Actually it was antiwar protesters - different protest. Primary issue appeared to be people were not allowed to enter with protest signs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79800C20111009
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Actually it was antiwar protesters - different protest. Primary issue appeared to be people were not allowed to enter with protest signs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79800C20111009
The message is clear enough to me: The system is broken and we're not going to take it any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
Here's an op-ed from the New York Times that you might find enlightening: http://tinyurl.com/NYT-Op-Ed-on-OWS
It seems some very intelligent people got the point, and believe me, there is a point.
I recently retired, but I'm a CPA and have held highly responsible jobs auditing insurance company finances and Federal government contracts. Although I'm comfortable financially speaking, our current so-called democracy makes my skin crawl. It is dominated by large, rich corporations, not we, the people. I give to my church and carefully selected charities, primarily one for the homeless and the SPCA. As soon as I get my long-neglected home in reasonable order, I plan to volunteer. I also plan to attend Occupy Philadelphia, an hour's train ride away.
I'm thrilled to see such a large group of people standing up to the suits who've gotten rich by cheating the rest of us.
My apologies, Zoebird. I didn't read all of the posts before I posted myself, and duplicated your reference to the NYT Op-Ed by Paul Krugman. A big :+1: to your posts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoebird
If the folks with huge wealth and power in this country are not successful in dividing the American people, and if the Tea Party folks begin to realize that they have a LOT of common cause with these young people, and see a bit past the hair and clothes and political labels, they'd realize that the grievances of both groups have a lot of common cause, and both groups would be really, really surprised if they could realize how they could work together to wrest control of our country from the 1% who has been buying our government and turning it to only their benefit, and REALLY take our country back.
Of course, it would mean thinking, not allowing oneself to be propagandized by the big corporate media outlets and politicians who have a lot to gain by making sure those various groups of people that make up the 99% never realize just how much they have in common.
Catwoman, I'm not sure why you feel so threatened by these Occupy Wall Street folks that you feel the need to dismiss them as squalid hippies, etc., but it really isn't true, any more than it was true that the Tea Party protests were nothing but a bunch of fat, white, Medicare recipients who wanted to return the country to the nostalgic "perfect" place it was before civil rights and all those brown immigrants started taking over "their" country.
There were some racists in the Tea Party folks, and there are some do-less, layabout young people in this group, but the core grievances that both groups have, that somehow the middle class in this country is being squeezed to death, people are losing their hold in the middle class, life for even those who work hard and make all the right decisions seems to be going backward, not forward.......both groups are FULL of hard working Americans who love their country, feel as though they and people like them are being sold down the river by the very richest of the rich who have tilted the playing field ever more in their direction by literally buying the affections of enough of our lawmakers that the 99% of the country is being run for the benefit of those few......THOSE people make up the mass of both groups, and together, they would be formidable.
SO formidable that the powerful in this country are dead set to set them on each other, magnifying every difference, masking every commonality, so as to maintain that hold on power.
Open your eyes.....stop looking for differences, stop the labeling and the disrespecting, and look for all the ways they are echoing things that even your hardest Tea Party heart and most fundamentalist Christian could find in common with them. I think you'll be surprised.
I kind of find myself thinking of the great environmental things that have been accomplished as "treehuggers" and "sportsmen" have begun to work together to protect the environment. Perhaps with different aims in mind, but recognizing the importance of an intact biosphere to both. Even the most good ole boy, anti-hippie hunter or fisherman knows that without intact environment, there isn't good hunting or fishing. And even "save every lamb" environmentalists can recognize that unlimited growth of animal populations can be unhealthy without the stabilizing influence of hunting seasons to replace the large predators that used to keep those populations in check. Two VERY disparate groups, with two VERY different outlooks, but realizing they have common cause to obtain the ends important to each.
the Tea Party and these Occupy Wall Street folks have a LOT more in common than they would ever believe. A LOT more in common. Let's hope they are smart enough to realize it.
