Prayapolooza in Houston

[reader99]

Loosechickens said: "They don't boycott the Red Lobster because people are in there eating shellfish, or think that people should be put to death for not honoring the sabbath, or disrespecting their parents. They don't believe it is o.k. to sell their daughters into slavery, etc. All things that are in that same Old Testament, but are things they no longer believe. But the things that are in the Old Testament that agree with their own feelings are somehow sacrosanct. It doesn't make sense. "

THANK YOU Loosechickens; that is a thought I have been trying to put into words and couldn't.

[Zigzagman]

From a blog here in Austin - I think expresses the real issue with the Prayer service to be held in Houston by Rick Perry.

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I didn't buy it when Rick Perry pretended to shoot a coyote during the last gubernatorial campaign and I'm having a hard time believing that Rick Perry pretending to care about the nation's problems by hosting a national day of prayer is actually going to convince any of the 4.3 million Texans who live in poverty that he does. As for fasting, Rick Perry starving himself for a day isn't going to trick those in this state who go hungry for weeks on end into thinking they are full.

Wrapping up both of these ideas into a fancy website littered with platitudes isn't going to fool God, either.

We're all friends here so I'm going to let you in on a little secret: Praying is easy. A person can feign concern, close their eyes and raise their hands upward toward the heavens all without having to fix their hair.

In other words, praying is perfect for Perry.

What's not easy, and what requires a little more hair gel than quoting passages from Joel, is actual work.

Work is being homeless.

Work is walking to a bus stop every day in the 100-degree heat.

Work is teaching yourself what public schools failed to teach you.

Work is losing a job.

Work is looking for a job.

Work is waiting for food stamps.

Work is having pain but not having the resources to make it go away.

Rick Perry's right on one thing: Texas can do better. But to be better, we're going to have to work at it. Work is not closing your eyes and praying for those you don't want to see.

It is opening your eyes and helping those you can.

Peace

[kib]

... to be better, we're going to have to work at it. Work is not closing your eyes and praying for those you don't want to see. It is opening your eyes and helping those you can.

What a marvelous quote. Thank you, Zigzagman and Blogger!

[ApatheticNoMore]

Work is teaching yourself what public schools failed to teach you.

Basically something ALL of us who went to the public schools have to do, do, and continue to do every day. Because the whole view of the world we grew up with has nothing to do with current reality.

[Gregg]

But to be better, we're going to have to work at it. Work is not closing your eyes and praying for those you don't want to see.

It is opening your eyes and helping those you can.

Peace

Also my favorite line from your quote Zig, thanks. Pretty salty advice for those of us from outside the Lone Star State as well.

[peggy]

Beautiful Zig. Just, beautiful.

[poetry_writer]

"Well, even if my viewpoint is becoming obsolete...there are still a few Jews who keep kosher...I'm good with being a minority") (catwoman)

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And that's fine. And, so long as those Jews don't try to paint others, who are not even Jewish as "sinful", "unnatural", or dangerous if they don't keep kosher, too, and so long as they don't try to influence the passage of legislation that would force people who are not Jewish to adjust their eating habits to conform to said Jewish peoples' idea of what is correct, in accordance "with G-d's wishes", etc., they'll get no argument from me.

But arent you doing what you accuse of others of doing when you demand that any group believe a certain way? You say Jews cant paint anyone as sinful or unatural. You demand Christians phrase things so as not to offend anyone. For example, if I said I believe Jesus Christ is the only way to God. You'd come after me (verbally speaking). So you are demanding that others "dont" do a certain thing. Yet you say they cant do certain thing or have certain beliefs.

[loosechickens]

Au contraire, poetry_writer. If you said "I believe Jesus Christ is the only way to God", I would both respect your view and defend your right to believe it. I don't happen to believe that myself, but I feel you have every right to believe it and govern your own life in accordance with that belief.

However, you can't say, as FACT, "The only way to God is through Jesus Christ", both because it is a BELIEF and not a FACT, and because you have no real right to force your view on others.

It's a subtle difference, but very real. It's what makes it just fine to say on these boards, "I believe such and such", but not o.k. to say, "My way is the only truth, and anyone who doesn't believe as I believe is following a false religion", and in fact, is outside the guidelines of the forum.

Those Jews (of the above illustration by catwoman, not to be confused with actual Jews) can BELIEVE that anyone who doesn't keep kosher is sinful or unnatural. They are free to BELIEVE whatever they like. What they CANNOT do in a pluralistic, secular society, is to force others to adjust their behavior, eating habits, etc., to conform to the Jews' belief that the peoples' actions are sinful, etc. Or to try to get legislation passed that would allow only kosher food served in restaurants open to the public, say.

