Frugality vs. values?

[Ultralight]

Okay, so in many ways this is something I have not taken on full-on yet. I feel it is part of learning to be financially literate and frugal.

Sometimes when I am trying to save money I have to decide between saving some cash and keeping my values intact.

A clear example of this is shopping for groceries. I can drive 2.5 miles to the Meijer store and pay more for everything. Or I can drive 1.5 miles to the Wal-mart and pay a lot less for everything. Meijer is union (something I usually support). Wal-mart is an evil empire (something I don't usually support).

Another example is organic vs. conventional foods. I like organic and feel they are healthier and impact the environment to a lesser degree. But then again, I gotta keep on grindin' at a job I don't like to pay two or three times as much for that organic item. That doesn't seem healthy.

Thoughts?

[Tammy]

I choose regular food over organic most of the time. I reason that if I eat real food (fruits veggies grains - things that actually look like food) as opposed to junk food, the bits of things in nonorganic are not a problem.

I think of people who pay a lot for organic produce, but then also eat lots of processed junk food. What's the point?

[Ultralight]

Tammy:

I am starting to think I should just get the conventionall-grown foods at the nearby Wal-mart. Swallow my liberal pride and save the cash!

But oh... the mixed feelings!

[catherine]

I believe in the concept of voting with your dollar. It's true you have to make choices, however, it's true that sometimes or oftentimes you can't afford to make a statement with your purchasing power. I know that, but I'm trying my darndest to "vote" for organic, local food because I am so against our food policy in this country on so many levels I won't even go into it here.

If people don't pay attention to where food comes from and they just buy what's cheapest all the time, nothing will change, and that's not acceptable to me.

[Kestra]

I believe in the concept of voting with your dollar. It's true you have to make choices, however, it's true that sometimes or oftentimes you can't afford to make a statement with your purchasing power. I know that, but I'm trying my darndest to "vote" for organic, local food because I am so against our food policy in this country on so many levels I won't even go into it here.

If people don't pay attention to where food comes from and they just buy what's cheapest all the time, nothing will change, and that's not acceptable to me.

So true, Catherine. I think that those of us who can generally afford higher priced food should do so.

OTOH I'm not perfect. I identify with Ultralite's dilemma as I'm carfree and I can walk to the Walmart in under 15 minutes. Now that it's summer I've been going to the farmer's market when I can and just last week I discovered a great Asian grocery store close to my work, so my Walmart shopping will be decreasing dramatically.

I do generally spend the extra money on organic food, wherever I shop, when it's available and not wildly priced above the conventional. Here fresh produce is very expensive regardless, and I'm going to eat that way for my health anyhow, so I don't mind paying a 20-30% premium for organic.

[freshstart]

some of the books and movies on this topic are truly horrifying. Especially the ones about meat

[catherine]

Kestra: I'm far from perfect, but I do what I can. I do buy stuff at Costco and the chain supermarket, but I also belong to a CSA and I grow vegetables and rarely eat meat, and when I do, I buy it from small, local cattle and poultry farmers.

freshstart: Yes, it's not pretty.

One of the things I think about when making these choices is that actually we spend FAR less on food as a proportion of our income than our grandparents did. So we're used to cheap. If we decided to dedicate even half of what our grandparents did to food, we could eat like organic kings! My permaculture teacher said, "Food SHOULD be expensive" which of course many people would say, "tell that to the many families who can't afford it."

But the point is, it's cheap for all the wrong reasons. And to Tammy's point, if we cut out the junk, there's lots of room for REAL food.

Here's an interesting graphic on how we spend our money today vs 100 years ago.

[Tammy]

Excellent graph.

Here's something I read recently about pesticides:

http://www.realclearscience.com/jour...rs_109305.html

[ToomuchStuff]

Frugality IS a value!!!!!
It isn't just a skill. You have to look at your real life circumstances and adjust them to fit both your values and priorities. Then you start also trying to adjust and look for other options (try not to be the type that it is this or that option only). What about things like friends or community gardens? Are you only trying to eat locally grown foods? What about items you can't readily find locally? Have anyone your supporting/caring for and how does that affect your view?
These are all other things that you will need to consider and we can't make the decision for you.

[catherine]

Excellent graph.

Here's something I read recently about pesticides:

http://www.realclearscience.com/jour...rs_109305.html

I don't want to hijack the thread--we could take this the Environment forum.

However, I just want to respond briefly by saying that pesticides on non-organic foods is probably the least of my concerns. Heck, I'm 63--if my cell structure hasn't changed by now with all the chemicals I've taken in, it never will!

But not eating organic means that…


… our soil is being raped. When chemicals are in the soil and crops are grown in monoculture, it messes up the microbiome. I love dirt. Soil is a wonderful, miraculous substance--not just one "thing" but a living body. Nature has a wonderful way of getting the millions of little creatures under the soil to work together. When you introduce pesticides and herbicides you're messing that up--you think you can concoct a better substitute for growing medium than Mother Nature--guess again.

…there's a good chance that people are working under slavish conditions. Of course it's not always true, but it's more likely that the people who work an organic farm are not working in suboptimal conditions. Food for the organic farmer is less likely to be a just a profit center.

…we're killing off diversity. The ecological balance is tipped in favor of the chemicals. We don't know why all these pollinators are dying off, but it's very possible that pesticides could be responsible. We have half the species of wildlife that we had 40 years ago. People like to think that it doesn't matter, but we are in this web of life and we will be impacted.

…animals are being treated cruelly. No matter what you think about meat eating, if you visited a concentrated feed lot, you might have a hard time eating a burger on the way home.

…you're not getting all the vitamins from your food that you could. Studies have shown that there are significantly higher levels of vitamins and nutrients in organic food, basically because of my first point.

…you are voting for multi-national corporations who are trying to make employees out of all the world's small farmers, stripping them of food sovereignty--the right to define and control their own food systems.

THAT'S why I try to eat organic.