Action vs talk - George Carlin on the anti-abortion movement

[Zoebird]

bae, that is tragic. thanks for reminding us of the other side, too. though, seeing their criminality, i could assume that even if abortion were illegal, they'd still play that game. tragic, tragic. yes, human evil certainly does exist.

[bae]

bae, that is tragic. thanks for reminding us of the other side, too. though, seeing their criminality, i could assume that even if abortion were illegal, they'd still play that game. tragic, tragic. yes, human evil certainly does exist.

Yes. At least to my understanding most of the support organizations now share data with each other to try to detect this sort of serial behaviour, though I'm not sure what that really accomplishes :-(

[Zoebird]

the main thing it accomplishes is those organizations not being used to protect people from prosecution for crimes, or their resources aren't being 'used.'

[bae]

True enough. Hopefully by reducing the marketing channel for serial-criminal-baby-sellers, they'd be encouraged to find some other line of work.

[creaker]

My position (I'm male, but I'll dare to speak anyways) is as follows:

- I think a "fetus" at some point in its development is human in some important sense, and I won't *****foot around the fact that abortion is killing.
- I think that all beings deserve equal consideration of interests.
- I do not believe in using force against another except in case of self defense.
- I think the mother's right to control of her body outweighs the unborn human's right to occupy her body. If necessary, I would kill a man on the spot, quite legally in this state, to stop him from using force to coerce me into serving him against my will for a day, or an hour, or a minute. Forcing me to serve his interests against my will for 9 months seems even more troublesome.


So, in general:

- I am opposed to abortion personally. And so I take steps to avoid encountering the issue in my life. Though apparently nature finds a way, and my daughter arrived on the scene 2 years ahead of schedule. So be it.
- I would not presume to tell a mother what she should or should not decide about aborting her baby. I don't think her husband even has that "right". Or her doctor, or her priest.
- I would not presume to tell a doctor he had to perform abortions against his will.
- I find distinctions of "against abortion except in cases of rape or incest" to miss the fundamental ethical points - you are either killing, or you aren't, and if you are, you need to think through if the killing, the use of force, is acceptable. I find this use of force possible acceptable, and it's the mother's call.

I think this a very well thought out position.

[peggy]

My position (I'm male, but I'll dare to speak anyways) is as follows:

- I think a "fetus" at some point in its development is human in some important sense, and I won't *****foot around the fact that abortion is killing.
- I think that all beings deserve equal consideration of interests.
- I do not believe in using force against another except in case of self defense.
- I think the mother's right to control of her body outweighs the unborn human's right to occupy her body. If necessary, I would kill a man on the spot, quite legally in this state, to stop him from using force to coerce me into serving him against my will for a day, or an hour, or a minute. Forcing me to serve his interests against my will for 9 months seems even more troublesome.


So, in general:

- I am opposed to abortion personally. And so I take steps to avoid encountering the issue in my life. Though apparently nature finds a way, and my daughter arrived on the scene 2 years ahead of schedule. So be it.
- I would not presume to tell a mother what she should or should not decide about aborting her baby. I don't think her husband even has that "right". Or her doctor, or her priest.
- I would not presume to tell a doctor he had to perform abortions against his will.
- I find distinctions of "against abortion except in cases of rape or incest" to miss the fundamental ethical points - you are either killing, or you aren't, and if you are, you need to think through if the killing, the use of force, is acceptable. I find this use of force possible acceptable, and it's the mother's call.

Well said.
Of course you have an opinion, and you stated it very well as it pertains to your family.
I'm so sorry about your sister. Unfortunately, monsters aren't all make believe.

[iris lily]

I think that if Margaret Sanger showed up today in this country she would be shocked, just shocked, at the number of unwanted children that STILL exist after decades of education and superior birth control that far surpasses anything available in her day. Shocked and dismayed.

[Zoebird]

I know that I am.

But on the flip side, I remember when I was a teen, I knew *so many* teens who didn't have the slightest knowledge about their bodies and how babies were made. And they were sexually active. Between ages 14 and 17, I spent a good deal of time in my summers educating my peers. They went to public schools. Their parents had "opted them out" of the sex education program. So, they knew nothing.

I'm not saying that parents "shouldn't" have the right to opt a kid out of a program that they dislike or whatever, but that level of ignorance is . . . devastating in my opinion.

And, teens are rather capricious about the whole thing, and sometimes rules work against people. For example, my catholic school did have comprehensive education. But, they also had rules. The rule book -- which had been last edited in the 1950s -- stated that if a girl became pregnant, she could attend our school from home (correspondence) and then not "walk in graduation" (which meant wearing a white dress and carrying a red rose and apparently was really important to people). If she gave that child up for adoption after the birth, then she could return to school. If she kept the child, she could not return to school.

So, after 1972, graduation became WAY more important than babies. And a lot of girls whom I knew had abortions.

In 1992 -- my sophomore year and the first year that I heard of a classmate getting an abortion because she wanted to walk in graduation -- I went to the principal and vice principal and asked them if they were pro-life. If they were, I postulated, then they would do things that *prevented* abortion. This would include things like "girls being able to stay in school with us" and possibly considering "allowing them to walk in graduation."

