So you think you know the 2nd Amendment

[creaker]

That's actually a pretty interesting question creaker. I didn't immediately find any SCOTUS cases where someone was claiming 2nd Amendment violations because they couldn't buy a M198 Howitzer or other larger scale weapon. I'm also curious as to the exact limits and/or definitions.

I think it's an important point - are we arguing over the right to bear arms? Or over what arms we have the right to bear? Two very different questions because the first says the government has no right to interfere, but the second says the government does, and we're just arguing over the details.

[Spartana]

I think it's an important point - are we arguing over the right to bear arms? Or over what arms we have the right to bear? Two very different questions because the first says the government has no right to interfere, but the second says the government does, and we're just arguing over the details.

I see that there are three threads in these disscussions: The right to bear arms. What kinds of arms can we own. And Why do you need arms or specific types of arms anyways? It always gets confusing exactly what specific topic we are talking about when it comes to firearms.

As to the "what kinds" of firearms we have the right to bear, my understanding is that each state determines what type of firearms, ammo, and magazine capacity are allowed in that state, while the Feds overall can ban certain types of firearms for everyone (full auto and certain military arms like bombs and missiles, etc...) and the states must adhere to that. Certain states, like Calif, do not have an ammendment in their state consitution for the :right to bear arms" and there has been many law suits that have tried to use that lack of a state ammendment to ban ALL firearms (including hunting rifles and shotguns) from the private citizen. All failed as unconsitutional because Fed Cont. laws superseceeds state law.

[Tradd]

And I see you've bought out all the ammo too. I went to several Walmarts and gun stores to buy ammo for my twice monthly target practice and everything was gone. Almost completely bare shelves at all places (although the cool Zombie - and rat zombie, my favorite - targets were still there :-)!). I think that is because starting today, Calif (or maybe it's Fed) institutes a limit on buying ammo and the need to register to buy it.

Welcome to my world! ;-) It has to be a CA law, since I've not heard about it otherwise. In IL, you have to have a FOID card to buy ammo, let alone buy a gun or rent a gun at a range.

[bae]

As to the "what kinds" of firearms we have the right to bear, my understanding is that each state determines what type of firearms, ammo, and magazine capacity are allowed in that state, while the Feds overall can ban certain types of firearms for everyone (full auto and certain military arms like bombs and missiles, etc...)....

Be aware that ownership of full auto weapons and "destructive devices" has been *regulated* since 1934, but civilian ownership is *quite legal* and not too terribly troublesome. There have been approximately 0 crimes committed with these legally owned weapons since 1934, and there are *lots* of them out there.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...appendix-a.pdf

I own several very nice belt-fed weapons, and a 20mm cannon, for instance, and everyone all the way up the food chain is just OK with that.




The Federal government even shipped me directly, at a great price, pallets of armor-piercing ammunition for that Browning M1919.

So, might be worth looking into the actual laws, and statistics of ownership, before looking into "solutions". These typically aren't the sort of thing normal civilian owners use to knock over the corner liquor store.

[Spartana]

OK now you're just trying to make me jealous :-)! I still miss firing my full autos (M-16 and M60 and .50 cal) but the gosh dern feds wouldn't let me have them :-). Of course I needed my little gunner boy to fed the rounds and change out my barrel when it got overheated but they wouldn't let me keep him either!!

Thanks for the info and I'll read that article later but do know that people who previously owned some firearms before the various fed bans on both full and semi-autos were allowed to retain their firearms but wasn't aware of the rest. I just assumed they were all highly regulated and allowed only to certain people. I agree that most (none) of those kinds of arms are used in the commission of crimes in the USA. Especially not bombs - legally made and owned that is. Illegal or home made like in Ok. City and Atlanta are a different matter. Although when I lived in Europe I saw lots of bombed out places (many train, bus and subway storage facilities were permanently closed to prevent bombings and places to store bombs ) but those were from various seperatist groups not criminals for the most parts.

[bae]

OK now you're just trying to make me jealous :-)! I still miss firing my full autos (M-16 and M60 and .50 cal) but the gosh dern feds wouldn't let me have them :-).

I really like my M2HB, but it is too silly-expensive to feed, and Uncle Sam never sold off huge amounts of inexpensive ammo for it. Still, if the Canadians ever invade and attempt to force us to consume poutine, well, I stand ready to do my duty.

[Spartana]

I really like my M2HB, but it is too silly-expensive to feed, and Uncle Sam never sold off huge amounts of inexpensive ammo for it. Still, if the Canadians ever invade and attempt to force us to consume poutine, well, I stand ready to do my duty.

I'm not ure what poutine is but I am a closeted curling fan (go Canada National Curling Team!!) but I'd never admit that out loud :-)!

We had Browning M2's I think and then switched to something else but they are fun to shoot - as long as someone else is paying for the ammo! I can barely handle the cost of ammo on my current firearms (for example: 100 rounds of .357 for $50 at Walmart - shot off in a few minutes - YIKES) so anything full auto would be out of the question. But I pay the money (and whine about it) as I do feel as a firearms owner the need to practice at least once or twice a month on everything I own. But like Tradd pointed out, with greater restrictions on everything I imagine those costs will go up and availability will go down. Back in the day DH and I re-loaded our own but he got the reloading equipment in the divorce :-)!

[Spartana]

Welcome to my world! ;-) It has to be a CA law, since I've not heard about it otherwise. In IL, you have to have a FOID card to buy ammo, let alone buy a gun or rent a gun at a range.

Yeah Calif has some of the strictist gun laws in the nation but has been pretty laid back about ammo - with some restrictions as to type and amount but nothing prohibitive. Not sure what (or even if) this new law came into effect yet, or what it will require when in effect as it's been bantered around in various forms in court for a long time now. I personally don't mind some restrictions on large ammo purchases and tracking the amount purchased of those who buy or requirering them to register before making purchases, I just don't want to see any outright bans for the most part. In other words - Big Brother can watch but can't restrict without due cause.

[Alan]

OK now you're just trying to make me jealous :-)! I still miss firing my full autos (M-16 and M60 and .50 cal) but the gosh dern feds wouldn't let me have them :-). Of course I needed my little gunner boy to fed the rounds and change out my barrel when it got overheated but they wouldn't let me keep him either!!

Good luck finding a volunteer! I've still got a visible burn scar on my left forearm, the result of a too quick barrel change on an M60 back in the early 70's.

[Spartana]

Good luck finding a volunteer! I've still got a visible burn scar on my left forearm, the result of a too quick barrel change on an M60 back in the early 70's.

OUCH!!

Ha Ha! Yeah that would be a problem!! Anyone wanna sign up? You get the added "fun" of clearing jammed rounds as well as carrying the extra ammo, barrel, and tripod while getting a a bunch of red hot expended cartigages in the face at 1000/minute. Oh... and then you get to clean it afterwards :-)!