Yes, it is so difficult to stay attached to parents who seem to us so self-destructive. I really admire you for staying connected and caring about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
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Yes, it is so difficult to stay attached to parents who seem to us so self-destructive. I really admire you for staying connected and caring about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
I have had screaming matches with mom over papers that are truly meaningless (electric bills from late 80's, two houses ago) stored under her bed and all over the room. my dad keeps the important papers so all the papers she has could go right into recycling, I'm gonna tell her the firemen, for their own safety won't enter a hoarded room. That might help.
And note well that it's not just an issue for that room - the high fuel load in that room can quickly compromise the rest of the building and make it quite unsafe. (I mean, more unsafe than a burning building *normally* is.) It's fun when the floor collapses onto the people on the level below....Quote:
Originally Posted by freshstart
Good luck freshstart.
Confession - I had to stop reading the missing stuff you got rid of thread. I was finding it painful. As in, it evoked a painful level of empathy for the people who were missing their stuff - most of whose personal discomfort levels were probably right up there with what i feel when I realize the cookies are gone... "oh drat, we're out of cookies, i really wanted one....moves on."
Today while I was at work, the construction guys moved some of my stuff so they could work. I actually manged to handle it with minimal discomfort - I looked at where the bins were before they moved them, looked at the bins, saw that everything was ok, and left it alone. I did not open the bins to check on them, or move them again, or feel a moment of panic or need to talk to dh about it. My brain just went "why are there two bins there? Oh, they had to swing a board though that space. They didn't hit the cabinet. Ok, I guess the bins are fine in their new space. I think I'll go see how much of the concrete forms are up..."
That is a big step for me.
And I am not going to worry about them (or you guys) judging me for having two bins labelled "baskets". I used to have 5 bins of baskets. And they weren't labelled either. Eventually I hope to have all the baskets in use, in cupboards, combined with the bins labeled "Easter", or gone. But that is one of those jobs I am picking at, so for now, when I need a basket, I know where they are. And I can handle people moving them.
Ack, I did not mean to do the above, I apologize. I'm in such a strange head place and am not my usual personality, I can't even explain it. And I so apologize for redundancy, I honestly do not remember what I said in which thread. Ah, I should start checking my account and check what I've already said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
no judgment zone on two baskets
Chicken lady, I am really impressed with your ability to work thru the issues however large or small they might be to anyone else. I could feel the difficulty you felt in your words.
Oh freshstart, no big deal. I stopped reading. It's my responsibility.
I think in general a person should attempt to behave in ways that will not negatively impact a normal, reasonable human. And nothing you posted should be a problem for a normal, reaonable human! But there are areas in which I am not normal or reasonable, and I know that, and those are my issues to manage, not other people's (ok, I do put some of that on those close to me who should know better, but not the world in general)
Sweetana3, thank you.
Let me add my kudos to you, too, Chickenlady. When you give details of your emotional reactions to, and thoughts about your stuff, it is fascinating. It really helps me understand a collector mentality. It's educational, thanks for adding to my knowledge base! Your story is NOT like the train wrecks pictured on TV reality shows, those are gawker fests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Your strategies for dealing with this issue are fascinating and your self awareness is very cool.
My cousin, who I love very much, is a "neat and tidy" hoarder. He collects mostly paper products and in another life he would have been one of those college professors with an office piled high to the ceiling with journals and reports and papers. In real life he has stuff that doesn't exist elsewhere, and anyone who thinks it all resides on the web now lives in LaLa land, so I have some respect for some of his obscure items. He has paths through his house.
He was like that from the time he was a kid. His bedroom was tiny and he had things piled up to near the ceiling. He lived for more than a decade in a small one bedroom apartment, and though I never saw it, it was full of stuff. Then he moved to a far more spacious place and I fear what will happen to that place. But whatever, he can live the way he wants, it's not hurting anyone.
I hate those shows, because they get the psychology right and they even explain it, but then they get all confrontational and in the hoarder's face with a camera because actually showing how you calmly and supportively helped a person make resonable progress is too slow and boring. And most of the time I want to yell at the family that they are hurting the person and making the actual problem worse even if the space is getting better.