For me, walking in graduation was meaningless. I don't get it. But apparently for a lot of people, it's Really Really Super Important and Meaningful. That goes for adults too -- parents, teachers, and admin all seem to feel that Graduation is Awesomely Important and Sacred.

My argument: Is it more sacred than human life itself?

By 1993, the rules had been amended. IN fact, all of the rules were considered, put to discussion between the diocese, the nuns who ran the school (the order), the alumnae, staff -- and yes, even students.

I theorized that while the education was comprehensive, girls wouldn't use birth control because of the culture (catholic), and that they would then seek abortions to avoid punishment. I was able to get multiple statements from students -- in person -- to give to the board that they had had abortions. I was shocked at the number in my year alone -- it was more than 10, and there were only 120 girls in our class. Other classes also had several abortions.

To a one, every girl said "I didn't want to not get to walk in graduation."

The rules were changed.

Girls who kept their babies (stayed pregnant) were allowed to attend school. It was quickly determined that getting pregnant was not glamorous -- and those girls were rather shunned. They experienced the public shaming that not allowing them to attend school (the fear being that pregnancy would be romanticized) was meant to accomplish but didn't. And, they were allowed to participate in every aspect of life except, ultimately, ONE -- which was walking in graduation.

While the rates of abortions in my class went down and pregnancies went up (by my senior year of high school, i knew of 7 pregnant girls in my class, and this is above the 10+ who had abortions, and there were several more who gave birth within months of graduation. You have to see that this was easily 1/6th or MORE of our graduating class, and several girls *still* had abortions to avoid the public shame and also the "not getting to walk in graduation."

I kept close notes of rumors, and gently spoke to girls -- telling them I was collecting information to allow the school to make a pro-life decision.

Ultimately, graduation was opened, but you couldn't be pregnant and showing during graduation. This still means that abortions occur so that a 17 yr old girl can do a stupid, meaningless ceremony. If she is likely to 'show' on June 5 or so, she aborts.

The numbers all around are well down. According to the school, our class was one of the "toughest classes to deal with." we were contentious, rebellious, and stubborn. No doubt, I was part of that problem, because my pro-life leanings were such that I didn't want to just 'Take a stand" against the laws back then, but at some people I realized that the legality DID NOT create a situation where abortiosn were not happening.

My process was many. One was changing the school culture so that girls kept their babies (some gave theirs up for adoption, some of those children are now graduating from high school themselves this year -- kept by their parents). Another was purchasing and handing out birth control. Girls felt like they couldn't go and buy condoms themselves, boys were not going to (another cultural thing), and I had no qualms about going into a drug store and spending my pocket money preventing pregnancies of others as best I could.

I also learned and taught fertility charting -- something not taught in schools -- to help girls understand. I had no way to access things like birth control pills or similar -- because those require prescriptions. I learned as much as I could about fertility charting and attempted to teach it to my friends and encourage them to use condoms and talk to their parents about getting pills, wires, or diaphragms.

While I never believed in using these forms myself (beyond charting), i felt that if a girl was going to be sexually active, it was VITAL that she was able to get what she needed. And I was more than willing to provide it. I ultimately connected with planned parenthood, and they gave me a lot of information about birth control and supplied me with condoms to pass out, so I no longer had to spend my spending money on it. I happened into the place just after a pro-life rally had taken place there.

I later left the pro-life movement because i felt that the movement was misguided. They are focusing their efforts in the wrong place. The right place to focus is not necessarily on mother support -- though that is important -- it's to focus on preventing pregnancy. Prevent unwanted pregnancy, you prevent abortions. Plain and simple.

To avoid that, you educate, you provide birth control, you change the culture so that people aren't going to choose to kill a baby so that they can walk in stupid, meaningless ceremonies, and you provide mother-support if it breaks through all of that.

When I went to university, another 12 girls got pregnant in their first year. I started to think they were doing it on purpose. Nearly all of these girls have kept their children. Being on FB is weird.

[catherine]

Zoebird,

Thank you for humanizing some of the issues by telling your story.

What I take away from it is people who don't want to get burned shouldn't play with matches. I don't have statistics on the sexual activity of teens/young adults now, but I have a feeling that it's pretty much an accepted practice, probably thanks in part to the media and movies. I agree with you completely on education and on changing the culture and on prevention of pregnancy--and I am idealistic enough to believe that abstinence is a good place to start.

In the old days, you weren't supposed to have sex before marriage. I'm sure that was breached often, but now anyone who is even trying to do that is considered a dinosaur. Marriage doesn't even happen for many people now until they are in their 30s, if ever, so there are no real social guidelines or barriers to having sex. My generation, I'm sad to say, really did a bang-up job on selling free love.

I asked my daughter once, if a girl is about 28, how many sex partners is she likely to have had? And she told me, 10. I have to say, little old product-of-Catholic-school me was shocked. Pregnancy, even with birth control, is often a numbers game. So, shouldn't we TRY to keep the shooting numbers low, if we want to reduce the incidence of abortion? Just try??

[Zoebird]

by the by, I admit that I was a very, very weird teenager.