UL i am glad that you have a good relationship with your sister who is a rational adult. She can validate your childhood experinces so you know that you are not crazy.
Printable View
UL i am glad that you have a good relationship with your sister who is a rational adult. She can validate your childhood experinces so you know that you are not crazy.
Thanks. And yup! She is a good one. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
Why is it not ok? This is a formative influence on your personality. If you want a long term relationship with this woman, she is going to have to be able to really understand you.
i think your sister was taking a big risk hiding the house from her husband. But then, I'm a "throw all the crazy out upfront" person.
It is not okay, because my sis would prefer to keep the hoard hidden. It is shameful for her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
She also just would not want to subject another person to such a disgusting situation, even if just for a moment.
As for T, I wanted her to see this because I have a zero clutter policy. And for a good reason.
UA - did you talk to T about how she felt after seeing your parent's place?
Also, I totally get why you would have a zero clutter policy. But doesn't that take things to the other extreme? Would you ever consider compromising a little and seeing if you can learn to be comfortable with a more balanced approach? The middle path, as the Buddha says? You'll never be like your mom or dad, and you don't have to keep such a rigid hold on yourself to prevent it from happening. It's not gonna happen. You're not them.
I asked her about how she felt about it. She just said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
"It smells so bad of cat pee."
And...
"It makes me want to clean out my basement."
But I don't think it had the impact that I had hoped.
I actually think my path is the middle path. I have a car, a bicycle, a bunch of fishing gear (pole, wader, boots, tackle box, etc.), plenty of clothes for most any occasion, a coffee table, a laptop, a crock pot, and so on.
My apartment has a dishwasher, W/D, a fridge, HVAC, full bath, stove, and so forth.
And I have plenty of silverware and cooking utensils and bowls, etc. now too.
I am getting a used kitchen table that sits four people. Yet I will still have less than two hundred possessions.
So I feel like I am on the middle path. I mean, why have stuff you don't use or like?
Someone on a middle path likely wouldn't be quite so compelled to continually count the number of items he/she owns. :DQuote:
So I feel like I am on the middle path
Would you say the same thing of counting calories? Or of the dollars and cents that come in and out of your life?Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
Yes.
At some point you develop healthy eating habits, reach a stable weight that works for you, and stop counting calories. - it's enough to feel healthy and know that your clothes are comfortable.
at some point you become comfortable with your lifestyle and spending habits see that you are living within your means and making progress toward your goals, and don't need to write down every penny, you are ok with just knowing you spent the $20 in your wallet on spontaneous odds and ends you stuck it in there to cover. And if you actually dropped 7 cents while you were on the tilt a whirl, it doesn't matter.
i'm going to get better, and then I'm going to throw away the twist ties without even noticing.
This might work for some people. But having a spreadsheet with all my stuff in it, that I update once in a while when I toss or acquire something works for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Some people might need to count calories for life, be super careful about what they eat, and weigh themselves often. Remember, only about 3% of people who were every 50lbs.+ overweight will ever lose the weight and keep it off for 5+ years. They often flake out on their good habits.
My spreadsheet of possessions has helped me keep my good habits!
Um... maybe that would work for some folks. But for others, they might need to keep using their Mint account or their YMOYL graph on the wall/little note book of expenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I do hope you get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
The only way I have been able to keep my weight off is to weigh daily and count calories, etc. As soon as i stop doing that I get fat. So I did that a few times and no more. Some might think it is excessive but it works for me. So counting I do not do but it works for UL. WE are all a little crazy in our own ways:)) I am glad you took your GF to see it because it has helped to shape who you are.
I suppose it works for you. My perspective from what you have shared here is that you are just as attached to things as your hoarder family, albeit from different angles. For a hoarder, its having such an excess that things get in the way of people. For you, it seems you have removed so many things from your life its getting in the way of people. Different sides of the same coin. I've heard all kinds of challenges in reducing what you own, even giving away your kayak. I think what folks mean about a middle path is enjoying the material things in life that support your goals. Not obsessing over them, or endlessly counting/cataloging them, but allowing them to fade into the background. Because things aren't that important.Quote:
But having a spreadsheet with all my stuff in it, t
As you say to Zoe Girl, you decide, but just throwing it out there for consideration.
