sorry Ziggy, for me and millions of others its ABO, anybody but Obama, even if I have to hold my nose and vote for goodhair.
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sorry Ziggy, for me and millions of others its ABO, anybody but Obama, even if I have to hold my nose and vote for goodhair.
Catwoman, do you really think that will help? For me a few years ago, and 4 years before that, it was ABB, but frankly I haven't seen much of a difference in the past 27 months from the previous 96. We've got even more wars going on, more bank bailouts going on (from what I saw no one in the mainstream press, except Planet Money, even mentioned the 1.25B purchase of garbage assets from banks that the federal reserve did even though this was nearly 50% bigger than the original TARP), the re-upping of the Patriot Act, more demonization of medical marijuana, etc. Regardless of what happens in November 2012 I expect the 48 months beginning in January 2013 will be pretty much the same as the previous 48 months. They'll be all about big, rich, connected people and corporations continuing to get rich at the expense and pain of all of us "little people".
I thought I did a pretty good job of providing citations, however, upon retrospect I should have taken the time to look up and properly cite the allegation regarding the Southern Center For Human Rights. This is a link to an open letter from Stephen Bright, former director of the SCHR for your perusal.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
As for my comments about selling fear, a simple google search will show lots of commentary and examples. In case you don't have the time, here's one for your consideration.
On your request to discuss the morally neutral/morally manipulative discernment, I think that's probably best reserved for a thread of it's own. If you'd like to start one, I'll be happy to give you my thoughts on that as well.
Yes, jp1, I do think it will help because most of the problems you describe can be laid at the feet of BHO. He's gotta go!!!
Catwoman, I hope you're right. Personally I don't agree. Obama didn't start the problem, he's just continuing policies that were long in place before he arrived. The next occupant of the white house, whether he moves in in 2013 or 2017, will likely continue them.
Oh, oh, oh, yeah right! It couldn't have been anything GWB did, because he went directly to the Lord in prayer before he made the big decisions he did. Give me a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by alan
There are valid arguments for some of the charges leveled against Mr. Dees, and many have disagreed with the SPLCs focus on high profile cases, (and, yes, some personal grandstanding over the years, and marketing methods), but the SPLC and Mr. Dees and company hit on what has proven to be the most effective way to deal blows to hate groups, which is to go after their pocketbooks. And by taking them to court, and winning lawsuits against their assets, they have crippled the operations of a number of groups that were spreading hatred and advocating violence.
Most groups use the most lurid marketing possible.....face it, the Family Association under discussion as a sponsor of the planned "prayer" extravaganza has done it's own lurid marketing, and in their case, outright lying, about gays and lesbians, and has played on the fears of homophobic and fundamentalist people to gin up fears of "the homosexual agenda", "destroying our young people", etc.
The Democrats send out literature that makes it seem that if Republicans are elected, our country will fall apart, and the Republicans seem to think that somehow Barack Obama (and not Congress) is at fault for everything that is wrong in this country, including much that was going on or had already happened before he even became President. Marketing is mostly what happens in this society, and most want to push their agenda, as opposed to asking themselves what behaviors would be best for our society and how they can compromise and work with people of varying viewpoints to move our country forward. That is just reality.
I don't think that most who "lean right" support hate groups, Alan, and that isn't what I said. I should hope that all Americans of any intelligence, right or left, would want to stand up against hatred and violence against any people as a group, especially when such groups are being attacked simply for their race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.
As I said, I'm glad that the SPLC is there, standing in the breach, trying to protect against hatred. Perhaps there are people (I'm sure there are) who see the American Family Association as standing in the breach, trying to protect "real Americans" from that homosexual agenda, gays trying to subvert and destroy Christian young people, etc. I'm just not one of them, and I hate that my governor is associating himself with such hatred and bigotry.
I agree that's not what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by loosechickens
But it is what you implied. Thanks for almost clearing that up.Quote:
One would think that even most rightwingers in this country would find it distasteful to be aligned with these haters, but.......
