Why O won and R lost?

[redfox]

I have been completely confused by this whole "stuff" thing. What I am hearing is that those who are struggling very much want the Federal government to enact policies that help get our economic, justice, and social services systems up & functional again. That to me is the proper role of government.

If "stuff" means a reasonable path to citizenship, I say yes. If "stuff" means marriage equality, I say yes. If "stuff" means affordable and accessible health care, I say yes. If "stuff" means a fair tax rates and ending the tax cuts for the wealthy, I say yes.

Since most of the country has plenty of "stuff", I suspect that this entire meme is rooted in the meanness of some R's who see the world through the lens of class bias, and judge poor people as lazy & underserving.

[iris lily]

...
Since most of the country has plenty of "stuff", I suspect that this entire meme is rooted in the meanness of some R's who see the world through the lens of class bias, and judge poor people as lazy & underserving.

I agree to a basic level of social support. The "stuff" that is being handed out goes way beyond that. Why in God's name are me and DH now exempt from having to pay a co-pay (a modest, what, $25) for a physical. WHY?????

I'll tell you why: to get votes. This is one of the many pieces of stuff contained in the Obamacare bill.

[JaneV2.0]

Here's an interesting map showing the election without women's suffrage. As always, I'm proud to live in the beautiful Pacific Northwest:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-suffrage.html

[redfox]

I agree to a basic level of social support. The "stuff" that is being handed out goes way beyond that. Why in God's name are me and DH now exempt from having to pay a co-pay (a modest, what, $25) for a physical. WHY????? I'll tell you why: to get votes. This is one of the many pieces of stuff contained in the Obamacare bill.

To get votes? Or perhaps because the President believes in the concept of affordable health care? By all means, if you think you exemption from paying a co-pay is odd, donate that amount each time you see your PCP to a low-income clinic.

[freein05]

I agree to a basic level of social support. The "stuff" that is being handed out goes way beyond that. Why in God's name are me and DH now exempt from having to pay a co-pay (a modest, what, $25) for a physical. WHY?????

I'll tell you why: to get votes. This is one of the many pieces of stuff contained in the Obamacare bill.

The free physical was not put in to get votes. As most doctors would tell you a annual physical can catch problems at an early stage and prevent far more costly treatments at a later date. It was put in to reduce health care costs and not for votes.

A side not on my physical. My doc is a pretty and young women so the physical got the old heart pumping.

[peggy]

And the part about 'free' stuff in Obamacare? That's a crock.
Everyone who can, will pay for health care. So, it isn't really free is it, if it is included in your health care insurance coverage. What some keep denying is the fact that Obamacare is largely a set of regulations for the insurance industry. Obscene profits while denying coverage to folks who have been paying in good faith all along is over. Denying coverage to people who were born with a condition, which may or may not affect their long term health, is over. Being tied to a job in order to find affordable health care coverage is over. This last, by the way, opens the door for entrepreneurs who up to now hesitated to go it alone because they could not afford coverage for them and their family as an independent business person. If that's the kind of 'stuff' they re talking about then, yeah, bring on that stuff. It is exactly why he was re-elected.

We are the government and the government is us. WE said we want our government to work this way. Obama is simply doing the will of the majority of the people, which is why he was hired, overwhelmingly. O'REilly believes that his position is the only right position, whether the majority agrees with it or not. He is wrong.

[peggy]

I forgot to include some criticism of the NZ system that is relevant.

The hope of these reforms was that Maori and poorer students would have more opportunity because the schools would be more competitive. Enrollments were generaly up in schools, but Maori received fewer places at their top-choice schools, and ended up in their second or their choices.

Likewise, the schools rely heavily on local resources -- both in fund raising and in terms of educational opportunities. Some schools, while able to receive funding from the government were in areas that there wasn't a broad enough base of wealth for adequate fund raising, and likewise, communities may also be too small to have other educational resources available to them.

For example, here in wealthy seatoun, our local school was donated a new roof by a local family's business. They also were gifted a new science center/wing/thing from another single-family business. They have weekly visits from all kinds of experts and specialists in many fields -- most of whom live in the community (whether or not their children attend the school).

In a smaller, more rural town, the resources may not be as diverse -- both financially and. . . in terms of the diversity of expertise. And this is a down-fall of this particular system, according to the research conducted.

Changes to the curriculum did create some positive innovations for these communities, but there are still schools that struggle with providing the education that they want for their students.

So, in the objective opinion of the leaders there, political, educational, etc...how is this working? Have the educational levels/standards/successes been raised?

[SteveinMN]

But sorry, I also think there's a ton of truth in it for many Obama supporters, certainly not all. Perhaps not even a majority of Obama voters--yet. It's not yet a majority who expect the "stuff." But it will be, the tide has turned and the tipping point is past, I think.

The "I want stuff" ship sailed long ago. You're on it. I'm on it. Bill O'Reilly is on it. Romney is on it. Obama is on it. Every American we know is on that ship and it left harbor a long time ago.

The discussion these days is what "stuff" we want for our tax dollars. There are direct costs for military preparedness, for maintaining highways, for addressing financial malfeasance and pollution, for offering Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid. Once those expenses are out of the government purse, there is less to spend on other things.

But Mitt Romney loves his 14% tax rate, and that is a government benefit, too, in that capital gains are not taxed at the same rate as earned income of similar size, so the government takes in less than it ordinarily would. The Bush tax cuts are a government benefit even if they don't show up in poor neighborhoods in major American cities. Donald Trump dangles his big office buildings in front of governments expecting some sort of break or special treatment for plopping that building in a particular jurisdiction. A farmer accepting payment from the government for not growing crops one year on some acreage is receiving a government benefit.

All of those benefits cost money just as much as directly paying a doctor to perform a "free" preventive-care physical. Unless one is Henry David Thoreau, living on one's own outside of some pond somewhere, you, too, are receiving government "stuff". It's just that some of us recognize that it's not a rich-person vs. poor-person thing.

[iris lily]

To get votes? Or perhaps because the President believes in the concept of affordable health care? By all means, if you think you exemption from paying a co-pay is odd, donate that amount each time you see your PCP to a low-income clinic.

Think? No. I KNOW is it odd and inappropriate as well as pandering to me, training me to expect goody handouts (i.e. "stuff") from Nanny G but the ridiculous thing is that I'm not remotely in need of it. Even though our household income is way way WAY below $250,000 I don't need that handout. I hate being treated as though I can't take care of myself. Hey Mr. Prez & your cronies in Congress, stop treating me in the one-size-fits-all under $250,000 group.

I for sure won't donate anything to a human health clinic, but maybe I'll make that donation to the neuter-spay clinic in my neighborhood. It serves the entire metro area. When we start neutering and spaying humans, THAT's when I've be making donation, large donations.

[iris lily]

The "I want stuff" ship sailed long ago. You're on it. I'm on it. Bill O'Reilly is on it. Romney is on it. Obama is on it. Every American we know is on that ship and it left harbor a long time ago....

Steve, I know. I can't even name all of the Federal gooberment handout programs that are insidious to my life. But the country is bankrupt. We have no more money. Stop it handing it out is what I'm saying. Just stop it.

Today DH and I pretty much decided to move over to the Libertarian side. We've been Ron Paul friendly for a long time. I think we'll be voting Libertarian in the future although probably not for local candidates, I've seen too many oddballs at the local or state level.