Article: 87 year old hoarder facing eviction (warning: incredibly sad)

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Again, I would say two years ago is not out in front of this issue. I think mental health services need to be in there a the first sign of hoarding.

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ah yes the delusional belief in this society that "mental health [care]" is the answer to all human problems. It should be available for those who wish to use it sure (and one could argue more readily available than it is fine). But how does the old joke about shrinks and a light bulb go, "it has to want to change". Sometimes someone can be nudged to change, but that is usually how it works best when there is a want to change.

Never even mention what kind of nightmare watching people all the time for the first signs of hoarding will be ... (and forcing them into mental health care? that's more risky than what is done to drunk drivers, at least they are only forced into 12 steps, not into the mental health system ...)

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

ah yes the delusional belief in this society that "mental health [care]" is the answer to all human problems. It should be available for those who wish to use it sure (and one could argue more readily available than it is fine). But how does the old joke about shrinks and a light bulb go, "it has to want to change". Sometimes someone can be nudged to change, but that is usually how it works best when there is a want to change.

Never even mention what kind of nightmare watching people all the time for the first signs of hoarding will be ...

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Well, I don't think waiting until the last minute and then barging in and evacuating the place is a good plan. Why? Because that can make a hoarder suicidal.

Watching people all the time? How about, keeping an eye on your neighbor to make sure they are okay/their stuff is not getting stolen/their house is not getting vandalism/dude ain't beating his wife, etc.

We watch people all the time to make sure they are okay -- the kid crossing the street, the old lady climbing the stairs, the cyclist on the side of the road.

So you notice Billy Joe Jim Bob, your neighbor, is starting to exhibit some hoarding problems. You contact some mental health services. Maybe they can get in there early and help.

But I am curious. What is your amazing plan to fix these situations?
Don't be shy. We're just spitballing ideas here.

I hope I can reach the end of my life without having a neighbor who watches me for signs of hoarding and then "helpfully" contacts mental health services.

So far, so good, but I guess we have to be on the alert for such threats to our freedom and our right to live in peace with our own choices.

If it was a stand alone dwelling, really nothing, unless it was a major rodent etc. problem for the neighbors or something, then yea. With an apartment it is more complex as it is directly connected to the other apartments, landlords can generally evict when they want (renters rights are seldom that strong), so perhaps they should just give an eviction warning.

I think the watching people all the time is a small town thing, which is why I have trouble relating to it, as most people mind their own business in my experience. Which is a blessing and a curse overall, but does sound preferable to always watching for the first sign of hoarding. Hoarding probably falls into eccentricity, not a very interesting eccentricity perhaps, and at a certain point harmful to the eccentric, but nonetheless. Eccentricity is what makes human life interesting.

The mental health thing is ambiguous, it's often been fairly coercive, long history of this. Is the number of deaths from hoarding even a problem that needs fixing? Yes ok all unnecessary deaths are tragic. And yes the landlord can evict to protect his building and other tenants oftentimes. But put into context. Is riding one's bicycle everywhere more dangerous? Don't answer that, it almost certainly is, as I certainly know people who got badly messed up that way.

I am amazed at the amount of info on this issue for firefighters. http://chamberofhoarders.com/ This was just one site with specific examples of the dangers.

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

If it was a stand alone dwelling, really nothing, unless it was a major rodent etc. problem for the neighbors or something, then yea. With an apartment it is more complex as it is directly connected to the other apartments, landlords can generally evict when they want (renters rights are seldom that strong), so perhaps they should just give an eviction warning.

I think the watching people all the time is a small town thing, which is why I have trouble relating to it, as most people mind their own business in my experience. Which is a blessing and a curse overall, but does sound preferable to always watching for the first sign of hoarding. Hoarding probably falls into eccentricity, not a very interesting eccentricity perhaps, and at a certain point harmful to the eccentric, but nonetheless. Eccentricity is what makes human life interesting.

