Yikes- 2 bombs exploded at the Boston Marathon

[bae]

Also, I had to take a "whole class" in Due Process in law school, and while my grade wasn't the greatest ever, I was pretty clear on legal vs illegal search and seizure and exigent circumstances.

I helped my wife with her "whole class" in law school, and multiple states' bar exams, and have to myself apply exigent circumstances almost every week in firefighting and arson investigation in ways that will cost big $$$ if I mess up. And with that, we'll have to disagree. I don't think anything illegal happened here, and people didn't have their rights trampled on, and there wasn't "a police state".


OMG: breaking news: police state!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,6722608.story

[bae]

That is to say, there's enough *real* police state stuff going on that making an issue out of this event is a bit...precious :-)

[bUU]

But likening that to "a police state" shows ignorance of law, custom, and history.

I agree. I think the opposite is actually what's going on increasingly in our society: Antisocial obstruction of reasonable measures to safeguard the community.

[Zoebird]

I helped my wife with her "whole class" in law school, and multiple states' bar exams, and have to myself apply exigent circumstances almost every week in firefighting and arson investigation in ways that will cost big $$$ if I mess up. And with that, we'll have to disagree. I don't think anything illegal happened here, and people didn't have their rights trampled on, and there wasn't "a police state".


OMG: breaking news: police state!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,6722608.story

foremost, you started the comment of someone not knowing about the law, history, or custom. I never stated that you weren't aware -- I just simply countered that I am aware.

second, I never claimed that anyone's rights were trampled on. From the beginning, I noted that they were asking and receiving permission -- which essentially states that there's no violation here (and no exigent circumstances either).

My only question is to the mindset of why the individual citizens seemed so cool with it all. I'm not entirely comfortable with that reaction (from the citizenry).

third, i was focusing specifically on "looks like" a police state. I reiterated that the photos of an empty city, police going door to door asking to search "looks like" a police state. I also agree that there are other things that are far more concerning and actual "police state-y" things happening all around that need more attention.

which also points back to -- why are citizens doing what they are doing? how are they making these sorts of decisions?

finally, inflammatory (haha!) comparisons are unnecessary.

[creaker]

Everything did go back to normal after the suspect was caught.

If one was to target actions pointing to a police state, I'd point at the NYPD stop and frisk program. Or harassment of those videotaping or monitoring police. Or labeling legal protest as "low level terrorism".

[awakenedsoul]

Zoebird,

You said that most of the crime is theft where you are. We've had people blowing themselves up here in bunkers and in vacation homes. One guy took a child hostage for a week! In these situations, most of us just want to assist the police in finding and catching someone who would blow your legs off. It's scary. Terrorism is a totally different mentality. Having a child, you might feel differently if the police were rescuing him and needed to search each yard for a killer on the run.

[Miss Cellane]

To me, those pictures of Boston do not look like a "police state." They look like a state of emergency. They look like similar pictures taken during or after a hurricane or blizzard (minus the snow) or a major blackout. Not a police state. We've had the National Guard in Boston after major blizzards that closed the city down, and we were grateful for their presence. Definitely eerie, so see familiar streets so empty, but not a vision of a police state.

To me, a "police state" is more something you feel, rather than something you see. You feel afraid of doing something that someone else might see as suspicious and report to the police. You feel afraid of speaking out against the government, or a specific religion, or a specific law. There might be a curfew, and travel would be restricted, but day to day, people would still go out and go to work and school and go shopping, etc. However, I admit I might be biased here--I grew up on military bases. To me, people in uniform are the "good guys."

My brother, "Ted," lives and works in Boston. He walked the 5 blocks from his apartment to his office on Friday with no problem. He worked all day, with only a few other employees in his company. There were a few other people scattered around the office building. His biggest problem was that almost everything was closed, and he had a hard time finding a sandwich shop that was open so he could get lunch for everyone in the company who made it in that day.

Another brother, "Ned," lives outside Boston and takes the commuter rail into work in the center of the city. He enjoyed a day off, and did a lot of yard work. He was not in an area where houses were being searched.

My cousin was volunteering at the finish line at the Marathon. He lives and works in Boston. After Monday's events, he took the week off from work, because he was very upset at what he saw and needed time to deal with it.

They don't feel as if they were living in a police state for a few days. They are grateful that the suspects were found and dealt with. Mostly what I'm hearing from friends and family is that they were very scared all day Friday, and they are very relieved that the second suspect was caught.

