Americans need to learn a tough lesson about doing dumb stuff and how it has consequences. Maybe this would ultimately lead to a bright, shiny new age!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenngal
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Americans need to learn a tough lesson about doing dumb stuff and how it has consequences. Maybe this would ultimately lead to a bright, shiny new age!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenngal
But doing dumb stuff doesn't have consequences. We all saw what happened to the bankers after they crashed the economy and needed $5 trillion in bailouts. They all got bonuses and kept their jobs and lived happily ever after.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
Pro Publica does a regular update on the status of the bailout. They say that thus far the Feds paid out $618 billion (of which the banks accounted for about 40%) and have collected $683 billion for a profit to the Treasury of about $65 billion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/
And QE was $4 trillion of purchases of bad debt from the banks.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
And the feds have made about $500 billion on that program since 2008. The "bad debt" they bought were largely securities the government had already guaranteed, or in the case of agency issues formally accepted the "moral hazard" at the outset of the crisis. I do think QE has some shortcomings from a monetary policy standpoint that we will pay for in future years, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
There were plenty of private and public players in the 2008-2009 crisis. Simply identifying "banksters" as the scapegoat may play well politically, but it falls short as an explanation of what happened. I don't think you can reduce it, as Bernie Sanders has, to a sort of morality play.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...109-story.html
Yes Federal Reserve QE money is different than the money the article is talking about which is just TARP plus Fannie/Freddie money. Oh you hear a lot of arguments about QE, how it's not really money being given, it's money and not money, it's not just QE but Quantum Mechanics money, who can really say if it is or isn't money being given, all I can conclude is it seems to me someone had to have gotten that money (not all the banks although to a large extent, wasn't global QE also bailing out major corporations like Caterpillar?).Quote:
And QE was $4 trillion of purchases of bad debt from the banks.
this I do not get, isn't the highway dept government work and isn't government work about as stable a job as you can possibly have? (or is it different in Tennessee?). Ok I know nothing about the job conditions, but it seems those workers might actually know much LESS economic insecurity than pretty much everyone else. Have vast privilege they can't see (and I don't mean white privilege) This DOES NOT seem to be the angry white people falling out of the middle class or with precarious jobs, but people who have as much middle class job stability as anyone in the U.S. now. But it does make some sense, we want to see the Trump followers as those who are really suffering in this economy (and many white people are too, and some might have been middle class at one time, and they might be angry about it ...), but fascist collations are more often made up of more stable middle class types.Quote:
My husband works for the hwy dept and 90% of them are for Donald Trump. They are the angry, white (for the most part) middle class. They long for the days when life was more simple, when Dad worked (not mom) and supplied the family with all they needed. No ISIS, no terrorists, there were jobs you could stay with for a lifetime and retire. Health care was affordable.
well there are several problems with this:Quote:
Americans need to learn a tough lesson about doing dumb stuff and how it has consequences. Maybe this would ultimately lead to a bright, shiny new age!
1) Cruz is NOT the obviously dumb choice as Cruz is NOT the one saying the most obviously dumb stuff of the R's by far. My first if imperfect path to get a handle on these dozens and dozens of Rs was the debates (which I often read). In the debates the most reasonable sounding R to me was Rand Paul, but he dropped out. And the runner up may be Cruz. I don't like to say that but .... perhaps it's a reality best acknowledged. So we have to analyze more than just what they say in the debates: Cruz makes the most reasonable points does not equal Cruz is a good choice. Cruz is SLICK, slick as an oil spill, he will SAY ANYTHING to get elected, but if you investigate his background he seems to be a serious theocrat and deeply personally dislikable and ethically questionable (just the "Carson dropped out" scandal alone). So you can't just believe what a politician says. Yes, yes, you would have thought that the Obama administration would have taught people that, but I don't think we're talking about the same voting pool :) I think it did teach some of the Obama voting pool that and they are trying to find a guy that seems incorruptible (Sanders).
