I just saw this article posted to one of the firearms forums I frequent and immediately thought of Rob. I suspect he would approve.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i..._southeas.html
I'm not surprised where it happened - Portland, in a vegan coffee shop, no less. It's a 4 year old story, but seems timely with the current happenings.
I'm waiting to see if the "no politicking" signs go back up in businesses in my hometown of Portsmouth, NH as the primaries ramp up again. There were incidents last time around that made candidates unwelcome in some of the eating establishments there.
I have mixed feelings about this one - interestingly enough, too, I have lived in Portland, OR, for 5.5 years before and I can see this happening there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tradd
Recently I had lunch at a mostly vegetarian cafe here in Phoenix and it was past the lunch rush and the cafe was mostly empty. Just as the counter person set my Greek Salad in front of me, a Phoenix Police Officer walked in and went to the counter to order and ending out sitting close to me. He did not look at me nor hassle me nor cause any issues but you'd better well believe I was uncomfortable and that my meal experience was ruined. Ever since witnessing the Phoenix police illegally and brutally assaulting my Guatemalan neighbors I will never trust the police again. Trust towards the police has been permanently severed for me and I see them now as potential thugs (not all are thugs, no, my point is that some engage in this behavior and since I have witnessed it I can't deny it) to be avoided at all costs and not to believe anything they may say. So, given this was my frame of mind, of course my meal was ruined. I was going to get up and leave but no, I'll be damned if I get up and leave due to a cop. Not happening, my rights matter.
All that said, I understand that this cop has rights too, and he did nothing out of line during his time at the cafe. Which brings me to a point about American police I thought of this morning and that I have not brought up on this board yet -
One big huge problem with the American police is - THEY HAVE A REPUTATION WHICH PRECEDES THEM. No one has mentioned this yet but this is why I was so unnerved in the cafe and why my meal was ruined even though the cop did nothing out of line. I'd be willing to bet this is a two way street, too. To cops, I'd be wiling to bet that lower income neighborhoods have a reputation that precedes them. Of course my neighbors and I feel justified in our views of the police, and I'd be willing to bet that the cops feel justified with their take, too.
I don't know of any way to fix this - other than video and lawsuits against them when they cross the line. And next time, I think I'd be best off leaving the cafe.....It's giving them too much to let them ruin my meal due to the rep they have, that they represent, by their mere presence. But I'd never ask for a cop to leave, either - I'm afraid such could be used against me somehow. Portland, OR, and the way people tend to think there is a bit different from Phoenix, AZ and the way people tend to think here, too. I do remember during my time in Portland I was not so afraid of the police - they honestly seemed to have some respect and more importantly, they seemed to know when to stop and not cross the line. This is all I ask for from the police - don't cross the line into illegal behavior, make some commitment towards this with pre-determined amounts of settlement money for violations, and then I might be able, after several years at a minimum, to extend them some benefit of the doubt and at least neutrality.
Witnessing my neighbors assaulted for no reason by the police really cemented my views of law enforcement. Brutally breaking the law like that in plain view? Any thinking person would never see the police the same way again in my book. As things are now, at this moment, in regards to law enforcement vs. the general public, I don't see much hope for change overall. Rob
I came back to add something. I'm going to alter my stance somewhat about not having much hope for change overall - I do see hope for more victims standing up to the police and going after huge settlements for illegal assualts/attacks by the police. Eventually I believe the money involved will be so great that change will have to begin to happen as the payoffs earned (and the global reputation earned via the large payoffs) will become unsustainable. So yes - I do see hope but not right away.
http://www.oregonlive.com/dining/ind...nounces_c.html
I have never known a business in Portland or the surrounding areas that didn't support and encourage law enforcement to be their customers. I have known businesses that discriminated to be shunned.
Just looked at the photo, and I would not want to patronize that business, or be associated with Those People in any way. Too unsavory. The cop probably went in there to get coffee, just to see what was going on, and the guy kicked him out because he realized it. Plus, the guy was prolly in a bad mood on account of business being slow.