The mental health thing is ambiguous, it's often been fairly coercive, long history of this. Is the number of deaths from hoarding even a problem that needs fixing? Yes ok all unnecessary deaths are tragic. And yes the landlord can evict to protect his building and other tenants oftentimes. But put into context. Is riding one's bicycle everywhere more dangerous? Don't answer that, it almost certainly is, as I certainly know people who got badly messed up that way.

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One more thing to throw in there is how a hoarded house effects a neighborhood -- and not just if there is a fire that could leap from building to building.

Some hoarder houses stink. Would you want hoarders whose house stinks right next to your house? And why does it stink? Or suppose you want to sell your house in North Dakota and move to sunny Arizona. Oh, wait... no one wants to buy your house because it is right next to a hoarder's house.

Other problems for the community arise, not just fires.

Remember, this is not some issue I am just waxing on about. My mom and dad are compulsive hoarders. My grandma on my mom's side was a compulsive hoarder. My best friend from my old neighborhood (we went to school together from middle school until graduating from college), his mom is a compulsive hoarder.

So it might not be spy vs. spy like you think it is. It might be that you notice your 2nd cousin's mom has a problem so you contact mental health services. Or maybe you are over at your friend's dad's house and realize he lives in a tinderbox and smokes stogies on the daily. Might went to talk to Fire Marshal Bill about that.

See? It is not necessarily Big Brother. It stems from the same concern you'd have if your neighbor's wife had black eyes and fat lips every week or two after you heard yelling from their bedroom next door.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Remember, this is not some issue I am just waxing on about. My mom and dad are compulsive hoarders. My grandma on my mom's side was a compulsive hoarder. . . .
See? It is not necessarily Big Brother. It stems from the same concern you'd have if your neighbor's wife had black eyes and fat lips every week or two after you heard yelling from their bedroom next door.

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That has to be really hard. Are you thinking about reporting your parents? If so, to whom would you report them?

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Originally Posted by bae

And generally those have notification requirements, the landlord can't just barge in on the tenants willy-nilly, they have the right to "quiet enjoyment" of their home.

I did however once recently use my inspection clause to make entry to a rented unit belonging to my mother that we suspected was Going South, and gathered enough information there to allow law enforcement to get a warrant. Horrible thing, a perfectly nice family descended into Meth Hell in about 3 months.

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True on no immediate entry typically. But if this woman and her sons could clean up the issue in 24 hours, we wouldn't be talking about it.

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Originally Posted by sweetana3

In this case, they have worked with her for over 2 years trying to get her to help find a solution. She has been to court twice over this issue. Her supporters apparently are stating that the stuff is a museum and should be allowed to stay. Now they are trying to get the public involved because she has lost the legal issue.

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It being a museum would make it a public place and subject to more stringent safety codes. Locally there has been a push in the last few years, to increase inspections of rental HOMES (not just apartments) and make the owners fall under many of the same restrictions, after so many problems with low income area's and slum lords. That would mean the landlord would have to place a 24 hour notice, and then appear with the inspector, who would treat it as a commercial building.
There has of course been push back and forth, by owners/good tenants and owners/poor tenants and neighbors of them.

Not sure after at least a two year fight, how surprising this whole thing or the strong eviction possibility is. Trying to place ones head in the sand, doesn't make life go away.

Once you are impacting your neighbors, etc then something needs to be done. It is sad but the sons have had 2 years to help their Mom fix this situation. This is not a surprise. I don't believe we should watch people & report to MH. People only change when it is less painful then staying the same. I am all for therapy but you have to want the help-ie to change.

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

Once you are impacting your neighbors, etc then something needs to be done. It is sad but the sons have had 2 years to help their Mom fix this situation. This is not a surprise. I don't believe we should watch people & report to MH. People only change when it is less painful then staying the same. I am all for therapy but you have to want the help-ie to change.

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But at the same time, waiting until the last minute or until the place goes up in flames or collapses is not a good solution.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

But at the same time, waiting until the last minute or until the place goes up in flames or collapses is not a good solution.

