Occupy Movement and Tahir Square

[Zoebird]

Pepper Spray Toxicity (Scientific American blog)

[creaker]

I read the other day that Michael Moore is comparing the Occupy Movement at Davis to Tiananmen Square. I'm sorry, but without a better organization and some clear goals, this whole thing seems a little juvenile and self absorbed to me.

I give it down twinkles.

I'd like to see the folks in Washington come up with better organization and some clear goals. And they seem a more than a little juvenile and self absorbed as well.

I think it's really a catch-22. If OWS was more structured like that they would just be co-opted by more established groups.

[Zoebird]

I wouldn't compare it to Tianamen Square, for certain.

and I agree, breaker.

[bae]

Pepper Spray Toxicity (Scientific American blog)

I've been zapped with the stuff half a dozen times in training, and spray it on my popcorn.

Like any substance, I suspect over-use will have issues. Perhaps arranging one's life so as not to be continually sprayed with tear gas or pepper spray would be prudent.

[loosechickens]

well, the Tea Party protesters started out without a whole lot of coherence, or goals other than "government is the problem", in the same way that the Occupy Wall Street folks have not a lot of coherence, other than "Wall Street and the top 1% who have bought our government are the problem".

What gave the Tea Party coherence was the influx of literally billions of dollars worth of advertising by coverage and support by Fox News and the rightwing blogosphere, as well as such spokesmen as Rush Limbaugh. That, with the astro-turfed addition of the Koch Brothers and other extremely wealthy rightwingers underwriting the costs of gatherings, etc., lifted them into more coherence, a tighter message, and got rid of some of the lunatic fringe waving pictures of the President dressed as an African witch doctor with a bone through his nose.

Perhaps if some powerful voices and money on the left steps up and gives the same kind of help, assistance with huge amounts of money and lots and lots of good publicity, Occupy Wall Street will become more coherent and organized as well.

It remains to be seen. As the corporate media seems more interested in seeking out the oddest of odd balls in the group, and ignoring the numbers of respectable, working and retired people who are also there. (We have friends at Occupy Wall Street who have been there for weeks, educated, financially secure retired professionals, and they've never been interviewed, spoken to by newspeople or photographed, even though they have tried to position themselves to be heard. The media has been far more interested in photographing oddballs, or folks with ****amamie ideas of free everything, which is nowhere near what the mass of people participating or sympathetic to the Occupy Wall Street movement are like).

We'll have to see. The pepper spraying of college students sitting on a sidewalk has sobered some, and we may find that the excesses of our increasingly militarized police forces in riot gear, will sober many average citizens and make them pay more attention to what is going on.

And, as I've said before, the genuine Tea Partiers and the genuine Occupy Wall Street folks have a whole lot more in common than they have differences. One may believe government to be the problem and the other believe that an unholy alliance between large corporations, banking and the wealthiest of Americans to bring us the "best government money can buy......for the richest among us", is the problem......in reality they are affected by the same forces, have slipped in the same ways from a secure middle class, and if they ever make common cause, we may actually get our government back.....you know, the one that started with......We the People........

I'm not holding my breath, though......the powerful and their media interests are doing a wonderful job of demonizing each group to the other, so...................................

[peggy]

I read the other day that Michael Moore is comparing the Occupy Movement at Davis to Tiananmen Square. I'm sorry, but without a better organization and some clear goals, this whole thing seems a little juvenile and self absorbed to me.

I give it down twinkles.

Yea, it's so much better if you're packing heat, isn't it. That way people really know you're serious. Gee, I wonder what would happen if the police were to pepper spray tea baggers? I'm guessing full 'lamestream' coverage with a continuous expose from Fox news.

[Yossarian]

And, as I've said before, the genuine Tea Partiers and the genuine Occupy Wall Street folks have a whole lot more in common than they have differences.

I think you are wrong on this. It's like saying Grover Norquist and Bernie Sanders have a lot in common because they are both focused on taxes. There is a schism in the American zeitgeist. Hard decisions have to be made and there are two very divergent solutions presented to the current political impasse. But mutually wanting to change the status quo doesn't make the two groups simpatico. Au contraire, they are antithetical.

[Alan]

Yea, it's so much better if you're packing heat, isn't it. That way people really know you're serious. Gee, I wonder what would happen if the police were to pepper spray tea baggers? I'm guessing full 'lamestream' coverage with a continuous expose from Fox news.

Don't be silly. Tea Party members get permits for their gatherings, which includes renting porta-potties, putting up insurance bonds to cover any damages that may be incurred and pay the localities for the cost of police coverage of the event, then they spend an afternoon speaking before cleaning up their refuse and going home. They don't block sidewalks, roads, bridges or access to businesses in violation of local laws or ordinances and then refuse to leave when asked.

I'm guessing that's why they don't get pepper sprayed very often.

[peggy]

Don't be silly. Tea Party members get permits for their gatherings, which includes renting porta-potties, putting up insurance bonds to cover any damages that may be incurred and pay the localities for the cost of police coverage of the event, then they spend an afternoon speaking before cleaning up their refuse and going home. They don't block sidewalks, roads, bridges or access to businesses in violation of local laws or ordinances and then refuse to leave when asked.

I'm guessing that's why they don't get pepper sprayed very often.

no, they just show up at political rallies with f'___n GUNS strapped to their sides! And no one bothers them...Gee, I wonder why?! Don't
try to spin it Alan. We've all seen the videos of them disrupting town hall meetings, shouting down legitimate discussion, carrying signs that display a..well, shall we say, not the brightest grasp of the issues. But it's the gun really isn't it. It's that implied threat of violence that protects them.
so, are you saying that Americans don't have the right to peacefully gather and protest? or maybe it's just liberal Americans (who we know aren't really Americans but America hating commies) who don't have the right to protest. Ahh, the thin hypocritical veneer is rubbed off the tea baggers when they are faced with real grass roots protesters. They don't want freedom of speech, but rather the freedom to promote their own kind of speech.

[Alan]

no, they just show up at political rallies with f'___n GUNS strapped to their sides! And no one bothers them...Gee, I wonder why?! Don't
try to spin it Alan. We've all seen the videos of them disrupting town hall meetings, shouting down legitimate discussion, carrying signs that display a..well, shall we say, not the brightest grasp of the issues. But it's the gun really isn't it. It's that implied threat of violence that protects them.
so, are you saying that Americans don't have the right to peacefully gather and protest? or maybe it's just liberal Americans (who we know aren't really Americans but America hating commies) who don't have the right to protest. Ahh, the thin hypocritical veneer is rubbed off the tea baggers when they are faced with real grass roots protesters. They don't want freedom of speech, but rather the freedom to promote their own kind of speech.

I think you're confused. Freedom of speech doesn't include the right to disrupt the lives and livelihoods of others, nor does it usurp local laws. Good try though.