Well, certainly SOME rightwingers are supportive of those groups, since most of those groups have a distinctly "rightwing" flavor and orientation. But I certainly don't think most Republicans/conservatives would countenance the KKK, Aryan Nation, etc.
But to call the SPLC "left wing" or say that it comes down on the "left" all the time, because of their work against such groups is to say, I guess, that care about civil rights, protection of vulnerable groups being discriminated against, harassed, mistreated and lied about is just a "left" issue, as opposed to an American issue. Which puzzles me. Because it's hard for me to see anyone, right or left oriented, who would want to defend hate groups, or call the people who fight against them "left". I would think that fighting against hatred and bigotry would be an AMERICAN issue, and as such, people would be standing up against it, not supporting it.
Which is why I am angry and upset that my governor is aligning himself with a group that preaches hate and lies and misleads about gays and lesbians in an effort to raise money through fear that the "homosexual agenda" is going to take over our country, and "those people" are going to defile our young people, molest them and are sexual predators just by being gay or lesbian. We should ALL be standing up against such stuff.
Thanks for "almost" understanding. ;-)
Regarding the SPLC, I don't believe Mr. Dees had anything to do with the actual CREATION of the various hate groups (listed in LC's earlier post) that the organization chases after. I do think Mr. Dees and several attorneys at the SPLC have become very wealthy targeting this niche. There is a lot more public sentiment on your side and a lot less competition there than being a lawyer chasing your garden variety ambulance! Mr. Dees, et al, have identified a market and done an admirable job of securing their position in it. When you really stop to think about it you realize that the more high profile cases the SPLC takes on the more it will cause the groups they target to "take up the cause", essentially creating more and more potential profit centers for the SPLC going forward. It is a brilliant strategy! It's like the Walton family got Target to hang out a banner that says, "If red isn't your favorite color you should go to Wal-Mart". What do you suppose the numbers really are? For every person that joins a hate group and makes some noise how many others contribute to the SPLC to combat them? Ten? One hundred? Mr. Dees' posturing in the public eye may be that of a left leaning civil libertarian, but in practice he is a dyed in the wool capitalist. I admire their business plan.
Morris Dees made $344, 809 in 2010. Hardly an outrageous salary for an attorney of his specialty and at the national level.
If you want the financial details, here's where you find them:
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocument...06c27181-9.pdf
Guidestar ( http://www.guidestar.org ) is a great free website for accessing the financial data of NFP organizations. Before you donate, DO YOUR RESEARCH!
And Warren Buffett's official salary at Berkshire Hathaway is $100,000, but he was somehow able to overcome that handicap to become the third richest man in the world. I don't criticize Mr. Dees at all for making money, but don't be fooled by the SPLC marketing campaign that tells you he is sustained by his cause because he only nets $809 in a year.
http://www.splcenter.org/sites/defau...C_990_1010.pdf
The 2009 Form 990 for the SPLC. Very informative. There is a lot of profit in non-profit, you just can't take it as, well, profit.
That income figure is 89 million, BTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg
Warren Buffett's enterprise is a for-profit business. There are many more options to hide $$ in a for profit than in a NFP. I've filled out 990's, and there are no hiding places for cash in the NFP world.
And yes, NFP's are a business, like any other; something that very few people understand, I do believe. It's perfectly acceptable, in fact necessary, to take in profit. What happens with the profit is the difference. In a for-profit, profits are paid out in salaries or shareholder earnings. In a NFP, they are plowed back into the mission.
NFP's pay executive salaries along the very same lines as for-profits; that is to say depending upon the job description and the income of the organization. It is rational to pay a top executive a top salary - if it can be afforded - to make sure the organization runs well. The idea that those of us in the NFP world should somehow work for peanuts is stupid... we have all the same expenses that everyone else does. It's great to work for a lofty mission, but it's work all the same.
