Action vs talk - George Carlin on the anti-abortion movement

[rosebud]

If a fetus survives an abortion, is it a baby?

Only 1.5 percent of abortions in the US are performed after 21 weeks. There is zero viability outside the womb prior to 21 weeks, so really, this is not an issue that comes up and if it does come up, it is usually in the context of the mother's life being in danger or some fatal defect in the fetus. So, your question doesn't deal with the real world.

[Alan]

Only 1.5 percent of abortions in the US are performed after 21 weeks. There is zero viability outside the womb prior to 21 weeks, so really, this is not an issue that comes up and if it does come up, it is usually in the context of the mother's life being in danger or some fatal defect in the fetus. So, your question doesn't deal with the real world.

That doesn't answer the basis of the question. If you declare that a fetus is not a baby, at what point does it become one? Is it a baby at 21 weeks, 22 weeks, at successful full term birth?

I understand that it's important to get the terminology right when discussing this subject since any indication that an aborted fetus is an actual person harms the "pro choice" movement, so, I'm trying to understand when that change actually takes place. If it's at viability, let's say 21 weeks, does it make a difference if it's 20 weeks and 4 days when the mother decides to abort?

My conservative nature forces me to always err on the side of caution. That's what makes me suspicious of all loaded terms and convenient absolute truths.

[Gregg]

If you declare that a fetus is not a baby, at what point does it become one? Is it a baby at 21 weeks, 22 weeks, at successful full term birth?

I've always felt that an abortion is between a woman and whatever God she prays to. In a perfect world the father/sperm donor, depending on your point of view, would also be part of deciding what to do. Abortion would never have been considered as an option in our home because privately we both believe life is possible without a fully conscious realization of the world. Like you Alan I always prefer to err on the side of caution, but that is also where our roads diverge. My pro-choice stance should in no way be construed as approval, but at the same time I am simply not qualified to make such decisions for anyone else.

The few female friends I have that chose abortion at some point in their lives without fail feel remorse and regret. That may not compare to what their fetus' endured, but it is nonetheless a very high price to pay for their decision. I can't even tell you what that means, but somehow I know that any choice that carries such a weight is beyond what I have capability to decide for anyone else.

[peggy]

Alan, I don't think you really understand the nature of abortion. In the vast majority of cases, the fetus is aborted through a tub a little larger than a straw. There is no viability there. This fetus would not survive outside the womb at any time. Just wouldn't happen.
The one or two bizarre cases aside, women do not wait until the 7th month to 'just abort' cause they don't want it. This just doesn't happen. I know the anti-choice people will find the one case, and then probably distort the truth of it to fit their agenda, but the vast vast majority of cases just aren't like this. Most are in the first couple of months. Do late abortions happen? Sure. But a real examination of the case will probably show that it was a case of dead fetuses, mothers life in very real risk, or a fetus laking a brain, for instance. Yes, that actually happens, and it is an extremely sad, soul wrenching time for the parents. People don't carry a baby that far just to 'get tired' of it. It doesn't happen. Nurses and doctors aren't killing babies and just keeping quiet about it. Do not believe the rhetoric. An IUD is an abortion. The pill is an abortion. A miscarriage is an abortion. This is a woman's life. You have absolutely no credibility, or say in it.

You keep talking about, railing against a personal mandate to buy into the national insurance pool, yet why can't you see this as a personal, the most personal mandate, to support, with your very health at risk, and carry a zygote until it becomes a person. It isn't even a person for many many months. And on top of that you don't even want to pay for the health care of the host-body in this religious mandate.

[Alan]

..... but somehow I know that any choice that carries such a weight is beyond what I have capability to decide for anyone else.

And yet, that choice is made for babies every day. If we define it as a matter of choice, I choose to advocate for the unborn.

[Alan]

Alan, I don't think you really understand the nature of abortion. In the vast majority of cases, the fetus is aborted through a tub a little larger than a straw. There is no viability there. This fetus would not survive outside the womb at any time. Just wouldn't happen.
The one or two bizarre cases aside, women do not wait until the 7th month to 'just abort' cause they don't want it. This just doesn't happen. I know the anti-choice people will find the one case, and then probably distort the truth of it to fit their agenda, but the vast vast majority of cases just aren't like this. Most are in the first couple of months. Do late abortions happen? Sure. But a real examination of the case will probably show that it was a case of dead fetuses, mothers life in very real risk, or a fetus laking a brain, for instance. Yes, that actually happens, and it is an extremely sad, soul wrenching time for the parents. People don't carry a baby that far just to 'get tired' of it. It doesn't happen. Nurses and doctors aren't killing babies and just keeping quiet about it. Do not believe the rhetoric. An IUD is an abortion. The pill is an abortion. A miscarriage is an abortion. This is a woman's life. You have absolutely no credibility, or say in it.

You keep talking about, railing against a personal mandate to buy into the national insurance pool, yet why can't you see this as a personal, the most personal mandate, to support, with your very health at risk, and carry a zygote until it becomes a person. It isn't even a person for many many months. And on top of that you don't even want to pay for the health care of the host-body in this religious mandate.

So, if you don't accept the heartfelt opinions of others your preferred recourse is to question the motives or sincerity of the holder? You could do better if you wanted.

As a parent and grandparent, I believe strongly in my responsibility to place my offspring's interests above my own, whether they're considered human (by other's standards) or not. I simply can't do otherwise.

[JaneV2.0]

My understanding is that the majority of abortions are performed in the embryonic or early fetal stages well before neural development occurs. The idea that termination procedures are commonly performed on human tissue that's even recognizable as fetal, let alone that there's a "silent scream" involved is mostly promulgated by anti-choice advocates. But the more successful their efforts are, the fewer clinics exist, the more likely desperate women will require later-term procedures.

I agree with those who say it's all about control of women's sexuality. Many anti-choice people rail against any and all birth control and extra-marital sex as well. I'm inclined to think they descended from witch burners, but perhaps that's a bit harsh.

[rosebud]

And yet, that choice is made for babies every day. If we define it as a matter of choice, I choose to advocate for the unborn.

I have no problem with someone using moral persausion to try to convince women not to terminate their pregnancies. I do have a problem with eliminating safe legal abortion as an option for women. I have a problem with harrassing women and their doctors and patronizing women and putting undue burdens on them I will continue to advocate for women.

You ask me when a fetus becomes a baby and I say there is no bright line that will satisfy everyone other than actual birth at a viable stage. Asking me about a live birth in the context of an abortion is not a serious question and you know it. I could ask you what if an 11 year old mentally ill girl is raped by her father and has a medical condition that would kill her if she did not abort and the pregnancy was caught within a minute so that the fetus was only a day old and it was known that the child would be born with severe and painful deformities. Is abortion ok in that situation?

I will ask you this: Is a fertilized egg a baby? A human being?

[Alan]

I will ask you this: Is a fertilized egg a baby? A human being?

I'm not sure. You said a fetus is not a baby. Was that simply the language of pro choice? It's not a baby until I decide it is?
I couldn't possibly speak with that degree of certainty, although I'm pretty sure a baby exists within the time frame of legal abortion. That's why it's important to me to err on the side of life and dispute self-serving rhetoric.

Asking me about a live birth in the context of an abortion is not a serious question and you know it.

Sure it is. Even though our medical professionals are very good at what they do, baby's still occasionally survive abortions. Then Senator Barack Obama thought it was problematic enough to sponsor legislation forbidding medical care to those who do survive while serving in the Illinois legislature. He was serious about it, wasn't he?

[rosebud]

[QUOTE=alan;63866]I'm not sure. You said a fetus is not a baby. Was that simply the language of pro choice? It's not a baby until I decide it is?
I couldn't possibly speak with that degree of certainty, although I'm pretty sure a baby exists within the time frame of legal abortion. That's why it's important to me to err on the side of life and dispute self-serving rhetoric.K


Sure it is. Even though our medical professionals are very good at what they do, baby's still occasionally survive abortions. Then Senator Barack Obama thought it was problematic enough to sponsor legislation forbidding medical care to those who do survive while serving in the Illinois legislature. He was serious about it, wasn't he?[/

First I am quite sure that more girls and women have been harmed by forced continuation of dangerous pregnancies than than there are babies born in the aftermath of botched abortions. Certainly more women die in childbirth than die as a result of complications following legal abortions. And we know for sure that women will risk their own lives to terminate unwanted pregnancies when abortion is illegal and a significant number of them die So you can continue to focus on the tiny tiny number of babies who survive abortions if you like but I'll take the utilitarian approach and focus on the much much larger number of girls and women who get hurt when safe legal abortion is not an available option.

I agree that the more a fetus developes the murkier the line becomes and the more difficult it becomes to balance the interests. But there is a distnction between the potential for human life and human life. We know for sure that a woman is a human being. And there is no other situation in which you would advocate the violation of a person's liberty and bodily integrity. You don't even think people should be forced to pay taxes. You 're saying you have more rights to your property than women have to their own self determination. In the balance of interests, you don't think you should be forced to pay any amount of money to save the life of another person but a woman must be forced to essentially save the life of another person by sacrificing her body to the task of incubation. I don't understand why your property rights are more valuable and sacrosanct than a woman's privacy rights and rights to her own body. Ultimately it always has to be the woman's decision. Not your decision.

Smooth move squishing more anti Obama propaganda into the conversation. I know these charges have been debunked time and time again so I'm not going to bother to respond. Another day another canard...