Some VERY interesting thoughts here:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/19...have-in-common
excerpt:
"The Occupy Wall Street protesters wave signs broadly demanding a better economic system, less government interference, an end to costly war, and a greater focus on privacy.
Sound familiar? Limits on government intrusion into Americans’ private lives and economic reform are also major talking points for Tea Partiers.
Strikingly, both of these movements claim they represent the voice of average Americans, and they are right. Many Americans who are disillusioned with government’s ability to handle the on-going economic crisis sympathize with these demands. But if these movements represent the “normal” American voter’s views, what does that say about where most citizens stand on the political spectrum?
The emergence of the hard-right leaning Tea Party and left-leaning Occupy Wall Street movements is an indication that rhetoric aside, Americans are not polarized, but rather share similar goals and objectives. Different groups may spring up seeking to tackle the same political problems, but they aren’t limited to solving the puzzle based on one-sided political ideology. Instead, both liberals and conservatives utilize the same strategies to achieve the same goals. In the case of the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street, both use grassroots mobilization strategies that seek to address Americans’ disillusionment and deep-seeded anger with the government and our economic system.
Each movement holds very different demographics. Those who identify themselves as part of the Tea Party tend to be conservative, white, married, male, and over the age of 45. The Occupy Wall Street supporters so far have been left-leaning and mostly young. Yet through these demographics, similar rallying cries are heard. Each movement is tired of business-as-usual politics, an opinion shared by a majority of Americans. Congressional approval in America is at an all-time low of 12%. Public trust in government is only slightly better, at 15%. 91% of Americans don’t think the national economy is in good shape.
We shouldn’t look at the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street as fringe groups composed of radicals. Each truly does echo wider sentiments of a swath of Americans, and uses similar strategies to attempt to affect policy."
Of course, the people that built zuccotti park don't mention that they built the park in exchange for buildign a much taller building across the street then they could have otherwise. If the gov't had been smart at that time they've taken ownership of zuccotti park and now we wouldn't have owners of a much taller building whining like babies about what has happened to their poor ****ing park.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
Of course, the people that built zuccotti park don't mention that they built the park in exchange for buildign a much taller building across the street then they could have otherwise. If the gov't had been smart at that time they've taken ownership of zuccotti park and now we wouldn't have owners of a much taller building whining like babies about what has happened to their poor ****ing park.
The above by JP1 summarizes in a nutshell what I believe is so wrong with all of this. The park is a privately owned piece of property. Nevermind the origins of the original transaction to purchase it. Someone owns it and the owners are supposed to be "whining like babies about what has happened to their poor ......park." The private property of citizens should be respected. This is all about redistribution of wealth...which again leads me to say the private property of citizens should be respected.
Loosechickens, I am not the least bit threatened by this. Just disgusted. Obama didn't get the "summer of discontent" that he wanted so the flames of this are being fanned to try and give him even a smidgen of legitimacy as President, he might even be able to make a speech about it!
Here are some bits from Occupy Atlanta:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI
What an effective force - and so coherent....hahahahahaha
Catwoman - It is NOT about the redistribution of wealth. It is about saving our country from going down the tubes.
Please listen to the words that the toxic dem senator said in earlier post.
And respond just to his words, not the person.
You are putting old ideas on a new problem and anyone that is calling for sheer redistribution of wealth is putting old ideas on a new problem.
You yourself cited a harworking young person in your family having challenges following graduation - there should be a job of meaning waiting for her when she gets out of college. (As long as said college graduate studied something that there is a demand for in current market -- meaning something practical, not underwater basketweaving)
This movement for me is about there is a scarcity of jobs in this country.
Rich people, I'm happy for you - Be super rich. Buy your 200 mil boat or whatever had someone upset earlier in this post - you or your money working for you earned that money.
But pay the same percentage rate or higher in taxes as someone that makes less than you.
And for the 50% or that can't pay federal taxes - how can you squeeze blood from a turnip? Let's put our energy on getting these folks into a higher tax bracket so they can contribute.
