Phew! I do need to do some more reading. It just seems like if everyone wants two states, why not now? Yes, there would have to be some give but wouldn't it be worth it, to just do it and get it over with? I do thank you all for your thoughtful replies.
Not a lot of choices, are there? IMO the US should never back a Palestinian state, but then (also IMO) the US should have never backed Israel to the extent we have. I've gotten to the point of wishing we'd just let all the other peoples of the world settle their own differences without our "help". Keep the humanitarian efforts, but lets quit playing referee/cop/marriage counselor to the world. We have enough things at home that need our attention.Originally Posted by Iris lily
I can't help but wonder whether the US can claim financial hardship and significantly cut back on the armaments that we provide to Israel and then see what happens.
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
Well, it looks like one reason that Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state in the UN is that it would allow the Palestinians to bring Israel to the World Court. But I still don't see why the U.S. doesn't; maybe it's in our interest for them to keep squabbling.
If you cut through the b.s. and the rhetoric, it comes down to this: There is nothing about either the Jews or the Palestinians that is fundamentally different from any other group of people. Most people just want to live in peace, most people love their families, most people just want the ability to go about their business with a sense of relative security. That is true of most Jews and most Arabs.
That is what should underlie any approach to the peace process. When political leaders foment hatred between groups, they have other goals that do not serve the people they claim to lead. Neither side in this case is operating fully in good faith.
Here's my take on Netanyahu's agenda: The divisions in Israeli society are very serious. The ultra religious are quite inflexible about their standards and have a great deal of control over things like marriage and who is deemed Jewish enough to fall under the law of return. There are economic divisions, racial divisions (Ethiopian Jews have faced rampant discrimination), there are cultural divisions and having a common enemy has served to keep Israel from social implosion from all of these conflicts. It is difficult to maintain political coalitions if everyone's on a different page. I read one Israeli pundit who claimed that Israel had been on the verge of a bitter civil war before the Intifada started. The Intifada shifted attention away from internal issues and unified Israelis against a common enemy.
Somehow Israel made peace with Jordan and Egypt. Netanyahu knows a two state solution is inevitable, but he probably does not want that to be his legacy and he's postponing it as long as possible in order to maneuver Israel into the best bargaining position possible (cram in as many settlements so that it's a fait accomplis by the time his successor actually has to sit down at the table).
Yeah, it's terrible that the majority of Arabs hate Jews, but seriously this notion that such rhetoric is a deal killer is ridiculous. If you wait until all Palestinian political leadership and all the denizens of the West Bank profess to respect Israel and Israelis, you might as well just start a bloodbath now and see which group comes out standing. It's gotta start somewhere. And BTW, plenty of Jewish folks hate Arabs and Muslims. I mean HATE.
I think it is a problem for Obama because he wanted to help broker a deal. He wanted the two state solution to come about as a result of diplomacy. He wants stability and he is ambitious and is obviously a great believer in appealing to reason and compromise. By forcing the issue, the Palestinians are blowing up that process and setting it back. This will force Israel's hand, and will actually unite Israeli society around a common enemy again. In a situation like this, each party wants to come to the table as though it was his idea.
The Israel lobby is so powerful in the U.S. that no one who wants a political future would agree with what Palestine wants through the U.N. The President supports Palestine's desire for an independent state, but onlythrough negotiations with Israel. If Obama supported Abass' efforts through the U.N. it would be political suicide for Obama.
More people vote in the US besides the Jewish block.
It's not just the Jewish people who make up the "Jewish lobby". Many conservatives, including a large number of fundamentalist Christians are strong supporters of Israel for some complicated religious reasons of their own, as well as a number of anti-Arab/anti-Muslim groups and others. And in the political marketplace since 9/11, no one wants to look "soft on Arabs".
Numbers are also not always what gets leaders and legislators to listen. Strong and loud voices often obtain lots of power far in excess of their actual numbers. Also money talks, and a LOT of money flows to campaigns of folks who are strong in their support of Israel.
Not that we SHOULDN'T support Israel, but there is a difference between support and ignoring provocations like the increasing illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian areas.
Sometimes even a weak and scrawny kid can be a huge bully, when he knows he has a strong, protective big brother who will flatten anyone who goes after him. IMHO Israel, secure in the support of the U.S. and its military, and rich in weaponry supplied by the U.S., has stepped over the bounds into "bullyhood", exacerbating the problem, and is something that the "protective big brother" really should have taken a stance and refused to support.
It's a mess. It's a huge mess. And like a lot of other complex, interwoven problems, trying to untangle who is "right" and who is "wrong" is a very messy business, because all have blood on their hands, and both sides, given half a chance would strangle the other, and sometimes that's how I picture them, two guys, each with their hands on the others' throat, and willing to keep squeezing until they are both dead.
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