NFP's generally have 2 revenue streams - earned income & unearned income. Earned is just that: fee-for-service income. That can be market rate or cut rate; it's up to the organization. Unearned income encompasses individual gifts, foundation gifts and grants, government grants, & in-kind contributions.
Every NFP creates an income & expense budget each year. In early years, NFP's spend way more than they take in starting up their fundraising arm - it's a line of business. Like any other start-up venture, it takes about 5 years for fundraising to become profitable. (The only criticism I have of Guidestar is that the ratings they give NFP's don't reflect this fact, and young NFP's may have lower ratings due to spending more on fundraising than is the desired percentage, and that more mature orgs spend.)
One can easily see what the overhead is at a NFP - just ask to see their audited annual report. If they don't have a big enough budget to get audits, look at their profile in Guidestar. Ask them about their cost of doing business! NFP's want to tell potential donors about their fiscal picture. Okay, I gotta get back to writing our case statement for a major donor campaign I am launching next month!
I am often surprised at where threads wind up.
Amen and Amen!!
Gov. Rick Perry’s upcoming prayer event has concerned progressive Christian leaders in Houston, who have written a letter criticizing the governor for excluding non-Christians, partnering with an anti-gay group and blurring boundaries between church and state.
“We ask that Rick Perry leave the ministry to us and refocus his energy on the work of governing our state,” the Houston Clergy Council wrote in a letter signed by 24 local leaders, many of them Unitarian Universalists or members of other denominations that welcome GLBT Christians.
“We wanted to let people know that there are people of faith who have different stances than Gov. Perry. Often the only faith that gets covered is the religious right,” said Rev. Becky Edmiston-Lange, of Emerson Unitarian Universalist Church. “We are clergy persons who support the rights of all people, no matter who they love or how they worship.”
They argue that the nature of Perry’s event, scheduled for Aug. 6 at Reliant Stadium, does not fit with Houston’s religious diversity.
Their criticisms echo a chorus of concerned groups, including the Houston GLBT Political Caucus, the Houston chapter of the Council of American-Islamic relations and the Interfaith Alliance. About 300 Texans plan to protest the event, and the Houston Clergy Council may schedule a pro-tolerance speaker as counter-programming to Perry’s Christian-centric message. Houston’s biggest evangelical megachurches– Lakewood Church, Second Baptist and Houston’s First Baptist– have applauded Perry’s efforts to draw national attention to the need for prayer. >8)
Only one other governor has committed to join Perry at the event.
Peace
What's wrong with Perry holding one and inviting everyone (as he did)? The people who disagree with him can stay away or have their own (which I'm sure they will). I think it is the height of intolerance and hypocrisy to denounce Perry's event when they are free to attend or not, believe as they wish or not..Sigh...the lefties always need something to screech about so nobody is looking at the state of the economy or the # of wars we are in (declared or not)....
Just for the record, Gregg: from Wikipedia:
"The Southern Poverty Law Center has won many notable civil resulting in monetary awards for the plaintiffs. The SPLC has said it does not accept any portion of monetary judgments.[24][25][26]"
What the SPLC HAS done is managed to bankrupt a number of the hate groups, neutralizing their ability to spread their hatred, since money collected by them from their followers is seized by judgements, etc., awarded by courts to the people they were found guilty of having wronged.
hehehehehehe.....I thought it was CATS who "screeched", Catwoman..... ;-)
If Governor Perry, in a capacity as a private citizen, wishes to join a prayer group with anyone he likes, that is up to him. But when he as the governor of a state, invites other governors and leaders to join him in an event focusing on one religion, and only a certain faction of that religion as well, co-sponsored by a group that spreads lies, hatred and bigotry about a portion of Texas's citizens and others all over this country, then I'm certainly going to speak out about it, although I'll leave it to cats to "screech".
Need to qualify that that is your opinion Loosechickens about the lies, hatred and bigotry being spread by the group. Again, just because they are on SPLC's hitlist, doesn't make it real, or true or mesh with everyone else's opinions or beliefs. That you state that outright without any quantifiers in itself disingenuous - it may be true for you but it is not a universal truth.