What angers me is that there are people that want to work, but well paying jobs aren't out there
Furthermore - those that ARE protesting solely on Redistribution of Wealth - Grow up and get a clue! Go find a country that concept has been successful... oh wait, there really isn't one, is there?
Even China has had to embrace capitalism to progress.
So we should be more like China?Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnlaurel
There are a lot of countries where a few have pretty much everything and the rest have pretty much nothing - capitalism doesn't seem to work very well in those places, at least not for what we expect capitalism to do in this country.
Mountainlaurel, I agree that people want to work and well-paying jobs aren't out there. Over-regulation, over-taxation and people (corps. and small employers) holding on to their money right now rather than hiring and innovating are what is causing the jobs scarcity. Fear of Obama's policies as described in previous sentence are what is choking the economy. Obamacare is killing R & D - overtaxation is killing R & D which is sending millions of jobs overseas...
They may be mad about this but their anger is mis-directed.
I can not be counted among the rich. I can guarantee you if a son or daughter of mine were to spend an ounce of their time in this sort of time-wasting, ridiculous endeavor - I would be ashamed. We get up, we work, we identify problems, we fix them. The only time in our history I would have ever joined a protest and been proud to be part of one was the work of MLK jr. That was a worthy cause.l
This is spoiled brats wanting the govt. to feed them and wipe their bottoms.
Appears that was agent provocateurs: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...C-?via=siderecQuote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
Except that part of their deal was that they had to build a park for PUBLIC USE. They stopped having all the benefits of private property ownership of the park land when they made the deal. As long as the protestors are acting within the law it's not really their place to complain. And if the protestors were/are acting illegally I'm sure the police would only be too happy to step in and arrest them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
If my son or daughter were to spend some of their time taking part in this protest - the very essence of democratic rights, enshrined in the first amendment - I would be PROUD. I simply can't imagine a parent being ashamed of a child who wishes to better their world and who is willing to put themselves on the line to do so, regardless of the format. Donating to charities, volunteering, serving in the military - and yes, protesting, if that is what one's beliefs call for! I am not so foolish as to think that my children and grandchildren (if I had any of those) must believe as I do to be good people.Quote:
I can guarantee you if a son or daughter of mine were to spend an ounce of their time in this sort of time-wasting, ridiculous endeavor - I would be ashamed.
edit for clarity....
Since 1980 the trend has been de-regulation and our taxes are at a historical low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
Really?Quote:
I can guarantee you if a son or daughter of mine were to spend an ounce of their time in this sort of time-wasting, ridiculous endeavor - I would be ashamed.
Peace
I'm gonna "yeah that" to zigzagman's post. Because it is more accurate that catwoman's characterization.
i don't know any people at the rallies who are going for redistribution of wealth.
One thing that the Tea Party was adamantly against was bailing out the auto and banking industries because of the potential corruption AND the lack of guarantee that it would actually help the economy.
One thing that Occupy Wall St is about is not bailing banks and other corporations when there's no obvious, clear development of the economy (job creation, etc).
Seems to me that they have everything in common, if you can segregate it from the ridiculous hate-mongering going on via the media.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
1. This is not a pseudo grassroots movement with billionaire underwriters. This is a bunch of folks who are diverse in their viewpoints and concerns, but what undergirds the protest is the notion that the economic system isn't working well for everyone. Wall Street is easy to target because it is inhabited by people who are grossly overcompensated for their meager contributions to society.
So, of course it's barely organized. Of course the concerns are diffuse and difficult to articulate. Some of the folks will seem foolish or misinformed. That doesn't mean everyone participating is a moron, as you are implying.
2. The Democratic party has not, as of yet, co-opted the OWS movement. Unlike the tea party, which is merely a subbrand of the GOP.
2. You right wingers are so predictable. The moment a left leaning protest takes place, time to do some hippy punching. Jesus, can you give it up already? Not everyone who sympathizes with OWS is a dfh, just like not everyone who sympathizes with the tea party is necesssarily a racist.
