Baltimorei

[LDAHL]

Interesting, that's exactly the issue that was going through my mind. You make it a foundational premise that there will always be a human element fighting blindly for control of everything within its potential grasp, even if winning that battle means destroying what is being grabbed in the process, like a dog snapping at soap bubbles. Are we really that stupid?

I mean ... that's rhetorical, it appears that we are. But is there no way to get beyond it?

Perhaps to become so technologically advanced and materially unconstrained that the rewards for aggression become so trivial relative to the risk that we abandon it as a tool.

[Gregg]

Perhaps to become so technologically advanced and materially unconstrained that the rewards for aggression become so trivial relative to the risk that we abandon it as a tool.

Beam me up, Scotty.

[LDAHL]

Beam me up, Scotty.

I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.

[kib]

Perhaps capitalism started out as value neutral, but it's become a value in and of itself. Which is enormously problematic for any sort of solution to the problems it's creating. Sort of like, "I'm forming a religion so I can worship God" (which might or might not be a good or reasonable idea but the religion part is value neutral), devolving into "I will worship God because my religion says I should", at which point the religion and not the worship has become the central imperative.

We will create capitalism because it's a means of acquiring what we need, vs we will acquire more stuff because capitalism says we should.

[LDAHL]

We acquire more stuff because we want more stuff. You don't need to create a monster called Capitalism to explain human greed.

I don't see capitalism as a doctrine so much as a method of arranging an economy. Danes practice capitalism, as do Americans. Danes elect to redistribute somewhat more of the wealth produced thereby than Americans because of the relative positions the two societies occupy on the equality vs. freedom spectrum. Both countries are richer because they rely on price signals rather than a bureaucratic command economy. What they do with that wealth is more determined by the broader culture.

[kib]

We acquire more stuff because we want more stuff. You don't need to create a monster called Capitalism to explain human greed.

Ooooh ... but WHY do you think we want more stuff! We may be designed for a certain amount of survival-based acquisitiveness that morphs easily into greed, but we want more stuff - as in new and improved, different, special, bigger, smoother, knobbier, shinier, fancier, faster, louder, quieter, longer, shorter, red this year green next year different new stuff - in very large part because the thing capitalism is most invested in manufacturing is Want.

Our other human drive, typically, is caution about new things and comfort with the old ways and familiar items. No way did this belief in the joys of change for change's sake originate organically.

[LDAHL]

Ooooh ... but WHY do you think we want more stuff! We may be designed for a certain amount of survival-based acquisitiveness that morphs easily into greed, but we want more stuff - as in new and improved, different, special, bigger, smoother, knobbier, shinier, fancier, faster, louder, quieter, longer, shorter, red this year green next year different new stuff - in very large part because the thing capitalism is most invested in manufacturing is Want.

Our other human drive, typically, is caution about new things and comfort with the old ways and familiar items. No way did this belief in the joys of change for change's sake originate organically.

There are many reasons we want more, both noble and ignoble. Stockpiling for a rainy day (or deluge). Status anxiety. Philanthropy. The desire to leave a legacy to loved ones. Monument-building. Boredom. The love of competition scored in dollars. The joy of collecting. the need to attract mates. Financing the freedom to pursue whatever your idea of the good life happens to be. Insecurity.

There was never a prelapsarian Eden where noble savages scorned filthy lucre until Adam Smith slithered in. Madison Avenue may help the less imaginative among us put our wants in concrete form. Whole industries may exist to provide us with what we think we want. But blaming capitalism for wanting things is like blaming the wheel for taking us to bad places.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think the burden of proof is on those who believe money is spent right and left by corporations etc and buys ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.


-We are told money is spent on advertising but it doesn't actually persuade anyone (I don't think it's a clear cut relationship, but nonetheless I think the burden is proof is on those who think the money buys nothing).

- We are told money is spent on politicians (bribes otherwise known as campaign finance) but supposedly it doesn't buy anything or what it buys doesn't really matter, influence that doesn't really change anything. Corporations etc. just like wasting their money on political campaigns, anything else is conspiracy theory.

- Money is spent on the military industrial complex to an extent that outspends the entire rest of the world, but we are told it buys nothing, merely defensive, etc..

Now the common sense assumption is: that money is buying something!!! An assumption that money is always spent efficiently is way overstated (this society is really not that efficient even economically), but really all this money spent and doesn't buy anything at all? Oh really? How exactly does such a counterintuitive assumption become commonplace?

[kib]

+1 ANM.

"Blaming capitalism for wanting things is like blaming the wheel for taking us to bad places."

I actually love the verbal snap of that sentence, but I don't entirely agree with it. Modern day capitalism isn't a blameless wheel, it's a living organism already so much larger than we are, with many human traits and tendencies like greed and defensiveness, deceitfulness and self preservation, but no conscience, that survives by growing in a never ending cycle of get bigger, need more, get bigger, need more. It will stop at nothing to make sure we all participate, including unbelievable amounts of psychological manipulation to feel good /proud / safe if we buy in and bad / scared / deprived if we don't, which we as a society reflect and whisper to each other with rather blank and shiny eyes.

And I'd say have at it, we should all live in the Matrix if that's what we'd like, except that the red pill doesn't allow one to become some non-destructive sleeping beauty. More like a sleepwalking giant who's eating the planet alive.

[bae]

The main problem I have with our current form of capitalism is the lack of accountability.

I'm not too concerned about the Soros and Koch effects. I'm concerned more about the mindless and vastly huge sums of capital that are responsible to the morals of no one individual, but instead are managed purely for return and are several layers removed from human responsibility. Creatures like the CalSTRS and CalPERs pension funds ($189 billion and $279 billion in managed assets, compare to Soros at $24 billion...). It's like Skynet, but for money.