Prayapolooza in Houston

[peggy]

So, if I wanted to marry my sister or perhaps my neighbors wife, that would be the same thing wouldn't it? Not allowing me to do so would be a violation of my "rights" since my neighbor had the right to marry his wife and virtually every other male on the planet would enjoy the right to marry my sister.

Granted, I don't actually want to do either of those things, but if I did, are my "rights" actually being violated? And would I be correct in labeling anyone who disagreed with me as a "hater" or a "hate group"? I'm just trying to understand this whole argument of "rights".

Oh Alan, really? Are you really going to trot out the 'ol "if we let women vote then we have to let dogs and cats vote"? It's the goofiest argument ever. It's really NOT a slippery slope from affording gays all the rights 'we' enjoy to incest, harems, or life as we know it ending. Your hair won't fall out (or grow on your palm), daughters won't marry fathers, and unfortunately your neighbor won't stop beating his wife.

Are you worried about the sanctity of marriage? Ok, well then, lets out law divorce. Cause that is what is destroying families, not Steve and Dave holding hands down the road.

You keep saying you are non religious. So why do you care? All the arguments are religious based.

[Alan]

Oh Alan, really? Are you really going to trot out the 'ol "if we let women vote then we have to let dogs and cats vote"? It's the goofiest argument ever. It's really NOT a slippery slope from affording gays all the rights 'we' enjoy to incest, harems, or life as we know it ending. Your hair won't fall out (or grow on your palm), daughters won't marry fathers, and unfortunately your neighbor won't stop beating his wife.

Are you worried about the sanctity of marriage? Ok, well then, lets out law divorce. Cause that is what is destroying families, not Steve and Dave holding hands down the road.

You keep saying you are non religious. So why do you care? All the arguments are religious based.

Unfortunately, I have no idea what you're talking about although I do find your last line interesting.

I can't speak for all the arguments as I'm not sure what they may all be, but the one I keep seeing here and elsewhere has to do with civil rights. I still don't understand that line of reasoning which, by the way, doesn't have any religious aspect to it at all. Perhaps you could explain?

[loosechickens]

In a word, Alan, just as the "Bible" was used as an excuse that it was o.k. to have slavery, just as the "Bible" was used as the reason why Jim Crow laws were perfectly all right to discriminate against African-Americans, the "Bible" is the source that is used to justify continued discrimination against gay and lesbian citizens. So, as in the other examples, it IS a civil rights issue, but the arguments that are used to continue the discrimination are usually religion based.

Catwoman: You said, "All of the things you have listed above can generally be handled through legal channels other than the proviso of marriage. Many heterosexual couples who choose not to marry face these issues and find ways to handle them legally. I'm going to step on a lot of toes here but I think this hysteria is caused by a few reasons: 1. Politicians see gays as a voting block hence creating issues where there are none to create a rallying cry and a venue for promises of rewards for votes. (Gay community is being shamelessly hustled and used by policiticans). 2. In a further effort to create a "minority" status for gays, politicians are exploiting gays and their issues. As far as I know gay people come in all colors, shapes and sizes. Sexual preference does not a minority make. If that were the case foot-fetishists could have their own minority status, etc. etc. "

Perhaps you are not intimately acquainted with a number of gay people, or do not have family members who are gay and meet with legal discrimination every day of their lives, as well as personal discrimination and bigotry. Those of us who do, and see the obstacles, discrimination and bigotry they face, often feel very differently.

It's really all over but the shouting, although full rights for gays will still take awhile. But at this point, for the first time in this country, a plurality of citizens believe gays should have the right to marry, a plurality of citizens believe that gays should serve in our military openly (as they have throughout our history, closeted), and a plurality of citizens believe that gay families can provide the same love and care to adopted kids as heterosexual couples or singles........the bigotry centers in an always smaller, but still very vocal minority. Such as the American Family Association under discussion.