2) I don't think bad consequences lead to people becoming smarter. W was reelected twice. The first W administration was about as bad a consequence as anyone could have wished and he got reelected (yes Kerry is an idiot but he was NOT W - that alone should have got him elected as the W administration was as much of a disaster as anyone could have wished for). I think if anything at the voting booth will lead to people becoming smarter it's electing better and better people, then the overall political environment will improve and the electorate will follow and become smarter (yes of course it also has to lead to some degree). I don't necessarily believe in a strict punishment model here so much as I believe in viscous and virtuous circles, viscous circles continue dragging downward, virtuous circles build upward.
even those who paid back money were allowed to do dubious stuff, like get money from the feds at a lower interest rate, invest it right in treasuries at a higher interest rate, and keep the difference. If the masses of Americans in debt were given that kind of deal maybe they could pay back their loans easier as well .... by the magic of free money.Quote:
And the feds have made about $500 billion on that program since 2008.
So, by my math and that stories' numbers the fed earned approximately 2.19% on all the QE purchased debt, at least for the year 2014. It'd be interesting to know what the face rate was on all the QE debt so that we could learn just how much of it actually went bad. In other words, if the average rate on all the QE debt was 4.38% then half of it, or $2 trillion really was garbage and in fact a gift from the fed to the banks. If, on the other hand, the rate on all the QE purchased debt was close to the 2.19% that the fed earned then there wasn't much of a gift to bankers, but that would also beg the question, what exactly was the point of QE.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
That yield isn't all that bad in the current environment. Ten year treasuries, for instance, are yielding about 1.76% at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
QE, for all it's faults, was instituted for monetary reasons when the Fed ran out of rate-setting ammunition.
And I'm not saying the banks are completely blameless. I'm saying the crisis was a perfect storm of bad decisions by government, the financial industry and the great American public. Scapegoating one particular group adds nothing to an understanding of what happened. No villains are required, unless you've got a political agenda to sell.
Who was it who said "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity"?
If the bankers are just as stupid as the naive public who took out loans they can't afford, that would seem to be a good reason for better banking regulations.
It's true that treasury rates are that low but if the debts that were bought with QE had higher rates than it's irrelevant to my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
You make Theft By Deception sound very innocent. If someone sold you a Rolex watch but you found out later it was a counterfeit .......would that be theft?Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Like any other securities transaction, past prices and yields are irrelevant to what a willing buyer pays a willing seller. It was my understanding that the Fed purchased securities at market. Higher rate paper would have been sold to the Fed at a discount. Whoever chose to sell securities to the Fed got the market value on that particular day, realizing a gain or loss based on what they originally paid. The intention was to generate liquidity in the economy, not to either help or hurt bankers or "Wall Street". Basically, it was one step up from simply printing money.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
Not innocent, but part of a larger situation. People lied about income and assets to get mortgages to buy houses they couldn't afford. Mortgage originators didn't apply due diligence in making the loans. Government agencies pushed banks to make loans to "underserved" borrowers. Banks packaged loans into securities, and government agencies guaranteed them and investors bought them, all with inadequate due diligence. Then the underlying asset, housing, failed to appreciate in price quickly enough to keep the process going. It's hard for me to see dastardly villains and innocent victims here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Williamsmith
If someone offers to sell you a Rolex for ten bucks, and it turns out to be a Rolecks when you buy it without looking it over, are you completely blameless?
I guess I haven't managed to make myself clear. What I want to know is how much of the debt the fed bought from the banks has gone into default. Was it a negligible amount, half, two thirds, how much. That amount matters because it's appalling to think about trillions of dollars being printed to purchase worhthless "assets" from the banks at full face value. And frankly, absent any contrary proof, it seems reasonable to assume that it was a majority of that debt.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
We'll probably never know because the fed does not operate with transparency, as evidenced by the extreme reaction whenever anyone, such as Ron Paul, suggests that they should be audited.