What do you think about people that feel the same way towards Blacks, Hispanics, gays?Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
Not sure about the need to post this old story on Easter weekend. That said, I wave to police as they drive by, nod a greeting if I see them in coffee shops or on the street and receive a wave or nod back - the same as if I was greeting anyone else during my day.
"What you hold in thought, you bring into your experience" has been my policy and practice. I would lose substantially in my life if I stayed angry at anyone and projected that anger onto others. I choose not to have that loss but YMMV.
"We would prefer that there be some practical alternative to police like community forums for restorative justice, for example."
This is how civilizations fail.
Sounds like pure democracy in action to me, although pure democracy is best described as tyranny of the majority.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
Well put dmc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
I actually think it was best described by Winston ChurchillQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
"...it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"
Perhaps, but we're talking about two different things. A pure democracy is a system whereby power is exercised directly by the people. A typical democracy maintains a representative form of government. Some may not grasp the distinction, but it's huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Weston
Last night, I popped into the local burrito/taco joint to grab a quick dinner before drill. Two sheriff's deputies strolled in, and sat down, one on either side of me at the counter. "Hello, Doug, hello Ray" I said nervously, as they were eyeing my green chili burrito with typical police brutality...
Doug bought my dinner for me, since I made him dinner at the fire station the other day, I wish I'd gotten that abuse of power on video so I could have posted it to Youtube.
When I left, and went to the fire station for water supply/tender shuttle drill, Officer Doug followed me the entire way, just waiting for me to make a mistake. Clearly profiling. When I pulled into the station and got ready to don my firefighting gear, the Sheriff got out of his car, opened up the trunk, and pulled out a big red bag. Glaring at me, he unzipped the bag, and pulled out his own firefighting gear, and said "OK, boy, draw!", and we each started suiting up. I beat him with a time of 42 seconds to his 51.
Then we walked over to a shiny red truck, got in, and started our drill.
I felt so uncomfortable the whole time. Those firefighting suits can really be unpleasant after a good burrito.
I surprised a CBP officer recently (she was an unexpected attendee at a seminar I was at) by asking her what type of pistol she carried on duty. Once she got over her surprise, we had a nice chat about shooting.
And Sheriff Ray, don't get me started on him. Why just the other day I walked into my favorite bar here, the Lower Tavern (to distinguish it from the Upper Tavern), only to find Ray atop of one of the bar patrons on the ground, brutally using his fists on the poor fellow's chest. I could hear ribs cracking! One of the other patrons said Ray had been doing this for 5 minutes before I came in. The guy on the ground looked like he was just about dead.
Another 9 minutes of CPR from the rest of us who showed up, and application of the AED from Ray's cruiser's trunk managed to save the guy's life. Good thing Ray initiated CPR as soon as he saw the fellow drop to the ground, when he had wandered into the bar at closing time for his ritual bar-check to make sure nobody needed a friendly ride home.
Brutality!
And profiling!Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
hey it's a 4 year old story but it provides something to get angry about, that's the whole point. A 4 year old story about a portland anarchist coffee shop (whole issues with the fbi and so on with that community) as if it's vastly symbolic of something much larger (the red and the black, there is also of course a famous novel of that name).Quote:
Not sure about the need to post this old story on Easter weekend.
And hey a free slam at vegans because them vegans are all the same .... so no wonder, what can you expect from vegans, they don't even enjoy a nice steak. If a political site is suddenly posting this they are playing you - the past always matters, but seeking out 4 year old little tiny stories to make a point is cherry picking. If it's just some random poster, they are stirring things up, but people will.
Since we're telling police stories: Years ago, I was the Controller of a county in central Wisconsin. I was having a beer with our Sheriff, and asked him if he wanted to order a pizza. He told me he seldom dined out locally because so many kitchen staff had spent time in his jail. That made me realize that these guys often pay a price beyond what you might ordinarily think of for what they do.
So when some morally superior, easily aggrieved twit claims to be "uncomfortable", it makes me think that people who treat cops like that don't deserve to have any.
Rob says "of course my meal was ruined" by a police officer simply and politely sharing a restaurant with him. An officer who every day likely puts his life, health, and sanity on the line to protect people like Rob from terrible terrible things done by terrible terrible people.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
I almost don't understand why police even bother to show up in neighborhoods full of Robs.
