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That might have been the case early on in the investigation, but now all of the information has pretty been verified. Unfortunately some of the first hand witnesses are being blocked from testifying. I think it's just a diversion for the real issues and one that might endanger the life of the whistle blower, not legally but from some right wing whacko.
Alan, is it possible in your universe, that what the whistleblower heard was just so outrageous and over the line, that they felt they had to speak up? And they had to speak up because the others closer to the events are intimidated (for good reason, look at Trump's tweets on Friday during the proceedings)?Quote:
All they needed was someone willing to say they heard something through the grapevine and then they could manipulate public opinion through a willing press and a large percentage of the population willing to believe gossip as proof
Its possible that there was political motivation, but its also possible that there wasn't.
Edited to add: and even IF bias exists, facts could also be true. Its not necessarily one or the other.
When I hear "whistle blower" I think of Karen Silkwood. It's obvious to me why protections exist for these brave souls. Naturally, there are always powerful people who want to continue their dirty deeds unmolested.
Deep Throat's identity wasn't revealed for years after he passed information along to intrepid reporters Woodward and Bernstein, who pursued the lead. IMO, Republicans are just spewing their usual obfuscatory fog. It works a treat on their base.
And of course none of the principals are responding to subpoenas*, so it may take some time to get the whole truth.
*How they get away with that is a mystery to me.
So are you saying that if the whistleblower was some sort of democratic plant, and that's a big if considering that everything he alleged has now been corroborated by multiple other people, that we should ignore all the evidence that's turned up in the meantime?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Honestly I'm not surprised that you doubt their, or any/all of the other witnesses, integrity. The republicans have basically come to the conclusion that no democrat can be an honorable american and that anyone who disagrees with them must be a democrat even if they claim not to be.
I think prominent Republicans are so blinded by greed that the end always justifies the means. I knew people in school like that--they'd cheat even when they didn't need to, just to keep their edge. They think Democrats are suspect because they don't believe honorable people exist--and they don't, in their world.
I believe there are honorable Republicans, but they've been marginalized. I hope they make a comeback when this is all over.
No, I guess I'm saying that the long awaited Mueller investigation didn't provide the goods and Mr Schiff had to look elsewhere and that all the corroboration is based on 2nd and 3rd hand reports. I would hope that anyone accused of anything would deserve better than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
I suppose its sort of like being accused of being a Trump supporter (and using that term as a pejorative) if you'd rather see hard and fast facts rather than speculation and third hand accounts.Quote:
Honestly I'm not surprised that you doubt their, or any/all of the other witnesses, integrity. The republicans have basically come to the conclusion that no democrat can be an honorable american and that anyone who disagrees with them must be a democrat even if they claim not to be.
Unless you had actually read the Mueller report, which lists some ten examples of Russian involvement with Trump's campaign--if you only went by the sound bites provided by Fox and others--I can see where you'd think there was no meat in that sandwich. I trust the investigation is ongoing, and that it will all be spelled out with clarity that can't be denied. Mueller did us a great disservice in not testifying fully, and foolishly trusting that Americans would actually read his report.
Ha ha, I see what you did there, we deplorables aren't as dense as you might assume but I do appreciate the effort. It may pay off in some circles but overall it does more good by bolstering others.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
I know it's disappointing but not even Adam Schiff could find anything helpful in the report since not being exonerated of obstruction doesn't equal being guilty of obstruction. Using it's findings as a basis for impeachment would be a waste of time and effort. Those two years of work and the buildup to an unsatisfying conclusion make it the Warren Commission report for this generation, and believe me, there are still people convinced JFK was killed by his own government.
So in other words you're just upset that trump got caught? Because otherwise I still don't understand why it matters that we learn who the whistleblower is when at this point it's clear that he or she knew what the eff they were talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Personally I care way more about having a criminal president be brought to justice then I do about the political leanings of the person that brought attention of his wrongdoing to light. If trump hadn't done anything wrong the whistleblower's allegations would have been found to be false and we would all be going on with our lives.
No, but thanks for playing, you guys crack me up.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
The Mueller Report was hampered by the united front Trump and his stonewalling henchmen presented, even though--is it six of them?--have been convicted now. It really is like a crime family.
LDAHL says he is not a trump fan but his words jive with trump most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
Integrity and law should be synonymous. Obviously, not by the current adminstration's standards, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
trump is not just abusing his office just for political gain but personal gain (wealth) as well. It will be interesting to see his tax returns. And, yes, I believe this will rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors ... see Hatch Act.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Explain. When did Biden do a dastardly act?Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Now an "ear witness" so the whistleblower is a mute point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
That in itself is a crime!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
Feel free to clarify or not but right now your reasons for wanting to out the whistleblower aren’t particularly clear. Although i’m starting to think that i hit the nail on the head when i said that republicans dont believe democrats can be honorable americans. Looked at through that absurd prism it’s impossible to see how the congressional democrats might be impeaching trump because it happens to be the right thing to do given his actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
But by all means keep whining about how it is all just politics and ignoring the fact that trump behaved heinously to a level that reasonable people can think deserves impeachment and removal.