Today they poured the foundation walls.
Interesting letter/article about a recovering hoarder and the holiday season we're apparently already in.
http://www.freep.com/story/life/advi...vice/73827846/
Oh yes, the holiday season starts by October!
I quite understand the letter writer's position. I am "blessed" with a mother in law who feels that love is expressed through gifts every December. She has a special monetary formula for exactly how much it is appropriate to love each person on her list based on their degree of relation to her. Grandchildren may be loved by check once they enroll in a Post-high school educational program.
There is a carefully choreographed gift opening ceremony in which each participant must recieve, in addition to appropriate monetary value, an appropriate number of packages (so if one daughter in law has 12 gifts, each daughter in law must have twelve gifts.)
She is willing to buy me pretty much anything I ask for as long as it fits those criteria (although I have not tried requesting, say, a case of laundry soap) but she begins to be annoyed with me every August when she wants to have finished her shopping and I still have made no requests. She then begins e-mailing me photos of things she thinks I should want (almost never do). Last year I had to ask for three books I had planned to check out of the library. That was ok, because she expects you to get rid of non-reference books after you read them (why would anyone re-read a book?) and the bookstore gave me $5.
So far this year I have requested two large rubber buckets for the goats and a good stethoscope (also for the goats). If I can get close enough, she will fill in with fancy teas and chocolates.
An interesting form of hoarding... http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/T...regulated-dams
Also!
bae: Might be of interest to you, amigo.
http://michiganradio.org/post/how-fi...rding#stream/0
My dad is a hoarder and my mom the enabler, she also has OCD I think. The hoard is limited to the whole garage and my dads workroom which is the spare bedroom.I came to visit and walk in on the garage which is a source of shame stuff up to the ceiling of valuable antique clocks and furniture mixed with piles of boxes newspapers and receipts. I offered to help clean it out but my mom got upset to stop touching things and could decide my dad went to check the trash to see what was tossed out. I spent a few trips trying to toss out a few broken lamps and other people's broken things and hand me down furniture. I came out of a home thinking it was normal. When I got married we lived ina 3rd story 2 bedroom apartment with 2 kids under age 2 no storage one day I was taking an old picture out of the closet when the frame broke and the glass fell out almost on my crawling baby I stopped it with my knee and ended up getting stitches. That was the moment when I knew the clutter can kill me and hurt my kids. Then we moved to a house which we filled up with stuff. N ow I am trying to minimalise and enjoy our shrinking home with another baby and all the baby stuff. To finish the story my parents may have to sell thier home next spring of 25 years of hoarding and my mom suggested that I bring myself, my husband and teen sons to clear out their house of garbage. I answer no I will not clean your mess for you.
how did she take that? it's good to know your boundaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia
With my mom, we have learned after 35 yrs of me trying to help her, even when I was just a kid, that we do not play well together with her hoarding. Although, when they got the biggest dumpster you can rent and filled it twice, I got great satisfaction out of heaving stuff in there.
Just saw this, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
Around here, when we detect it is a hoarder-house and if fire conditions look bad, we go defensive, pull out, and protect surrounding exposures. It's simply too risky to be inside. Sucks to be the hoarder down inside, but we all want to go home at night.
Medical calls, I've had to take people out a window that I chainsawed into door size. Sucks to be their insurance company :-)
At least you get them out!Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I am just angry at my parents for living like that, they make the mess and Im there to clean it out. I can help but not the metaphor of me being the community streetsweeper. The have a mardi gars party and Im there for the clean up. It feels degrading since they dont appreciate the "good" daughter that I am. While other parents have rude disrespectful adult children and they would do anything to count in their lives. The buck stops here and now.
So Sylvia, are you going to stop helping them?
I think I mentioned that my uncle is he worst hoarder in my family? He took home so much stuff from my grandmother's estate! His house was already packed. My cousin and I are very close, and at one point, when he was loading things into his car that really should have been recycled, she grabbed my arm so hard it hurt and said "you're going to help me, right? I can't do this. I'm an only child!". I don't think I'm ever going to forget the look in her eyes.
