is hard for everybody. But we don't Ho there much anymore, the taxes are high, the upkeep us difficult, and honestly I end up crying every visit because I miss my grandparents.
anyway, as I requested, I get my great grandparents table and chairs for my new dining area, and the fountain for our entryway.
after talking to my mother at length, and saying "no" to a lot, I also get:
a mirror, a child's rocking chair, a lamp, two 3x5 cross stitch pictures, a box of paperdolls, a plastic lunch box, a ceramic chicken dish, and possibly some sheets, some pillows, and a painting. The paper dolls are going in the recycling. I don't actually want them, but my uncle insists that I take them because my name is on them.
they haven't done the garage yet.
My uncle. I love him very much, and he is the person I don't want to become. Periodically my aunt threatens to leave him because she just can't deal with the stuff anymore. My cousin is an only child and has made me swear that when the time comes, I will help her clean out the house.
as I was talking to my mom today, I could hear my aunt in the background, upset because my mom had left the goodwill pile from the second floor in the living room instead of taking it right to her trunk, and my uncle was sorting back through it and taking things out.
Iris lilies, cross post.
My son's apartment is nice. I would like it there. They have lots of pictures and throw pillows and accent rugs, and books, and he even has a collection of cat things on his dresser and a stuffed snowman in the recliner. What he doesn't have is boxes on the floor and things piled on the coffee table or his desk or the chairs or stashed under the end tables, and clothes hanging on furniture.
Your son's apartment sounds wonderful, good for them that they have found their "right size."
And you are working on yours, your addition is giving you the "right size" that you have needed for a long time. You have many varied activities, all of which need space in your living environment. Getting the scrapbooking corner together is an important step, just like going through the pottery molds was. As you make a real place for everything, it will be easier and easier to see and deal with the excess.
My husband just rediscovered a stash of books in the bottom of a huge end table that we have not opened in years. Thought I had at least seen all the books.
That's interesting, sweetana3.
Reminds me of another story I read about a woman who said her family opened up a trunk that hadn't been opened in decades and found beautiful hand-sewn quilts. While I know something that like isn't going to happen in our family, I'd be curious to know if anyone here had any similar "happy surprises" during a clean up.
****Spoiler Alert**** MY Name is Doris
Last night we saw My Name is Doris with Sally Field and surprisingly it has an element of the hoarding condition in the storyline. The movie overall was very cute and funny - Sally Field is always fantastic in everything she does - but I was disappointed in the typical Hollywood portrayal of hoarding. It was very similar to how the Silver Lining Playlist brought up a real condition but instead of being true to the difficulty in addressing such a condition, they make it look like a piece of cake to overcome. But despite that, it was such a cute movie.
I have a beautiful antique trunk we found cleaning out my great grandmother's attic, and we found all kinds of really neat things in my grandparent's house - I am now the keeper of the family quilts, I think my (thrifty? Saver? Hoarder?) Subsistence farm great grandmother turned every scrap of fabric that crossed her path into something useful, and often beautiful. The other side lived in Maine in the 18-1900's. Everyone took at least one nice quilt, but I got the ones that didn't speak to anyone or need significant repair. Quilting is something I dabbled with briefly when my kids were babies and want to get back to when there are a few major projects off my plate.
Geila, yeah, that's how it goes in movies - individual has huge personal struggle, suddenly easily overcome by the love of a good partner. Thousands of women marry men thinking they'll save them and the are surprised when the struggle is real and continues. I'm not sure it's as much of a problem with men, but I'm sure it happens.
Also, when I started dehoarding, I found dd3's birth certificate. She was 7. The envelope had never been opened. We had moved twice since her birth.
I talked to my mom again today. I am now also getting the bolt of fabric that matches the upholstery on the child's rocker that I am getting, because I have the other child's rocker and it needs to be reupholstered. Dh is calling "scope creep"
and I went to get feed and discovered that when dd2 said she unloaded all the stuff from the wedding, we were not in agreement on the meaning of some of those words. (She has the farm truck on a camping trip, so I was driving my car for the first time all week). I am just putting all the decorations in the loft with the wedding presents and the bride and groom can deal with them when they come back.
Tell me what he means by "scope creep."
Scope creep - original plan - pick up fountain and table and chairs. New plan - and fabric, and rocking chair, and lamp, and...
i have to to show him where all this stuff is going to go or it stays at my mom's house. I'm feeling a lot of time pressure.
Ah, yes... I have also heard the term "mission creep" and thought maybe it was related.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Why not just go back to the original scope? Then no pressure.
Hunh, so your hubby is takng the position of "show me where this stuff will live" before it comes to your house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Sounds good!