Good news Obamacare gets even better!

[Alan]

Alan, I don't quite see how this is an issue of liberty?
We all pay taxes to things we rather not support...is the Affordable Care Act in some way different?

Yes, it forces individuals to purchase a commercial product they may not want, and at levels they may not need. The additional burden of taxation based upon the absence of that purchase is assessed for the failure to engage in commerce, which sounds suspiciously like a punitive fine rather than a tax.

Using the ACA's individual mandate as precedent, I'd not be surprised to see future fines, disguised as taxes, for the failure to purchase a new car from GM or perhaps a life insurance policy designed to supplement SS Survivor benefits.

It is an issue of liberty because at its core, liberty is unobstructed action, or inaction, according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. Individual will has been taken out of the equation. Without the benefit of free will or conscience, how can there be liberty?

[Gardenarian]

Yes, it forces individuals to purchase a commercial product they may not want, and at levels they may not need. The additional burden of taxation based upon the absence of that purchase is assessed for the failure to engage in commerce, which sounds suspiciously like a fine rather than a tax.

Thank you, that clarifies things for me, and does make sense.
I have been looking at it from the rather narrow point of view that "Hey, it's good for ME!" (and a lot of other people I know) but of course that doesn't make it a good thing on a larger scale.

Food for thought.

Which is not to say that I think government health care is bad; I do think a universal, national health care system would be more equitable.

[peggy]

Yes, it forces individuals to purchase a commercial product they may not want, and at levels they may not need. The additional burden of taxation based upon the absence of that purchase is assessed for the failure to engage in commerce, which sounds suspiciously like a punitive fine rather than a tax.

Using the ACA's individual mandate as precedent, I'd not be surprised to see future fines, disguised as taxes, for the failure to purchase a new car from GM or perhaps a life insurance policy designed to supplement SS Survivor benefits.

It is an issue of liberty because at its core, liberty is unobstructed action, or inaction, according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. Individual will has been taken out of the equation. Without the benefit of free will or conscience, how can there be liberty?

This is an old argument, and not a very good one. And the more successful the ACA gets, the sillier it gets...but, hey, I certainly hope the GOP refuses to put the brakes on their meme and keep on running on this, cause, pretty soon it will only be you, ditto heads and some old, easily confused folks voting for them. But I don't even have to worry about the old folks cause the GOP is working real hard to disenfranchise their vote too.

This is no more about liberty than that nut job trespasser in Nevada is about liberty. Maybe I don't want to buy car insurance, but I would sure get in trouble if I didn't. Or buy food for my kids, but DFS would take them away and probably throw me in jail if I didn't. And if I refuse to vaccinate my dog and buy tags, I could get fined. There are a lot of things we do that maybe we don't believe in, taxes we pay to support things we don't want to, but we do it. It's called LIVING IN A COMMUNITY IN A CIVILIZED SOCIETY. Not everything we do is for me me me. We do things, sometimes, that may not benefit ourselves directly, but again, it's that community thing. Because what benefits our community benefits us. And what benefits your community benefits me, ultimately, cause we all pay for those who are not insured, but who need medical care, sometimes quite expensive medical care. And we ALL will eventually need it. Or our kids and/or our parents, siblings, friends, everyone.

I know one argument is that not everyone drives so driving is a privilege and insurance is a part of that privilege. This is true. Just as true as living in the US is a privilege, which includes medical care, when you need it, even if you don't have a dime to your name and require $100,000 worth of care. Paying insurance is just a part of that privilege. You don't have to drive, and you don't have to live here. See, you do have a choice. You are at LIBERTY to find the country that speaks to your ideals of freedom. I think Somalia is nice this time of year. and probably the only country with all the libertarian ideals such as no government involvement, no SS, medicare, gun regulations, environmental regulations, actually any regulations that protect the people, programs for the poor, etc....It's mob rule (kind of like in Nevada right now) so be sure to arm yourself heavily, cause, the biggest gun wins.

But again, I hope the right keeps on with this rhetoric cause it speaks volumes about their character and ideals, and *hint* it ain't liberty or freedom that people see. What folks are finally seeing is petty, narrow minded meanness and a void where the spirit of The UNITED in The United States should dwell.

[Alan]

This is an old argument, and not a very good one.

Yes it is old, it's been around for centuries but it is actually quite good. After all, it is the basis of the longest lived Constitutional Republic in history.

I know one argument is that not everyone drives so driving is a privilege and insurance is a part of that privilege.

Driving is not a privilege, driving on public roads is a privilege, one that requires proof of financial responsibility for damage you may cause while exercising that privilege. Notice that government does not require you to show financial responsibility for yourself, but for those you may harm. Comparing that to ACA's individual mandate is like comparing apples to whatever is not an apple.

But again, I hope the right keeps on with this rhetoric cause it speaks volumes about their character and ideals, and *hint* it ain't liberty or freedom that people see. What folks are finally seeing is petty, narrow minded meanness and a void where the spirit of The UNITED in The United States should dwell.

It's been my experience that people see what they want to see, even when it's at odds with reality. Well, then there's always the possiblity of hallucinations.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well one of the few weapons we have against corporations is to boycott them. Now boycotting health insurance may be as futile as boycotting gasoline in most cases (ie doesn't work in *this* society). But I'd hate to have to buy something in a case where boycotting could matter (yes, I know, they'd probably just get bailed anyway). We have very few ways to actually express our voice as is.

[bae]

"“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” James Madison

But anyways, thanks for the free health care this year Alan! That's about $15k/year saved out-of-pocket for my household, I just want you to know we're putting it to good use, and we appreciate all your hard work!

[Alan]

"“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” James Madison

That was so 18th Century. Re-distribution is the future baby!! "From each according to one's abilities, to each according to one's needs."

[Lainey]

If it was really about "liberty" then these same Tea Party types should have rioted when the Patriot Act was passed. Or when it was renewed. Or when the revelations came out about the NSA spying on U.S. citizens.

That's Liberty with a capital L. Instead, nothing but the sound of silence .. That's why no one is buying the liberty argument in regards to health care.

[bae]

I believed I complained loudly about all of those events, Lainey, but I like coffee more than Tea.

[Lainey]

Agree that there was some mild protest, but that was the minority. In contrast, the GOP's non-stop hysteria about the ACA and "freedom" is way disproportionate to plenty of federal goings-on that they should genuinely be upset about. If only they would re-direct their ire.