3. Find a job? That's one of the problems, have you noticed that folks are having a hard time getting good jobs these days? That's one of the problems that ordinary folks are dealing with.
Unbelievable.
"The system is broken. It needs to be reformed. People are tired of being used and lied to. They voted for change and were ignored when they expressed their views and quite strongly. And when they complain, they are ridiculed. And now they are getting really angry. And the powers-that-be are trying to figure out how to play them for their own ends."
http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot...sters-and.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
1. Obama is NOT the cause of the jobs crisis. You really are brainwashed. Stop watching Fox News.
2. Obamacare has NOTHING to do with R & D. That is just ridiculous on its face. Obamacare is only health insurance reform. What the hell does that have to do with R & D?
3. Their anger is directed at the economic oligarchy in this country. I would say your anger at Obama and the left wing is mis-directed.
4. MLK Jr. was a proponent of economic justice as well as racial equality. He'd be a OWS supporter.
5. Spoiled brats? That's nasty. It is their right to protest whatever they want to protest. They are not asking for welfare or government handouts. They are asking for government to start representing THEIR interests as the vast majority of the population.
I do not understand why you insist on aligning yourself with the interests of the ultra elite in this country. Why are you supporting policies that favor them over your own interests?
Rosebud, we must be looking at different universes....Obama IS the cause of the jobs crisis. Everybody with money is afraid to let go of it due to his policies, everybody is suffering as a result. I can't help but find your comment about being brainwashed and aligning myself with ultra elites, and oh yes, "oligarchy" humorous...You are the one spouting the lefty pablum you have all been spoon fed. No worries, this will all be over soon, the taxpayers will pay for the extra police protection, pay for cleaning up the mess these folks have left while their protests will have accomplished nothing. Oh well, maybe some protestors were entertained for a bit. That's all, its really nothing. Desperate straws Pelosi and Obama are grasping at to try and create a crisis...They need a good crisis right now to deflect from their complete incompetence
What policies would that be? Exactly which policies of Obama's have created this job problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
I'm looking forward to reading the list of policies of Obama's that created this job problem as well as HOW they created it. I would particularly like to see the list of the laws (by title and number if possible) and/or polices (via policy statements from the white house or via other governmental offices), and evidence of HOW those specific laws or policies created the job crisis in 3 years.
The overall environment of uncertainty in business expenses is one thing that is preventing businesses from expanding and hiring.
ObamaCare dictates some additional expenses for employers. The recent hearings centered on some of those:
http://republicans.energycommerce.ho...0211/Pitts.pdf
From my quick skim it seems that the additional burden for businesses are just getting started with:
* higher prices as insurance companies are driven out of business --fewer service providers
* plans that will lose their grandfathered status
* essential minimum coverage that employers will be required to meet
and others coming...
It appears that there are efforts to associate the OWS movement with the Dems - not the case, but if the GOP tries and push that idea it will only be to their detriment. People really did want hope and change and it didn't happen. Most people I know have not given up but have become even more frustrated with the continuing corporate control of our government.
The lines are being drawn quite clearly these days - attacks on SS and Medicare, eliminating almost all environmental protection, crony capitalism, greed is not only good but viewed as American Exceptionalism. I don't think that is want most of "the people" in this nation had in mind and the right is having a very hard time using their typical wedge issues (gays, guns, god) to distract that fact these days and I don't think those tired old conservative ideas will work much longer, especially with the youth.
Peace
Irislily,
that statement (linked) isn't evidence of how obama's policies or laws have "created this job situation."
first, the primary statement asserts a May 2011 survey that states that the majority of companies may change their insuring processes due to PPACA (meaning, increase copay/premiums OR give up the grandfathered insurance).
this statement is about what they may do -- not what they have done or are forced to do or have been forced to do or whatever. it's a conjecture of what they *may* do as of May 2011.
because there is no evidence that any company has done any changing in regards to the insurance that they provide in the statement, there is no evidence that their bottom line has been affected, and likewise no evidence that it has caused companies to have to lay off employees or be unable to hire more employees.