I did catch some blogs and reports from people living in Boston and Cambridge--they were mostly bored, but those that left their homes found nothing to do, because everything was closed.

Up until last year, I lived two miles away from where the second suspect was found, in a town bordering Watertown. Even though my town was not officially on lockdown, I gather that most people stayed home because of the T shutdown, and most people stayed indoors, because the town is right on the border of Cambridge and Watertown and people didn't feel safe leaving their homes.

What I was struck by was the courage that the law enforcement people showed, in going in after someone they knew was armed and who possible had explosives on him. They know their job is dangerous, and they face this every day. I'm grateful we have people willing to do these jobs. My sister and I were watching some bomb squad people getting geared up and didn't know how they manage to face doing that job.

[Miss Cellane]

f

My only question is to the mindset of why the individual citizens seemed so cool with it all. I'm not entirely comfortable with that reaction (from the citizenry).

Zoebird, based on what family and friends living in Boston have said, and my own opinions, most people just wanted the suspects caught and taken off the streets. Once the manhunt started, and people in Watertown knew that someone was on the run, armed with guns and explosives, they just wanted him caught, whatever it took. They wanted to be free from the fear that he was walking their streets, free from worrying about their kids and what might happen to them.

Once the second suspect was caught, people crowded out onto the streets and applauded the police.

While it may have looked like a police state, I think to the people living in the area, it was much more a case of the police doing their jobs and protecting the people.

Of course, once the initial relief is over, I'm sure we'll start hearing some complaints about how the searches were conducted, and the brusk manner in which some householders were treated. Because this isn't a police state and people do have the right to complain.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Everything did go back to normal after the suspect was caught.

If one was to target actions pointing to a police state, I'd point at the NYPD stop and frisk program. Or harassment of those videotaping or monitoring police. Or labeling legal protest as "low level terrorism".

But it's within that context that one might see it as a police state. In a paranoid context, oh very well, but more accurately within a narrative context, within a context that sees things getting worse for civil liberties in the U.S. and is perfectly aware of most of the other things, and that's kinda why one thinks so. And shutting down a major city is *major*. Of course I hear it has been shutdown twice for storms before. It's hard to imagine shutting down a city for crazies, and there have been crazies. Of course on the plus side as extreme as it seems, it could be argued to be handled better than having police shooting at random people just because they feel like it (the Dorner case). Ugh, what a standard to go by though! At least the police didn't go completely feral ....

My only question is to the mindset of why the individual citizens seemed so cool with it all. I'm not entirely comfortable with that reaction (from the citizenry).

third, i was focusing specifically on "looks like" a police state. I reiterated that the photos of an empty city, police going door to door asking to search "looks like" a police state.

Yea pics of tanks and stuff right? And how were the tanks useful at all in the situation, oh right they weren't. I hear various reports on the emptiness of the streets. It wasn't illegal to go out and I hear reports of many people actually going out. Still how was the attempt at a lockdown even useful? It wasn't either, the guy was found after it ended.

I also agree that there are other things that are far more concerning and actual "police state-y" things happening all around that need more attention.

which also points back to -- why are citizens doing what they are doing? how are they making these sorts of decisions?

In many cases it's the having never experienced anything like it, so one acts mostly on reflex, like one has a plan on what to do if an entire city is shut down for a crazy or two (as if crazies in America was anything new, it's not). And no terrorism is not unique, not compared to mass shootings etc., there's nothing particularly unique about it, it's just a word that's used. But though it seems new to me and would be here, and it seems like complete overkill, a whole city afterall - and it didnt' even work, and many many places have faced much more frequent incidents of terror and not shut down cities, they actually did have the precedence of several storms also leading to shutdowns in MA apparently, so maybe the citizens treated it the same way.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Once the manhunt started, and people in Watertown knew that someone was on the run, armed with guns and explosives

I suspect there's a good chance some of this will turn out to be false (armed with explosives etc.). Because ... because ... conspiracy! Well no, because much information we get right at the time of such a thing unfolding turns out to be false.

To me, a "police state" is more something you feel, rather than something you see. You feel afraid of doing something that someone else might see as suspicious and report to the police. You feel afraid of speaking out against the government, or a specific religion, or a specific law.

I think there are good reasons to fear protesting from what one hears about how protests are dealt with (occupy had people trying to kill them. who? it's redacted). Note, I did not say don't protest.

I doubt a police state in the U.S. ever would take the form of cracking down on everyone, what would be the point? You just need to target a very small minority of the population that is really political active (most aren't, voting doesn't cut it).