My aunt recently rented a dumpster. My mom says he is putting things into it. My dad says "not very fast.". If feel bad for all of them because I understand all the sides. My cousin or ties that hr mom will leave. I doubt it. She's in her 70s, it's a very nice house, and there is a lot of money. Mostly my aunt has been getting him to travel a lot.
You need to consider your personal mental health. So making the buck stop is a good plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia
What resources are you turning to in order to get help stopping the buck?
I think that they are starting to pick up cold shoulder undertones from me. I did explain to then what was my problem and why I feel what I do, So they are aware. Next whenever my mom complains about the hoard and having to move next year I suggest what my dad can do since he is the man of the house like get an auction company to appraise her things and that will bring her money. I am not offering to come down there anymore, I also dont want any of their stuff. They will have to deal with their own consequences. Yea thats easy to say we will just have to play it by ear.I wont be the good daughter anymore, just the daughter that lives far away like the rest of their friends have.It's something that just clicked in me, when my baby boy was born on my 40th birthday I felt complete and happy with this blessing and time to live my own life and its actually ok to be happy where you are not about when you get the house car and career etc.
It is very hard for me to understand my mom's hoarding. I just see "stuff" -- even my own stuff (perhaps especially my own stuff) and I feel it is unimportant or fairly easily substituted or just a tool.
She thinks all sorts of things are valuable or "worth something."
So for her and I to talk about anything related to stuff or materialism is just impossible.
yea I can relate to that in my case I am an adult child of an alcoholic. We can discuss anything but "that". Recently "that" is causing her to forget our conversations and its almost like Alzheimer's is starting too. I always had a secret wish she would pick me instead of the bottle.
Doesn't it seem like picking you instead of the bottle is a "no-brainer?"Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia
My sis and I feel this way about my mom and her hoard. To some degree we feel this was about my dad and his hoard too, but again, I really think my dad only hoards because my mom does it. Though I could be wrong.
My sis often laments along these lines: "I wish we just had a normal mom and dad, the kind you can have normal holidays with or who just looked and acted normal."
While this does not get at the heart of the issue it still makes a lot of sense as a lament.
For me I just cannot fathom how my mom cares more for her hoard than her kids or how the hoard is even in competition.
But I do have a few theories...
((sylvia and UA))
I'll think I "get" my mom's hoard but in reality, I'm pissed because it has come between us and I never thought it would do that when she was rounding the last stretch. I thought time with us would be all she would want. But instead the perpetual anxiety about her hoard and the self-induced pressure to change 50 yrs worth of hoarding, now at her weakest when others must do it for her, well, I just hadn't counted on that still being an issue. That in dying she would transcend her worries about material things.
And we cannot talk about it without her immediately becoming angry and there being recriminations just like usual. Even when I am trying to talk differently about it than I did when she was well, coming at it from a different frame of mind. We say in hospice all the time, people usually die as they have lived. Yet I cannot accept that here. I want the Lifetime movie- hours spent just talking and reminiscing about the good old days, full of love, laughter and tears as I care for her. Not shrieked at by a harridan because I tidied a pile of paper falling over.
Last night, after I had helped her take her meds at 3am (she is OCD about meds, left to her own devices, she will spend an hour just to take one pill, many rituals), tucked her in and got her settled, I found out this morning, she got up and went down to the basement! I have no idea how the hell she managed this since getting to her own BR is a struggle and the two steps into the house take her forever. There are not enough lights down there and it feels to me like someone took what was semi-organized and threw it up in the air, letting it fall where it may. There are no longer safe pathways through the hoard. Last week, I tripped on a disgusting, huge, ancient carpet rolled up where the walkway was and I landed on a huge bag of loose lightbulbs. I amazingly did not get cut but what if that had been her? No one would hear her yelling for help. (she was pissed that the light bulbs are no longer, arghh.) Anyway, she had to find coffee cups and glasses because with my brother and his GF here, we had run out of room in the dishwasher for these items. Rather than letting us sensibly just wash what was left or break into the china cupboard, she went on a mission to find the extras in the basement. She could not find them, is pissed beyond belief that someone (that would be me) "moved them". Meanwhile everyone is shocked and upset that she even tried those stairs and her oxygen does not go that far. She doesn't get that part, it was all about that she could not find what she had to have. I became so sick of everyone talking about her stupidly dangerous foray into the hoard, I told my dad we are putting a child proof lock on that door, she is not going down there at 4 am alone again ever. I don't care if I am taking away her independence and separating her from the majority of her hoard.