It is only conjecture that the law *may* negatively impact their bottom lines and therefore *may* continue to impact the job situation (or not improve it), but this is still just conjecture, not facts.
Thus, the statement is not evidence that Obama's policy/laws have "Created this job situation."
Second, I might point out that "this job situation" has been happening for many years. PPACA came into effect in March 2011.
According to this NYT article from Feb 5, 2010, it is reported that "Jobless Rate Falls to 9.7%, Giving Hope that The Worst is Over." The current unemployment rate (September 2011) is 9.1% (i grant, these rates are not the entire picture -- as per prior posts).
It seems pretty clear that the PPACA has not positively or negatively impacted the job market at this point, first because the unemployment rate was HIGHER before it became law and, since then, has been slightly (but steadily) decreasing -- which some might try to argue that it could be "because" but obviously correlation and causation are two different things -- and second, because there doesn't seem to be any clear evidence that companies have acted one way or another regarding insurance policies and how it affects their bottom line -- at least as far as we know as of May 2011 (by your link).
So, no, it isn't evidence to support the claim.
Feel free to keep it coming. it's interesting to read this stuff.
Ok. But... cheating people out of their homes and life savings by means of fraudulent mortgages and deceptive fine print is also a form of redistribution of wealth, a particularly viscious one. For millions of us who didn't have much to begin with, all our wealth has already been redistributed to multinational megabanks. Many are simply asking to have their private property rights respected as well, rather than fraudulently stripped away by obscenely wealthy institutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
oh agreed, it's conjecture because the future is uncertain, my premise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoebird
Do you think uncertainty is good for the present business climate?
Yup, we call those places "banana republics." What is concerning many experts is the direction the US is taking, very rapidly becoming more unequal than many traditional "banana republics" and falling far behind some of the countries of Europe that used to be behind us.Quote:
Originally Posted by creaker
http://img.slate.com/media/3/100914_...Divergence.pdf
The US is now "more unequal than Guyana, Nicaragua, and Venezuela, and roughly on par with Uruguay, Argentina, and Ecuador." Your chances of rising from the bottom to any degree of comfort in the US is now less than in France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, or Spain. The concentration of wealth is more unequal now than at any time since the end of the age of the Robber Barons, and that simply can't be sustained.
And FYI, US citizens and corporations currently pay the lowest tax burden since 1958, making "over-taxed" just another ideological sound bite.
Whether or not PPACA creates more or less uncertainity is really a matter of opinion and belief, not fact.
I feel confident saying that PPACA did not "cause this job situation" and to date has not positively or negatively impacted "the job situation" because there is no *evidence* to support this claim or belief.
It might also be noted that business people (such as myself -- people who run their own businesses) are pretty comfortable with uncertainty, and live with a lot of it. I think uncertainty is the business climate. YOu do a lot of work and planning and budgeting and forecasting, but ultimately, it's always uncertain. that's what business is.
heck, that's what life is.
Open your eyes!!
moratorium on offshore drilling - jobs killer
obamacare - jobs killer, R & D killer
New regs on irs reporting on small business - jobs killer
constant threat (from pres.) of raising taxes - jobs killer
auto industry bailout - jobs killer
cash for clunkers - jobs killer
constant threat of obamacare expenses on business owners - jobs killer, direct cause of job relocations overseas
living in the union's pockets, effectively being on the unions payroll - jobs killer
you want specifics - there are too, too many to list here but it is basic cause and effect. If you want to live where the government takes care of you, takes half or more of your paycheck, regulates virtually everything you do - then move. Americans won't stand for it. Realizing this is a liberal leaning group, I think many of you are not in touch with mainstream, middle class voters. 13 months and you will see the referendum.