Can’t I find both Trump and his more egregious enemies equally ridiculous? There seems to be enough mendacity to go around. It isn’t a binary good and evil choice, as much as the many tribe-bound true believers would have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by frugal-one
You sure can!
I don't have any particular desire to "out" the whistleblower although the New York Times did a pretty good job of it several months ago and several other sources have followed up with more "outing" since then, but I do think it might be particularly interesting to see what he has to say under oath. And I guess I must apologize for not being particularly clear when I gave a rather detailed reason for why that might be an interesting part of the impeachment inquiry. I'm sorry that I must have muddied it so that you couldn't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
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Although i’m starting to think that i hit the nail on the head when i said that republicans dont believe democrats can be honorable americans.
I don't think that at all, but if you'd said 'far left' I might agree with you somewhat. ;)
Whining? I'll have you know every word I've typed on this subject has been accomplished with a smile on my face as I imagine the responses. I do enjoy the fact that you guys never let me down.Quote:
But by all means keep whining about how it is all just politics
And it is all political. This impeachment process didn't begin with a whistleblower complaint, it started with an unpopular election 3 years ago. After several fits and starts, the whistleblower complaint showed promise to achieve the result Representative Schiff has been working towards since 2016. It's the best means to an end that's come along so far.
So you think that trump extorting an ally for personal political gain is acceptable. Got it. Because given what he did your attempts to justify his behavior don’t lead to any other conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
The day you actually respond to questions about what trump did instead of ‘oh the democrats blah blah blah’ is the day i’ll think you actually give a shit about what trump actually did.
Seems reasonable to me. I've mentioned before that they had to get Capone on tax evasion. If nothing else comes of the various investigations at least they've flushed Donald's thug and criminal circle, like Roger Stone, Cohen, Manafort, Rick Gates, Popadopoulos, Flynn, Pinedo, Pruitt, Zwaan, Maria Butina, Sam Patten, and Giuliani's Russian pals out of the political system and into the legal justice and prison system. A remarkable universe of criminality and the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. I could imagine they might even get a fall guy out of the impeachment proceedings, too. Maybe Giuliani.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
As Vice President he held up aid to Ukraine until they met his demand to fire the prosecutor who was investigating the firm enriching his son. He was so pleased with himself that he bragged about it on camera.Quote:
Originally Posted by frugal-one
With the exception that the guy he wanted fired was corrupt and not a problem for Burisma and his replacement, whoever it would end up being, would more likely have been a problem for Burisma, you are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Was there corruption or just a conflict of interest?Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/tr...n-and-ukraine/
I'm not sure what "far left" means, but I consider,say, Bernie Sanders far more honorable than many of his right-wing colleagues. Being honorable, to me, means having unshakeable principles that aren't determined by how much money you can make by playing the game. And Bernie's been on message for decades. I have hope for other "lefties," like the Squad, as well.
Should that be the new standard going forward? If Warren or Sanders assume the office should we immediately throw out a large net and drag in everyone in their circles, prosecute poor memories and personal secrets in hopes of getting them to give up anything useful on the President which might drive them from office?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
It seems like a poor way to run a country to me.
I think any public official suspected of abuse of power, bribery, witness intimidation, obstruction of justice or any other crimes should be investigated fully. If they choose to surround themselves with thugs in key positions that obviously is not direct evidence of anything, but it does arouse suspicions. The "witch hunt" has captured several witches and that in itself is worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
This administration is by far the most corrupt, inept, and morally repugnant of any I've experienced in my long life; we would be complicit if we sat on our hands as if it embodied business as usual. You can't be serious suggesting Sanders or Warren would, for example, elevate the likes of Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon, or encourage their attorney general to act as a personal avenger, or defy the emoluments clause at every opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
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Originally Posted by LDAHL
Depends on whom you consider trump's more egregious enemies?
That is very interesting! I did not know that!Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Frugal, read the whole story. People always only show part of the interview to make him look bad.
Frugal, keep in mind that you’re asking that of someone who thinks jimmy carter is just as awful of a human being as trump.Quote:
Originally Posted by frugal-one
I don’t think he’s as equally bad as Trump. Just equally annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
I can see how someone would think building houses for the poor in your 90’s and teaching Sunday school at 95 certainly makes someone as horrible as trump((:
I’m not annoyed by that so much as his decades of lecturing from the sidelines as if he were some sort of statesmanlike moral authority. If he’s a saint he’s an insufferable one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
You probably also didn't know that pretty much the only people who didn't want him fired were corrupt people in Ukraine who were worried that if he were replaced it would be with someone actually trying to reduce corruption. If Biden's son was doing corrupt activity Biden's actions were actually making his son more likely to get in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by frugal-one
Since it'll probably be a short list can you name the politicians that don't annoy you?Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
He’s as close to a saint as anyone could be. The world needs more people like him. I have always appreciated his viewpoint.