Expectations and demands and stepping away

[Teacher Terry]

Catherine, we are not living a lavish retirement either). At this point we don’t want to use our savings so living on 47 gross/year. Our food budget is 400 and it’s easily doable. Our biggest expense is HC between 9-12k/year. In 5 years when DH is 65 maybe it will go down. We go to $5 movies and happy hour food and drinks which are really cheap. I am the Queen of good deals. Our pets have been another big expense because we had 4 old dogs. Now we have 2 young ones. Money is the main reason we are down to 2.

[iris lilies]

I think the best financial gift one can give adult children is parental financial independence. If there is money left in an estate after we die, good for our kids! But if we give the money away, and then health problems dictate need, it is burdensome for kids to contribute before they really have to. And that causes problems between the siblings because some have more money than others to give toward parental support.

There has been more than one story on the Mr. Money Mustache website about parents who throw around money, only to be in need later due to health crises. It has nothing to do with blowing money on cruises and jewelry, it has to do with realistic assessment of two seniors entering the last stage of life where health issues are $$$.

Out of curiosity: catherine, would your DH qualify for a VA nursing home if it came to that?I know he is a veteran, but I also know there are limitations in the VA health system for who qualifies and for what services. And, the VA is notoriously poor (depends on the facility.)

Both DH and I were lucky because our parents had enough money to pay for all necessary healthcare in nursing homes AND ALSO leave a stash to their kids. My mother was in a nursing home for several years. That depleted her stash, but she died before it was all gone. DH’s father had enough money to pay a nursing home and still leave a big estate. Few have that luxury, but that is ok, just knowing we didnt have to chip in for end of life health care costs was a great thing.

I dont think it is realistic to assume out of two seniors, neither will need expensive health care services at some point.

[catherine]

My kids are financially independent. They all work at good jobs, and they never ask me for anything, even my son who doesn't have a car.

In terms of health care needs, my mother wound up in a nursing home and I was not responsible for anything. It's certainly a possibility that we'll be impoverished by health care issues, but it's not a certitude. And it's certainly not a given that my kids will have to pick up slack. DH can possibly qualify for VA healthcare but you are right--it depends on our household assets at that time.

What happened a hundred years ago?? Did people have to amass a million dollars to pay for end-of-life expenses? How much do you need to save? How many people in America today can save enough to pay for our ridiculous healthcare system? What happens in other countries today? I'm not anti-savings--but I am anti-assuming that everyone HAS to have a million dollars to get by in old age. My cavalier attitude towards my financial situation, and my desire to "die broke" is based on a rejection of a reality that is bogus. If I get dementia, please, just warehouse me in any Medicaid-eligible place and let me die. I am not going to live in fear that I'm f*cked if I don't have 1M dollars. I want to give my money away now, to help my children now, and that is my right.

[razz]

As lhamo's post suggested, not one of us is responsible for another's choice . You are absolutely correct that you have the right to make your own decisions and we do have the obligation to respect that right.
Wishing you well as always!

[SteveinMN]

The notion that one cannot retire unless one has a million dollars in assets is right up there with the DeBeers pricing guide for diamond rings: a really marketable idea but far too general to be actually useful. Yes, I know how they derived the number. But people adapt.

At my corporate job, lots of over-50s got caught up in "job elimination" layoffs. The company sweetened the offer with a bridge to Rule of 92, offered severance of $1,000 for each year of service, and assisted in post-employment medical coverage for a few years. Many people who left were not ready to retire in the traditional sense yet you knew they were too old to get hired anywhere else. But when you'd meet them for lunch or other retirements years after they left, they were doing okay in retirement even without a million in the bank.

DW's mom just moved to assisted living. She has a meager SS income and the survivor's benefit to the pension her husband left her. It's not a pile of money -- certainly not a million dollars -- but between that income and the proceeds of selling her place she'll be able to afford living there likely way longer than she'll live (she's 87).

Planning is smart. But postponing a comfortable life until some marketing-ordained goal has been reached? Not a good move IMHO.

[pinkytoe]

MIL is using up her stash paying around $8000 a month for pretty basic assisted living accommodations. Kind of looks like a cheap hotel that serves food service meals which are awful IMO. I assume costs will go way up when she goes to the next stage of care. No one expected her to live so long with so many health problems but she always says "sorry, kids...it's my money and I'm sticking around." And there is still her house to sell currently being rented to a relative if that money is needed.

