Baltimorei

[Gregg]

Understood jp1 and it makes sense. Afraid I got wrapped up and caused a diversion. One of my current passions is figuring out how to provide high quality housing at very affordable prices. It can be done pretty easily from the construction standpoint, but there are significant and frustrating roadblocks at every other point on the timeline. And you did have a very valid point about the historic barriers to minorities trying to enter the housing market. That goes way beyond just building codes and, IMO, has its roots in the Jim Crow past and is pretty much systemic from local governments all the way up to the federal level. Its the kind of thing we should all be a lot more aware of and a lot more pissed off about than we are.

[Packy]

Yeah, but you kids are way too idealistic. Even if you COULD acquire some buildable land(a VERY loosely defined term in Ca) right in Fran Sansisco, Callyfornya for a bargain price & build some really, really cheap crackerbox houses, really, really, CHEEP on a 4,000 sf lot, either of two things would happen: Some real estate flipper would come in, buy em up as fast as you build 'em and resell them for $350,000+ each; And/or the 'hood would quickly fill up with marginally successful people--the kind that start riots and sell drugs and drive de carz wid de gold weelz and all that stuff. So, with respect to Fransan Cisco--take your idealism & skill, and go somewhere that it will actually do some good! Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.

[catherine]

Like Rwanda? Like Sudan?

As kib said, Rwanda/Sudan are not what I would consider tribes--but some people think of tribes as being violent, territorial and with short, brutish lives. But that's like saying all Muslims are terrorists. For my idea of tribe, we need not look any farther than our own back yard--here's a description of the lifestyle of the Lenni Lenape Native American tribe which hails from my own state of NJ:

Some of the Lenape lived in large villages of two to three hundred people, but most of them lived in small bands of 25 to 50 people.

Families were important to the Lenape Indians. There were strong ties between parents and children, and among all the related families that made up the clan.

The Lenape had three clans (or phratries) – Wolf, Turtle and Turkey – which traced their descent through the female line. For example, if a mother belonged to the Turtle Clan, then each of her children also belonged to the same clan. The sons had to marry women from other clans, and their children belonged to their mother’s clan.

Within their own groups the Indians were kind to one another. They felt a sense of responsibility towards everyone in their community. They did not steal from anyone in their own village, for there was no reason to do so. The land belonged to the whole community, shelters were shared, and no one hoarded valuable possessions.

I don't know why we are compelled to think that capitalism is the ONLY way to live, when so many other cultures have proven some pretty good alternatives.

[Alan]

I don't know why we are compelled to think that capitalism is the ONLY way to live, when so many other cultures have proven some pretty good alternatives.

I don't think it's the only way to live, but I do believe that capitalism was the catalyst which gave us a choice.

[kib]

I don't think it's the only way to live, but I do believe that capitalism was the catalyst which gave us a choice.

+1, which is why it's evil, e-v-i-l! We all went trampling after it like a herd of runaway elephants, devil take the hindmost and caution be damned, and look at the fine mess it's gotten us into.

... got to go take my meds now.

[catherine]

I don't think it's the only way to live, but I do believe that capitalism was the catalyst which gave us a choice.

I agree, Alan--I'm a happy recipient of the benefits of capitalism, but as the burden of growth on our planet increases, we are well on the way of outgrowing ourselves out of capitalism being a viable alternative. We can't afford a "but there's no other way" mindset.

[LDAHL]

I don't know why we are compelled to think that capitalism is the ONLY way to live, when so many other cultures have proven some pretty good alternatives.

Perhaps not the only way (although most of the contemporary alternatives seem to require a fair amount of force to maintain). And if the idealized hunter-gatherer cultures were truly the superior alternative, wouldn't they have done a better job of surviving contact with the nasty, grasping capitalists?

[catherine]

Perhaps not the only way (although most of the contemporary alternatives seem to require a fair amount of force to maintain). And if the idealized hunter-gatherer cultures were truly the superior alternative, wouldn't they have done a better job of surviving contact with the nasty, grasping capitalists?

If you have a well-adjusted, fully functioning family, and a bunch of thugs force their way in to your home and kill/decimate your family, is that because there was something wrong with your family? In the case of the Native Americans, I don't think they assimilated into Western culture very willingly. They were overcome, sickened with disease, exploited and run off their homelands. Same is true of other aboriginal cultures. It's hard for small local clans or tribes to stand up to highly organized and competitive, self-interested forces of violence and war.

In any case, the way of life we take for granted has only been around for a couple of centuries. On the other hand, humans have lived the "alternative lifestyle" for millions of years, so that speaks to the staying power of that way of life--it's only been in the last couple of hundred years (since the West glommed onto capitalism) that our planet has become increasingly in peril as we wring the earth dry of its abundance.

I'm not saying that we should all go back to primitive lifestyles, although that would be a better alternative than the trajectory we are on. Now it's time to take the best of both worlds, with a focus on innovation and creativity, community and cooperation, regeneration and respect for all life. If capitalism can be redesigned a la Paul Hawken's Natural Capitalism or some other models, great. But right now you can't have capitalism without sacrificing natural resource and human life to the gods of profit.

[kib]

+1

[LDAHL]

If you have a well-adjusted, fully functioning family, and a bunch of thugs force their way in to your home and kill/decimate your family, is that because there was something wrong with your family? In the case of the Native Americans, I don't think they assimilated into Western culture very willingly. They were overcome, sickened with disease, exploited and run off their homelands. Same is true of other aboriginal cultures. It's hard for small local clans or tribes to stand up to highly organized and competitive, self-interested forces of violence and war.

In any case, the way of life we take for granted has only been around for a couple of centuries. On the other hand, humans have lived the "alternative lifestyle" for millions of years, so that speaks to the staying power of that way of life--it's only been in the last couple of hundred years (since the West glommed onto capitalism) that our planet has become increasingly in peril as we wring the earth dry of its abundance.

I'm not saying that we should all go back to primitive lifestyles, although that would be a better alternative than the trajectory we are on. Now it's time to take the best of both worlds, with a focus on innovation and creativity, community and cooperation, regeneration and respect for all life. If capitalism can be redesigned a la Paul Hawken's Natural Capitalism or some other models, great. But right now you can't have capitalism without sacrificing natural resource and human life to the gods of profit.

But if a way of life is incapable of defending itself against cultural corruption or brute force from competing systems (European colonizer, Aztec or Turk), can it really be a superior alternative?