So far so good!Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
I dunno about that. I am not attached to much that I own.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
I dispute this. Here is why:Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
Yesterday evening my significant other came over. We had a little fish fry and walked my dog through a nearby park. Then we enjoyed a couple slices of watermelon. If she had not come over I would have probably gone to an atheist meeting I usually attend every other Monday.
Tonight my friend Jeff comes over. We are going cycling and then grabbing some Indian food. We do this once per month. If he was not coming over I would have gone to a Recovering From Religion support group I attend once a month to just be there as people make their way to atheism.
Tomorrow I attend my voluntary simplicity class with a dozen other folks who are interested in simplifying their lives. I am facilitating the class. I have facilitated two of these classes before. I am still in contact with many of those folks. I also took this class before then. I still hang out with folks from that class at least once a month.
Thursday and Friday I will probably just chill out with Harlan.
Saturday I am going to an atheist meditation event. I will also probably spend time with my significant other.
Sunday I am taking a walk at a park with a minimalist friend of mine who came to some life-altering realizations recently and wants my opinion of the situation. Our minimalist meeting is not for another couple weeks and she does not want to wait.
As you can see, I am very social. On June 18th I host an atheist canoeing trip. I host three or four of these each summer.
These are just a handful of examples. So no need to worry about me being anti-social or some such. De-stuffing my life has given me more space to be social!
I have reduced what I own to what I need and some of what I really like. And I am not giving away my canoe. I am selling it. I don't have a place to store it around here, certainly not at my apartment. And the long drives to get it and then go to the lake suck much of the fun out of fishing. I hate driving! This and other costs were really squeezing me. So in place of fishing I have gotten more into cycle commuting and I found a way to cycle to one of my favorite fishing spots, where I will fish from the bank.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
I do enjoy the material things in life that support my goals. I have fished like a wild man for the past 4 years. I have been cycling to work and all over the place since I moved to my new place. I use the W/D and the dishwasher at my apartment. I use the AC! hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
Endlessly counting? LOL
I add or subtract something to my spreadsheet like once or twice a month, maybe.
Stuff doesn't fade into the background if:
1. You just let it pile up. Then it closes in on you.
2. If all the stuff you have is the stuff you really like and use often. Then it is in the forefront of your favorite activities.
Bring up anything you like. Make suggestion if you want. I am open.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbgeek
The research on Compulsive Hoarding Disorder shows that people who suffer from this mental illness tend to attach emotionally to physical possessions rather than to people/relationships they have with people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
My parents are both clannish. They hide themselves away from most people, except a few folks in their little town. They are happier (or seemingly so) to spend time restocking their camper van with stuff from Wal-Mart or with going to some far-flung place to shop for some odd item or just churning their hoard in one way or another than they are to engage socially, in a genuine and deep way, with friends or even family.
Actually, I have deep and rich emotional relationships with people. But no, not very many people. I'm simply a strong introvert. People in quantity or duration exhaust me. But I would far rather spend the day on my porch with one good friend than doing anything that involves leaving home and getting a new stuff. I had a fantastic time at my daughter's wedding Saturday night, but I avoided most of the guests I didn't know (groom's side) and it took me until yesterday afternoon to recover enough to go to the feed store and have to speak to the guy who sells me feed.
i do enjoy spending time with my stuff when I am recovering from people though. The stuff is so quiet and still and demands so little of me. The stuff I have emotional connections to is related to people though. I am emotionally connected to the stuff because it triggers a sense of connection or cascade of thoughts or memories related to a person.
Example - my great grandfather died when I was ten. I remember him only as an old man who hugged me and made me laugh and told me stories. But I have his scythe. And I love using it, because it makes me think of him as a young man on his farm and the stories I heard.
This is all very intriguing to me. :)
I am also an introvert. Lots of social interaction will exhaust me as well. I then like to go do something alone -- fish, a bike ride, or read a book. Those are examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
You say you like to spend time with your stuff to recoup from being with people. This is what I'd like you to illustrate more for me. Most introverts need time alone to recover from socializing. Why would you recovery be more about having than doing or being?
I can only really speak for myself, but stuff does not seem to trigger a sense of connection.
Brian Johnson, former singer for AC/DC is a major car collector. I saw a show he hosted about cars. He got into an old, old car that was the same model as his first car. He got this faraway eyed look on his face and said: "It is all coming back to me now... me mates from school, Billy and Sam..."
A place can trigger memories for me, or at least emotions. And activities certainly can.
At the moment I am getting into joyriding on my bike. When I see my bike at home I think: "I'd like to pedal down to the river and ride the path."
But the bike is merely a conduit. It is essential but I have no real emotion for it.
For me I see the map as mostly insignificant in comparison to the territory.
I don't really want to "do" much when I'm tired. So maybe someone would watch a movie, but that's more motion and talking, and people-y stuff.
I washed all the table cloths and folded them up and washed the mugs from brunch and thought about the people who made them and the people who used them, and ordered them pleasingly in my cabinet, arranged all the not-yet-opened wedding gifts attractively, set the flowers out around the house, and washed the mason jars and lined them back up in the cabinet, and it all gave me a sense of order and comfort and serenity. Spending time with stuff.
another day I might turn out the yarn cabinet and sort skeins and daydream about projects, and then choose something, settle the rest back, and sit on the porch and knit.
i like to rearrange the dolls and knick knacks when I dust, to change out seasonal decorations, to have things around me I find interesting and attractive. I don't like bare walls and empty spaces.
i would also like to read a book, sometimes when I don't have a new book though, I enjoy browsing through old favorites to choose something. I like the tactile sensations of a real book. I love being in the library surrounded by books too, but then, libraries require leaving home, and are so often occupied by people.....
and that car thing, that's exactly it. The thing triggers the memory so clearly.
When you are tired, like really tired, from socializing, do you ever just take a nap?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Why do you suppose you don't like bare walls or empty spaces?
Do you feel this way outdoors too?
The book thing is interesting. I am a librarian by trade. And I knew lots of folks in library school that loved real books -- not Nooks or whatever. But me though, the book is just a conduit for a story. I like real books because I can focus on them better. But when I am done with the book I have virtually no interest in it anymore.
What makes you want to keep a book?
Sometimes I nap, but often I really just want quiet and stillness while my brain conciously processes things. Meditation is too much quiet and still ness - so "puttering" with stuff works well.
Outdoors is FULL of stuff! Trees and rocks, and water and plants and even bugs and birds. I love outside stuff too! Weeding is just as good as puttering, but physically more tiring.
i like to re read stories, like remembering experiences or revisiting a favorite place or activity (ever want to ride the same trail again?). And I am very sensory, I love the tactile properties of books.
For a moment, just as a thought exercise, tell me... Do you think hoarding makes you happier?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Forget about your hubby's issue with it. Forget about your kids' issue with it. Forget about society's, social workers' psychologists' problems with it.
If you could hoard to your heart's content with all the storage bins, barns, garages, closets, and extra-rooms would you do it?
This is a really interesting perspective. I feel the complete opposite - extra stuff makes me feel suffocated and stressed out. The stuff feels heavy and demanding to me; demanding of time, mental and physical energy, physical and visual space so that the room feels like it's closing in on me, etc... When I'm faced with extra stuff I feel as if I'm carrying it physically and emotionally. And the burden feels too heavy and draining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I'm an ENFP which is the most introverted of the extroverts and I do have a need for alone time and usually what makes me happy is gardening or being with my pets, listing to a relaxing tape, etc. I find those experiences refreshing and soothing in the way that you describe being with your things.
Amen!Quote:
Originally Posted by Geila
It might be some kind of nesting impulse. Most men probably wouldn't get it :). But really I suspect it may be a bit of a feminine trait. It's a desire for one's house (or apartment or condo or whatever) to be solace and hiding from what seems a very dangerous and uncertain world (that one must otherwise interact with and sometimes a great deal). And so there is an impulse for it to be nice and filled with nice comforting things.
Now I also have an impulse not to have things, but that is mostly for one reason: because it's easier to move that way and ugh I'm always thinking about moving all the time. So these impulses might counterbalance a lot.
I like outside but that's not always available, work hours too long on workdays, can just walk around the block but have to drive to really get any where more interesting to walk etc..
UA, I think I would reach a point where I said "enough". It would just be well outside of normal. Right now my "stuff" problem (my personal stuff problem, not my social/family stuff problem) is lack of space - either appropriate storage space or the ability to use the space I have. Dh likes his space to be full of air. (We've had this conversation - me: "but you aren't using this half of the shelf." Him: "I'm using it to store air. You like to be surrounded by things, I like to be surrounded by air.")
for example, dh doesn't mind if I put one doll and two pillows on the guest bed when we do not have a guest. I would prefer 5 pillows of different sizes, three dolls, and a quilt folded at the foot with a stuffed animal on it. Then I would sit cross legged in the middle with papers and books and magazines spread around me and write lesson plans. Also I would need colored pencils. And index cards, and paper clips, and some examples, and I would need to be able to see all of these things. And I would need to leave them there when I left and not have anybody clean them up so that I could pick up my train of thought where I left off when I came back - a day, or a week, or a month, or six months later.
you know Sherlock Holmes' "mind palace"? I build mine around me.
Right now I am choosing to sit not at the nice clean dining table on the nice clean porch, but in the middle of the unmade bed in the messiest room of the house, surrounded by baskets of laundry. It feels cozy.
I like my space at home, my apartment, to be a space of solace too. Absolutely! That is why I like it uncluttered and have a zero clutter policy. hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
The things I do have are comforting. I like lounging. haha
Lounging around is something I often do at home, in solace, with my pup. Just kick back on a bean bag chair, stare into space, and relax.
But I am indeed interested in this "nesting" impulse. I have heard numerous women talk about it.
ANM, do you ever think of moving to a different part of the country?
You are joking or being sincere? The issue is that you don't have room for your stuff? I can't tell if you are jerking my chain...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Question: Describe to me your "enough" and what sort of facilities you'd need to house your enough-stuff. I am intrigued.
Maddening. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Not familiar...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I don't know how you do it. I really don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
The mind palace thing would probably be simpler if you googled it. Smithsonian had a good article.
i'm being sincere. For example, I have reached the point where there are very few additional books I wish to own, and sometimes I'm ready to let go of them, so if I had to guess, three more 6 ft tall 3 foot wide bookshelves, and I'd never have another book in a pile. For clothes I would need all of our closet and probably one of the guest room closets - everything would be easy to see and use. Sewing/fiber arts would need a good sized bedroom, although, if I had the space to leave the projects out, I would work on them more often, use up more supplies, and then need less space. when my spinning wheel was actually set up on the porch all summer with bags of alpaca, I made a whole bunch of yarn, because I could just spin for 15 minutes. But dh was annoyed because there was always fuzz everywhere.
once dh told me I could have as many chickens as I wanted. I built extra coops, ordered a bunch of chicks, and I now know, 100 chickens is too many. 45 is about right. I tore down the extra coops and turned the space into goat stalls. If I ever find out how many goats is too many, maybe I'll let you know. But I'm pretty sure milking 6 at a time is plenty! Maybe I could handle 8, but not for too long.
and when I pack stuff neatly away the way dh likes it, I tend to acquire more stuff, but when I have it out where I can see and touch it all the time, I have less interest in more stuff. I think part of the reason the doll collection has gotten so much larger the last year is because dh took the shelf down and the dolls got mostly packed away for months, and my hoarder brain thought I didn't have very many.
so, if I could have my space full of stuff and my stuff out on surfaces/shelves in my space, I would probably reach equillibrium. I would not keep wanting "another room" nor would I build a Collier (sp?) maze. I'm a sentimental/utilitarian/anti waste hoarder who likes living in a bower. (Google also bower bird)
Do you think that if you got all the above space that it would actually be enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I just don't know how you find the time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Could you catch yourself at the impulse and the remind yourself: "Wait, I do have enough." ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I have to keep most things out where I can see them too. Just sayin'.
What is stopping you from simply building a big pole barn on your land and rooming it off for all that stuff you said you need more space for?
Chicken Lady, it is fascinating to hear you objectively analyze your brain and your surroundings!
I am one of the ones who feels smothered by piles of stuff that simply sit around dong mothng. I had a job at a large public library system where we processed 100,000 books and dvds and music cds etc each year. It was important to keep the assembly line moving to get these purchased materials out on shelves at all of the library locations.
We had hundreds of linear feet on shelves and book trucks in our processing department. I found empty book trucks pleasing, it means we had moved enough product out of our department to free up space, and it also meant we had room to take on a special project. The special projects of many linear feet of materials were dumped in my department periodically.
But I was a bear about accepting more than one special project at a time. The hoarders, and there are many of them in old library systems, apparently loved to see shelves piled high to the ceiling with books and etc even though those materials were not accessible to anyone. Ridiculous. I felt smothered and as through I was sinking underwater when huge collextins of crap sat around.
My department had been in the same place since 1912. We moved out once in the 1990's to renovate the space. My boss and colleagues made sympathetic noises about how much stuff we would have to clean out. i said "no problem! We dont have "stuff" because I dont allow it. We have no hidey holes, no objects that havent been touched for decades, none of that chit, Ive been cleaning cuboards and nooks for years up to now."
You've heard of large libraries that have backlogs measured in years or decades? The U of Illinois was notorious for that, their backlg of unprocessed materials was in the hundreds of ousands of volumes. Yeah, I would have comitted suicide if I had to work there with that hulking, non-moving backlg of books.
Also, please note that I am a recovering hoarder. The recovering part is important. There was a time when the wedding would have overloaded me completely, but now, I can recognize that it is ok to throw away the pieces of fishing line that held the paper lanterns up (waste) keep only the two tiny name flowers from dh and my places, not the styrofoam garden display all the flowers were on at the start of the reception, and not the left behind flowers from other people (sentiment) and only enough table cloths to actually cover the folding tables I currently own, not all of them in case some wear out or get stained (utilitarian)
I got respect for you because of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
UA, what is stopping me is dh. and the expense.
I built a polebarn once with a guy during a summer. If I can do it, most anyone can. I am not handy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
But I get it. Cost is something that makes me recoil even for something I really want, like a vacation in South Africa.
OH, and the "wait, do I have enough?" That is one of the exercises that I use. But often the answer is "I don't know."
to use mustard as an example: we use a lot of mustard. So I go to the store, mustard is not on the list, but it is on sale. I think "how soon until we need mustard - i don't know. Better get one. It's a really good sale. Better get two." Then I come home and while randomly stuffing things into the pantry closet in the basement, I realize the sale was also on last week and I did the same thing. Apples live in a bowl on the counter. I never buy too many apples.
I used to buy too much at the grocery store too! I use a list regularly now. I also live a 5 minute walk from the grocery. These two things helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
But something else I have done is made a rule where I never buy more than two of anything.
Question: You ask yourself the enough question. This seems like a good idea. What about this? You ask yourself and admit you don't know. Could you turn that over to someone you trust? They answer it for you and you abide by their answer?
That really only works (and sometimes only kind of) if I know how many I have and it's a utilitarian thing. For example - I have two twin beds, so I ask my mom "six sets of twin sheets is plenty, right? Even if somebody is sick, I'm not going to need more than six sets of sheets." And then my mom says "I can't imagine that you would! I mean, if they're sick, you're going to put them in the wash right away. You could probably get by with 4". And then I keep the 6, but I don't buy any more.
Except, I'm at the store and I see a great set of twin sheets for a great price and I think " those sheets are going to wear out. And then I will need new ones. And they won't be this cheap. And these are so pretty!" And I buy them.
but you know those canning jars that pasta sauce comes in that you can reuse? Some years I make pasta sauce, and some years I don't. And those jars are the right size. So what would happen, is the years I didn't make sauce, I would save all the empty jars I bought. But I finally realized, I am only going to use them for sauce. Dh and I are not going to eat more than 24 jars of sauce in a year. I have 24 jars. So I don't save them any more. That is actually a big deal.
MMmmm... pasta. Sorry. Distracted! ;)
No, I can see the rationale. I just don't feel it.
Iris lilies, I went back to read your "more" post. See, I would love that pile of books and I would love getting it out to people, and I would be so happy you would have to come find me and take a book out of my hands and tell me "go home". Or I would get lost in my job and become skeletal lay thin and fall asleep in my chair and my family would send the police to look for me.
Dh always has to physically stop me if I have a mountain of "treasure" to sort. Processing the plaster molds a few at a time was an amazing feat of self control made possible only by the limited drying space.
This thread has been fascinating for me. I credit that with Chicken Lady being so candid.
I agree. It's a sign of your level of recovery, chicken lady, that you can tell us so much about your thought processes.
I'm learning a lot about my father, sister, and one of my brothers - all of whom like to collect lots of stuff. My other brother, mom, and I are the opposite.