[Teacher Terry]

There is actually a syndrome for people that have to give all their money away even to strangers if they don’t have family. My secretary had this.

[catherine]

There is actually a syndrome for people that have to give all their money away even to strangers if they don’t have family. My secretary had this.

Hmmm, so generosity is a DSM code. Not surprised. I'm sure there are lots of people who think St. Francis, Peace Pilgrim, and even Andrew Carnegie, who said "The man who dies rich dies disgraced" were nuts. As Krishnamurti said, “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” If we lived in culture in which people--not vast sums in 401k plans--were each other's safety nets we could probably eliminate some of the other DMS codes like depression and overeating. Our rugged individualism and rejection of community has not paid big dividends, IMHO.

[Gardnr]

Hmmm, so generosity is a DSM code. .

No, generosity is not a DSM. I think many of us are surprised because you've struggled a bit on expenses, you're working longer than originally intended...all discussions from the past few years. So yes, we're surprised you're giving away instead of saving.


Herein is the descriptions for the disorder:
Just about everyone has a complicated relationship with money. Studies show that money is the no. 1 reason for divorce in the early years of marriage and a common area of conflict for couples. Even before the recession, 3 out of 4 Americans identified money as the no. 1 source of stress in their lives. Financial strain has been found to reduce relationship satisfaction, worsen depression, and lead to emotional problems, health difficulties, and poor work performance. With record high debt and record low savings rates in the years leading up to the economic crisis, the average American seemed to suffer from a money disorder.
Money disorders are persistent patterns of self-destructive and self-limiting financial behaviors. They result from distorted beliefs about money we develop from our financial flashpoint experiences. Financial flashpoints are painful, distressing, and/or dramatic life events associated with money that are so emotionally powerful, they leave an imprint that lasts into adulthood. Financial flashpoints become the foundation of our financial struggles.
Whether it's a childhood of poverty or want, a message about money subconsciously internalized from a parent, a nest egg lost to an economic downturn later in life, or someone rushing in at the last moment to save the economic day, everyone has experienced a financial flashpoint in their lives. Recognizing them is the first step in stripping them of their power, and overcoming our money disorders. Then we can learn to identify our money beliefs, spot them when they are creeping into our minds, and revise them into healthier, more productive ones.

In Mind Over Money, we describe 3 categories of money disorders:

1. Money Avoidance Disorders (also includes Underspending and Excessive Risk Aversion):
Financial Denial: When, rather than face financial reality, we try to minimize money problems by refusing to think about them all together (e.g. avoiding looking at a bank statement or paying a credit card bill).
Financial Rejection: The experience of guilt whenever money, of any amount, is accrued. People with low self-esteem are particularly prone to this disorder, and it leads to a whole host of financial and psychological troubles.

2. Money-Worshipping Disorders (also includes Pathological Gambling, Workaholism, and Overspending):
Hoarding: When stockpiling objects or money provides a sense of safety, security, and relief of anxiety.
Compulsive Buying: Compulsive buying is overspending on steroids. Compulsive shoppers are consumed by their money worries. They often learned, early in life, that the ritual of shopping provides a temporary escape from worry and anxiety. When they think about and anticipate the pleasure they will feel when they shop, dopamine, a "feel good" chemical, floods their brains-only to wear off quickly, leaving them craving another fix.

3. Relational Money Disorders (also includes Financial Dependence and Financial Incest):

Financial Infidelity: Telling "little green lies" about one's spending or finances to one's partner, like making purchases outside an agreed-upon budget or lying about the cost of a big-ticket item. Extreme examples might include taking out a second mortgage behind your partner's back or opening a secret bank account.
Financial Enabling: Giving money to others whether you can afford it or not; giving when it is not in the other's long-term best interest; having trouble or finding it impossible to say no to requests for money; and/or even sacrificing one's own financial wellbeing for the sake of others. A common example is when parents support adult children who should be able to support themselves. Financial Enabling becomes increasingly common among family members in a down economy, when there is sense of guilt about less fortunate relatives.
The basics of financial health aren't complicated, and we are all capable of mastering them, no matter who we are, or our level of wealth. When we identify our financial flashpoint experiences, challenge our distorted money beliefs, and practice healthy financial behaviors (e.g. maintain reasonable and low debt, have an active savings plan, as well as following a spending plan), we don't just become materially richer-we become emotionally wealthier as well.

[iris lilies]

Oh we all have our demons with money! Thats for sure.But we arent pathological in those peculiarities.