Catwoman, it certainly is not just MY opinion about the lies, bigotry against gays and lesbians being spread by the American Family Association. And the SPLC is certainly not the only organization calling them out for that bigotry and spread of misinformation. You may or may not be in harmony with their beliefs (I have no idea whether you are or not), but plenty of organization and persons other than myself and the SPLC think they ARE fomenting and spreading bigotry and hate speech.
From Wikipedia, on the piece about the American Family Association: this excerpt about their speech and attempts to smear gays and lesbians:
The AFA has been criticized by a number of organizations for their stance against homosexuality.[18][80][81]
In 1998, the popular Internet filtering software CyberPatrol blocked the AFA's web site, classifying it under the category "intolerance," defined as "pictures or text advocating prejudice or discrimination against any race, color, national origin, religion, disability or handicap, gender or sexual orientation..." AFA spokesman Steve Ensley told reporters, "Basically we're being blocked for free speech." CyberPatrol cited quotes from the AFA for meeting its intolerance criteria, which included: "Indifference or neutrality toward the homosexual rights movement will result in society's destruction by allowing civil order to be redefined and by plummeting ourselves, our children, and grandchildren into an age of godlessness"; "A national 'Coming Out of Homosexuality' provides us a means whereby to dispel the lies of the homosexual rights crowd who say they are born that way and cannot change"; and "We want to outlaw public homosexuality...We believe homosexuality is immoral and leads ultimately to personal and social decay."[2][19][81] [82]
On October 19, 1998, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, led by Leslie Katz, wrote a letter to the AFA in response to an advertisement placed in the San Francisco Chronicle by the AFA regarding homosexuality and Christianity. The letter stated:[83]
Supervisor Leslie Katz denounces your rhetoric against gays, lesbians and transgendered people. What happened to Matthew Shepard is in part due to the message being espoused by your groups that gays and lesbians are not worthy of the most basic equal rights and treatment. It is not an exaggeration to say that there is a direct correlation between these acts of discrimination, such as when gays and lesbians are called sinful and when major religious organizations say they can change if they tried, and the horrible crimes committed against gays and lesbians.
During the same time, the City and County of San Francisco passed two resolutions. Resolution No. 234-99 "calls for the Religious Right to take accountability for the impact of their long-standing rhetoric denouncing gays and lesbians, which leads to a climate of mistrust and discrimination that can open the door to horrible crimes such as those committed against Mr. Gaither."[84] and Resolution No. 873-98 was specifically directed at "anti-gay" television advertisements. AFA unsuccessfully challenged these actions as violating the Free Speech and Free Exercise clauses of the First Amendment in American Family Association v. City and County of San Francisco.[83]
In 1998, multiple organizations voiced criticism of a series of AFA sponsored full-page newspaper advertisements that promoted religious ministries involved in the ex-gay movement. In response to the advertisements, the Religious Leadership Roundtable said the ads employed "language of violence and hatred to denounce other people." IntegrityUSA criticized the ads, calling them "evil" disregarding Christian teachings about the "dignity of every human being." DignityUSA also criticized the advertisements, which they said were "misleading and destructive."[85]
In July 2000, the AFA sent out emails and letters calling for openly gay Arizona Republican United States House of Representatives member Jim Kolbe to be barred from speaking at the Republican National Convention.[86] The AFA also said that Kolbe should be arrested when he returned to his home state, as because Kolbe is gay, he was violating an Arizona law that banned sodomy.[87] Equality Mississippi, a statewide LGBT civil rights organization which has voiced opposition and criticism towards the AFA's activism regarding homosexuality, felt that AFA's action was constituting and encouraging violence towards the gay community.[88]
In 2005, Equality Mississippi publicly spoke out against the AFA for the use of copyrighted images on the AFA web site in its boycott against Kraft Foods for being a sponsor of the 2006 Gay Games in Chicago. The photographs, which were used without permission, were owned by and retrieved from ChrisGeary.com. Equality Mississippi encouraged ChrisGeary.com to file suit against the AFA and offered to support the suit.[89] As of March 2009[update], the images were still on AFA's web site.[90]
The American Family Association has objected to having their comments on homosexuality described as homophobia and akin to racism or sexism, saying that their beliefs are based in religion.[91]
Former AFA California leader Scott Lively[92][18] is a co-author of The Pink Swastika which claims that many leaders in the German Nazi regime, including Hitler himself, were gay. He has since co-founded Watchmen on the Walls.