Catwomen, maybe I'm missing your point, but there is no doubt the financial crisis caused joblessness and Obama is no where near the top of causes for the crisis. Nor are there any proposals by him, to take "more than half" a paycheck. Even the tax proposals for the rich are modest. Obama has been less effective in correctling unemployment than most would like, but he is very far from the core of the issues, and there is some general agreement that the stimulus prevented us from going deeper into recession or depression.
I think it's pretty clear that President Obama didn't cause the job crisis we find ourselves in, but it seems equally clear to me that his policies contribute to the continuation of the crisis.
People can say what they want about the tax climate for business in this country being the lowest it has been in decades, but until they realize that our government still imposes a harsher burden on business than other countries, they shouldn't be surprised at the outcome. And further, no one should be surprised at business being reluctant to commit to further jobs during periods of uncertainty regarding future regulation, taxes and government mandates. If there's one thing this administration has done well, it's to voice their desire to impose more of those three items onto the very people they depend upon to improve the economy.
Alan, perhaps you saw the CEO of GE on 60 minutes last night. He was in favor of a flat 20% corporate tax with no loopholes. He said that this is in line with much of Europe and would mean more taxes for some, and less for others. I'm not the tax expert that you seem to be, but thought this was interesting.
I'm certainly not an expert, but it doesn't take one to realize that the US has a higher corporate tax rate than any of our European neighbors. My company would benefit from a flat 20% corporate tax.
As an example, my company just purchased one division of an Irish company and has decided to re-organize as an Irish corporation. There are several reasons for this, one being that it's easier to get regulatory approvals to sell our products in the EU as an EU based company, but another major factor is the corporate tax rate. Ireland has a 12.5% corporate tax rate, while our historic US effective corporate tax rate has been closer to 30%.
This is what I think the whole OWS is about, presented in a slightly humorous fashion. The problem I see is that, for the most part, business did not commit any crimes based on our current laws. The crimes commited were moral crimes. When we talk about more or less regulation, there in lies some of the core issues to me. (Personally I think it is time for people to start looking to a third party with better candidates, as I see the Republicans and the tea party married to Wall Street and the Democrats serving them dinner in their lodge).
http://www.rouchnaturephotos.com/Per...cartoon-Th.jpg
What policies? Which ones Alan? Quit the Rush Beck talking points and give us specifics!Quote:
Originally Posted by alan
You do realize NOTHING has changed in the tax policies since George Bush started us on this spiral down the rabbit hole with his tax breaks for the wealthy. Nothing. Obama hasn't changed a thing, and yet, where are the jobs? Where is all this business confidence and 'job creating' that the lower tax rates were supposed to give us? When did we start to decline? Well, I suppose you could go back to Saint Ronald and his trickle down bs...but recently the deficit started spiraling out of control because of Bush's tax breaks and unfunded wars. Directly related. And now we are supposed to believe only a Republican can ride in and save the day? Really? Do we have stupid tattooed on our foreheads!
And please stop with the incredibly ignorant republican line about how 'the threat of FUTURE taxes and, and, things will make business people stop doing business'. What a load of horse hocky! This is a consumer driven economy. If there is a market, REAL business people will satisfy that market. McDonald's isn't going to close down a successful store because they might have to pay a bit more in taxes. No business person is going to refuse $10,000 because he/she might have to pay $1000 in taxes.
It's this kind of talking point that really makes my blood boil because it assumes we are all just too stupid to figure this one out.
OK, show of hands among the business people here. Yesterday you made 10,000. Today you will make 9,000. Is that going to make you close shop?
Saturday Night Live joked about the OWS protestors, saying that they are really VERY different from Tea Party protesters because the OWS people are anarchists and the Tea Partiers want no government. So there. ha ha.
Close shop? Was that was we were talking about? A business person who is losing money is not going to hire. Hiring is on hold. We were talking about the environment for adding more jobs and it's not there.Quote:
Originally Posted by peggy