Top 3 things that give your life meaning.

[Tybee]

That is so common in rural areas where we have lived, and we usually have two and sometimes three jobs because we are cobbling together. There are no "good" jobs with benefits readily available for us, for a variety of reasons, including disability and age. I have heard that Maine, where my son lives, is like Vermont that way, Catherine. Upstate NY was like that when we lived in the country there.

One reason I have two jobs now is that the same job I did when I was pregnant with my son, 38 years ago, paid 1900 then (adjunction a semester class at the the community college) and pays 1500 now (adjuncting at the community college.) So teaching at the college level, in real dollars, has been a disaster for just about everyone I know--add to that that now over half of all college courses are taught by non-tenured faculty and most often, adjuncts. Adjuncts usually cannot get health insurance through the job--I have never been able to, and have been teaching since 1979.

The lovely tenure track jobs that people tend to asociate with being a college professor--gone. According to insider.ed: "Between 2003 and 2013, the study finds, the share of faculty members who were off the tenure track increased from:

• 45 to 62 percent at public bachelor’s degree-granting institutions.
• 52 to 60 percent at private bachelor’s-granting colleges.
• 44 to 50 percent at public research universities.
• 80 to 83 percent at community colleges."

Anyway, I used to do retail with a PhD, along with teaching college, or as my ex husband used to mock me to the kids--"a PHD who folds towels for a living."

Folding towels paid health insurance, adjuncting does not. It bought groceries, braces and glasses for my kids, and gas for the car. Folding towels paid an $89,000 medical bill for me one year. A medical bill that had nothing to do with exercise or lifestyle and everything to do with genetics.

My husband has two jobs because he can't make it on 38,000 a year, which is what a full time college professor makes.

We have four jobs between us now and we are in our mid 60's.

Believe me, it was not what we expected when we were in our 20's-- or our 30's or 40's.

The world has changed for working people.

ETA: I am very grateful for both my jobs, and I am grateful to have the chance to work at my age. I am REALLY grateful my retail job paid out over $150,000 in hospital bills over the 5 years I worked there, and those were 20 years ago.

I actually really like working, and like my two jobs. And it was always very satisfying to be able to provide for my kids.

[catherine]

There was a time I had three jobs if we stretch the definition. My 40 hour a week job was at a regional jail, my part-time job was consulting 8 to 10 hours a week for an outpatient mental health center, and my side hustle was picking up shifts a few times a month at a local hospital. That was when we needed a lot of money for those expensive teenagers. At the same time my husband had 3 part time gigs which totaled about 50 hrs a week.

There was a time when we were raising three little kids on less than 20,000 a year and did not have health insurance. Our values dictated that we did not accept any public assistance in spite of our near poverty status. We could’ve had full insurance for free for all three children and 400 a month in food stamps. But for four years we didn’t accept any of that because of our values.

My values have since changed and I’m angry with my former self for not accepting some help so life could be easier for all of us. We were working and I was in college - it only would have lasted for 4 years but it sure would have helped. There were a few times we were down to two or three days worth of food in the house and almost no cash.

I had very similar experiences with our young family, and it's not easy. I have to say that I had a safety net--my MIL, who sometimes filled those terrifying gaps with no judgement although she herself would have met Jeppy's high bar of self-reliance (unless my MIL would be dinged for having her mother and father move in with her to help her when her husband died prematurely.)

My husband always says, "Everyone needs a little help sometimes" and he's right. Whether that help comes from family or the government, asking for help is not a personal failure. That's not easy for me to say--I hate asking for help. I want to know I can do it all myself. But that's not true.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Wow this thread has devolved in not all that interesting ways. Oh well carry on I guess.

The UL loan issue getting old though, he's paying his loans. I don't get living one's values from this, I get a need to demonstrate superiority.

And over what, aren't their bigger problems in the world, than someone defaulting on their student loans, which isn't even the case here anyway! And aren't there more important values to demonstrate in times like these than ability to pay one's loans? If you never feel the call to greater moral responsibility than that at all, in a world that needs so much, I can't help you. And I never pretend to be particularly good, but I reckon with it.