In May 2010, Bryan Fischer, the AFA's director of Issue Analysis for Government and Public Policy,[93] wrote a blog post on the AFA website[94] detailing allegations that Adolf Hitler was a homosexual, and concluding that gay people in the military caused the Holocaust: "Nazi Germany became the horror that it was because it rejected both Christianity and its clear teaching about human sexuality. These are mistakes no sane culture should ever make again."[94]
In June 2008, AFA's news website, OneNewsNow – which had begun replacing all instances of "gay" with "homosexual" in re-posted Associated Press articles[95] – changed an AP profile of Olympic sprinter Tyson Gay, rendering his name as "Tyson Homosexual".[96][97][98] OneNewsNow similarly altered the name of basketball player Rudy Gay, naming him "Rudy Homosexual".[99][100] The gay rights website GoodAsYou.org, which "has long chronicled the AFA's practice of changing AP copy to suit its conservative agenda", spotted the errors. Tyson Gay was upset with the mistake.[101][102]
we've clearly moved into "dead horse" territory regarding whether or not the American Family Association is disseminating hatred and bigotry in their speech. I guess if one agrees with them, it's just "free speech" and "the bible agrees with me", and if one is standing up for equality and nondiscrimination for gays and lesbians, this group is clearly in the hate and bigotry business. And never the twain shall meet.........
I'm noticing that Governor Perry seems to have stepped off of something of a cliff with this "prayer" extravaganza....he only has one governor who's joined him in his efforts, and it sounds like that one is kind of trying to back out of it. It's possible that Governor Perry exists in a bubble of people who believe just as he does and as the American Family Association does, and has kind of miscalculated the ability of the majority of Americans to not accept this kind of stuff from an elected official in his offical capacity as the governor of a state. It may play well in the bible belt of Texas, but since he was most likely planning it as a big boost toward his ambitions toward a national career, possibly a BIG mistake.
We shall see, I guess.
drowning in your rhetoric here LC, though that was your desired effect...point being maybe some of those nasty Christians praying with Rick Perry believe that homosexuality is, sharp intake of breath, a sin... if them saying that outloud is "lies, hatred and bigotry" then free speech in this country is lying prone with the bootheel of an intolerant left atop its throat...You can spin as much as you want to spin, its a matter of opinion, beliefs, etc..
Yikes, I just looked AFA up. Ugly stuff. Homophobia and bigotry will die eventually. I am really looking forward to the cessation of the so-called "culture war". That's a poisonous term. They certainly remind me of how glad I am to live in a secular, pluralistic society.
From the website:
PHILOSOPHICAL STATEMENT
The American Family Association believes that God has communicated absolute truth to mankind, and that all people are subject to the authority of God’s Word at all times. Therefore AFA believes that a culture based on biblical truth best serves the well-being of our nation and our families, in accordance with the vision of our founding documents; and that personal transformation through the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the greatest agent of biblical change in any culture.
PHILOSOPHICAL STATEMENT
The American Family Association believes that God has communicated absolute truth to mankind, and that all people are subject to the authority of God’s Word at all times. Therefore AFA believes that a culture based on biblical truth best serves the well-being of our nation and our families, in accordance with the vision of our founding documents; and that personal transformation through the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the greatest agent of biblical change in any culture.
Really? Really? You feel threatened or initmadated by this statement? Loosechickens, point from my above post - you disagree with these people and feel that your way is the only right way - as do they. This is America, all points of view are welcome. The SPLC has on its website a "crosshairs" as a cursor - Do you not think that the left does damage to good people when they lump everyone in the same wagon? Good causes are harmed by the bigotry of the left. The method of "drown them in rhetoric, shout em down" is another form of thuggery used by the left. I can't believe that a group of Christians praying for this country upsets you so.
The devil is in the details. It really comes down to what exactly you are praying for - vague platitudes like "praying for your country" sound ok (although personally large groups of people mixing religion and nationalism gives me the willies), but it's when you get down to the specifics that it can get ugly.
While AFA's philosophical statement sounds ok, rooting through their website they present an agenda I find very distasteful and overwhelmingly and actively anti homosexual. Regardless of Perry's motives, I think he picked a poor sponsor.
BTW, using terms like "left" lumps everyone in the same wagon, and does damage to good people.
Guessing your figure of $89M was Mr. Buffett's INCOME last year. Your previous thread gave Mr. Dees SALARY of $809 which is why I responded with Mr. Buffett's SALARY. Shoot, even I have a salary which makes up only a portion of my income. We just need to be comparing apples to apples here.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Warren Buffett posts his personal tax returns every year. Morris Dees, as far as I have found, does not. As the head of an organization that brings in tens of millions of dollars per year I would argue that Mr. Dees is absolutely entitled to a salary and benefits commensurate with someone in the same position at a for profit company. I do not know how much Mr. Dees makes (aka, his INCOME) in a year. I do not know who pays his health insurance premiums or what kind of house he lives in or what kind of car he drives. If we are to believe his income is truly limited to $809 then Mr. Dees is going to have a hard time making it in a box under a bridge. He doesn't appear to be struggling that hard. He was keynote speaker at an event in my area last year (I did not attend). Tickets for the luncheon were $140 and up. Mr. Dees, along with his entourage, arrived by private jet and was taken to and from the event at the s****iest hotel in the area in a limo. I don't think for a minute that Mr. Dees paid for all of that out of his own pocket. I would guess the plane ride and some of the other perks were "donations". Heck, just the fee to LAND his plane here was more than his $809 annual salary.
You guys are reading me wrong or I'm saying it wrong. I am NOT criticizing Mr. Dees or the SPLC. I think they do a lot of good work and I'm glad someone is there to take on these hate groups. The SPLC has a very strong record and Mr. Dees is a very charismatic leader. All I'm saying is lets call a spade a spade. It is incredibly naive to cling to a belief that the SPLC is strictly an altruistic cause. I would not expect the lawyers there, including Morris Dees, to work for "peanuts". There are plenty of perfectly legal ways to support high income lifestyles using a non-profit corporate structure. What's disingenuous to me is the tendency by some to criticize the CEO lifestyle in one thread and then ignore the exact same perks granted to the leader of what is seen (by some) as a charitable organization in another thread. The CO2 being emitted by Mr. Dees jet is the same greenhouse gas emitted from any other CEO's jet.Quote:
Originally Posted by loosechickens
Just when I thought I had heard it all - now Rick Perry is telling America that he is a prophet?? Is this a case of good cop/bad cop? He is really making the rest of the GOP look smart. Perry just stop it, you are making Texans look like a bunch of morons. >:(
Governor Rick Perry appeared on the Fox News network for an interview with Neil Cavuto. Cavuto made the somewhat dubious statement that Perry is "very popular outside your state, still popular but not nearly as popular within your state."
Asked why Texas wasn't exactly in love with him, Perry said "I say that a prophet is generally not loved in their hometown. That's both Biblical and practical."
It's not that conservatives don't like Perry because he tried to force innocent sixth-grade girls to be given the "slut shot" anti-STD vaccine Gardasil, or to impose a billions-of-dollars boondoggle of a highway/rail/hoverboat/flying car transportation system throughout some of the emptier parts of the state.
And it's not that moderates don't like him because he wants to give carte blanche to polluters and slash the state's education system to shreds.