I was referring to the pusillanimous Portland peapod purveyor; but I would certainly agree with you that anyone having trouble enjoying his kale just because there are cops in the vicinity is the one with the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I myself have on occasion felt ill-used by nuns, drill sergeants, lawyers and software developers. However, I still respect their roles in society and would never allow the sight of one to affect my appetite.
I'll grant you here that on the surface you have a very valid point - especially given that I am in one of the three groups you mention. The only problem is that I have not seen any blacks, Hispanics, or gays wearing a badge, sworn to protect and serve, paid via taxpayers, and collecting a generous pension after X number of years of service brutally and illegally assault my Guatemalan neighbors = I have only witnessed the Phoenix police engaging in such an activity. Dig a little deeper than the surface and perhaps you'll see my point?Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
I mean no rudeness when I say what I am about to say.....seriously. I often wish I could live on the surface and not dig deeper than your above statement about blacks, Hispanics, or gays. I'd be willing to bet life would be easier for me if I could but I am unable to live that way. No fault of yours, that's just how I'm wired I guess. Once again, I'll even agree that on the surface only you have a very good point. Rob
How do you know the police officer involved in the assault you witnessed was not gay?
Bae, the problem with your statement here is that police misdeeds = such as the police brutally and illegally attacking my Guatemalan neighbors = such behavior has consequences. And not just the large settlement my neighbors were able to get = I am now unable to trust the police period. If asked questions by a police officer, I will show ID as I am legally required to do - and then will refuse to cooperate stating that I am afraid of the police and continually asking Am I free to go after repeating that I have nothing to say and that I don't care to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
The police have earned my non-compliance. Period. No one here seems to understand this. For me to cooperate with the police having seen what I have seen is to approve of their brutal and illegal attack on my neighbors and I won't live with that - I deserve better. Period. To cooperate with the police in my case is to also state that the illegal attack on the elderly man from India in Alabama was acceptable, or the illegal attack and murder of a homeless man in Albuquerque by the Albuquerque police was acceptable. It isn't to me and I won't condone such, I couldn't live with myself if I did. By extension to cooperate with police is to condone the arrests and prison sentences of people who were innocent and who have served long prison terms for crimes they did not commit who have been released via DNA evidence. I can't condone this either.
Point being - in my case the police have very much earned my non cooperation. I and my neighbors in this corner of the world deserve better than always being a potential victim of the police and of the revenue hungry "justice system". Rob
I don't know this. I'll give you that. If he was gay, he still was/is a Phoenix police officer who brutally and illegally attacked my Guatemalan neighbors. Police officer comes first over being gay in this case as most gay men are not wearing a badge and sworn to serve and protect. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by bae
Here's a case of racial profiling in action. In 2007 I took a trip down to Nogales, Arizona, by bus and walked across the border to Mexico to save a boatload of cash on dental work. On the way back, on the US side, there is a checkpoint some number of miles into the US. The Border Patrol agents wanted all the passengers to get off the bus at this checkpoint. They had the drug dogs enter the bus and they checked everyone's paperwork very intensively expect mine and one other passenger's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
So - here's the $64,000 question - what was the race of the two people whose ID wasn't even looked at/asked for? Bingo - I and the other passenger were Caucasian. When the Border Patrol Agent approached I had my passport ready to show him and he said, "You're OK" and didn't even look at it, not even a quick glance. I can not begin to express how disgusted I am with America over that - I only wish certain posters here could have experienced this first hand as I did. Racial profiling is real and does indeed take place. My question is - how does one forgive America for it's hypocrisy in regards to this? Rob
One man patrols neighborhoods where he is often despised, accepting risk, insult and an immense apparatus of formal and informal second-guessing for decisions he must make quickly under pressure.
Another man dislikes the first on sight despite knowing nothing about him, and has made clear he would under no circumstances do anything to cooperate with him as he attempts to protect his life and property.
Who is the better man?