AND, even when those people were in the majority, it didn't mean they were right. Before civil rights for African-Americans, if whether Jim Crow laws should be maintained had been put up for votes in the south, a huge majority would have voted to keep them.

[Catwoman]

My husband has two business partners who are gay as is his right arm, his admin. asst. They do quite well in society, church, business, etc. We consider them dear friends and routinely spend time together. I do not however, need to talk to them about what they do in the bedroom or their legal issues. The same as with any other people....You do gays a wrong when you set them up for pitfalls - expecting society to treat them one way when what is needed is just to focus on the real business at hand. That is EQUALITY.

The gnashing of teeth and moaning over gay rights is a manufactured talking point of the left - there always has to somebody the big bad Republicans are hurting...You let yourself be used by the democratic machine as does everyone else who keeps this issue front and center instead of letting EVERY American enjoy and compete under the right and priveledges we already have.

[loosechickens]

Perhaps if you DID talk to them, (if they would be honest with you, given your outlook and politics) about legal issues, rights that others enjoy that they do not, and discrimination they may have faced and still face, you might be very surprised.

I work, as a heterosexual person, toward full rights and nondiscrimination for gay people in honor of my uncle Jack, now deceased, a number of dear friends, children of dear friends and others. I don't believe the difficulties they face are some "manufactured issue", and until they enjoy the same rights as the rest of us, I'll continue to do so.

[Catwoman]

I believe it would diminish my friends if I pigeon-holed them as "gays"...They are X, Y, and Z my friends and business associates. We talk about travel, art, food, wine, etc. They do not ask me about my sexual habits nor I them. That is a level playing field. If you ask Joe Blow off the street about his legal issues and discrimiation you will get an earful from just about anybody. This is since time immemorial. Its time to put that to rest along with all the other manufactured special interets in this nation. They are vote-getting political mechanisms as well as "labels" which bring with them, in many cases, a push to "the front of the line" for goodies and handouts.

[creaker]

"You do gays a wrong when you set them up for pitfalls - expecting society to treat them one way when what is needed is just to focus on the real business at hand. That is EQUALITY. "

I agree with your words so much - it's amazing we attach such different meanings to them.

[peggy]

I believe it would diminish my friends if I pigeon-holed them as "gays"...They are X, Y, and Z my friends and business associates. We talk about travel, art, food, wine, etc. They do not ask me about my sexual habits nor I them. That is a level playing field. If you ask Joe Blow off the street about his legal issues and discrimiation you will get an earful from just about anybody. This is since time immemorial. Its time to put that to rest along with all the other manufactured special interets in this nation. They are vote-getting political mechanisms as well as "labels" which bring with them, in many cases, a push to "the front of the line" for goodies and handouts.

so, what you're saying is, if we don't talk about it, it doesn't exist? That gay people are perfectly happy, or should be, in the closet? I guess your friends have learned to just shut up and sit down when dining, and socializing with their "good friends".

Do you deny the republican party, and the AFA, is trying to deny full marriage rights to gay people? how is that equality?
Why should you be allowed to go from A to B, and the gay couple has to sidestep past XYZ before going to B, but then only if his lawyer has dotted the I's and crossed the T's. And this must be repeated for each and every 'right' they want that you enjoyed simply by getting married. Once.
Oh, and don't tell me about it cause I don't wanna hear cause ignorance is bliss.

You know, I'll bet they don't consider you as 'good' a friend to them as they are to you.

[Catwoman]

Peggy, you presume way too much. Please continue to be happy with all your preconceived notions - I relate to PEOPLE as people not the issue du jour. My politics and personal//religious beliefs are out there for everyone to see - You can twist the definitions to suit your causes

[Catwoman]

so, what you're saying is, if we don't talk about it, it doesn't exist? That gay people are perfectly happy, or should be, in the closet? I guess your friends have learned to just shut up and sit down when dining, and socializing with their "good friends".


Actually what I'm saying Peggy is, stop making an issue where there is none.