The angry white middleclass claimed another victory tonight in South Carolina. It looks good for Trump in Nevada. Cruz took it on the chin.....it's all downhill from here. Tomorrow is the Daytona 500. Lots of celebrating going on at Bubbas house tomorrow.
Well Mr. Trump took it to the house in Nevada getting somewhere in the mid forty percent of the vote. That's a thumping of Cruz and Rubio. It is fitting that the state most known for its debauchery by the religious right handed Cruz his latest humbling defeat.
Really the angry white middleclass should thank Cruz for the newest Trump victory. For all the talk of purity, consistency and honesty, his campaign has failed to live up to its promises. And his followers are the Christian Right.......they are the least forgiving people in the world when it comes to mistakes.
No surprise, Cruz doesnt have a friend in the government either. They all spurned him early in his career and he has lashed out at them and his own anger turns people off. It does not mix well with his holier than thou attitude. So on to the next rout. Trump is nearly unstoppable at this point.
Another Budweiser please.
Trump! Trump! Trump!
Only 9 more months of this................
Mr. Trump seems to have done surprisingly well with Latino voters, even running against two Latino opponents. It's nice to see at least one party not enslaved by identity politics.
Perhaps Williamsmith's "angry white middleclass" narrative is too narrow.
All those Latino votes were employees of the Las Vegas elites. When choosing ....choose where your bread is buttered. In California and Arizona, New Mexico and Florida........but by then it will not matter. I still think Cruz might just lose Texas. Senior Cruz es el perdedor.
Did you hear his precious quote in his acceptance speech--"I love the poorly educated!" He is unbelievable. Really, what a P.T. Barnum. I think I might just go read The Art of the Deal for some insights on how to get a stampede of new clients.
Trump is the perfect politician for Americans. He really is. I am highly likely to vote for him if he makes it to the general election.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
Don't you love the poorly educated?Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
The Donald's heart must have been full of love that night. He expressed it for evangelicals, Hispanics, Guantanamo and pretty much everyone in his extended family. It sort of reminded me of an Oscar acceptance speech, except perhaps less overtly political.
Really zingin' 'em today, Buckley!Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
The right to be angry and take it out on anyone and everyone unrelated to the source of that anger (aka voting for the guy who advocates killing Muslims with pig blood drenched bullets), and to get an amazing pass for this, that no one else gets, seems itself an aspect of white privilege.
I wouldn't call it white privilege so much as immunity by repetition. Much like Joe Biden saying so many imbecilic things that people just sort of say "That's just Joe talking" and let it go, Trump has learned that if you insult everything on two legs, the insults over time lose their ability to shock (especially at a time when people are becoming tired of a sort of politically correct weaponization of offense-taking). He's positioned himself as a sort of Don Rickles of American politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
The white angry middleclass knows it's coming. The silence is deafening. The establishment has gone past crisis mode on to full on freak. They are staring right at a complete humiliation and repudiation of their weak punk *ss politics. Trump is poised to take all and not leave any room for a convention debate.
Bush failed them miserably. Cruz won't go away after Iowa pumped him full of pride.....he's going down and taking whoever he can with him. The establishment is not surprised and more than a little pissed.
So what's a party to do? It can't wait until after Super Tuesday, by then it will be too late. Rubio is the only great Cuban hope with which to hang your hat on and he can deliver Florida if.......by Tuesday somehow they can create the illusion that he can get enough delegates to keep Trump from running the table and they have hope going into the convention.
Will Kasich be willingly to hang up his campaign for the promise of VP? You betcha. And deliver Ohio.... Is it wiser to ask Carson to quit or ask him to stay to suck votes away from Cruz? That's a tough one but I think they have to go all in for the river draw. Carson must endorse Rubio also.
There it is....Pickett's Charge. The angry white middleclass is waiting to see the whites of their eyes.
I hope Rubot does not pull off a comeback.
Trump! Trump! Trump!
While I appreciate your purple prose, I will decline your offer to panic at this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Williamsmith
There are many votes yet to be cast and delegates to be allocated. As the GOP herd thins, it will be harder for Trump to hide in a fog of frothy rhetoric without being forced to say what he actually stands for. From his utterances to date, he thinks more like a Democrat than a Republican on a number of issues, and that will emerge.
I don't know which I fear more: The Donald setting the conservative cause back a generation, or four years of your taunts.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
I hope you are wrong; I fear you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Tonight's debate should be a pretty good indication. If the non-lunatic fringe goes after Trump instead of one another, I will maintain some hope. Make him explain his fondness for Vladimir Putin or Single Payer Healthcare. Ask how it's possible for a "winner" to lose money running Casinos. Elaborate on some of his more memorable statements. I think the guy's vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler
I'd like to see Trumps tax returns. Last I noticed, he said he would make them public when Hillary revealed her emails, which I read as a stall tactic. Could be a good debate topic if he paid as little as one could suspect and he's hinting at new taxes on the rich.
Every time some pundits report what a terrible debate showing trump has......his numbers go up. The angry white middleclass love Vladimir Putin's in your face politics. They want somebody to stand up to the rest of the world and not bow and kiss their rings. What could be worse than the Obamination care we have now. Single payer doesn't scare an angry white blue collar struggling worker who can't afford any real illness or they will lose their jobs. Casinos are wildly popular among the middleclass and poor. Everybody knows organized crime is involved in the casino industry and I'm not referring to politicians or am I. The angry white middleclass loves all his offensive words......don't wait for anyone to abandon him. You better be figuring out how to overtake him.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Let me me know when that light of hope dims to where you have to squint to see it......
I plan to be front and center (of the TV) for tonight's debate hoping for that very outcome. Sadly however, I'm guessing Cruz will try to grab a little home field advantage and will try hard to lampoon Trump, but teflon Don won't see much stick. Rubio will try to work in lots of sound bites of Cruz flip-flopping and hope to pick any Trump voters Cruz offends if Donald falters. Trump will not get pressed to reveal any substantial position on any subject, but will instead spend most of the evening interrupting Cruz and Rubio so they won't get to reveal anything substantial, either. Kasich will have time to make notes for his campaign suspension speech. Carson will have time to think about replacing Adam in the Sistine Chapel.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Im sorry Rogar........if Trump got away with tax evasion or legal loopholes....all that does is give him street Cred. The WAMC can spin any so called vulnerability into a strength. No, it's past time to try take take him down. Someone needs to win the hearts of the American people if it's not too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
Gregg, I don't want to leave you out. CNN is ginning up tonight's debate like it was an Ali - Frazier rematch. I guess that's the business but the truth is.......the debate matters little. By Tuesday, any bump Cruz or Rubio get will have evaporated. They are actually talking about "mayhem" happening. C'mon. I think it is going to be underwhelming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg
Trump is not for single payer. The level of ignorance of the actual positions Trump has taken is off the charts (I know issues are an epiphenomena to the Trump phenomena, he's not about ideas to be sure. But really pretending Trump is your guy if you want single payer is simply WRONG). Here's the thing: Trump came out for single payer once long ago (so there is a slight amount of historical truth to that), but has since come out against it in the debates (didn't anyone follow any of the debates? I admit I couldn't stomach them all but some ... I know these are weasly unstrustable politicians and narcissists, but what they say is still a better guide to what they will do, than making stuff up out of whole cloth.).
It was asked as a debate question whether Trump favors single payer like Sanders or something and he does not. And yet people think Trump is the guy who is going to be fighting for single payer (even Sanders has limited ability to implement it without Congress, but he is for it, he has a section on his website on issues called "Medicare for All", so make no mistake he had made it one of his issues). Someone who waffles on their positions like Trump is not going to put up a fight for single payer (they will probably just leave the status quo - that is the ACA in place, whatever they say, that is the path of least resistance for an issues they seem to care so little about anyway as to be constantly waffling on).
If Trump was for single payer I'd vote for him, no doubt about it!