I'm rambling but ITA it is painful and sucky when hoarding or alcoholism or pick your poison, becomes more important than you and your family. That the person is picking their vice over you, even if it's an illness and they can't help it. You can understand that on paper til the cows come home, IRL it blows.
Yes freshstart thank you your sharing the reality. My parents are in their late 60's and 70's so one step away from the golden years.My mom is a breast cancer survivor and had to stop drinking during chemo. She sobered up but became very sad and kept talking about her childhood, how good it was like Shirley Temple good, cute dresses , princess lifestyle, youth and beauty. Now we know she feels better because she is drinking again, my dad too drinks away every nite after work. What goes on in their minds I dont know but at their worse they are the two crazies of "Who is afraid of Virginia Wolf" to the T.So dear freshstart you know what you need to do, keep your mom safe so you have a clear conscience. Maybe the hoard is what is keeping her going.I had an elderly friend she was terminal and she told me" I better get a move on clearing those piles of papers because I dont have much time". Im thinking if you are terminal go on a cruise or something special, not cleaning up.
I am sorry you guys are struggling with this stuff.
I am feeling pretty good right now though. All my kids are home. We had "thanksgiving" dinner and used and enjoyed the good china. And burned the pretty candles. It was lovely!
While we were doing that the basement flooded again. I did go down and mop it up a little while people were doing dishes. But I am just over it. It is what it is and I will deal with it when the construction is tight. Meanwhile, stuff will just get wet and it will be ok or not.
Dd2 has been making yarn and buttons from the hoard into Christmas gifts for all of her friends. It has not taken me more than 5 minutes to find anyhing she has asked for.
thank you. Your situation sounds so hard. I really hope (although my teens think I already have ruined their lives, lol) I never project any major issues onto my kids that they have to carry through their entire lives unless they get good therapy. I know my mom did not choose to be this way, but she did choose to never get help for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia
Yes, I wish they would want help or be like those recovering types that spend the rest of their lives making it up to people. We all want our parents to heal, which in turn helps us heal.
Heroin addiction has something like a 10% recovery rate, according to a documentary I watched last night. So 90% of addicts never kick.Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia
So far -- though the research is new -- it is more likely for a junkie to kick heroin than it is for a hoarder to declutter.
Well, to kick heroin, you have to not do something. To de-hoard, you have to do something. And you can completely avoid heroin (I have completely avoided heroin for 47 years - never seen any as far as I know.) but you cannot completely avoid stuff. Even Ultralightangler needs some stuff and it is everywhere.
I had serious IV drugs once. I was in labor. And never again. It was the most amazing rush. I am quite sure I could becomes junkie very easily. Alcoholism also runs in my family. I remember reading something once about "addictive personalities" and sometimes I wonder if all this stuff is intertwined genetically and it is only our environment that makes it be expressed differently.
Relating to the original topic - I am working on my studio again today and I have thrown out a lot of plastic stuff that can't be recycled. This is still hard for me, but not as hard as it used to be. There were a couple of plastic containers that came as packaging for store bought desserts and I saved them because I thought they might be useful as molds. I told myself right out loud "if you miss this mold, I give you permission to go to the store and buy another pudding cake and eat the whole thing.". And I was actually able to laugh.
Also, I know that it is not your intent, and I do really feel horrible for everyone who is dealing with this, but reading your words makes me feel good about my progress. I am in the top 10%! I can do this for my kids! I wish that your parents could also. I wish I knew how to help.