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You investigate a lot of fires and structural collapses, do you?

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Originally Posted by bae

You investigate a lot of fires and structural collapses, do you?

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For cryin' out loud, bae. lol

You've got the righteous indignation schtick down pat.


I am sure you're a genius. Really, I mean that.

And I know I am not a genius. I am just a workin' man, a humble fisherman from a podunk town.

But I assure you that when a place is acutely fire hazardous, it don't take a genius to know this. I'd confidently say that when a place is fire hazardous (and not even acutely so) a relatively clever lay person can point it out. And I can say that because of a fair amount of hard work I qualify as a relatively clever lay person.

Same rationale extends to building collapses.

So, you don't. You are just making stuff up. Got it.

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Originally Posted by bae

So, you don't. You are just making stuff up. Got it.

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I know I really zinged you. And you don't like it when that happens. I get it.

But that does not make me wrong about noticing fire hazards or structural problems in houses.

Do I need to continue to clarify this? Do you really think the only people that can point out a fire hazard are trained professionals with degrees in fire science? I would hope not.

Do you really think only a journeyman carpenter can point out when some old-ass stairs are about to give way and collapse under someone's feet?

Get serious, bae.

Now, I will gladly tell you that pros are better at pointing these things out and better and noticing problems very early on. No contest there.

But can a lay person identify fire hazards and some structural problems in a house? Uh... yes.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I know I really zinged you.

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Nope.

You are still making stuff up. The data is not remotely on your side. And in your responses, you keep moving the goal posts and not responding to the point in question.

If you want to reduce house fires and improve "public safety", ban smoking, and forbid the sale of cheap electric coffeemakers and extension cords. Follow up by banning propane, and disallowing people keeping any sort of solvents or lubricants in their garages. Very very very few fires or structural collapses are caused by "hoarders", or at least by their possession. To claim so as a reason for stepping in and hassling little old ladies is absurd.

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Originally Posted by bae

Nope.

You are still making stuff up. The data is not remotely on your side. And in your responses, you keep moving the goal posts and not responding to the point in question.

If you want to reduce house fires and improve "public safety", ban smoking, and forbid the sale of cheap electric coffeemakers and extension cords. Follow up by banning propane, and disallowing people keeping any sort of solvents or lubricants in their garages. Very very very few fires or structural collapses are caused by "hoarders", or at least by their possession. To claim so as a reason for stepping in and hassling little old ladies is absurd.

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You're really clinging to this, huh?

Okay...

And then, in your throes of rhetorical desperation you say this:

"To claim so as a reason for stepping in and hassling little old ladies is absurd."

Uncouth, bae. Uncouth.


Let me illustrate something for you:

bae's world of "everyone is dumb":

Ol' Ultralight goes into a hoarder's house and sees 5 years worth of newspapers stacked up around the stove. And he thinks nothing of it.


Ultralight's world of "Not everyone is as smart at bae, but they are reasonably bright."

Ol' Ultralight walks into a hoarder's house and sees 5 years of newspapers stacked up around the stove. And he says: "By golly, that is a fire hazard."


Whoa! Mind-blown.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

bae's world of "everyone is dumb":

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That's not what I said though, is it?

Thank you for this, bae. I see some fires started by candles--especially around curtains. I already follow all your proscriptions, except I have my computer, cable modem, and router connected to an outlet strip. Also, it goes without saying you need to keep your fire detectors working.

I haven't read much of this thread, because it just seems like an excuse to heap criticism on older people who gave up a lot of their lives to raise ungrateful/disgruntled/worried children. My parents had a houseful of stuff when they died because my father was frugal and tended to save tools and books, and my mother loved pretty things and surrounded herself with them, and they had lived in their good-sized house for decades. When they died, we hired people to sort and sell the possessions we had no use for. I can speak only for myself, but it seemed like the least we could do in exchange for their efforts on our behalf. I guess someone who lived in their parents' basement with a hot plate and one change of underwear would call it hoarding. I don't see it that way.

