Sustainability & Political/Economic Systems

[catherine]

We've been having a lively debate in the sorely hijacked Baltimore thread, so flowerseverywhere suggested we redirect the conversation.

I think the fork in the road was probably kib's post on the meaning of and need for "tribes," back on page 25:


http://www.simplelivingforum.net/sho...timorei/page25

Take a look at that post, and then maybe the last two pages and then maybe we can continue the questions:

1) what is a relevant definition of a tribe, for modern use?
2) what economic/political system is most conducive to a) sustainability, b) the nature of human beings and c) a hopeful future?
3) what is the roadmap for a sustainable future? Should there be a roadmap at all? Is it Daniel Quinn's New Tribal Ventures? Is it the anarcho-primitivism of Derrick Jensen? Is it the Natural Step? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Natural_Step? Joanna Macy's The Great Turning?
4) what do you envision/imagine the future to be? Is it something we can try? What is keeping us from trying? Or do you have faith that we'll get there without a "revolution"?

Any other questions?

Discuss amongst yourselves. I have a report due today, and I'll catch up later.

[kib]

Thank you for setting up a new thread, Catherine. I am still exploring The Natural Step in my free moments today, so not quite ready for a gab. Hopefully others will take the conversation over here.

[bae]

Is it the Natural Step? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Natural_Step?

I've always thought this is a superb approach. As an engineer/scientist/mathematician it has great appeal, as it lays out the system conditions that seem likely to allow a long-enduring culture to survive. You can of course argue about the particular conditions, but I think the overall approach of laying out the guidelines is very productive, and to me seems one of the few ways to avoid collapse, die-off, or some of the other bad paths.

You can't have honest conversations about these ideas these days with most people though - they rathole into flinging thought-terminating clichés back-and-forth, demonize each other, and make no progress. Meanwhile, time marches on....

Good luck back over there on the mainland.

[kib]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFCNCQleCuk

Marvelously simple 2 minute presentation on what The Natural Step is all about.

I think if you wait for the next video to load, it starts a several part presentation that's more in depth and also more practical. If it doesn't and you're interested, this is the next one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beidaN3SNdA

[razz]

The natural step is a valiant effort towards a new perception of earth and our relationship to it.
Perhaps I am being too idealistic but until each person has a sense of his/her own genuine worth as an agent for change, it will be an uphill struggle. Not saying that efforts should not be made but a realistic assessment of the initial outcome indicates that it will be limited.

Tribalism, to refer back to the original thread, is possible in every community but the strong sense of individualism has to yield to some degree to the idea of a 'commons'.

[Gardenarian]

There are many smart ideas on sustainability here, but the problem I see is that people, governments, and corporations will have to voluntarily make these dramatic changes.
I don't think that is a viable possibility.

How do tribes, or clans, differ from cliques?

[kib]

I think that change is possible. Maybe not "overhauling the human psyche" as LDahl puts it, but incremental change that starts "at home". In my lifetime, or maybe that plus 20 years, the idea of two same sex people (or even two unmarried people of opposite sexes) sharing a life and a bed has gone from unspeakably shameful to a reasonably matter of fact topic of conversation. Maybe not acceptable to everyone, but for what seems to be the majority of the population. So it starts with reusable shopping bags and hybrid cars, and maybe the ball keeps rolling.

I like the natural step because it doesn't demonize business concerns, it just puts them into a larger framework of awareness. It tries to give people with different concerns a shared goal - backcasting from the idea that we all want a sustainable future.

[bae]

One of the things I like about the Natural Step is that many of the system conditions are based on not allowing externalities to be foisted off on the commons, or on the future. If a government has any legitimate powers, regulating externalities seems like it should be one of them.

So, no indigo-children great spiritual awakening needed to get going, just start out seriously requiring externalities to be handled properly.

[kib]

[ApatheticNoMore]

Maybe things like arguing a great spiritual awakening is needed are appealing because the government seems out of our hands (among other reasons). I mean yes good government would do a lot of good, of course. We can't seem to get it. Of course I am not happy about that situation. So maybe there is an attempt to route around the dam, route around the damage, route around the fact our government sucks and seem unaccountable. The power of the people outside of formal power structures. And yes I know the extreme of the spiritual awakening stuff is extreme. Maybe just a change of thoughts and behavior in many people, and your back to mere psychology. Still might be better if we could get any type of formal movement, even if it was just strategic coordinated boycotts of corporations whose crimes to the environment are great.

I really do see things like Fast Track and the TPP as critical, it's the line in the sand. Having given up on government at higher levels (because it all seems bought and sold etc.), often people attempt to improve things by changing local laws, this might very well include requiring externalities to be handled properly. But now they want to take even that power away. The TPP can challenge local laws and national laws like the Clean Air Act by corporate tribunals, the very laws that provide some protection from externalities. Could things get any worse? Fight this thing to the death! Of course reality often pails in comparison to rhetoric and my "fighting to the death" is contacting both Senators and a Rep via their websites, and calling them all once as well about Fast Track (yes before it passed the Senate). I'll call the Rep again as it's not yet passed the House. And sure I'll do all that again for the TPP bill itself and other similar trade bills but it's just the minimum people should be doing really.