Speaking as a "conservative", straightening out the mess of that heathcare bill, is productive. i think they are quite cooperative with the president compared to the Dem controlled house was the last one.Originally Posted by Rosemary
Good to see you back Zig !
I think we all have a little socialism in us. Even though we have been told it is evil since birth.
There are some services that must be owned or regulated by government for the common good, even if they are not as profitable as they could be or are run at a financial loss. Privatization and deregulation are only good when competition and cost of services is low enough that the public would pay lower prices than as a government owned business.
There are some services that must be socialized for the benefit of all. Otherwise we would live in a country like this:
- Police only help those who pay fees (i.e. The poor get no justice)
- Schools have fees the parents must pay (the poor get no education)
- No regulation of food production (raw foods could contain pesticides and processed foods contain poisonous chemicals)
- No regulation of medicine (untested and unproven drugs are sold for exorbitant prices)
- Private for profit militias can be built (Blackwater) get government contracts, and have no legal accountability to people they kill or injure
- No worker safety rules; you can be forced to work in unsafe conditions, fired without just cause, docked wages for unjust reasons, etc.
To this list let's add-
+ Medical care is solely dependent on your own income, no health insurance, and doctors can charge what they want
For me we should be working toward what is best for everyone in our society. Sometimes old ideology is hard to change but I think we have matured enough as a nation to accept this change and we would all be better off for it. Let's join the rest of the world community instead of fighting it so much.
Peace
I, too, was disappointed that the universal health care option did not go through, but the health care bill does address several problems that needed to be addressed. Of course, the cost of healthcare is the big problem. Why do medications cost so much? Why are people so inclined to allow themselves to become so out of shape as to need expensive health care? Why do we have a system with so many expensive unnecessary procedures and tests?
Personally, beyond taking good care of myself, I try to avoid the health care system as much as I can. However, as an asthmatic, I'm saddled with having to keep at least some medication around.
I think we need to define a low level of universal health care. Do we need to pay for everyone with a headache to get a cat scan? No. But I would love to think that my tax money provided treatment for broken bones, chronic illnesses, alcoholism, infections that don't go away on their own, etc.
We will, as a nation, be forced to deal with the cost of health care at some point. People can't keep going into debt in order to follow their doctor's advice.
The Republicans say they have a better medial insurance plan but do not have it ready. I would guess this is just talk. If they had a plan they should present it along with the repeal of the current health care plan. Maybe their plan is better and I would even support it but not knowing what it is makes it hard to support.
Any plan even a Republican plan will cause a lot of negative debate.
As I recall, the former Speaker of the House told us we had to approve the current health care bill before we could find out what was in it.
Last edited by Alan; 1-6-11 at 3:29pm. Reason: clarity
Yea, you don't watch Fox News do you Alan.
Well, the fact that we get all of 5 seconds of this speech tells me, and it should tell you, that there is probably more to this. Kind of how Fox will show a clip of Obama saying "I hate kids.." When the whole sentence is "I hate kids shows that tell them to be bad" or something like that. They tend to do that a lot.
We knew quite a lot of what was going to be in it, if we just paid attention. And to give you a hint, it wasn't death panels.
To be honest, I didn't realize that was a fox news clip. If I picked up a link from C-Span would that be better?Yea, you don't watch Fox News do you Alan.
Well, the fact that we get all of 5 seconds of this speech tells me, and it should tell you, that there is probably more to this. Kind of how Fox will show a clip of Obama saying "I hate kids.." When the whole sentence is "I hate kids shows that tell them to be bad" or something like that. They tend to do that a lot.
We knew quite a lot of what was going to be in it, if we just paid attention. And to give you a hint, it wasn't death panels.
If you think there's something more to the context than was presented in the clip, I'd be happy to hear it, along with your example of how Fox News shows a clip of Obama saying "I hate kids...".
I mean, we all know how you feel about Fox, but they had nothing to do with what she said, or the context in which she said it. That strawman has been beaten to death.
Edited to add:
How about this?
Last edited by Alan; 1-6-11 at 5:06pm.
[QUOTE=Dharma Bum;1895]I was kind of hoping the tone would change a little on the move, but c'est la vie. Unequal outcomes are actually a good thing. If everyone was guaranteed the same outcome, why try? It becomes a race to the bottom. What’s your model for this? Soviet Russia? Communist farm communes? How'd those work out? Stick to the goal of providing equal opportunity and rounding off the harsh edges of competition and your position is much more reasonable."
Wow! You do know this is a discussion about health care, right? We're not talking about dog races or who gets the cadillac and who gets the clunker.
Unequal outcomes are a good thing? Really? Perhaps it's good population control. Health care for those who can afford it and everyone else, well, tough. You don't have the good fortune, or your not smart enough or whatever to make enough money so you don't really deserve good health care.
See, no one is wanting to guarantee equal OUTCOMES, just equal OPPORTUNITY. In a dog race, outcomes are different for each dog, but they all start out from the same gate.
Maybe that's the question. Do you really believe there are a large number of people out there who DON'T deserve good health care?
See, I don't really believe republicans want people to get sick and die. Well, maybe some do, but not the majority. But I think most feel that if people wanted health care really really bad they COULD get it. That maybe they just aren't trying hard enough. But that's not the case. You know how expensive it is. Hundreds of dollars every month. Not everyone has a white collar job with decent health care, and the funds to pay for it. Now throw in a sick kid. One with a pre-existing condition, so of course you can't get care even if you wanted to.
I just don't understand how people can not understand this. Best...er, Ziggy is right. There simply are things the government has to take care of in a modern, civilized society.
hey Alan, FOX news is evil................
Yes, I've heard that. Can't remember where.....
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