Recovering hoarders?

CL: thanks for sharing, your thoughts are so interesting. DH Mom's was a great lady but a hoarder. He loves living in a neat, clean home however, he needs zones where he can keep crap and be a mess. I don't understand it. It feels so much calmer/better to not be in chaos for me. I am an ENTJ. However, now that I have gotten older I need alone time. I never did when younger. The nesting instinct is wanting your personal space to feel good. so you decorate to make it feel that way. As I am aging I find I need less stuff to feel better. I also don't want to burden my kids with getting rid of a bunch of crap if I die. When I go into a model home it feels so good. One of the tricks they use is to have no small nik-naks. Only large items. This keeps it from feeling cluttered. So I am trying to replicate that although I do have some small stuff but it all fits into a small curio cabinet. I got rid of anything that didn't.

Thanks. It helps to talk about it and you guys have been really supportive. i also remember how much it helped when I came across a book that talked about the psychology behind hoarding and how my mind just kept going, yes, yes, yes. Having something to work with besides "just get rid of the stuff" was huge. So if I can help anybody else understand, I think that is great.

So many people are affected by this issue but lately it has become acceptable to talk about which is great. In the past many would hide it. I think you have been making great progress on your home. Although never a hoarder when I was younger I had a ton of stuff to dust etc and if someone would have suggested it was too much I would not have been happy:)) We all change when we are ready. Hugs:))

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

UA, I think I would reach a point where I said "enough". It would just be well outside of normal. Right now my "stuff" problem (my personal stuff problem, not my social/family stuff problem) is lack of space - either appropriate storage space or the ability to use the space I have.

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I was thinking, how is this different than greed?

Well, in looking up definitions of greed, one is "a strong desire to get more of something." Which I think all humans experience.

another qualifies that with "more than one needs" which again, in a strict definition of "need" encompasses pretty much everybody on this board.

i know I have everything I truly need right now, so to want anything at all would be greedy. And yet, I am greedily awaiting my siding delivery.

a third definition includes "more than one's share." So it is definitely greedy of me to want to fill more than half of the storage space in my home.

eventually, you reach a point where a person has more than they could possibly ever use (and one would argue enjoy, and yet, maybe just knowing they own that island they will never get around to visiting makes them happy)

i think desire becomes a problem (greed) when it takes away from others or consumes your life. And in that way it does play into hoarding and the aspect of it that is selfish (just as drug addiction and untreated depression are selfish - they hurt those around you.)

but it is it "greedy" to want to keep 700 rubber bands that were on their way to the landfill? I don't know. One could also argue that it is greedy to fill up a landfill with items that are still useful.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I was thinking, how is this different than greed?

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Since you value experiences over stuff, isn't that also greed? I know a late friend of mine, considered himself greedy as he gave away $100K a year for years. He said in his reveal interviews, that giving is actually the greediest thing one can do, as the feelings it gives you.

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Since you value experiences over stuff, isn't that also greed? I know a late friend of mine, considered himself greedy as he gave away $100K a year for years. He said in his reveal interviews, that giving is actually the greediest thing one can do, as the feelings it gives you.

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Yes, and I will argue that even greedier is giving away other people's money. The Lady Bountiful who sashays around my neighborhood giving stuff bought with other people's money has a pretty sweet deal.

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Since you value experiences over stuff, isn't that also greed?

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Excellent question! Do I have enough experiences? Is wanting more greed?

And to clarify, while I know that for most people experiences contribute more to happiness than buying shtuff (at least according to the research -- and Jane will probably dispute this). But I am not on the bandwagon enough to tell everyone and their brother to go out and spend mucho diniero on jet setting around the world and such.

I am a big advocate of restraint, in most scenarios.

But put a cold, perfectly ripe watermelon in front of me and you will see greed manifest!

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

I know a late friend of mine, considered himself greedy as he gave away $100K a year for years. He said in his reveal interviews, that giving is actually the greediest thing one can do, as the feelings it gives you.

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I would argue that this guy does not know what he is talking about. If you make that much money, I think you exploited the labor of others. Also: There is a difference, in most instances, between giving things away and simply refraining from taking them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Since you value experiences over stuff, isn't that also greed? I know a late friend of mine, considered himself greedy as he gave away $100K a year for years. He said in his reveal interviews, that giving is actually the greediest thing one can do, as the feelings it gives you.

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I hadn't thought about that. I always thought about greed in the context of material possessions, so I looked up greed in Wikipedia:

Greed (OE grǽdum) is an inordinate or insatiable longing, especially for wealth, status, and power.

As secular psychological concept, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs. The degree of inordinance is related to the inability to control the reformulation of "wants" once desired "needs" are eliminated. Erich Fromm described greed as "a bottomless pit which exhausts the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction." It is typically used to criticize those who seek excessive material wealth, although it may apply to the need to feel more excessively moral, social, or otherwise better than someone else.

The purpose for greed, and any actions associated with it, is possibly to deprive others of potential means (perhaps, of basic survival and comfort) or future opportunities accordingly, or to obstruct them therefrom,, thus insidious and tyrannical or otherwise having negative connotation. Alternately, the purpose could be defense or counteraction from such dangerous, potential negotiation in matters of questionable agreeability. A consequence of greedy activity may be inability to sustain any of the costs or burdens associated with that which has been or is being accumulated, leading to a backfire or destruction, whether of self or more generally. So, the level of "inordinance" of greed pertains to the amount of vanity, malice or burden associated with it.

So, given the new definition, I would say that hoarding is probably both inordinate and insatiable. (Like compulsive eating?). However, I do have mine under control to the point where it is no longer insatiable, so, the quote you pasted, would disqualify it from being greed by stating that there is a point of "enough".

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

Well, in looking up definitions of greed, one is "a strong desire to get more of something." Which I think all humans experience.

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I would agree. Few folks in the world have eliminated this type of desire.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

another qualifies that with "more than one needs" which again, in a strict definition of "need" encompasses pretty much everybody on this board.

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I would agree. I certainly have more than I need. Though I am intrigued about whether or not I am happier or healthier because of it.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

i know I have everything I truly need right now, so to want anything at all would be greedy. And yet, I am greedily awaiting my siding delivery.

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Do you examine this desire? Reflect on it? If so, tell me about it.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

a third definition includes "more than one's share." So it is definitely greedy of me to want to fill more than half of the storage space in my home.

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I would yet again agree. How many square feet is your home?

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

eventually, you reach a point where a person has more than they could possibly ever use (and one would argue enjoy, and yet, maybe just knowing they own that island they will never get around to visiting makes them happy)

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I personally know numerous people who own more than they could ever possibly use. Something about it feel tragic when I look upon them. I am still figuring out what to think and feel about that phenomenon though.

The idea of someone owning a private island that the will never get around to visiting makes them happy seems a bit far-fetched. I actually do know a couple who own a private island. They rarely get to visit. And when they do, it is to work on building up the resort they are developing there. They don't seem to be happy owning it and not really being there. They also don't seem to think being there would make them happy either. Perhaps happiness is largely and internal experience that is also internally derived (which is why I meditate -- which is very much internal and minimalistic).

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

i think desire becomes a problem (greed) when it takes away from others or consumes your life. And in that way it does play into hoarding and the aspect of it that is selfish (just as drug addiction and untreated depression are selfish - they hurt those around you.)

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True. I'd say yes, this is largely true.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

but it is it "greedy" to want to keep 700 rubber bands that were on their way to the landfill? I don't know. One could also argue that it is greedy to fill up a landfill with items that are still useful.

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Excellent question! Hmmmm... I'd say: "Are you really keeping them from going to the landfill or are you turning a little place in your house into a little piece of landfill?"

I would also ask if perhaps the greed was in the manufacture and/or acquisition of the rubber bands, not in the keeping vs. throwing away. And that acquisition is further complicated by how does one avoid them? Who is the real culprit in too many rubber bands being made in the first place, etc.?

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

So, given the new definition, I would say that hoarding is probably both inordinate and insatiable. (Like compulsive eating?). However, I do have mine under control to the point where it is no longer insatiable, so, the quote you pasted, would disqualify it from being greed by stating that there is a point of "enough".