I hope to line up services before I die to deal with my property, so as to lessen any burden on my heirs. I also plan to leave the bulk of my estate, such as it is, to someone who will appreciate it--namely, animal charities.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

I haven't read much of this thread, because it just seems like an excuse to heap criticism on older people who gave up a lot of their lives to raise ungrateful/disgruntled/worried children.

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I think this statement shows profound misunderstanding of pretty much everything this thread is about.

1. Did these parents choose to have the kids? If so, then they did not "give up their lives."

2. Who are the ungrateful/disgruntled children you are speaking of?

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

I haven't read much of this thread, because it just seems like an excuse to heap criticism on older people who gave up a lot of their lives to raise ungrateful/disgruntled/worried children.

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Here is the deal: If you choose to have kids and then you complain about it endlessly because you "gave up your life" for the kids. Then you ought not have ever been a parent. Boom! I said it.

Also: Being one of those entitled parents who think: "I gave my kids life! So now they owe me all sorts of stuff and should be at my service whenever I want." is incredibly troubling. That is backwards parenting. It is not like making kids is difficult work. And the tough work of raising kids is something the vast, vast majority of parents knew about well before deciding to have kids. So lump it.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

I guess someone who lived in their parents' basement with a hot plate and one change of underwear would call it hoarding. I don't see it that way.

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Who is this person?

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Here is the deal: If you choose to have kids and then you complain about it endlessly because you "gave up your life" for the kids. Then you ought not have ever been a parent. Boom! I said it.

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the deeper truth is if you complain about having given up your life to kids you might just be looking for something to blame your life on (if it wasn't kids it would be that 'wretched spouse' you married - they ruined everything, or aging parents - admittedly at times a genuine burden, or etc..) But by no means do I think everyone needs to have kids. It works best when it's intended and wanted and thought out. I think some may have issues with the adult children living at home with this old woman and thus mooching off her, but they may be doing that to perform a "caretaking" role, as an elderly person may need a lot of caretaking. If you know not, judge not ..

It's just sad that the kids didn't help her clean the house enough to pass inspection so they all aren't in this terrible position.

Fire Investigation is an extremely technical vocation that takes years of education and experience to become proficient at. And investigation often results in a finding of undetermined origin. An expert in fire hazards can examine a hoarders residence and determine that no fire hazard exists in a situation where a layman might perceive a hazard. A layman could never qualify to testify before a judge when the government has asked for judicial intervention and court order to correct a dangerous situation inside a private residence. Nobody is going to enter this residence without a court order and an affidavit of probable cause detailing the facts that lead the government to feel compelled to act. There is no role for a layman in this process except for as a reporting person.

Hoarding is not the only thing to watch out for with older people and fires. I did a couple of volunteer things with Red Cross this year where we went out with the local fire department and installed and replaced smoke and CO alarms, replaced batteries (Red Cross is providing the alarms for free, it's a pretty nice deal). It was primarily older people and it surprised me how many had dead alarms, or were way over 10 years old. Last time I was out there was one older, very lucid, very intelligent woman, with a beautiful, immaculate home - and not a single alarm was functional. Scary.

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Originally Posted by creaker

Hoarding is not the only thing to watch out for with older people and fires. I did a couple of volunteer things with Red Cross this year where we went out with the local fire department and installed and replaced smoke and CO alarms, replaced batteries (Red Cross is providing the alarms for free, it's a pretty nice deal). It was primarily older people and it surprised me how many had dead alarms, or were way over 10 years old. Last time I was out there was one older, very lucid, very intelligent woman, with a beautiful, immaculate home - and not a single alarm was functional. Scary.

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I am all for addressing those issues too!

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I am all for addressing those issues too!

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Be the change that you seek in the world.

The fire department notes in every public announcement about a fire whether there were working smoke detectors in the building. They are giving them out for free and installing them and still there are probably thousands of houses without them. (owned and rented)