So the members of the American Family Association can believe that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and unnatural, and so long as they use that belief to govern their OWN behavior in those matters, and not attempt to get laws passed to make other people conform to their beliefs, it's fine. We may see them as prejudiced, and that is OUR right to believe them to be prejudiced, but it wouldn't be all right, say, for us to say, "Well, they are prejudiced and believe something that I don't believe, and therefore, we should make laws discriminating against them, and preventing them from exercising free belief in whatever they want to believe, IN THEIR OWN LIVES. And, in fact, since we think that they are not only prejudiced, but wrong, they shouldn't be allowed to hold their views." That would be completely wrong, and discriminatory.

Remember, that the whole focus of this thread was whether it was appropriate for an elected Governor of a state, in his official capacity of Governor of ALL Texans, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, etc., gay, straight, etc., to sponsor a prayer extravaganza directed to one specific religion, and on top of that have a cosponsor that has a strong anti gay and lesbian public presence, when said gays and lesbians are Texas citizens, and some significant number of Texans are not even Christian.

Which has little or nothing to do with whether Christians or anyone else is free to believe what they like. We have separation of church and state in this country, whether those of the dominant religion want to face that or not.

Does that make sense to you? There is a very clear distinction, but often difficult to see, particular if someone is seeing BELIEF as FACT, when they are, in fact, two completely different things.

[poetry_writer]

Au contraire, poetry_writer. If you said "I believe Jesus Christ is the only way to God", I would both respect your view and defend your right to believe it. I don't happen to believe that myself, but I feel you have every right to believe it and govern your own life in accordance with that belief.

However, you can't say, as FACT, "The only way to God is through Jesus Christ", both because it is a BELIEF and not a FACT, and because you have no real right to force your view on others.

It's a subtle difference, but very real. It's what makes it just fine to say on these boards, "I believe such and such", but not o.k. to say, "My way is the only truth, and anyone who doesn't believe as I believe is following a false religion", and in fact, is outside the guidelines of the forum.

Those Jews (of the above illustration by catwoman, not to be confused with actual Jews) can BELIEVE that anyone who doesn't keep kosher is sinful or unnatural. They are free to BELIEVE whatever they like. What they CANNOT do in a pluralistic, secular society, is to force others to adjust their behavior, eating habits, etc., to conform to the Jews' belief that the peoples' actions are sinful, etc. Or to try to get legislation passed that would allow only kosher food served in restaurants open to the public, say.

So the members of the American Family Association can believe that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and unnatural, and so long as they use that belief to govern their OWN behavior in those matters, and not attempt to get laws passed to make other people conform to their beliefs, it's fine. We may see them as prejudiced, and that is OUR right to believe them to be prejudiced, but it wouldn't be all right, say, for us to say, "Well, they are prejudiced and believe something that I don't believe, and therefore, we should make laws discriminating against them, and preventing them from exercising free belief in whatever they want to believe, IN THEIR OWN LIVES. And, in fact, since we think that they are not only prejudiced, but wrong, they shouldn't be allowed to hold their views." That would be completely wrong, and discriminatory.

Remember, that the whole focus of this thread was whether it was appropriate for an elected Governor of a state, in his official capacity of Governor of ALL Texans, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, etc., gay, straight, etc., to sponsor a prayer extravaganza directed to one specific religion, and on top of that have a cosponsor that has a strong anti gay and lesbian public presence, when said gays and lesbians are Texas citizens, and some significant number of Texans are not even Christian.

Which has little or nothing to do with whether Christians or anyone else is free to believe what they like. We have separation of church and state in this country, whether those of the dominant religion want to face that or not.

Does that make sense to you? There is a very clear distinction, but often difficult to see, particular if someone is seeing BELIEF as FACT, when they are, in fact, two completely different things.

If I didnt believe it to be fact, I would not be basing my life and death on it. You cannot limit me to saying "I believe it to be fact" , forcing or demanding I phrase it according to you, unless you yourself want to be guilty of what you are accusing others. As far as forcing anyone, I cant force anyone to believe anything. Nor would I try. I dont know who the American Family assn is, never heard of them, so cant comment on that.

[Alan]

However, you can't say, as FACT, "The only way to God is through Jesus Christ", both because it is a BELIEF and not a FACT, and because you have no real right to force your view on others.

I think the real question is, can a person express his belief that it is a fact that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, without having someone else feel that it is an imposition on their own beliefs. You wouldn't consider it proselytizing and a violation of forum guidelines to have someone proclaim that there is no god and no path to heaven would you? They're both just individual beliefs.

As inconvenient as it might be for those too insecure in their own beliefs as to feel threatened by others, there is still freedom of speech in this country. Isn't there?