Baltimorei

[Yossarian]

Please look at the recent events in North Charleston, SC, as an example. Would you not agree in that case there was a problem, that the police officer involved went too far? North Charleston is not an event in a vacuum.

Yes and no. I think we have all agreed that the individual acts of the officer are probably a problem, but the overall system seems to be working OK. The guy was fired and charged with murder. Not sure what else you want them to do at this point.

Here's the funny thing about the violent protests you like- people see the craziness in Baltimore, and maybe rather than thinking "wow, those poor people are really upset, we have to do something to help them" there are probably just as many who think "OMG, those people are animals, we really need to support the cops who are putting themselves at risk dealing with those thugs."

Which in turn probably shapes perceptions of how justified the police are when they have to resort to force. A lot of folks are likely to decide it's a valuable thin blue line, or at worst just the lesser of two evils.

You can rah rah and cheer for America all you want - I think it's great that someone is still doing it, in a way - but this incident in South Carolina is not isolated and unusual.

I don't see any rah-rah-ing, just don't share your dystopian ideals. I would not want someone as a neighbor who refused to help in a crisis, would not engage with public services, and constantly denigrated the people who are doing a hard and dangerous job for crap wages. People need to obey the rules and no one is above the law so if the guy in SC is guilty let's see if he gets punished. But I don't see it as a reason to gleefully undermine the guys who are doing a good job.

[catherine]

I was just reading a Wikipedia article concerning the series of Race Riots Of 1919, something I had never heard of before. According to the article, the riots were instigated by whites, as part of a backlash against black laborers who had emigrated into cities to fill manufacturing jobs created by the War effort(WWI). After the war, returning veterans and the general public expressed great resentment toward these black workers. This resulted in much violence, and numerous lynchings. I will report back, when I learn more about this very troubled time in American history. Also, more than a month ago, I posted on Facebook a youtube video entitled: Kala U-Bass Richard Coughlin plays Whats Going On. Something like that. Anyway, a bass ukulele overdub of Marvin Gaye's classic song, from 1971. I'm not much for lyrics, but they are as relevant as ever, in this one. Beats the hxck out of stoopid, trite overwrought stuff like "Lady Madonna". OTOH, maybe not. Check it out. It is unfortunate that Marvin Gaye's father shot him to death in a 1984 family dispute. Pretty crazy. Makes me wonder: what's goin' on?

You got me there, Packy. Just read the What's Going On lyrics, and they do beat the heck out of Lady Madonna's lyrics. Very relevant for today indeed.

[Gregg]

I'm not sure there's a clearer picture of our victim mentality than prison. It fascinates me that someone would view it, first and foremost, as a rehabilitation mechanism. I always viewed it as a way to protect the rest of us from criminals who hurt someone at least once and are (statistically) likely to do it again. If they find their religion while they're locked up, great. I'm happy for them. If not, I don't care. I want the rapist kept away from my daughters and the banksters kept away from my mom's IRA. We can obviously expound on that second part in a different 12 page thread, but... The part of the criminal justice system that's broken isn't the <1% of the cops that step over the edge, its the courts that send a kid dealing a dime bag away for years while a crooked fund manager who bilked billions out of retirement accounts gets to work on his short game in Florida. If that. I will grant Rob that there are some disturbing trends in law enforcement, mainly the militarization of municipal police forces, but overall a few broken cops doesn't equate to a broken system.

[CathyA]

This comment is about the prison system.....not the Baltimore issue........

Seems like DNA evidence has let us be so much more certain of someone's guilt or innocence concerning the crimes involved. I know a lot of you don't believe in the death penalty. I guess you think it's too "civilized" or "inhumane". I tend to liken violent criminals to cancers. Why would we give cancers rights, or feel humane towards them, when they are trying to kill off the host? Why spend the energy of the healthy defense mechanisms of the body, to keep them at bay, or housed in some corner of the body? There are lots of reasons that keep our prisons filled, but don't you think we could empty some of them out by getting rid of the cancers and not just tolerating them and caring for them? I think keeping them alive in prisons weakens the society's Immune system (so to speak). We have to face up to the fact that all our tolerance and niceness is leading us down a very scary path. We are putting the health of our societal body at risk. And I'm referring to all the crime in America today, not just about the death penalty, but how we handle crimes (or not).

[Lainey]

I'm referring to the outrage on this same forum about the Occupy movement. Remember? Seems many posters here were very upset about some sleeping bags and tents left behind in Zuccotti Park, but the level of outrage expressed about the Wall Street thieves? Eh, not so much. Selective outrage. Strange.

and CathyA - "niceness" is not a word I'd use to describe our criminal justice system.

[CathyA]

Lainey......by niceness, I was referring to alot of people's feelings towards the death penalty. It's easy to feel like you wouldn't want to hurt anyone, when you don't have to deal with the carnage/heinousness/brutality/sickness of the offenders.

[Tammy]

For what it's worth, I've been an RN for 18 years, 15 of them in psychiatric nursing. There's a lot of overlap between psych and criminal justice. I've worked in a ~500 bed regional jail. I've worked in a facility for court ordered mentally ill, some of whom have rape and murder histories. I've had profane threats yelled in my face numerous times. No I don't like it. However - I'm still against the death penalty.

[JaneV2.0]

We have arguably the most punitive, least rehabilitative prison system of all the developed countries, and we have the highest incarceration rate. Our approach doesn't seem to be working. Capital punishment is forever; mistakes once made cannot be corrected (see the Innocence Project).

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._world_map.svg

[Yossarian]

Prosecutor announced murder charges this morning. Hard to evaluate with so little facts made public but looks like we will get another public trial.

[Gregg]

I used to support the death penalty and now I don't. There are a couple reasons...

1. The process is too politicized and too inconsistent. Death penalty cases are brought mostly in jurisdictions that can afford multi-million dollar trials and have a supply of prosecutors and defenders (public and otherwise) seeking notoriety from high profile cases. Commit the same crime in an area with less resources and less media coverage and you would likely face a plea bargain rather than death.

2. There is too much potential for discrepancy between beyond a reasonable doubt and beyond any doubt. If the punishment is to be absolute the conviction better be as well, but in most cases that isn't possible. DNA evidence is a wonderful tool for helping bridge that gap, but its not foolproof. Or tamper proof.

3. As much as I feel there are people who's crimes are so heinous that they deserve to die, I don't believe that an eye for an eye really evens the score. IMO, that response does more to bring those rendering judgment down to the criminal level than it does to keep them on that precious high moral ground.

4. As convenient as it is to view criminals as a cancer, they're not. Cancer cells aren't sentient beings. Enough said.