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I agree.. just as a recovering alcoholic has learned to regulate satiety with regards to alcohol consumption (usually by abstaining)

As I am not living in a climate with year round hand to mouth nutrition and a temperature that would allow me to remain naked, I cannot abstain from stuff. Also, need my glasses to see well enough to find said imaginary nutrition.

i have not annalyzed my greed for siding. We are building an addition. It is wrapped in tyvec. We have ordered siding, it is coming, I want it, the thought of having it installed pleases me, the end.

it is not healthy for me to think too hard about rubber bands.

also trying to break myself of the habit of trying to figure out if other people's choices make them happy. It does not seem to benefit anyone.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

As I am not living in a climate with year round hand to mouth nutrition and a temperature that would allow me to remain naked, I cannot abstain from stuff. Also, need my glasses to see well enough to find said imaginary nutrition.

i have not annalyzed my greed for siding. We are building an addition. It is wrapped in tyvec. We have ordered siding, it is coming, I want it, the thought of having it installed pleases me, the end.

it is not healthy for me to think too hard about rubber bands.

also trying to break myself of the habit of trying to figure out if other people's choices make them happy. It does not seem to benefit anyone.

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When I mentioned abstention, I certainly didn't mean abstention is the always the antidote to greed!! Not at all. In fact, I adhere to the saying, "What you resist, persists" So, moderation in all things, but with substance abuse, that's not usually possible.

Plus, I still have a hard time categorizing hoarding as greedy.

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Originally Posted by catherine

When I mentioned abstention, I certainly didn't mean abstention is the always the antidote to greed!! Not at all. In fact, I adhere to the saying, "What you resist, persists" So, moderation in all things, but with substance abuse, that's not usually possible.

Plus, I still have a hard time categorizing hoarding as greedy.

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thats funny because my gut reaction is that hoarding is extremely greedy. But thats not a well reasoned opinion, it just is from the gut.

No, I just meant that that is one thing that is frustrating about hoarding. Abstention is not a viable option. and "stuff" is sadly ubiquitous.

i offer a though exercise UA should enjoy:

i do not want "disposable" plastic cups. I don't like to use them, I don't want them in my house, and I never want to buy another one as long as I live!

but I have them. In fact, we used them at the brunch. And I told everybody to toss them in the sink, and I washed them and put them back in the cupboard. Because the alternative is what? Throwing them "away"? There is no "away" and they can be reused and if they are thrown out, more cups will be bought, and more cups will be made, and more cups will be thrown away, and I could have done something to reduce this (see why I stopped thinking about rubber bands?)

i try to give them away, but your kids never want to sign up to bring the cups to the party when they know you will send used (and washed) cups of many kinds.

I brought the the bag from behind the bar home from the wedding to recycle the bottles (we had to carry out the trash). And I dumped it in the yard to hose everything off because it had to wait a week and because there were a few things in there other than bottles (not many) but this included seven plastic cups. And they can't be recycled. So I washed them. And now I have more plastic cups.

(side note - the three bags that were not bar bags I put in the trash without sorting - and it was hard!)

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

thats funny because my gut reaction is that hoarding is extremely greedy. But thats not a well reasoned opinion, it just is from the gut.

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I feel it is greedy too. I don't like to feel greed in myself. But I still do some greedy things from time to time. :(

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

No, I just meant that that is one thing that is frustrating about hoarding. Abstention is not a viable option. and "stuff" is sadly ubiquitous.

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It is especially difficult when your addiction is something you need anyway -- like food or some stuff.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

i offer a though exercise UA should enjoy:

i do not want "disposable" plastic cups. I don't like to use them, I don't want them in my house, and I never want to buy another one as long as I live!

but I have them. In fact, we used them at the brunch. And I told everybody to toss them in the sink, and I washed them and put them back in the cupboard. Because the alternative is what? Throwing them "away"? There is no "away" and they can be reused and if they are thrown out, more cups will be bought, and more cups will be made, and more cups will be thrown away, and I could have done something to reduce this (see why I stopped thinking about rubber bands?)

i try to give them away, but your kids never want to sign up to bring the cups to the party when they know you will send used (and washed) cups of many kinds.