It's because neither group recognizes the Prophet-like genius of Rick Perry.
Peace
That is a statement that is used frequently when someone is not received well or thought of well in their home state/country. He is NOT calling himself a prophet. Again, half-truths and twisted mis-quotes do not enhance anyone's clarity. Not defending some of his bad actions at TX Gov. I am just tired of twisted, misconstrued information on all sides of the equation. No mas, from now on I am the truthmeister (or meistress).
Where's Lucian when you need him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigzagman
Catlady - As an educator in Texas, I find it amazing that you continue to support this guy who has publicly and proudly destroyed the education system (already pretty sad) in this state. Exactly what do you like about him? That he an Aggie? Is that all it takes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
Peace
Yeah, its just an expression. I wouldn't make too much of it outside a humorous anecdote considering his wannabe massive prayer rally.
hum, I wonder if gay people sit around obsessing about the sex lives of AFA members? Where's that website?
Not by the statement, but by the manner in which it's moved into action. I have a strong gratitude for religious freedom in this country, which means AFA members deserve to be protected from government prosecution for their private beliefs and to enjoy the freedom to worship, as distinct from their public actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
However, I also have a dedication to making sure that the biases which are evident in their online statements - the political actions and attempts to put their religious beliefs into policy and law - are stopped.
For instance, the headline of an article troubles me:
"Homosexual adoptions victimize children"
It's harmful, and inaccurate. There are real-world consequences of this kind of mean-spirited article. I wonder, if this organization is so Christian, where is the call for understanding and dialogue (obviously my bias about what it means to be a Christian)? AFA is free to believe what they will about Gay parents, and the moment they move to enact this bias into policy, or attempt to influence our democracy from the basis of this bias, that is concerning. I do find some of the writings on the website as hateful, which is sad.
We are not a Christian nation as AFA states, we are a secular, pluralistic society. Ultra conservative Christian organizations hit the same nerve in me as any other ultra conservative religious group does - what AFA publicly promotes is the same hate speech that Al Qaeda promotes. I have Muslim family, and I support their right to worship with as much vigor as I do Christians, Jews, and so forth. I also stand against violence in speech and action assigned to any religious or political group, and the ugliness of the public presentation of AFA deeply concerns me.
Here's an example of the kind of public behaviors by public employees that are fed by misleading information about Gay people. What the staff person said and did is unconscionable. His private views are protected; his public actions are not. I'm concerned that the anti-gay actions advocated by AFA and other activist religious organizations seed this type of highly regrettable discrimination :
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/06/1...f-public-pool/
Ziggy, you insult me and I'm sure you don't have that short of a memory...I do not like Perry, how many times to say it? I am now - Catwoman defender of the truth, whether it hurts my side and helps your side or vice versa. Ricky did not call himself a prophet, he used an analogy, c'mon.... Also, apparently, I need to be Catwoman, bull#$%# sifter...
Again, my position will continue to be - ABO - Anybody but Obama - if Rick Perry is his opposition, I said I would hold my nose and vote for him.
Aggies do have an Honor Code ya know. That. Is. All.
Hopefully you won't have to hold your nose! I hope none of us have to do that. I am sorry you're not an Obama supporter - I've benefitted from his policy actions, and believe the country as a whole has too. I don't like everything that's happened, but I do believe we're on the right path... and of course, I pray that everyone in this country lives in a community they love, in a home they can afford, with adequate food, water, health care, schooling, family and love. We're all pretty much of the same basic human needs after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
Blessings! I hope your day ROCKS!!!
You know I love ya!! I fear that too many people think just like you. I saw that in Texas just this election cycle. Instead of voting for the best person they voted a straight GOP ticket because they just could not force themselves to vote for the party of the "socialist". We had a opportunity to really have a honest and true leader instead the "conservatives" just could not force themselves to think in terms of issues - it just wouldn't be cool. Instead we got a GOP super-majority in the state and it will cost all of the citizens of Texas because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
At some point in my life I hope the South can get over their bigotry, racism, and redneck-ism. I have had to stomach it all of my life and it gets very tiring.