Given what I have seen with my own eyes that the police are capable of, I'd have to say I couldn't make a blanket statement either way. I'd have to do this one on a case by case basis. In some cases, the cop would be the better of the two, if they were in it for the right reasons and not abusing their power/crossing the line into illegal behavior and feeding the terror so many have of the police. In some cases, the person who refused to cooperate with the cop would be the much better person, especially when dealing with a power tripping cop that is crossing the line into illegal and questionable behavior. Once again, life is complex - I can't do a simple blanket answer on this one but would need to review this on a case by case basis. Especially with some high profile cases recently where officers have been arrested and charged for their illegal behavior in their dealings with the public. Certainly trash exists on both sides of this equation, and I believe there is decency in a few scattered cops out there so I'd have to say there is some decency on both sides of this equation too. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
It's not a matter of understanding, just agreement. I saw a waiter drop food and put it back on the plate and serve it to people. I've heard about waiters putting unsavory things in food to get back at customers (don't ask what's in the cream of mushroom soup). But I am still capable of giving each waiter I work with the benefit of the doubt, am not traumatized to the point of neurosis by the sight of them, and don't run around like chicken little saying everyone should video record every interaction with a waiter to be sure they don't **** up your order and make equivocal statements that maybe just maybe there could be a decent person who works as a waiter somewhere. You really need to seek help.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
Waiters can't arrest you, haul you in to jail, shoot you and kill you and possibly get away with it. Waiters tend not to carry guns (at least in the workplace) are constantly and continuously vulnerable to any perception or issue a guest has, whether it's true or not. Dealing with a cop, the cop is in charge and expects to be in charge of the situation - a waiter truly is at the public's mercy. You can complain about your waiter to a manager and get the waiter in trouble - a cop is going to be shielded from public complaints more often than not. There are huge differences between dealing with a waiter and a cop, seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
Though to be fair, litigation when a cop goes too far will tend to yield you much more money and publicity then litigating against a waiter or a restaurant chain. So there's one plus.
About needing help.....As I keep saying, I'm not the only one out there who thinks this way. Perhaps in your life my beliefs are out there - where I live it's pretty much expected that you think this way - the police have a reputation of corruption and illegal behavior that precedes them to this level of distrust from those they "protect and serve" - sarcasm very much intended.
I find it amazing that some of the posters here seem to be fine accepting brutally illegal behavior on the part of the police but when someone like myself sees it completely differently after seeing first hand what the police are capable of - I'm the one who's wrong, or off, or my beliefs are not valid. Pretty scary stuff in a time when officers are even starting to be arrested and charged for going too far - yet the tendency to believe the police are right continues.....I'm glad I don't think that way is all I can say. Seeing the police brutally and illegally attack my neighbors ruined the ability to ever trust the police for life. This to me seems very logical given what I have seen and experienced. I'm only responding to the reality of police misbehavior that I have witnessed. To let it go would be to condone it, and no way am I going to live with that. I care about people far too much to ever condone brutal and illegal police behavior. Rob
I forgot to mention that I have known waiters who have spit in food and done other disgusting things with a guests food - this is almost always a case of the server striking back for being treated horribly by a guest. I don't agree with it and I have not done it myself (though over the years I've really wanted to a few times) but I can understand how being treated horribly by a guest you are serving would drive a server to do this. I completely understand even though I don't approve. I have however wished guests death before (under my breath of course) and I have been able to milk horrible treatment in the past when I've had decent managers for time off I've wanted or for a better schedule. Doing nasty things with a guest's food to retaliate I can certainly understand but what's really in it for you? Much better to use it to get something you want instead - i.e. time off you want or Mondays off for awhile or something similar. Though I also understand that as a server you are so vulnerable and so powerless it's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and not think logically about how you can use being treated horribly - such as being treated in such a way that would get you fired from many office jobs or at least written up - to your advantage to get something you want. Sometimes you just have to make the most of what you have to work with. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
Absolutely, cops have a much bigger impact, for better or worse. Usually for the better, but the point wasn't to equate their contributions to society or to condone bad actions, it was an (apparently ineffective) attempt to get you to start realizing bad acts by a few people in any occupation aren't necessarily cause for a meltdown around all the others. Most people probably feel a little tension when they see a police car pull behind them in traffic. I like to avoid dealing with cops and have seen some cops do some bad things, but overall when looking at it rationally it seems so clear the good outweighs the bad it is hard to support your overreaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
Wow, now I find out about waiters. Did you whip out your phone for evidence? Who knows what diseases could be passed along. I hope they were caught and fired imediatly, and then prosecuted and sued.