Several good points here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I know I have an addictive personality, or at least it feels like it. This is why I am teetotal and straight edge. I am not taking any chances!
When I like something I get very, very intense about it. And even if I don't like something but I see much to be gained from it I still get very, very intense about it.
Fishing, Indian food, simple living, etc.
And kudos to you for doing this for your kids! It is a struggle, I'd bet.
I had an addictive personality in regards to becoming very intense about certain things, certain topics. Political issues being one- actively campaigning, debating, discussing, pulling things apart with likeminded people or not likeminded people who were looking to debate. Literature, few vegan years, feminist agenda, gun control, etc. That's mostly gone with these brain changes. The feelings are less intense and I no longer wish to discuss anything in depth because I no longer really can and that becomes abundantly clear after a few sentences in. So I'm hoping with certain areas of "addiction", such as my mild hoarding of a few types of things, food issues, will dull as well. I may as well gain something from my dumbing down. It is very strange to lose the pit bull part of your personality, well, not lost but tamed.
I turned down xanax for years out of fear of addiction, during times it was desperately needed. I finally tried it and have been on it for years, not used daily, sometimes not used in a month. It sits in the bottle and I have zero addictive feelings towards it. I'm the same way with pain meds. Hmm, maybe I don't have an addictive personality, no, I do, just luckily not for harmful substances.
perfect example of being dumbed down, this post, lol
I think I have a chocolate /sugar addiction and will get up sometimes at night for a bite which is very strange IMO. Been trying to kick that bad habit for years not to mock real drug addicts but it's hard.Just when I got over it Halloween comes around the corner I'm picking through my kid's candy.:( I cannot imagine Heroine -where people lose jobs and families, ultimately their lives. Tragic. Sadly relapse can be triggered by simple pain medecine.
So yesterday I threw away a fancy plastic container that came with candy in it. It sat on my counter for six weeks after I ate the candy, because it just looked so interesting and potentially useful.
but here's the thing - while it was hard to throw it out, it wasn't emotionally hard to throw it out! When I finally made the decision, I didn't feel that flood of uncertainty and self-doubt. And when I put it in the trash can, there was no twinge of regret. Just a sense of a job done, like when I finish loading the dishwasher.
this is a big deal.
I believe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I agree, big deal.
I am feeling overwhelmed again. I picked dd2 up from college, and an entire stuffed carload of her belongings has now been added back to my full house.
also I am worried about her. She went thrift shopping repeatedly with friends the last two weeks of school "to get away from exam stress" and brought home an entire, huge black garbage bag full of shoes.
that is pretty classic - the hoarder feels stress, the hoarder acquires stuff, the hoarder feels better, even good! the rush wears off, the hoarder acquires more stuff....
the hoarder's college roommate gives the hoarder's mom a look of concern as they are trying to stuff all the hoarder's belongings into the car......
the black humor part of me is thinking "maybe I could get her to hoard earrings instead...."
but the ret of me is thinking, "we need to spend a bunch of time together this summer cleaning out this house" (behavior therapy)
how is she with helping to clean out?
I have a funny shoe story with my mother. When I was about 14 and my family was in a better financial place, my mom and I went to the Talbot's Outlet. They were having $3 and $4 sale on shoes because the sizes were really small and came in narrow. Our size! We bought EIGHTY pairs of shoes that day. I could not believe my mother was letting me buy 40 pairs of shoes, I didn't see the hoarder component in this, I was just a teen who thought she had hit the motherload. The difference is I wore my shoes for years and years to come. She saved hers "for good" and by the time "good" came around her foot was no longer narrow. We laughed and told that story over the years but it really wasn't all that funny seeing as how she never wore hers.
As far as the actual cleaning out, we make very little progress together, but the mental work of facing the mess and sorting through it and making decisions helps curb the urge to acquire and builds muscle for next time - so maybe we spend all afternoon, and everything is neater, and cleaner, and we got rid of one grocery bag of stuff. But later in the week, we encounter more opportunities for decision making, and another grocery bag of stuff drifts out as we go along. What is important is to continually refocus and move generally in the right direction.