Proud of Texas - Ashamed of Rick Perry!
Peace
"drowning in your rhetoric here LC, though that was your desired effect...point being maybe some of those nasty Christians praying with Rick Perry believe that homosexuality is, sharp intake of breath, a sin... if them saying that outloud is "lies, hatred and bigotry" then free speech in this country is lying prone with the bootheel of an intolerant left atop its throat...You can spin as much as you want to spin, its a matter of opinion, beliefs, etc.. "
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catwoman, RedFox and others have said what I would say, but even better, so I won't bother to say all I could say. Of COURSE the American Family Association and the people who you are calling "nasty Christians" have very right to believe as they like. If they believe that homosexuality is sinful, and they feel those tendencies in themselves, they are free to "pray the gay away" from themselves, and do whatever feels necessary to make sure that they do not "fall into sin", by remaining celibate, or whatever suits their fancy.
I defend every person's right to have the religious beliefs they have and to live their own lives in accordance with those beliefs.
However, America is not and never has been a "Christian Nation", but is a secular, pluralistic society made up of citizens of many religions, none at all, as well as the many variations of Christian belief.
Where it comes to the American Family Association and other organizations similar to them is their efforts to impose THEIR religious beliefs on others, try to get laws passed that will affect or control those citizens who are not of their religious belief and do not share their outlook. And to try to do so by spreading demonstrable falsehoods about the people they feel are "sinful", and trying to control their lives.
When gay and lesbian organizations attempt to prevent Christian men and women from getting married, when they try to get laws passed to infringe on their rights, when they spread lies about them, and try to prevent them from enjoying the equality with every other citizen in this country, then I will speak out against any such organization. But, as Peggy said, I don't see gays and lesbians sitting around obsessing about the sex lives of fundamentalist Christian people, so it would seem reasonable for such Christian people to keep their noses out of the bedrooms and away from the civil rights of gays and lesbians.
It is FINE to think being gay is sinful if you want. It's fine to absolutely think that getting an abortion is wrong. And in such cases, I would not only support, but encourage one of those religious believers to fight against their own "gayness" if they find themselves in that situation, and to refuse to get an abortion if they find themselves in an unwanted pregnancy. that is, after all, what choice means.
Where the difficulties come is the trying to take choices away from others, to try to make THEM comply with YOUR religious beliefs by trying to pass laws based on those religious beliefs that affect others than just those who believe as you do. That's where the rubber hits the road......
Gregg......I totally agree, and whether it is a nonprofit corporation, or a profitmaking one, there is nothing wrong with the leaders of such organizations being paid excellent salaries (although I would question whether any human being at all is worth hundreds of millions of dollar per year in salary, especially if the ordinary workers make peanuts).
I don't remember anyone saying that the SPLC is just a completely "altruistic" organization....heck, even my cousin, a Lutheran minister in a large city for a number of years made an excellent living doing it, although his motivations in going into the field were certainly altruistic, and perhaps Mr. Dees' were as well. I'm not able to judge. And if he's made a fine living doing good, then great.
As the Quakers used to say....."there's no sin in doing well by doing good".......
I am pleased that there is an organization that tracks these hate groups, tries to prevent some of their hatred activities by taking them to court when they break laws, discriminate, etc., and getting money judgement from them. It's been an inspired, assymetric tactic.
You don't have any complaints from me about what you're saying.....I agree, pretty much with what you're saying.
From Juanita Jean's Beauty Shop......
Peace
The national media is on this like green on grass.… in December of 2000, when Perry was about to take over the governorship from president-elect Bush, he said something that could come back to haunt him. “Certainly, you are not going to see a great philosophical difference between Rick Perry and George Bush,” he said. “We share the same type of philosophy.”http://juanitajean.com/wp-content/up..._4514743_n.jpg
And a little reminder from Molly and Virginia Mary –
Move then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigzagman