here we go again...

[Zoebird]

On birth control:

I'm an advocate for using fertility awareness method (FAM) and barrier methods. But, that combination fails a lot of people on account of their inability to stick with it. LOL

Second to this, I recommend sterilization.

Why? Because these are less likely to mess with the endocrine system and lead to better health overall and in the long term.

But, I do see good reason to use the pill and related chemical forms -- for both medicinal purposes and for birth control purposes.

And I have no problem with my insurance paying for that, if it pays for drugs for all of my other friend's preventable what nots (such as poor eating habits that lead to indigestion that leads to prescription medications).

With regards to abortion, I consider it an absolute last resort, best used only when medically necessary, which may include having an abortion due to rape/incest if the pregnancy will further harm the mother psychologically in the process (which is the primary argument along this, not so much the argument that the child is innocent and the mother is innocent and so on).

But, I also know that people see things differently, and I"m happy with Roe and Casey -- how they allow for freedom of choice, while also balancing the needs of the children (who are at some point, citizens of the state with rights and protections).

[Zoebird]

Convos on this forum dissolve into nothing most of the time because the topic goes in a thousand directions. The fact that some here think killing is fine and life has no value shows why our society and world is in the condition it is. Life has no meaning to those who think like that. It has no value. A baby is as important as a pig, to them. Nothing matters. And it shows when we pick up the paper or turn on the news......welcome to the world where anything goes.

No one yet has stated "life has no value." It is absurd to assert so.

Likewise, I do not see "this is why our world is the way it is. . ." I see a pretty decent world overall, with lots of good people living happy lives, doing their best, and doing good for each other. Is that the world that you mean?

[Gregg]

"They" can pay the fiddler IMHO. I think that if we make men more responsible and bear a greater burden for unplanned pregnancies, then maybe they would be more careful when it comes to their sexual activity. And I'm not just talking about a life long financial burden to provide for a child, I'm talking physical caregiving responsibilty too. I think that would go a long way prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Absolutely! I might question the wisdom of automatically having both parents involved with caregiving as a blanket statement, but could not agree more that male responsibility should extend well beyond the current sperm donor status. It would not be hard to argue that the concept is one of the major stumbling blocks in our current society. Again, no sense of personal responsibility and no consequences for countless men has, IMO, played a major roll in getting us to where we are today.

And if us girls don't get to play, then the boys don't either :-)!! An equal opportunity asprin for all!! That'll give the guys at the top an incentive to make contraceptiives available to all :-)!

The abstinence thing was just a way to get conversation going because it will never happen on a large scale and who would want to be part of that anyway? But still you have a point. Making sure both people are protected in some way reduces the risk of pregnancy well beyond what simply having one covered does. Like it or not the practical truth is that the responsibility to check is probably best left in female hands most of the time. You girls are in control, the rest of us are just beggars. If single women, and even married women where appropriate, demand condom use in conjunction with your preferred contraceptive measure unwanted pregnancies AND STD infection rates would drop to almost nothing. It will probably take a generation or more for the guys to catch on and consider that the new normal. Be patient with us and it could work. Question is, since most kids already have a basic education in contraception, how do we get the usage up to that level? (Hint: I bet the answer has something to do with more education and easier access.)

[Spartana]

I might question the wisdom of automatically having both parents involved with caregiving as a blanket statement

Oh honey... I'm wasn't thinking of "sharing" custody, I was thinking the guy gets full custody for life ;-)! Knowing that they may become a full time single parent for 18 years with minimal financial support or caregiving help from their sex partner during that time (what generally happens to females) might just cause a few men to pause before having unprotected sex! Especially with someone they aren't in a committed long term relationship with.


[/QUOTE] Be patient with us and it could work. [/QUOTE]

I do always wonder why discussions about birth control never seem to involve the male half of the equation. It seems that both men AND most women just take it for granted that it's the woman's responsibility to handle the birth control. Uh...nope! To me, it's a two party party :-)!

[JaneV2.0]

"I do always wonder why discussions about birth control never seem to involve the male half of the equation. It seems that both men AND most women just take it for granted that it's the woman's responsibility to handle the birth control. Uh...nope! To me, it's a two party party :-)! "

It's all about control, shaming, and punishment. Of the woman. Doonesbury has it all going on lately:http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress...ntroversy1.jpg

And it's lovely if men want to assume some responsibility for birth control, but I always took complete and final responsibility for my fertility, and I would never trust anyone else to care as much as I did about preventing a pregnancy.

[flowerseverywhere]

A narrow definition of killing I just don't get. It's curious that while death penalties are carried out and wars rage on access to abortion (not saying anyone has to have one) is such a hot issue.

I hate the ugly wars we are involved in and there have been so many civilians killed and displaced. We have numerous cases of wrongful death penalties-a curious delineation between what type of human behavior we find good and acceptable

[bae]

With regards to abortion, I consider it an absolute last resort, best used only when medically necessary, which may include having an abortion due to rape/incest if the pregnancy will further harm the mother psychologically in the process (which is the primary argument along this, not so much the argument that the child is innocent and the mother is innocent and so on).

Indeed. But once you open that door, and conclude that the mother may have competing interests that outweigh the interests of the child, then you should proceed to look at the whole range of impacts to the mother, and then it's not so black-and-white :-)

[Spartana]

[QUOTE=JaneV2.0;72534
And it's lovely if men want to assume some responsibility for birth control, but I always took complete and final responsibility for my fertility, and I would never trust anyone else to care as much as I did about preventing a pregnancy.[/QUOTE]

True - but I'm of the equal responsibilty clan so would be insistent that they also practice birth control if needed. I wasn't able to have kids myself so it was never an issue, but if I had to use birth control that I wasn't 100% sure were 100% effective 100% of the time, I'd require the use of condoms also. If he wasn't willing, then I wouldn't have sex - and neither would he - at least not with me :-)!

read my post on the Family Board for yet another take on why people (guys) should use birth control unless they want to have a child in their life - possibly full time.

[bae]

read my post on the Family Board for yet another take on why people (guys) should use birth control unless they want to have a child in their life - possibly full time.

Very true. You'd think any man with any sense at all would refrain from possibly-productive intercourse unless he *knew* he was protected. Child support for those one-night-stands can get pretty pricey over the decades...

[Zoebird]

Indeed. But once you open that door, and conclude that the mother may have competing interests that outweigh the interests of the child, then you should proceed to look at the whole range of impacts to the mother, and then it's not so black-and-white :-)

Precisely so.

And what makes it even more complex -- which is what makes it difficult under law -- is that there's no one agreement on how this aligns, and so the law has to be broad enough to protect the interests of both parties!

Truly, a very complex issue indeed.