And let's get this straight politically I DON'T support universal debt forgiveness, or forgiveness of student loans (I do support the ability to declare bankruptcy on them). However there is a larger argument for this than just who gets ahead unfairly (and some might), like all debts have grown to unpayable at this point maybe ... on a society wide level so it's not even about "poor poor debtors", who often aren't all that poor, but whether its' all payable at all on a society wide level.

And you'd be surprised at how much of the debt people carry is medical debt, if ever there was a debt to forgive, people get sick, and no it's not it's not their fault in most cases (so stuff it with healthy diet and lifestyle, that's all good, but that doesn't explain why middle age people end up with medical debt usually). Medical debt first.

[LDAHL]

I wonder if it isn’t time to reconsider whether our educational service delivery systems are serving us as well as they could. Is the four year degree still a reasonable outcome, or is it just a sort of obsolete vocational credential or status marker or means of extending childhood?

Are there better ways to build, measure and document educational attainment? Are effective scholars necessarily the most effective teachers? Are elite schools necessarily the best schools, or are are they simply a sort of barrier to entry?

Should we subsidize gender studies but not plumbing studies? Are some areas of study more in the public interest than others? Can’t professional qualifications be established through exams and certifications? Can we accept education obtained over the internet as well as that obtained in lecture halls?

[LDAHL]

And aren't there more important values to demonstrate in times like these than ability to pay one's loans?

Not if you’re the lender.

[Tybee]

I wonder if it isn’t time to reconsider whether our educational service delivery systems are serving us as well as they could. Is the four year degree still a reasonable outcome, or is it just a sort of obsolete vocational credential or status marker or means of extending childhood?

Are there better ways to build, measure and document educational attainment? Are effective scholars necessarily the most effective teachers? Are elite schools necessarily the best schools, or are are they simply a sort of barrier to entry?

Should we subsidize gender studies but not plumbing studies? Are some areas of study more in the public interest than others? Can’t professional qualifications be established through exams and certifications? Can we accept education obtained over the internet as well as that obtained in lecture halls?

These are really good questions.

[JaneV2.0]

I wonder if it isn’t time to reconsider whether our educational service delivery systems are serving us as well as they could. Is the four year degree still a reasonable outcome, or is it just a sort of obsolete vocational credential or status marker or means of extending childhood?

Are there better ways to build, measure and document educational attainment? Are effective scholars necessarily the most effective teachers? Are elite schools necessarily the best schools, or are are they simply a sort of barrier to entry?

Should we subsidize gender studies but not plumbing studies? Are some areas of study more in the public interest than others? Can’t professional qualifications be established through exams and certifications? Can we accept education obtained over the internet as well as that obtained in lecture halls?

I couldn't agree more. We need more tradespeople, and a solid apprenticeship structure.

All this wrangling about college loans is probably moot--only about one percent of such are forgiven, if news reports are accurate.

[LDAHL]

I couldn't agree more. We need more tradespeople, and a solid apprenticeship structure.

You know we have an imbalance when it’s easier to find a cardiologist than a finish carpenter.

[LDAHL]

These are really good questions.

I don’t have any decent alternatives, but the current system seems to be based on a medieval organizational platform with elements of the hospitality and consumer finance industries bolted on, and staffed largely through a sort of piece work arrangement.

Maybe we should turn the whole thing over to Amazon or Uber to figure out.

[Tybee]

I don’t have any decent alternatives, but the current system seems to be based on a medieval organizational platform with elements of the hospitality and consumer finance industries bolted on, and staffed largely through a sort of piece work arrangement.

Very true, especially the hospitality industry and consumer finance industries!! You should see the townhouse dorms the upstate NY college I worked at was putting in back in 2008. They were real townhouses, gorgeous. And way beyond what anyone in the community could afford to live in, and they were being transplanted into this rural community to attract students from NYC (I think!)

Lots of development aimed at getting international students, because they could pay the freight.