And to to wish death, really. You take an order and bring out food and drinks. How hard is that?
The police have to actually be concerned with being killed on the job from the thugs out there. Sure you can pick out a few out of the thousands out there, but most are good people. Think how much real stress that they have, are they going to go out on a call about some poor waiter who is being attacked by the local thugs and be ambushed.
Hopefully your community can find a way to have the police stay away. I'm sure that would work out best for everyone.
Now we know from a waiter that waiters do disgusting things with food. What can we do? Waiters and servers must be held accountable. We must be able to keep them from working and away from our food. Loss of jobs without the ability to work in the food industry again. After long prison time of course. I now know that waiters are scum, I'll start treating them accordingly, that is if I can even deal with them again. I'm just sorry it took me so long to know about this. How can I live in a country that allows this to happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
I wonder what it would be like if some of the people in the restaurant were often trying to kill you.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
See, this(and the expense) is just another good reason why I don't go into restaurants, unless I absolutely have to. And then, it is a buffet/cafeteria, where I can decide which portion to take. This is a true story: at the northside pizza buffet 7-8 years ago, a group of young whippersnappers(at least 1/2 a dozen) came in, dressed in cargo shorts and T-shirts and with pistols in holsters. I asked one of them: "Hey--what's the deal with the guns, in here?" You kids know me--making friends wherever I go. Ha. Anyway, the whippersnapper says something like: "We're Police Officers". I just made a funny face and went to my table. I'm just sitting here, still wondering what the necessity is--- for that many able-bodied young men, presumeably schooled in po-lice restraint techniques; to carry weapons into a restaurant, dressed in casual attire & not on patrol and responding to an emergency. Oh, I know: the Espirit de Corps; the Gung-Ho Macho-ness of it. Still, I believe it is inappropriate. REAL Tough Guys Don't Need No 9mm Problem Solver, when going in for pizza.
If I were a betting man I'd put a few bucks on the fact that they were returning from mandatory firearms qualification on their off-day and decided to stop for lunch, knowing that the safest place for their firearms was on their person rather than in a car in a public parking lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Packy
Yeah-but: the Pizza Place Offered(it's been closed since 2010) a clear view of the Parkin' lot, from where they were sitting. They could have locked their Problem-solvers in the trunk of their vehicle, out of sight, and out of mind. If they observed someone tampering with their motor vehicle(a felony), they could all quickly sprint out to the lot, and place the suspect under arrest. Then, they would get a big favorable write-up in the paper, and share the glory for keeping us safe. Quite frankly--Being unarmed, I was concerned that I might be the loser in a contest to see who gets the last slice of that luscious, yummy, scrumptious piping-hot pepperoni, sausage, and bacon pizza, piled HIGH with oooooeeey-gooooey mozaaaarellllla cheeeeese. Not quite worth taking a bullet over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
See, that's the thing about the world these days, if given the choice of a reasonable explanation and an absurd one that happens to fit a perverse viewpoint, reason always loses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Packy
Okay--here's another one---just suppose that one of the rookie cops has an undiagnosed tumorous growth bearing against his hypermigdalia up there in his brain. Just like the late Eagle Scout and All-American Boy down there in Awestun, Tx, Charlie Whitman. Okay--suppose the stimulus from biting into a slice of piping-hot pizza(and that ooooey-gooey cheese)causes the tumor to expand enough to cause pressure on that part of the brain that I mentioned which controls aggression, & causes the cop to go berserk(like Charlie did back in '66) and start shooting at everyone; gunning down his comrades before they even have a chance to unholster their people-stoppers. Then, reloads, and guns down a bunch of Pizza Buffet Employees & other patrons. See what I mean? Better be safe, than sorry, and put the Guns up until it's official business time. Hope that wasn't too absurd. No one thought Charlie was absurd, but they definitely thought it could've been prevented. Like Barney says: Nip It. Hope that helps you some. Later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan