Occupy Wall Street PROTESTERS Not Letting Up - Nationwide

[Gregg]

Offered here just for a little different perspective...

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/26/news...=NP1&hpt=hp_t2

Seems like backlash was imminent toward any group claiming to represent 99% of us.

[flowerseverywhere]

[QUOTE=Zoebird;46598
Heck, I would be happy if student loans were able to be managed via bankruptcy. That alone would make me happy. I'm no where near filing for it, but I can imagine that many people are. And if they could get that debt restructured or forgiven, then heck yeah, let it happen.[/QUOTE]

did you see today that Obama has introduced a program to help with student debt? You still have to pay it back but it can now be refinanced to a lower rate and payments can be lower (but I imagine longer). I wish people were more educated about student debt. At least with a house you can live in it. Several nieces and nephews of mine are taking on debt with non specific majors that will not get them employed today. I feel very bad but the parents want them in expensive schools. Very different than studying for a specific profession like pharmacy or medicine where you have a good chance at making a very good living.

the crazy thing about debt is that the large majority of people are in debt by choice. They chose to buy a house, they chose to take school loans, or chose to run up a credit card thinking in the future they could pay it off, not expecting the economy to go crazy. Some people have had illness, or were left by a spouse with kids to raise, or got laid off, lots of reasons not to be able to pay it back. But a rethinking of our attitude towards debt, and just how evil it is would do the world a lot of good. because as we are learning now, you never know.

Despite high unemployment today I stopped at the big grocery store near all the big box stores and the parking lots were full. The big chain bookstore had a ton of cars (library books are free) and the chain restaurants had a waiting line for lunch. You can make a simple lunch for way less than a restaurant serving and probably healthier. Just nuts.

[ApatheticNoMore]

So what? Can be among the 53% paying taxes and still support the thrust of occupy wall street (support specific proposals, well those are rather lacking ). Besides being among the 53% paying tax is all or nothing thing right. It can't possibly be the case that sometimes you pay boatloads of taxes and other times you might even be unemployed and not paying any. No .... that could NEVER happen!

Besides there's this whole belief that occupy wall street wants government hand outs, when I think a lot of it is just about corruption, about money in politics, about if taxpayer money is to be spent on bailouts why is it all going to the banks, etc. Of course, a large part of the problem here is OWS own inability to define their agenda (which I think may be really positive in terms of what they are building - alternative institutions etc., but which will lead to everyone projecting whatever they want on you). So that, yea, it's all about people wanting handouts, that's what it's really about .... etc.

[Spartana]

loans were able to be managed via bankruptcy. That alone would make me happy. I'm no where near filing for it, but I can imagine that many people are. And if they could get that debt restructured or forgiven, then heck yeah, let it happen.

Considering there are close to a TRILLION dollars of outstanding student loan debt - as well as similair amounts for credit card debt and housing debt - I can't see why any bank or govmint financial agency (Freddy, Frannie, VA, dept of education, etc..) should be required to forgive that debt. Restructure...yes. lower interest rates and change terms...yes. But forgive...no. Banks and financial institutions leant that money in good faith and should have a reasonable expection that the money - principal and interest - should be repaid. As private corporations their loyalty should be to their investors (people like you and me who give them our money with the same reasonable expectation of it being repaid with interest). Why should the shareholders be denied their portion of profits? Why should the bank fold and employees lose their jobs because of (forced?) debt forgiveness? Why should small businesses - and big businesses - be unable to borrow for capital improvements and growth (and yes, more jobs) because the bank doesn't get it's investments repaid? To forgive such huge amounts of money just because people "oops" made a mistake when borrowing it (usually based on personal greed IMHO - a bigger house, a better college, a nice car, investment properties, etc...). So I guess it just comes down to the fact that I don't see the financial institutions as the big bad greed machines that other's do. To me they are nothing more then financial clearing houses - I put money in, they lend money out - they take money in, then take money out to repay me -nothing more. If I don't agree with their investment strategies - say they are funding strip mining in Bolivia with child labor or are paying their CEO's exorbitant salaries rather then paying more in dividends to their investors - then I don't give them my money. I go to a non profit credit union. Simple. Now I can think of a million ways (OK a few ;-)!) that could help with all types of debt restructuring and pay off. Most are things that people don't seem willing to do. There is this expectation that if you have a business degree or law degree you will automaticly have a high paying job once you graduate. Back 20 years or so ago, most graduates started in the mail room or as law clerks after college. I have 2 degrees (paid for entirely by my GI Bill which covered it all because I went to a state university and got in-state tuition - and worked), plus 10 years of military service in a technical field that was very useful for my civilian job. But I still started at the bottom - earnoing $21K/year in 1990ish - and grew with the years and promotions. I think new grads need to think about starting small rather than hoping for a govmint or corporate bailout. But restructuring - yeah that's the way to go. If a person can only afford $25/month on their student loans, let them pay $25/month, but don't wipe out that debt. Can you tell I am anti-bankruptcy too :-)? Good for those instances when serious medical bills etc... arise, but otherwise I believe if you borrow money - whether from a bank or Mom and Dad - you should in some way shape or form pay it back.

Editted to add: Just saw that someone posted that the Obama Admin is looking into restructuring student loans (and I also heard they were going to try to do it with Govmint held mortgages even for those who are underwater). So - YAY!! I also wanted to add that, as a bit of a socialist (yeah I know I don't sound that way - cause I'm really a libertarian when it comes to the free market) I do feel we should have much more in corporate taxes and taxes on the wealthy to fund things for ALL people like universal healthcare, education, social security, and the military. And UNLESS corporations can prove that they are creating jobs with their profits, then they should pay taxes. As far as high salaries, well this is a capitalist system and as a private corporation using non-taxpayer fund (pre & post bailout) they should be able to pay whatever they want.

[Spartana]

Here's a little blurb about the proposed student loan restructuring:

"At nearly $1 trillion, federal and private student loans now exceed US credit-card debt, posing a formidable repayment burden for many borrowers at a time of near-double digit unemployment.

The plan, to be implemented by executive authority alone, allows some 1.6 million students to cap their loan payments at 10 percent of their discretionary income starting in 2012. It also forgives the balance of student loans after 20 years of payments. Current law allows students to limit loan payments to 15 percent of income, forgiving debt after 25 years of payments, though few students are aware of this option"

"In a related move, the US Department of Education, which now administers all federal education loans, is giving borrowers the option of consolidating federal and private loans at reduced rates.

“College graduates are entering one of the toughest job markets in recent memory, and we have a way to help them save money by consolidating their debt and capping their loan payments,” said Education Secretary Arne Duncan on a conference call with reporters on Tuesday. “And we can do it at no cost to the taxpayer.”

Even before the official rollout of the program at a rally in Denver, House Republicans challenged how the president could move forward without congressional approval."

[creaker]

Offered here just for a little different perspective...

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/26/news...=NP1&hpt=hp_t2

Seems like backlash was imminent toward any group claiming to represent 99% of us.

I read that - I thought it was interesting on a couple of points - assuming that only the 47% is identifying as the 99%, ignoring that many large corporations don't qualify as the 53% (paying income tax). And that the educational costs for their three kids to the public likely offset anything they've been paying in taxes.

And that people can work their tails off and still not make enough to pay anything substantial in income taxes.

[Zoebird]

I am looking up information on the proposal now.

I've already explained how debt forgiveness is a common practice several times -- between corporations and governments -- and also a part of our normal processes for citizens with bankruptcy courts. It's not a radical or new idea, I promise.

And, I also gave the example of how Saudi Arabia forgave billions of dollars in debt to Iraq and set up methods to help it's common people with debt forgiveness, interest free loans (for homes and marriages), and so on. This happened over the last few months. Saudi Arabia has yet to financially collapse, and I dare say it's in far better shape than Greece.

But aside from that, my point is that *student loan debt isn't special.*

All other forms of debt can be restructured and forgiven via the bankruptcy courts -- except student loans.

---

I've been reading about it at whitehouse.gov -- the new program. it looks decent, but it won't help me. My loans don't qualify.

---

In re: institutions should have a reasonable expectation of reimbursement, I agree.

but the risk is always with the creditor, not the debtor.

additionally, they are using the DEBT as collateral. It's a double-risk for them. When they do that, they make money on the debt because they sell it in bundles.

this can be seen in a couple of different ways -- corruption is one.

Another is that the bank is savvy. they don't have a whole lot of expectation of getting the money back, and so they are selling it in bundles to bring in income on that debt. They can then balance their books and/or show their profit on the debt. and if the debtor pays it back, then "all the better" because they got their up-front profit and their money back and the interest.

To me, that's a double dip.

Which is why i feel that it should be a part of the bankruptcy court, and i'm looking up the history to figure out WHY it isn't. (i want to know the theory).

[catherine]

....but otherwise I believe if you borrow money - whether from a bank or Mom and Dad - you should in some way shape or form pay it back.

I agree with Spartana's whole post, but I would have taken up too much space if I had quoted it all.

I've been dumped on to the tune of over 100k in debt, and I've done some "stupid tax" to the tune of another 100k in debt and I am crawling my way through the debt snowball. I'll probably wind up living off of Social Security as a result when I retire (at 70), but I made my bed and now I have to lie in it.

My revenge on the Big Banks is to never support them again with loan interest.

[JaneV2.0]

I would expect a wave of monies being transferred to credit unions or community banks. Is this happening?

[Zoebird]

look, i agree in principle that it should be paid back.

but, i also look at the economic and social logic behind debt forgiveness -- something that happens all the time.

i am paying back my student loans, so it's not like i'm just trying to get out of paying it back, etc. I just think it's part of the inequality of the whole system. Banks and corporations can have massive debt forgiveness, governments can have massive debt forgiveness, and debt forgiveness exists for bankruptcy for everything BUT student loans.

why that?

and why is it that whenever someone brings up the benefits of debt forgiveness (particularly in an economic situation like the one we are in currently) it is taken as this person being immoral, or not wanting to pay back their debt, or whatever?

honestly, i have always faithfully paid back my bills, and I currently faithfully pay my student loan payment every single month, and i'm saving to pay it off in one lump sum (since it's a debt collection agency, and not a bank, so they can do different and weird things).

And, we currently don't take out any consumer debt nor did we start a mortgage and we do not plan on getting a mortgage when we are ready to buy a house (we plan to pay cash for it -- we are currently NOT saving for that, as we are saving up the lump sum to pay the student loan).

Seriously, I *get* debt. But I also *get* how debt forgiveness works and WHY it is beneficial socially and economically. I don't get why other people can't see that. When it's pretty common practice. It's a huge part of what happens in bankruptcy court!