I brought the the bag from behind the bar home from the wedding to recycle the bottles (we had to carry out the trash). And I dumped it in the yard to hose everything off because it had to wait a week and because there were a few things in there other than bottles (not many) but this included seven plastic cups. And they can't be recycled. So I washed them. And now I have more plastic cups.

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This seems like a mental prison.

Though I would disagree. There is an "away." But it is a matter of distance. I throw something away and it goes miles from me into a landfill. You keep something I would throw away, but it is away in a cupboard in your house. I prefer my away. I have seen landfills in real life many times. I don't want that crap in my apartment.

How did everyone react to you keeping the plastic cups and washing them?

I used to live near a landfill. I don't want that crap on my planet. Your definition of home is too small for me.

everyone thought it was a great idea. It was family. I was either being thrifty or environmentally responsible. I think your upbringing shapes your hoarding. Maybe if I was raised by people who focused on animal rescue I'd hoard cats.

it is a mental prison. THAT IS THE POINT. It's not a character flaw, it's not laziness or lack of willpower, it's not stubbornness, it's not greed. I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. But it's really hard to find the door out.

Those people on hoarders who are crying? They aren't brats throwing a fit. They are actually in pain. Someone is dragging them straight through the bars.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

I used to live near a landfill. I don't want that crap on my planet. Your definition of home is too small for me.

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I don't want it on my planet either. But then again, if you are worried about plastic cups on the planet -- why bring them into your house? Why build an addition to your house to house more? I am just being a prick. I am asking sincere questions.

I consider myself a planetary citizen too.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

everyone thought it was a great idea. It was family. I was either being thrifty or environmentally responsible. I think your upbringing shapes your hoarding. Maybe if I was raised by people who focused on animal rescue I'd hoard cats.

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Very intriguing thought...

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

it is a mental prison. THAT IS THE POINT. It's not a character flaw, it's not laziness or lack of willpower, it's not stubbornness, it's not greed. I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. But it's really hard to find the door out.

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I understand. It is frightening and heart-wrenching.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

Those people on hoarders who are crying? They aren't brats throwing a fit. They are actually in pain. Someone is dragging them straight through the bars.

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I know. This is what tipped me off that my mom was not entirely lazy or lacking willpower or just being stubborn. When my sis and I tried to dehoard just a few tiny spaces in her house and she went hysterically berserk I thought: "Hmmmm... something is going on here I don't yet understand."

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I feel it is greedy too. I don't like to feel greed in myself. But I still do some greedy things from time to time. :(

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I have nevr ever ever said that I dont do greedy things myself.

My life is kindofa greedfest. But at least I recognize it.

Animal hoarding is an example of altruistic behavior that can turn into greed pretty fast. No one "needs" 30 cats and it is greedy and selfish to think that only you ( the general you) can save them.

Actually, I have a problem anyway with the whole idea of somene who considers themselves a "saviour" of cats and dogs anyway.

The addition is to house experiences. Because when we had 8 people in my kitchen/dining area it was standing room only and nearly impossible to reach the coffee.

They are already on the planet. i bring them into my home because it's that or the trash. If you said "hey, could I have those for my atheist group picnic" I would give them to you, and feel a rush of those chemicals I can't remember that make you happy.

a small rush for helping you, a small rush for reducing the total number of cups that would get thrown out, and a huge rush for being free of the cups.

In CL's situation I would have gone to the theift stores, purchased glasses and cups there,used them and returned them. They wouldnt match but I doubt anyone would care about that. We have good thrift stores aeound here.

I use them to feed my addiction to dinnerware which is under control but always lurking in my head. As ya'll know I do flower show exhibits and table exhibits are part of that world. I got that rush CL talks about when I was able to go to my basement and put togehter a thematic display of dinnerware fitting the iris show theme, all obtained from Goodwill.

i recently bought a box full of melamine dishes cor $10 whoch is a lot of money, but melamine is easy to spray paint, so now I have a supply of dishes in interesting shapes that can be painted appropruate colors for flower show displays.

keep in mind I have NO PROBLEM throwing these away when the time comes that I move on to another hobby, or to clean off for more appropriate stuff.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

They are already on the planet. i bring them into my home because it's that or the trash.

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Does it not seem like by doing so you make your house the trash? That is my concern with keeping stuff.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

If you said "hey, could I have those for my atheist group picnic" I would give them to you, and feel a rush of those chemicals I can't remember that make you happy.

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What if I then told you I was going to throw the cups in the trash when I was done?

Or... what if after I had the picnic I then told you I threw the cups away? Would you feel absolved by that point or anguish?

i like the washing of non recyclable cups. that's not hoarding to me. that's responsible living on this planet. i recycle what i can, and then i wash the plastics that can't be and use them as my tupperware. i don't own hardly any actual tupperware - its all from the grocery. and it works just fine. :)

Oh, I know you are going to throw the cups away. But you were going to throw the cups away anyway. I stopped you from buying new cups to throw away.

it does not feel like my house is the trash, because they are not trash. They are clean and useful - my house is the "warehouse of potential."

iris lilies, I like that!

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Originally Posted by Tammy

i like the washing of non recyclable cups. that's not hoarding to me. that's responsible living on this planet. i recycle what i can, and then i wash the plastics that can't be and use them as my tupperware. i don't own hardly any actual tupperware - its all from the grocery. and it works just fine. :)

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What if you have 3,000 non-recycleable plastic cups you have saved?

But Tammy, what happens when you have enough "Tupperware" and something comes into your house in a plastic container?

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

"warehouse of potential."

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Isn't a landfill also this?

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

my house is the "warehouse of potential."

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I hate to keep drawing parallels with alcoholism but one of the common problems of people who love alcoholics is they get trapped in the alcoholic's "potential" which of course never comes to fruition. Alcoholics are often extremely bright, creative, loving, kind, etc. But hanging your hopes on their "potential" will make you miserable and ruin your life.

Couldn't the same be said of the potential of hoards?

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Originally Posted by catherine

I hate to keep drawing parallels with alcoholism but one of the common problems of people who love alcoholics is they get trapped in the alcoholic's "potential" which of course never comes to fruition. Alcoholics are often extremely bright, creative, loving, kind, etc. But hanging your hopes on their "potential" will make you miserable and ruin your life.

Couldn't the same be said of the potential of hoards?

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I suspect this happened to my dad. And he just said: "If you can't beat them, join them!"

I simply WILL NOT ever do that.

But... there are alcoholics who kick, stay sober, and live up to much of their potential.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

But... there are alcoholics who kick, stay sober, and live up to much of their potential.

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Yes, but that's entirely up to them. The point is, to live for the "potential" of something or someone beyond yourself is not a good strategy.

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Originally Posted by catherine

Yes, but that's entirely up to them. The point is, to live for the "potential" of something or someone beyond yourself is not a good strategy.

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Yes, it's hard enough to tackle our own potential! :)

I think when we see how hard it is to create change within ourselves we can be more compassionate, respectful, and realistic of how hard it is for others to create change within themselves. Especially when that change is not self-driven.

This is why I have such tremendous respect for Chicken Lady. She is working very, very hard to create change within herself even though that change is painful. And she is taking complete ownership of her actions and choices, even though they are driven by something within her that she can't fully understand or control. Very hard work.

I don't think hoarding is greedy, because I don't think hoarders necessarily buy anymore than anyone else. This varies a lot, some do, and you see them on Hoarders with the unopened boxes from Ebay I guess. But that varies.

What hoarders do is they refuse to get rid of (by one way or other) things others do get rid of and so they might accumulate more over time (ok and some people may not even accumulate any more than anyone else, but just have an organization problem, they either need to be organized like other people with the same amount of stuff are, or own less than others).

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Originally Posted by catherine

Yes, but that's entirely up to them. The point is, to live for the "potential" of something or someone beyond yourself is not a good strategy.

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Oh, I know.

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Originally Posted by Geila

Yes, it's hard enough to tackle our own potential! :)

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I tackled my potential. It just never got up to play again after that. haha

If hoarding is a condition - the way depression or bulimia or anxiety is - what purpose does it serve to judge it? Asking whether being a hoarder is greedy would be like asking if a bulimic is wasteful for throwing up the food they eat. It misses the point.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I tackled my potential. It just never got up to play again after that. haha

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Did you beat it into submission? :D