The Trayvon Martin incident

[CathyA]

I'm really surprised no one has brought this up yet. I wasn't quite sure where to post this.
Maybe people are afraid to voice their opinions?
There's so much that isn't known about what really happened. Its been in the media that its a cut-and-dried murder, but the more I hear about it, the more confusing it becomes.
I have learned that there's very little I can say about non-whites, so I'm not sure what all I can say here without getting flamed.
I'm having a hard time understanding all these protests and marches being held when we don't have all the facts yet.
I tend to agree with Geraldo Rivera in that wearing a hoodie can get you into trouble, because its the garb of alot of young black criminals.
I also agree that Zimmerman shouldn't have gone after him with a gun.

Its interesting that the picture chosen for the media was of an innocent looking young boy, but not of some of his more recent poses where his pants are half-way down and he's giving the finger.

There's just so much conflicting information coming in. But I am concerned about the violence that may come from this. Even if everything is handled properly and Zimmerman is found innocent (if only because of the "Stand your Ground" law), there will be so much rioting. The new black panthers have put out a bounty on Zimmerman's head. There have also been flyers distributed "Wanted Dead or Alive".
And another thing that concerns me is that no one seems to get upset with the black-on-black violence in their communities. Recently, in the city close to here, a 16 year old back youth shot 5 other young black youths. Where's the outrage there? Where's the protesting there? Seems the only ones concerned are a few of the black ministers (who try to do alot to help the black youths).
I'd like to have a conversation about this case in Florida, hopefully without people calling me a racist.
Any opinions about it? Or is this something everyone wants to avoid?

[mtnlaurel]

Another aspect that we need to touch on is the specific law that keeps Zimmerman from being arrested "The Stand Your Ground" law.

To me that is the crux of the issue, more so than the colors of skin.

(And I am all for justified armed self-defense. But chasing a kid down is not 'standing your ground'.)

And hoodies -- all color kids get flack for wearing them. When I lived in an area that there literally were no people other than whites-- when you read the local police blotter -- suspect 'wearing hoodie'.

It's definitely touched a nerve beyond this specific incident.
I watched a segment with a younger black reporter with the Washington Post - when his family moved to urban Newark after being in rural NJ his parents went to great pains to teach him how to get along in the 'real world'
The rules he was given:
1) Don't run in public
2) Don't run with anything in your hands in public
3) Don't EVER get fresh with the police if confronted (which he said should be universal, but his parents said esp. for him)

I have only kept up with the periphery of this story.

There are also pictures of me flipping birds in my teen years on record -- thank goodness it was before social media.

I don't know how we'll ever get the real facts of that afternoon/evening.

[bae]

My plan is to wait on facts, not media speculation and social media yammering.

I think we have processes for that. If I recall, they often involve trials, and juries.

[Stella]

I don't watch the news so I don't know anything about this, but I'm surprised at the comments about hoodies. Pretty much everyone I know owns a hoodie. My 64 year old, ethnically Jewish, upper-middle class dad owns a hoodie. He got it from the Catholic seminary where he attends catechetical training classes. My little blond toddlers have hoodies. I see my two next-door neighbors (both named Johnson, actually) out walking their dogs in their hoodies all the time. One is a 60-something white actuary. The other is a 40-something black buyer for Whole Foods. I think his hoodie is actually from his kid's university (University of Wisconsin). It wouldn't occur to me that a hoodie was a dangerous thing to wear or would get you pegged as a gangster.

[Stella]

There are also pictures of me flipping birds in my teen years on record -- thank goodness it was before social media.

Every picture we have of my 55 year old aunt is of her flipping the bird. Every. Single. Picture. That's going to make for a fun 80th birthday photo montage someday...

[loosechickens]

Well, I suspect that a lot of the outrage has to do with the fact that a young teenager, doing nothing wrong, being in a place he had every right to be, ended up dead. As the facts emerge (IF they are ever able to emerge, since the Sanford Police department saw fit to test the dead victim for drugs and alcohol, but allowed the shooter to depart, with his gun, wearing the clothes he was wearing, and untested for any drugs and alcohol, which might have enabled the fact finders to ascertain such things as how close he was to the victim when he shot, from gunpower residue, etc., and completely destroyed any ability to ascertain stuff from the crime scene, as they did not secure it, either), we may know more.

But, until that time, all we have to go on is a self appointed neighborhood watch guy, who was known for, shall we say, overzealous cop wannabe behavior over the past year, and armed with a 9mm handgun, for his own reasons (racism?, stereotyping? who knows?) thought that this young teenager, who was minding his own business, in a place he had every right to be, was someone who should have been confronted (against the advice of the police dispatcher), and when that confrontation was over, one person, the unarmed person minding his own business was dead, and the other allowed to simply walk away from the scene.

Every black parent in this country knows that could have been THEIR son. Most black people have had ample opportunity to experience being the object of someone's stereotyped reactions, whether it be a storeowner who follows them around in the store, police who stop and frisk them because the car they were driving "looked to expensive for them to own", and even if educated, wearing a suit and tie, or anything else, have been humiliated, endangered and singled out for scrutiny not experienced by other groups.

Much the same thing happens to Hispanic folks here in the southwest, where there are fewer blacks, but just as much racial prejudice.

The idea that because he was wearing a hoodie, which HUGE numbers of people wear, means that somehow he DESERVED to be confronted, is as ridiculous as any teenaged girl in a short skirt or revealing blouse deserves to be a target of a rapist.

I think people here want to shy away from this subject, because they know it will be ugly. And just as when you started the thread about being upset because "those people" (not your ethnic or racial group) were having TV channels catering to them, you're probably going to get some pushback from this one.

Maybe you just haven't walked in their shoes, have limited ability to put yourself in their place, or just don't understand, but every black person in this country knows that they, or their kids are endangered by men like George Zimmerman. It hits a chord that goes far deeper than this particular incident, or the poor policing that happened afterward, with many people, not just black people, or members of other minorities. But with anyone who understands how inner prejudices often affect outer actions.

And it SHOULD upset gun rights advocates....because a clearer example of misuse of the intent of the "stand your ground" law could hardly be found. That law is intended to help out someone who is confronted in the middle of the night by an intruder in their home and fears for their life, not a wannabe cop, on his self appointed rounds, going out of his way to confront someone, who ends up dead. This case is likely to affect "stand your ground" laws, which would be a shame, because it was clearly anything BUT that.

There is public outrage, because something happened that we SHOULD be outraged about. A young person, doing nothing wrong, paid with his life. As to why THIS particular case? I suspect it is because Trayvon Martin's parents are educated, articulate, able to marshall support from media and people, and because this young man was NOT a criminal, not a juvenile delinquent, had never been in trouble with the law, and was simply minding his own business, going home from the store, and frightened that some strange man was following him. Please remember that Trayvon Martin had every right to be exactly where he was, doing what he was doing....it was George Zimmerman, who because of inner prejudices, or perhaps only over zealousness in his self appointed role, who grossly overstepped, and happened to be the one person in that confrontation with the means to kill someone.

That said, it is why I think people are so upset, and all these marches are going on. For myself, I'd be willing to simply wait, as bae says, for the legal stuff to sort itself out. Until there WAS an outcry, it seems pretty cut and dried that not much investigation was done by the Sanford Police, who have a poor record in these kinds of things, but now that state and Federal people are doing the investigation, other than so much evidence having been destroyed or ignored until it was no longer possible to gather it, we will, eventually have some answers.

But to expect black folks, who have seen this particular sad story play itself out over and over and over, perhaps expecting them to be that patient might be asking too much.

[catherine]

LooseChickens:
Very well said!

Plus, why the heck didn't Zimmerman obey the 911 dispatcher who told him to back off and wait for the police?

[Mrs-M]

Originally posted by CathyA.
The new black panthers have put out a bounty on Zimmerman's head. There have also been flyers distributed "Wanted Dead or Alive".

GOOD! My husband and I watched 60 Minutes, last night, and they reviewed the case thus far. I have absolutely nothing positive to say about the case (or the law). God bless the Martin family.

[CathyA]

I'm just glad I don't have to sift through the "facts". Sure wish they'd had camera footage they could look at. Now Zimmerman's lawyer is saying that the Martin boy was beating him up and going for his gun. Someone is also saying that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.
I'm just saying that this is a very complex, interesting case. And watching both sides is interesting.
The problem with ordinary people carrying a gun is that they aren't trained like police officers are. If Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, there probably wouldn't have been a problem, other than maybe a fist-d-cuffs.
Loosechickens..........where did I say "those people"??
And I have a couple hoodies myself, for pete's sake. Do I wear the hood in warm weather so you can't see my face? No. Its become a young black man's "garb" and it gets associated with crime.

I'm not making any judgements until the facts are in. I'm just asking questions about both Trayvon and Zimmerman.

Can't I try to make sense of things without people thinking I'm bigoted? Doesn't that make you bigoted by pigeon-holing me, based solely on my asking questions? (I guess this is mostly directed at LC).
The Sanford police department screwed up. Zimmerman screwed up. But I'm questioning if he actually just walked up and shot Trayvon, or if he was attacked by him and then Zimmerman shot at that point in self defense.
Nobody wins here. But its definite.........Zimmerman shouldn't have pursued. He no doubt regrets it now!
And as I asked before.........where is the outrage when young blacks shoot/kill other young blacks, for no good reason? Like I said, we had this horrible thing happen here recently and I do wish both the black and white communities would show more outrage about these crimes too.

[loosechickens]

I am certainly not the one saying that hoodies have become "young black man" garb, (except to people like Zimmerman, perhaps, as that idea would come as a surprise to most of us, since a large percentage of peoole wear them. You are saying that, perhaps because you hold that view, which was apparently shared by Zimmerman. Perhaps you are having difficulty understanding just as you had difficulty understanding why other groups had tv stations that catered to them. Both those things come from seeing an "other", which does make it difficult to understand. And of course black people are just as upset about black on black violence. It is just that it is harder to get the media or some law enforcement involved, unless the victims are white, or white people are involved.

Honestly, I think we would all do best to wait for this case to be investigated and what evidence is left to be examined. Because right now it is more of an ink blot test of racial attitudes in this country than anything else.